It's funny how I'm watching the accessibility panel and they just spoke about people not seeing things as making games less hard or seeing it as people with disabilities taking away their games and it dawned on me, yes I'm privileged. Again, these discussions are necessary to be had because it's a learning point for everyone.
Its why the word empathy is important here, empathy to minorities (whom aren't factually), empathy towards women (50% of the world) empathy towards others whom we perhaps maybe cannot relate with directly but can imagine how we would love to be treated if we were them.
The Op has made a powerful topic and I think the moderators should pin it up, it's far more important than people realise
Most of the time, IMO I think it is more the case that some people think, "I don't want to and I'd rather continue being catered to and don't change that" than actually being "I can't relate".
I don't give a damn, I'll play as anything. Plumber, gorilla, big-breasted witch, robot, god, kree, dog, caucasian monster slayer, black samurai, pepsiman, princess, bird, soccer player, girl teenager. Who cares? I feel sorry for whoever, black or white, male or female, is discarding a good game due to race, gender or whatever.
Because one asks you to relate to the character and gives her equal treatment while the other makes her a shallow object to be oogled and fapped to. Too many men prefer to think with the head in between their legs instead of the one on their shoulders.
Strawman picture, as in that list only a game with a male and a game with a male skeleton are the story-driven ones, rest is arcade stuff where it doesn't matter who you are at all as there is no plot, no immersion, no "art". Seaman is a tamagotchi-on-crack simulator, and the voice of his rants is from Nimoy.
@Paracelsus I was trying to streamline the argument, but i guess I failed. A picture is not worth a 1000 words all the time >_< Having to relate to the protagonist is absolutely not necessary, and even if you ignore my extreme examples, and are now focusing on Story/Plot/Narrative, the best answer to that would be Jedi2016's comment for more nuance:
I especially love Jedi2016's Mario comment >_< though, but I believe the Joel & Shepard lines are valid here.
My personal opinion is that what we at least partially feel/perceive before we even start with empathy is the actual range of freedom to express ourselves via input to the game, not in superficial skin tones, fur, or gender, but the meaning induced by the unique player from the events surrounding the protagonist, from Pacman's escape from ghosts or just pressing the right trigger to end a boss or not to press the trigger in Metal Gear Solid V, questioning WHY we are shooting, not just what we are shooting, and that requires a human feature, which is self-introspection. Yes, empathy needs to be tackled as personal preference, for the sake of this thread to be honest.
Many players feel games like Mass Effect lack that one dialogue option to portray their most honest action, but still move on within the bounds of the situation handed to them. Of course there is a disconnect with our real identity's real-world response, but I see that as a sacrifice to build a common ground of interaction between you and your tool of expression, your protagonist. Forgive me, but I dare call it a protagonist language, a special connection based on the limitations of expression, maybe we shouldn't even call them limitations in this context.
We deal with this common ground even with your own body, where your arms can't reach an object, so you improvise e.g. ask someone to pass it to you, or you stretch your legs out to get nearer. We ask our friend to get something from the shop, and they don't, we respond accordingly, specific to each person, time, present state and situational context/environment.
The fact of the matter is that we humans are all pieces of art in real life, people watch us every day, as we do paintings, and make assumptions/presumptions, which will be subject to personal taste, and we all take something different out of the same game we play, which should be treasured by all of us. No one but you knows what it is like to be you, and if you were to argue that no one can play you, in some ways you haven't discovered everything about yourself yet.
Many of us cripple our own capabilities of perception by succumbing passively to mental models set for us, because it doesn't challenge us the way we want to be challenged a certain way, and I get it, we can also set the limitations too. Now consider this, would you call this a limitation too?
Woman or "Racial" let's be honest, skin tan changes, are superficial concerns and distractions, unimportant to what should be our primary concern in any narrative, and that is the principles, ideals, values, new ideas, culture, and new worlds, forms of expression and fun. Every woman is unique, as is every man is presumed unique, assuming they have a personality to portray, a character lacking indifference towards their auteur's intended role or feedback to their player's I/O.
To have a good female lead means a rethink of work flow, best to have female producers and such. There is no point of having a female skin like EA did with mass effect and fifa, then some players cheering their political bravery.
We have to understand male and female are fundamentally different, its not stereotype
And just maybe many females are just less invested in action movies and games?
I don't see why we should be speaking on behalf of female gamers as someone said earlier.
I don't give a damn, I'll play as anything. Plumber, gorilla, big-breasted witch, robot, god, kree, dog, caucasian monster slayer, black samurai, pepsiman, princess, bird, soccer player, girl teenager. Who cares? I feel sorry for whoever, black or white, male or female, is discarding a good game due to race, gender or whatever.
Hint: it's always white dudes who are doing this because the protag is female/black/etc. Women and minorities don't actually refuse to play games for this reason because if they did, they'd have nothing to play.
Empathy has nothing to do with resemblance. It's a matter of emotional recognition. Truth be told, it's our emotions that are universal and that's what drives how we receive these experiences.
I remember reading all the reception TLoU initially got a few years ago. The threads were full of posters saying things like "I played the prologue and had to go kiss my sleeping daughter on the forehead." or "It hit be hard being a father," etc.I
I don't have any kids and that beginning still made me cry. Truth is, I don't need to see myself or find a way to make something about myself in order to be emotionally impacted by it.
1) trying to turn this into "it is women's fault"
2) ignoring the experience of all the women posting
WHO COULD HAVE GUESSED THAT THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ?
how many times we have to say that asking for more diverse protagonists does not means we can only relate to our own kind ... I have a "vampire white skin" and I would love to see more black, east asian and other types of protagonists that look nothing like me that are NOT cis hetero white slim able bodied dude.
1) trying to turn this into "it is women's fault"
2) ignoring the experience of all the women posting
WHO COULD HAVE GUESSED THAT THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ?
how many times we have to say that asking for more diverse protagonists does not means we can only relate to our own kind ... I have a "vampire white skin" and I would love to see more black, east asian and other types of protagonists that look nothing like me that are NOT cis hetero white slim able bodied dude.
Why is that minorities and women don't seem to have an issue playing as a white male all the time, but white males find it damn near impossible to play as a character that isn't them?
I never get the idea of people saying "who cares, a good game is a good game". We have people on gaf who complain about fucking aliasing in games and refuse to play them. Suddenly you ask for diversity and it's, "why does this matter", "it'll fix itself", "those people should get into the industry and fix those problems".
Not only is it transparent, it's so opposite to visiting an enthusiast gaming website.
The whole thing makes no sense. The average person shares so little in common with any video game character they play as. That's half the fun, imo.
To me it really does come off as insecurity in a person's sense of self when they can't embrace a different perspective briefly. I can't say that's exactly the issue but it does come to mind.
Besides those quotes are completely alien to me because Ellie is so likeable and brave and admirable. To me she's of the best characters of all time. I love the idea of playing as her.
I never get the idea of people saying "who cares, a good game is a good game". We have people on gaf who complain about fucking aliasing in games and refuse to play them. Suddenly you ask for diversity and it's, "why does this matter", "it'll fix itself", "those people should get into the industry and fix those problems".
Not only is it transparent, it's so opposite to visiting an enthusiast gaming website.
This drives me insane as well. It's perfectly acceptable to refuse to play a game because it doesn't run at 60 fps, but refusing to play a game because it treats women or black people or what have you like shit is "overreacting". Unbelievable.
This is the most immature attitude anyone can have.
I'm tempted to even say statements like those in the OP would usually mean the person would have to have bigoted and discriminatory tendencies but I won't make such sweeping generalisations .
I'll just be nice and stick with immaturity as being the primary reason and hope that person can broaden their horizons through future experiences and human interactions outside of their comfort zone.
Besides gaming needing more diverse characters in the same stuff, there are some stories that can only be told with a diverse protagonist.... so doing the same stuff would create normality and then people would feel it is ok to explode those themes uniques to minorities ...
...or you do like Kojima and explore themes of maternity and motherhood without a single cis woman or trans man =|
I don't think it is necessarily wrong to prefer playing as a guy if you are a guy or a lady if you are a lady, especially when playing a game with character creator such as various Bioware RPGs or Dark Souls/Bloodborne or Division... though, I always play as a lady in these games, hahaha.
To actively avoiding a game because the presence of a leading character that is a different sex/race/whatever than you tho... that's weird and unhealthy.
I don't think it is necessarily wrong to prefer playing as a guy if you are a guy or a lady if you are a lady, especially when playing a game with character creator such as various Bioware RPGs or Dark Souls/Bloodborne or Division... though, I always play as a lady in these games, hahaha.
Which reminds me, this thread is one of the main reasons why I will ALWAYS prefer locking the player to a woman/black/LGBT instead of allowing character creation tools.
I don't want people to avoid playing as girl link, I want then to do it in a way that influences the story, in a way the ones who can't relate CANNOT ESCAPE MWUAUUAUAU !!
"We shall always tend to consider people's distress objectively that is, to place ourselves, with our own wants and sensibilities, in their conditions, and then to examine what occasions we should find in them for experiencing happiness or unhappiness. This method of looking at things, which seems objective because it ignores the variations in subjective sensibility, is, of course, the most subjective possible, since it puts ones own mental states in the place of any others, unknown though they may be."
I don't think it is necessarily wrong to prefer playing as a guy if you are a guy or a lady if you are a lady, especially when playing a game with character creator such as various Bioware RPGs or Dark Souls/Bloodborne or Division... though, I always play as a lady in these games, hahaha.
To actively avoiding a game because the presence of a leading character that is a different sex/race/whatever than you tho... that's weird and unhealthy.
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with having a simple preference, but I wish the people who see these things as dealbreakers would take a second to think about what people who don't have the benefit of being represented as the default think.
I remember when I bought Demon's Souls, my first character was a black woman. This was because I'd been playing Uncharted and Infamous, so I wanted a protagonist that looked as different as possible from those guys. I didn't really think much of it.
But that was a more innocent time. In 2016, I'll be wondering if I'm subconsciously sexist and racist if I don't make a black female character, lol
Besides gaming needing more diverse characters in the same stuff, there are some stories that can only be told with a diverse protagonist.... so doing the same stuff would create normality and then people would feel it is ok to explode those themes uniques to minorities ...
...or you do like Kojima and explore themes of maternity and motherhood without a single cis woman or trans man =|
Maybe I should have added more to my post. I want different protagonists AND better writing! Hopefully one leads to another when publishers take risks. Also when did Kojima do that?
And he plays ad let's say Solid Snake
Who is a badass
But in reality white male gamer is not a bad ass and the only similarity is both white males. Personality and situations are completely different.
The only time it matters where you want to relate to someone is silent characters or characters that give you dialog options like Mass Effect. That's when i think it matters a bit on the appearance of the character.
Considering for 95% of my gaming life I've had to play as a male character, I have little sympathy for those who say they cannot play as a teenage girl. It's a little sad how excited I got when I was younger to be able to play as a girl.
Relating to a character has nothing to do with gender. I could emphasize with Joel, though I am not a father who has lost a child. A good character is a good character, regardless of gender.
Here's an interesting thought, I guess... Make of it what you will...
I play lots of Street Fighter IV online, I do constantly end up in Endless Battles with three different USFIV players online with "Tranny". "Trans" "T-Girl" words being part of their PSN handle.. Two of these are actually on my friend's list. I played with them a lot, in fact hours of Endless battles in one sitting. none of these three players ever use a male character in the game. They main a female character and when they get bored they rotate through all the other female characters... Chun Li, Juri and Poison being the most popular ones, Makoto and Ibuki the least.
I swear I never see them pick one male character, but man are they good with most of the females. I guess it's an image thing? I donno, am I an asshole to notice, roll my eyes and question this?
Yeah, but Solid Snake is kind of a power fantasy for men. Like a lot of characters. Men want to be the witty supersoldier who saves the world and gets the girl. This is why so many people turned on Raiden.
Being an angst-ridden, murderous teenage girl is not a power fantasy for most men, I'd wager, heh. But I think it'll still be relatable on a general human level, at least for me.
Relating to a character has nothing to do with gender. I could emphasize with Joel, though I am not a father who has lost a child. A good character is a good character, regardless of gender.
Maybe I should have added more to my post. I want different protagonists AND better writing! Hopefully one leads to another when publishers take risks. Also when did Kojima do that?
Sidenote: It's a shame that The Walking Dead: Michonne wasn't better. Literally the only game I can think of with a straight female lead who is also a woman of color.
I'm a gay 30-something white male. I recall an industry that, 30 years ago, was not nearly as reliant on white males to sell games. I loved a lot of those games. For me, gaming has been an opportunity to suspend my own personal beliefs about the way the world is from my perspective.
Unlike several other white males in gaming, I do not feel uncomfortable playing as something I don't/can't identify with. I rather welcome it.
But, on the other hand, I personally do not seek out diversity in games because I feel a need to be represented; it's nice, but I don't find it personally necessary. I seek out diversity primarily because I'm BORED. So much of the same experiences being re-told through slightly different lenses just outright bores the shit out of me. Perhaps not a noble reason to want diversity in games, but for those who do want to feel like they want to be represented better, it nets them a positive result just as much as it does for me, so I don't feel guilty about it.
And not just gender/race/sexuality diversity, but I also seek a diversity in cultural undertones, perspectives and viewpoints.
I think, even if we had games with male protagonists, such a game would be vastly different being written and produced by women than by men, and that alone helps a great deal.
Likewise, I'd like to see game production expand to places that have a different cultural understanding of the world, like South America, Africa, etc.
And sometimes, when I get these diverse experiences, I can't "relate" to them. But I don't have to, I just have to understand them, and that process of understanding can be incredibly exciting or profound for me.
That, in my opinion, is the crux of this issue with empathy: learning something new about the world doesn't excite or interest the kind of people who say they "can't relate". Of course they can't, but they also have no desire to learn how to understand, either.
Empathy is something you afford to real people - not playable game characters. For your game characters, you can reasonably to expect to play as characters you can more easily identify with.
Just my opinion. I'm also a 40 year old male and I personally enjoy all types of games as I can easily just ignore the character's age, gender etc. and just enjoy the gameplay.
Why is that minorities and women don't seem to have an issue playing as a white male all the time, but white males find it damn near impossible to play as a character that isn't them?
Yea, I don't get the attitude of needing to be of the same race, gender, or sexuality of a character.
I'm not Jewish. I wasn't alive in the late 30s/early 40s. I'm not female. Yet, I can empathize with Anne Franks plight.
I'm not gay, but I can empathize with Alan Turing and what he went through.
I'm not black, but I can empathize with slaves.
I'm not a girl, but I was touched by Life is Strange. Just as well, I'm not gay, but I can relate to Chloe.
I'm not Black, but I enjoy Luke Cage and The Get Down as looks into Urban Life.
Empathy is not the same as understanding though. Empathy all you have to do is try to put yourself in another's shoes. Understanding comes often from going through it. here's the thing. I'm never going to undergo half the things in most fictional stories. I could never truly understand any of the characters. therefore, the argument that you don't play things because you can't relate to the character falls on its face. What you are really doing is saying I don't care to look at the world from any perspective but my own. They take offense to it. Yet, the same type of people will often mock people for taking offense at their offense.
Hint: it's always white dudes who are doing this because the protag is female/black/etc. Women and minorities don't actually refuse to play games for this reason because if they did, they'd have nothing to play.
Why is that minorities and women don't seem to have an issue playing as a white male all the time, but white males find it damn near impossible to play as a character that isn't them?
Not everyone can reasonably expect that at all. As has been pointed out, only a single demographic can go into gaming 'reasonably expecting' to be able to identify that closely with the average game protagonist.
I saw a few posts from earlier in this thread about how guys would be uncomfortable if they were playing a game with a female lead who seeked a male romantic partner. Mainly because they concluded that the game who have scenes of forced attraction to the men and it would be awkward to play that.
Imagine playing Persona 4 and there is a whole dating mechanic where the game pretty much spells out "pick your waifu". Meanwhile you're a girl player who has no interest in it whatsoever but the game still pushes it at you because of assuming the gender of the player. There are numerous scenes of the guys in the party asking which one is the hottest.
Yeah...
I can say first hand that it's awkward, and I just ended up friendzoning all of them. I still beat the game twice because it was really good despite that however.
I've always enjoyed relating to PCs that were different than me usually because I don't usually equate the main PC as me. Gender, skin color, sexuality don't really bother me. Over the top cruel characters like Kratos are difficult because I just don't enjoy that.
Empathy is something you afford to real people - not playable game characters. For your game characters, you can reasonably to expect to play as characters you can more easily identify with.
Just my opinion. I'm also a 40 year old male and I personally enjoy all types of games as I can easily just ignore the character's age, gender etc. and just enjoy the gameplay.
Empathy is often afforded to characters of works of fiction, whether its movies or tv or books. It what makes them effective storytelling devices. Games aren't removed from that relationship, even if its not quite the same level.
Kinda sad we have to do this again going through same shit with Horizon Zero Dawn. I hope studios keep doing until people that feel like this have to start missing out on a lot of amazing games, like this one will be.
You cant write a screaming bald marine shooter story with a teenage schoolgirl. Developer laziness, shitty tastes, primitive self centrism and misogyny/racism rule our hobby. Sad but true.
You cant write a screaming bald marine shooter story with a teenage schoolgirl. Developer laziness, shitty tastes, primitive self centrism and misogyny/racism rule our hobby. Sad but true.
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