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[The Technomancer]

You just called me out. I was all ready to agree with most, if not all, of the posts here by saying that I can't understand how anybody would get upset about the sex of the game character they played. However your point made me realize that while I have absolutely no problem playing a woman during asexual gameplay, I don't want to roleplay a woman doing feminine actions like romancing a man. That would most likely be a, pardon the pun, gamebreaker for me if a game forced it.

So I have to admit that at some level I have to be able to view myself as the character I play. Jumping, swinging a sword, shooting a gun and so on are all actions I can inherit any character and perform as that character. Flirting with or kissing a man are simply actions I would never perform. As a result I can't relate to any character who would do those actions so I'd rather not play them.

What about all of the women who play games, where kissing a female is the only option? Should they be disgusted, and refuse to play them?

I wouldn't go too hard in on him, this sort of conversation can actually be really helpful. One of my favorite film critics recommended straight men watch Taxi Zum Klo, which is a very explicitly man-man gay film, and it was the sort of thing that forced me to confront and try to move past my instinctual...I don't know if disinterest is the right word, and certainly not disgust, but the sort of squirmy reaction a lot of men have to that sort of thing. I think things like that, and this, are things we can actively try to improve about ourselves

 

[Megatron]

I find Nathan Drake very easy to relate to while murdering hundreds of people because like me, he is a straight, white male. When Laura Croft is doing the same thing, I just can't relate to it at all, because she is a woman.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I never understood this way of thinking. I was a RPG gamer all my life. I don't care if I'm a dude, woman, boy, girl, an animal, an alien, a....thing, whatever. Playing someone... something different makes the whole experience even more interesting.

exactly

RPG gamers are used to playing as pretty much any/everything

white guy here, had a party in FFVII consisting of a magic doll ridden by a cat, a talking lionwolf, and a 17 year old ninja girl

 

[MazeHaze]

Why is it our business if she does refuse it?

It's not, but if a woman refused to play any game where you can romance another woman, rpgs would be slim pickings.

To me, refusal to engage in a game with a female protag who romances men seems super sexist and double-standardized, and also is an endorsement of the fact that games should be for straight males only.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

I prefer playing as a female character, always have. I guess it just makes a nice change from reality.

 

[chillybright]

It's related to gamergate because that community is of the opinion that games are only for white males.

Equating dislike of a character for being a murderer to dislike of a character for being a female is a pretty fucked up world-view.

You ignored my other example.

People have preference. As long as they don't force their preference onto others I don't see the problem. It is you, who call other people's preference "a fucked up world-view", are doing exactly that.

 

[EventHorizon]

What about all of the women who play games, where kissing a female is the only option? Should they be disgusted, and refuse to play them?

Sure. I'm no hypocrite on this. If women are disgusted by being forced to kiss another woman in a game they should speak out too. Games are for enjoyment. We pay for them. If they aren't fun, then why would we buy them?

 

[Alcotholic]

If the game gives me a choice, I will often pick a dude. If not, then whatever. In regards to games with linear narratives, I'd prefer to have a diverse cast of characters. More often than not, it ends up being a more interesting story.

 

[nkarafo]

I don't get, what's wrong with someone not liking a game because he/she can't relate to a character? I also don't like the idea of playing as a teenage girl. I just don't find such a character compelling enough, especially since this is a game that focuses to heavily on storytelling.

What's wrong with that?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I don't get, what's wrong with someone not liking a game because he/she can't relate to a character? I also don't like the idea of playing as a teenage girl. I just don't find such a character compelling enough, especially since this is a game that focuses to heavily on storytelling.

What's wrong with that?

What modern video game characters do you relate to?

 

[Clinton514]

It's not, but if a woman refused to play any game where you can romance another woman, rpgs would be slim pickings.

To me, refusal to engage in a game with a female protag who romances men seems super sexist and double-standardized, and also is an endorsement of the fact that games should be for straight males only.

I see. I understand what you're saying. I do like that the conversation is being engaged. Yes it is a double standard at that point.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't think I ever really project myself onto a character, games aren't really fantasies for me, power or otherwise, but it is interesting that I played both Pillars of Eternity and have started playing Tyranny this year, and I rolled a male character for Pillars and a woman for Tyranny.

They're very mechanically similar games on the surface, and yet for Pillars I think I made a male character because the game felt like it was asking for a bit more of a blank slate and maybe I wanted to make a slate like me. Whereas in Tyranny I felt like I was taking part in authoring a character, and chose to make them woman.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I don't get, what's wrong with someone not liking a game because he/she can't relate to a character? I also don't like the idea of playing as a teenage girl. I just don't find such a character compelling enough, especially since this is a game that focuses to heavily on storytelling.

What's wrong with that?

Why does something as trivial as gender need to match for you to relate to somebody? Do you think women experience grief, loss, anger, joy, etc. different from men?

 

[RPGam3r]

Lets see if I can throw out an example that is a different spin.

I can't stand GTA V due to its "unrelatable" characters, or at least 2/3 of them. Michael and Trevor are "unrelatable" aholes (putting it nicely) imo. I don't want to empathize with them. The only relatable character to me was Franklin.

Again, I think its ok to say you can't relate to something. Being civil and just saying "guess this isn't for me" is ok.

Note I get there is a large difference between gender/race/etc and being GTA level aholes, I'm not saying my example is perfect or 1:1.

 

[Davide]

I find Nathan Drake very easy to relate to while murdering hundreds of people because like me, he is a straight, white male. When Laura Croft is doing the same thing, I just can't relate to it at all, because she is a woman.

As much as Nathan can be mocked as a mass murderer or whatever, as a 20 year old male I do find myself relating to Drake a lot more in Uncharted 4 than Laura Croft in Tomb Raider.

That's not a complaint about female leads or Tomb Raider or whatever and I still enjoy playing both, that's just how I feel playing both games.

Obviously it helps that Drake is a modern day kind of normal guy trying to be an Indiana Jones. I don't find myself relating to John Marston in RDR.

 

[grimmiq]

Unless it's a first person game where I never see my character, I don't put myself into the mindset of "The protagonist is me". I don't really get the inability to relate to female characters if it's still a compelling story/world.

 

[Eusis]

I feel like I can reasonably relate to most characters of either gender unless they're really nuts or just poorly written. Is it really that hard, at least to the level to accept playing as them in a game?

 

[Veelk]

I don't get, what's wrong with someone not liking a game because he/she can't relate to a character? I also don't like the idea of playing as a teenage girl. I just don't find such a character compelling enough, especially since this is a game that focuses to heavily on storytelling.

What's wrong with that?

You don't know the character. You know the gender and age. You're presuming that you have nothing in common with them just based on those things. That's the problem.

Lets see if I can throw out an example that is a different spin.

I can't stand GTA V due to its "unrelatable" characters, or at least 2/3 of them. Michael and Trevor are "unrelatable" aholes (putting it nicely) imo. I don't want to empathize with them. The only relatable character to me was Franklin.

Again, I think its ok to say you can't relate to something. Being civil and just saying "guess this isn't for me" is ok.

Of course you can. But here's the difference. You're saying you can't relate to Michael and Trevor because their assholes. You're basing your judgement on their personality. Other people are saying they can't relate because of gender. That's a vastly different judgement.

 

[MazeHaze]

You ignored my other example.

People have preference. As long as they don't force their preference onto others I don't see the problem. It is you, who call other people's preference "a fucked up world-view", are doing exactly that.

You're other example, if a girl refuses to play as male characters that is silly too.

But it's not a 1:1 translation. If, when given the option, they pick females, no problem.

Do they also refuse to play any game where a male is the main character? Because if so, there were only like 2 games this year they could have played.

 

[Twilight Princess]

Closet gater and mra.

 

[Servbot24]

Because the majority of them are by design, self inserts for the player. Who's usually presumed to be straight, white, and male.

Inserting myself into the game via a character just seems weird to me. I feel part of a game through good controls. Not because I forget that I'm me and start thinking I'm actually a robot or a cowboy or whatever.

 

[tcrunch]

Guys who can't empathize with women probably don't think of women as their equals/as human beings. If you realize that a woman is a person who can feel and think all the same things you do, and that there is no special "woman-ness" preventing her from being just like you, then it is easy to place yourself in her shoes.

Also true for people that complain about non-whites in leading roles of movies (or games even).

 

[BigDes]

What I always find weird is that empathy for some people is apparently an on/off switch and not a naturally occurring thing.

 

[EatinOlives]

If you can't relate to a video game character because you're not the same gender I think that's a bigger statement about you rather than the game.

 

[MazeHaze]

I see. I understand what you're saying. I do like that the conversation is being engaged. Yes it is a double standard at that point.

Good! I'm glad the convo is being engaged too! Glad to see there are people who are open-minded and glad to rethink their prior opinions, even a little bit.

 

[nkarafo]

What modern video game characters do you relate to?

Usually the ones who don't talk. And mostly adults because i find kids a little annoying.

Why does something as trivial as gender need to match for you to relate to somebody? Do you think women experience grief, loss, anger, joy, etc. different from men?

I think i mostly don't like the age, not the genre. A story focused game with a teenage girl (or boy) as the protagonist doesn't sound interesting to me. But if it was a game that has a more subtle character and storytelling (Like Limbo/INSIDE) i wouldn't care, doesn't make a difference if those characters are young/old/girl/boy.

You don't know the character. You know the gender and age. You're presuming that you have nothing in common with them just based on those things. That's the problem.

I know it's a story driven game that relies too much on cutscenes, melodrama, takes itself too seriously, etc. In games like this i prefer adult characters.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

1. Excepting sociopaths, you can relate to almost anything (and even then, there are exceptions)

A couple of points. First, I think the issue of empathy is a great thing to discuss on a broad level regarding gaming protagonists However, this point about sociopathy kind of torpedoes the Ellie issue right away since she seems to be completely deranged. That's not something I think is necessarily supposed to be someone we're intended to "empathize" with. I also think the need to "relate" to a character is something that's often overblown. There has rarely ever been a character that has my life circumstances, or even looks that I can "relate to." I'd much rather have compelling stories of every kind, regardless of how analogous their situation is to my mine.

Second, I don't think the complaints about Ellie were necessarily all that people were making them out to be earlier in the thread. Yes, there was a lot of stupidity and close-mindedness, for sure. However, teenagers are often very, very, very annoying (if not insufferable), characters within video games. Hell, within a lot of media, movies and TV shows included. Middle-aged, gruff, violent dude may be a more boring route, but I can understand a preference for that out of concern for having a grating teenage presence instead. Personally, I'd rather developers and writers try something bold and new, but I understand that writing in this industry hasn't exactly done a lot at times to give cause for benefit of the doubt.

That said, I don't see anything to really fear from Ellie. Naughty Dog hasn't given me a huge reason to doubt them in terms of writing her yet. I'm very interested in mentally broken Ellie.

 

[RPGam3r]

Of course you can. But here's the difference. You're saying you can't relate to Michael and Trevor because their assholes. You're basing your judgement on their personality. Other people are saying they can't relate because of gender. That's a vastly different judgement.

I edited so this wouldn't be the easy way to avoid talking about how some people are different and not being able relate doesn't make you a monster as long as your tone and approach is civil.

 

[EventHorizon]

I wouldn't go too hard in on him, this sort of conversation can actually be really helpful. One of my favorite film critics recommended straight men watch Taxi Zum Klo, which is a very explicitly man-man gay film, and it was the sort of thing that forced me to confront and try to move past my instinctual...I don't know if disinterest is the right word, and certainly not disgust, but the sort of squirmy reaction a lot of men have to that sort of thing. I think things like that, and this, are things we can actively try to improve about ourselves

Thanks for the support. However I have to wonder what is the point of trying to get over man-man gay films? That is simply not a point of view that interests me. If someone didn't like watching porn, or Transformer movies would you also suggest that they "improve" themselves by forcing themselves to watch them too?

 

[psyfi]

I don't get, what's wrong with someone not liking a game because he/she can't relate to a character? I also don't like the idea of playing as a teenage girl. I just don't find such a character compelling enough, especially since this is a game that focuses to heavily on storytelling.

What's wrong with that?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by compelling?

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

There's a huge gulf between emapthisizing with a character and wanting to play as one. I choose to play as males when I can for the same reason I played with male action figures when I was a kid. I wanted to be that guy, I wanted to put myself in his shoes. When I'm playing an rpg for example, I'm not into female aesthetic upgrades because I'm a guy and I want to look like a badass dude, therefore I choose slick over sexy.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Inserting myself into the game via a character just seems weird to me. I feel part of a game through good controls. Not because I forget that I'm me and start thinking I'm actually a robot or a cowboy or whatever.

That's you specifically but so many aspects of a game's design are meant to help the viewer self insert themselves. From camera placement to character design itself.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Usually the ones who don't talk. And mostly adults because i find kids a little annoying.



I think i mostly don't like the age, not the genre. A story focused game with a teenage girl (or boy) as the protagonist doesn't sound interesting to me. But if it was a game that has a more subtle character and storytelling (Like Limbo/INSIDE) i wouldn't care, doesn't make a difference if those characters are young/old/girl/boy.



I know it's a story driven game that relies too much on cutscenes, melodrama, takes itself too seriously, etc. In games like this i prefer adult characters.

So then what the hell was the point of your post in a thread that relates to gender differences in narrative based games? Or are you just backtracking?

 

[The Technomancer]

Thanks for the support. However I have to wonder what is the point of trying to get over man-man gay films? That is simply not a point of view that interests me. If someone didn't like watching porn, or Transformer movies would you also suggest that they "improve" themselves by forcing themselves to watch them too?

In this case because of how political that sort of thing still is I'm actually quite glad I did it. The "icky" factor can shape a lot of how we talk about and regard gay men without even realizing it

 

[Veelk]

A couple of points. First, I think the issue of empathy is a great thing to discuss on a broad level regarding gaming protagonists However, this point about sociopathy kind of torpedoes the Ellie issue right away since she seems to be completely deranged. That's not something I think is necessarily supposed to be someone we're intended to "empathize" with.

I think you misunderstood. I meant "Unless you are a sociopath". On the contrary, a sociopath is very easy to relate to because they are often superficially charming since they mimic personable characteristics very well. And even otherwise, our ability to empathize is inhibited by lack of responsiveness, but not eliminated. But sociopaths themselves, by definition, have problems empathizing with other people. That's what I meant.

Second, I don't think the complaints about Ellie were necessarily all that people were making them out to be earlier in the thread. Yes, there was a lot of stupidity and close-mindedness, for sure. However, teenagers are often very, very, very annoying (if not insufferable), characters within video games. Hell, within a lot of media, movies and TV shows included. Middle-aged, gruff, violent dude may be a more boring route, but I can understand a preference for that out of concern for having a grating teenage presence instead. Personally, I'd rather developers and writers try something bold and new, but I understand that writing in this industry hasn't exactly done a lot at times to give cause for benefit of the doubt.

Well, that may be, but the person in my quotes wasn't saying he has a preference for Joel out of convience for stereotypical characteristics. His issues were what the topic was made for, reliability and empathy.

 

[MazeHaze]

Thanks for the support. However I have to wonder what is the point of trying to get over man-man gay films? That is simply not a point of view that interests me. If someone didn't like watching porn, or Transformer movies would you also suggest that they "improve" themselves by forcing themselves to watch them too?

Why would you equate a film about a relationship between 2 males to gay porn and transformers?


I see no relation there, except they seem to be things you view as being objectively "bad"

 

[nkarafo]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by compelling?

I don't have high standards, i just want a character that doesn't annoy me or make me cringe. All kids in cutscene-story-dialog-driven videogames are annoying to me.

 

[ByWatterson]

EDIT: Oops, double post. Sorry.

 

[MazeHaze]

I don't have high standards, i just want a character that doesn't annoy me or make me cringe. All kids in cutscene-story-dialog-driven videogames are annoying to me.

Did Ellie annoy you in Tlou?

 

[BigDes]

A couple of points. First, I think the issue of empathy is a great thing to discuss on a broad level regarding gaming protagonists However, this point about sociopathy kind of torpedoes the Ellie issue right away since she seems to be completely deranged. That's not something I think is necessarily supposed to be someone we're intended to "empathize" with. I also think the need to "relate" to a character is something that's often overblown. There has rarely ever been a character that has my life circumstances, or even looks that I can "relate to." I'd much rather have compelling stories of every kind, regardless of how analogous their situation is to my mine.

I think you misread what OP meant there. THey didn't mean we can empathize with everyone except sociopaths, they meant that sociopaths can't empathize with others.

Also Ellie is clearly not a sociopath, this is proved by her actions in the first game. She may however be having a psychotic break in this game, but that is not something that is impossible to empathize with.

People being pushed to their limit and then breaking is actually one of the easier things to empathize with.

 

[Kindekuma]

I have no real understanding why people want self insertion in (certain) games. Narrative more specifically. I get it for MMOs but other genres I don't quite get it.

You read books, watch movies and TV shows from perspectives of people that are different from you. So why is playing a game as a girl character such a big issue compared to other mediums? In my opinion it's just projecting insecurities with your own being.

I'll happily play a game with any kind of character. Man, woman, blob thing, ball of smoke, who cares. I'm excited for TLOU2, especially playing from Ellie'a perspective after the events of the first game. Kick ass during the Winter season and I want more of that.

 

[nkarafo]

So then what the hell was the point of your post in a thread that relates to gender differences in narrative based games? Or are you just backtracking?

I thought the point was about a teenage girl in a videogame as the main character, i thought the "teenage" part also played a role, not just the "girl" part. Sorry if i was off topic, i didn't watch the other thread.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

You don't have to relate to a character to enjoy a game. I made a thread about that this year: if I find a character attractive, or if I think the character is interesting, or intelligent, or simply looks cool, etc, I'd be able to enjoy a game no matter how awful it's the gameplay of said game. Fortunately for me I'm quite open when it comes to liking a character: I don't care if a character is black, a woman, Asian, a boy, etc; in fact, a white 30+ years old male is probably the most boring option right now since all those characters look pretty much the same. As long as a game has nice characters I can play pretty much whatever and enjoy it a lot, but I think it's not necessary to feel empathy towards those characters.

 

[Octavia]

I'll never understand the need to "relate" to a character.

I can't relate to Geralt, I can't relate to Max Caulfield, I can't relate to Jensen, yet I still find them all to be great characters that I care about.

Is it some sort of odd "self-insertion" thing?

I don't think it's self insertion so much as it's just plain not interesting to follow a story with a character who's unlikable.

See, I'm not a teenage girl, but I can relate to Max in your example because she's pretty straightedge and a goody two-shoes. The actions the game was taking because of her personality was more inline with something I can accept.

Then you've got Geralt (Witcher 2 mostly, but some W3), who like you, I also can't relate too. I got annoyed with him because a lot of his motivations have to do with sticking a sausage in a bun repeatedly, and that's honestly a really flimsy motivation for me. I stop caring about the story because I'm not interested in fulfilling his raging hormone's desires.

But related to the OP, gender/sex/age/whatever barriers don't hinder my enjoyment. A characters feelings/actions/motivations do. I'll happily play as a green space lizard that talks in clicks as long as they have some solid morals and thought patterns I can align with. Otherwise, don't bother characterising, I'm not going to be interested and at most I'm there for the gameplay.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I think you misread what OP meant there. THey didn't mean we can empathize with everyone except sociopaths, they meant that sociopaths can't empathize with others.

Fair enough, misread it.

Also Ellie is clearly not a sociopath, this is proved by her actions in the first game. She may however be having a psychotic break in this game, but that is not something that is impossible to empathize with.

People being pushed to their limit and then breaking is actually one of the easier things to empathize with.

That trailer clearly has shown her as mentally deranged.

I don't think that's a clip that a lot of people are going to look at and go "Oh, poor Ellie." I thought it was frightening, I thought she seemed like a monster. We're not talking about your average "mental snap" that people can understand or "relate" to their lives. We're talking about a character that snapped so bad that it appears she turned into a monstrous murderer akin to (if not worse than) Joel. I'm interested in diving into that story, but not remotely for the sake of reliability or empathy.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

I have no real understanding why people want self insertion in (certain) games. Narrative more specifically. I get it for MMOs but other genres I don't quite get it.

You read books, watch movies and TV shows from perspectives of people that are different from you. So why is playing a game as a girl character such a big issue compared to other mediums? In my opinion it's just projecting insecurities with your own being.

I'll happily play a game with any kind of character. Man, woman, blob thing, ball of smoke, who cares.

When you're making choices and playing as a character, it's quite different (to me) than reading a book or watching a movie about a character. Many games are fantasy driven, and I choose to play out that fantasy as a character that feels like an extension of myself

 

[Paracelsus]

I have no real understanding why people want self insertion in (certain) games. Narrative more specifically. I get it for MMOs but other genres I don't quite get it.

You read books, watch movies and TV shows from perspectives of people that are different from you. So why is playing a game as a girl character such a big issue compared to other mediums? In my opinion it's just projecting insecurities with your own being.

I'll happily play a game with any kind of character. Man, woman, blob thing, ball of smoke, who cares.

Ironically, if there's one place where I do not do that, it's games with a character creator, because I'm a fan of canon storylines, so whatever I do in the end means f

Spoiler

uck

-all in the bigger picture, and that's why I never play asshole-MainCharacter in games that allow it, like Mass Effect, because it's just there for show. Even in games like The Witcher, I just go with what was the original storyline whether it was from the novels or whatever, watch all events that are canon in the sequels, and ignore the rest, because "what-if" never really interested me, ever. I'm that jaded, I guess.

 

[chillybright]

You're other example, if a girl refuses to play as male characters that is silly too.

But it's not a 1:1 translation. If, when given the option, they pick females, no problem.

Do they also refuse to play any game where a male is the main character? Because if so, there were only like 2 games this year they could have played.

Plenty play MMO RPGs such as wow and their main are usually female elves, a few are female pandaren. One of them also plays Rune factory and Animal Crossing games. And you bet your ass she always chooses female avatar.

I have only played Leagues with some of them and you tell me how irritating I would feel when there is a perfect champion available for our team but they won't play male / non-human champions. But hey it is their fun who am I to judge.

 

[BigDes]

Fair enough, misread it.

That trailer clearly has shown her as mentally deranged.

I don't think that's a clip that a lot of people are going to look at and go "Oh, poor Ellie." I thought it was frightening, I thought she seemed like a monster. We're not talking about your average "mental snap" that people can understand or "relate" to their lives. We're talking about a character that snapped so bad that it appears she turned into a monstrous murderer akin to (if not worse than) Joel. I'm interested in diving into that story, but not remotely for the sake of reliability or empathy.

So you have no empathy for people with mental illness? T

his is obviously a bait question btw don't answer it as of course you do.

You have understanding about the concept of revenge?

 

[EventHorizon]

Why would you equate a film about a relationship between 2 males to gay porn and transformers?


I see no relation there, except they seem to be things you view as being objectively "bad"

No relation was intended except to pick movies of different types that someone might not like to see. I chose porn because it would be silly for someone to argue that a woman should watch porn "to get use to it". I chose Transformer movies because I can't stand them, and have no intention of forcing myself to like them.