Huge Succeeded
Banned
I should've brought my camera, we've found an actual Unicorn lol
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Why is "Bethesda jank" so readily dismissed? It's insufferable
- Thread starter Fahzgoolin
- Start date
Rushersauce
Banned
The defence being "I liked the game". That's no defence at all.
And, hey, it's incredible that I can even defend the game better than people who actually liked the game. F4 had a fantastic atmosphere (glowing sea is an amazing area, although and almost empty one). Valentine is a fun side character and it has an interesting background.
Hey! I bought the game! You can dig through my post history and see that I did and even posted my own screenshots. So I know what I'm talking about.
Well, it's mostly a whole package.
Like take Witcher 3. It has a few dungeons, but there's really no point in dungeon delving until you are on the specific quest that sends you there, while in Bethesda games you can easily stumble over a half dozen between points on some other quest. As much as I loved Witcher 3, exploration was not a compelling factor in it.
Now take Dragon Age Inquisition, which has a bunch of sectioned off maps and MMO-lite quests. Again, barely any reason to explore.
Some have used examples of Far Cry, again, there's really no incentive to explore. You wander in that game you're gonna find like, a treasure chest with 100 credits in it, maybe. There's nothing of note off the beaten path in those games.
The closest other devs get to that combo of exploration and a world that feels easy to get absorbed into are Euro developers on low budgets like Pirahna Bytes.
I'm not saying this as some huge defense of the games, I'm not a big fan of them anymore, but I do give them a shot and for a good 40ish hours at least they scratch an itch very few games do.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
that's why i dont buy their games anymore (well aside of the new Wolfy and DOOM games), TES:Oblivion was my last TES game and i have skipped all FOs so far
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I didn't run into many bugs while playing Fallout 4 so I got to experience that boring, horribly written, broken slug of a game in it's full glory. Yay for me
Please tell me all of the games that do everything Bethesda games do, and do them better. I really want to play them.
Rushersauce
Banned
Dude, you can't just say 'it does what other games don't" and expect me to refute that.
As I asked you, tell me WHAT DOES IT DO first.
Stallion Dan
Member
Because it's not insufferable for many, just an annoyance worth putting up with for the meat of the game.
I'm not asking you refute it. I'm asking you to recommend games that do everything Bethesda games do and does them better. I am very interested in playing them.
Rushersauce
Banned
How dense can you be? WHAT DO THEY DO THAT OTHER GAMES DON'T? I can't see your reasoning behind that! Add some meat to your bone of an "argument".
AuthenticM
Member
Code:
[B]01:24:51 - Most Disappointing Game[/B]
01:27:28 - Rory McIlroy PGA Tour
01:28:58 - Battlefield Hardline
01:30:09 - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood
01:32:04 - Code Name: S.T.E.A.M.
01:32:56 - Star Wars Battlefront
01:36:54 - Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 5
01:40:03 - Evolve
01:42:00 - The Order: 1886
01:43:24 - Call of Duty: Black Ops III
01:45:06 - Mad Max
[B]01:47:27 - Fallout 4 (Jeff bursts at 02:00:13)[/B]
02:20:09 - Batman: Arkham Knight
02:28:04 - Just Cause 3
02:32:05 - Rock Band 4
02:36:54 - Hotline Miami 2
02:38:43 - NBA 2K16
02:44:33 - Toy Soldiers: War Chest
02:49:25 - Final discussionIt is not an argument. I just want some recommendations.
Rushersauce
Banned
That's fine, buddy. But in order for me to do that, I need to know what do they do!
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
moltonasty
Member
Because people feel the positives outweigh the negatives? Seems fairly straightforward.
Barry Burton
Member
That's it in a nutshell.
I actually found New Vegas to be much more glitchy and janky than FO4, at least for me it was. But it's a lot easier for me to forgive it in that game, because of how strong the RPG side of it is.
In the case of Fallout 4, it's a very well-realized world that Bethesda built and just going around exploring it place-to-place was worthwhile to an extent, but at a certain point I need something more. And the "something more" in Fallout 4 just isn't very good. The "stuff that Bethesda does that no one else does" just isn't enough to let all of the jankiness slide.
old manatee
Banned
Fallout 4 was nonstop bugs for me. Definitely the last Bethesda developed game I buy. They should just concentrate on publishing.
I thought you have played them? WTF.
Trickster
Member
I don't dismiss it. However the enjoyment of playing their games far outweigh any negatives resulting from jank or bugs. As a result I tend to not dwell on it too much
Also, if OP experienced all of that in the first 6 hours. Then either I'm very lucky, or you are very unlucky. Don't think I had that many issues in the 70 hours I played FO4.
Also, if OP experienced all of that in the first 6 hours. Then either I'm very lucky, or you are very unlucky. Don't think I had that many issues in the 70 hours I played FO4.
A large, detailed world full of people, each with their own motivations and schedules. A huge amount of lore that is hidden away in thousands upon thousands of texts, some of which contradict each other because they're written in-universe by characters with their own views and, again, motivations. The ability to interact with pretty much anything, and the game remembers that you did that. The ability to kill a shopkeeper, and after a few days their next of kin takes over the business, and really, really doesn't like you. The ability to drop a weapon in the middle of a street, and someone can either bring it back to you thinking you dropped it accidentally, or steal it, depending on their alignment and motivations.
A consistent and believable world. That's what Bethesda games do better than anyone else.
Your turn, Rushersauce.
A consistent and believable world. That's what Bethesda games do better than anyone else.
Your turn, Rushersauce.
Rushersauce
Banned
Jesus, yes. I played them, and that's exactly why I don't get the praise they get (sans Morrowind).
If you could point me what is your view on said games and why you are not able to find them in other games, maybe then, I could understand and recommend you some games that do that and they do it better.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
I got you. My hostility is just because I'm tired of seeing that particular argument, specifically because it comes up verbatim in these threads. I'm not gonna act like nobody ever does what you just said. I've argued more than once with people who do that. but you're painting with a mighty wide brush when you apply that defensive position to fans of Bethesda games in general. Especially as though it's not valid to have enjoyed a game enough based on its collective merits to overlook its flaws. Fallout 4 sucks but the only time I kick back against people who disagree is when they look at the flaws I point out and categorically deny them out of obvious zeal. I don't care if they're dismissed, if you can overlook that shit and have a good time with the game, that's whatever
Well, to put it real short, Bethesda games offer me way more room for genuine roleplaying and headcanon than any other 3D RPG on its scale. And that's in major part due to some of the shit that causes that horrible Bethesda jank - how NPCs work, object persistance, quest structure, etc.
I'm dissatisfied with Bethesda games because they don't go far enough in enabling me to take the reins where roleplaying is concerned. I don't wanna be Army Dad. I wanted to be Alcoholic Baseball Player, down to my core, down to my attributes and decisions. I could have been whatever I wanted in New Vegas.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
This seems to be the norm. I guess I can't get mad at people for being more tolerant of those things, but I find the swathe of game breaking bugs in these games intolerable.
As I have gotten older these things become more and more unforgivable. My time is limited, so when I'm sinking in large amounts of time into this purchase (especially over a year later) I find it incredibly difficult to want to return to it. I feel like it disrespects my time and money.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
Whilst I can recognise the "jank" in their games, I feel it in no way diminishes my enjoyment of them. I played through Oblivion, F3, F:NV, and Skyrim on PS3 and only had the occasional crash, everything else was just minor glitches which if anything is part of their charm. I found F4 and Skyrim remastered played really smoothly on PS4, and my issues with Fallout 4 were mainly from a gameplay standpoint.
I have never come across another game that has made me feel the same way Bethesda games have. Whilst they have their "jank" they still feel very 1 to 1, combat whilst pretty simple feels responsive (compared to the combat in the Witcher 3 (which I still enjoyed)), and I feel the interactivity and scope of the game allows me to be easily immersed despite any minor bugs.
I think if you are a person who can't play the game because of bugs or "jank", it is more of a case of you maybe not enjoying the game as much to begin with (which is fine, people are allowed to enjoy different things). For me any issues kinda just melt away when I am exploring.
I have never come across another game that has made me feel the same way Bethesda games have. Whilst they have their "jank" they still feel very 1 to 1, combat whilst pretty simple feels responsive (compared to the combat in the Witcher 3 (which I still enjoyed)), and I feel the interactivity and scope of the game allows me to be easily immersed despite any minor bugs.
I think if you are a person who can't play the game because of bugs or "jank", it is more of a case of you maybe not enjoying the game as much to begin with (which is fine, people are allowed to enjoy different things). For me any issues kinda just melt away when I am exploring.
Stiler
Member
A lot of it has to do with their inability or rather lack of reasoning for holding on so dearly to the very poor Gamebryo engine, which they still use to this day.
They've been using this engine since bloody morrowind for crying out loud!
They even tried renaming it to the "creation engine" but it's still based on Gamebryo.
The animations and general jank really hurts my enjoyment of these games in the long-run.
The worlds are fun to explore but after spending 50+ hours the little things start to show their teeth and it drags the overall game down.
They are a AAA studio owned by a large company,t here's no good reason they can't move to a much better and updated engine like unreal 4 or something and use mocap for better animation detail.
To me they feel like a developer who can't let go of the past and move on with the times, which is a shame because they do have some talent (especially when it comes to world construction).
If they could just fix the engine/animation quality/writing their games would be so much better.
They've been using this engine since bloody morrowind for crying out loud!
They even tried renaming it to the "creation engine" but it's still based on Gamebryo.
The animations and general jank really hurts my enjoyment of these games in the long-run.
The worlds are fun to explore but after spending 50+ hours the little things start to show their teeth and it drags the overall game down.
They are a AAA studio owned by a large company,t here's no good reason they can't move to a much better and updated engine like unreal 4 or something and use mocap for better animation detail.
To me they feel like a developer who can't let go of the past and move on with the times, which is a shame because they do have some talent (especially when it comes to world construction).
If they could just fix the engine/animation quality/writing their games would be so much better.
onemanasylum
Banned
Bethesda has been getting a pass for years, their games are very overrated and don't play well at all.
Forsaken82
Member
Have never encountered any of the bolded in Skyrim or Fallout 4... So I guess I dismiss it because it's overblown and doesn't affect me?
Let's see... I want to be able to become the leader of an archmage university with a battle axe and no magic. I want to be able to marry a bizarre, humanoid looking creature. I want to kill a vampire as a werewolf and a werewolf as a vampire. I want to kill creatures with a fork. I want to jump off of a mountain on a horse. I want to put a bucket on a merchants head so he can't see me, then loot his entire store then sell it all to his neighbor.
I'm sure I can think of some more stuff if you want?
Huge Succeeded
Banned
Define 'a pass'
SprachBrooks
Member
Elaborate.
SprachBrooks
Member
Their games still sell millions I guess.
John Kowalski
Banned
I like the feeling that i know the game can break at all times and i know how to avoid that stuff or fix it when it happens
Also love Bethesda games in general
Also love Bethesda games in general
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Just listened to the podcast. Brad's argument is that it's entirely possible that the current technology doesn't allow them to prevent the mess of bugs (minor to game breaking). He argues that from a position of ignorance as consumers, we can't possibly demand a better performing game.
I just feel like large open world Ubisoft games, Rockstar games, and CDPR have made games of similar/greater caliber that don't suffer from these problems in the same way.
Agreed. The gameplay has always been poor imo and now the other elements are getting mediocre as well (see Fallout 4)
Constantly buggy, poorly optimized games too. It's just low quality stuff for a AAA dev and they rely too much on the mod community to make their games good.
That's speaking only of Bethesda developed games though. The stuff coming out of the devs under their publishing title can be great, like Doom and Wolfenstein.
None of those games have nearly as complex or varied open worlds...
Vital Tundra
Member
Because people love elder scrolls. People just ignore the faults. Remember when Fallout 4 came out and people were claiming they never ran into any bugs after many hours of playing? Some people are just delusional. Any other developer would be called out so fast, but nah let's not call out the dev that refuses to make a new engine despite the more and more apparent it is that the engine is no longer up to snuff.
Rushersauce
Banned
Object persitance I'll give you that. But, It's known how much of a clusterfuck and shallow quest progression and structure is in Bethesda's newest entries. They are done better in other games like, for example, a Bethesda owned IP which was developed by Obsidian.
Bethesda's quest are simple:
1)Go to NPC
2)accept quest
3)kill/steal something
4)bring it to said NPC
5)???
6)PROFIT!
NPCs work as in any other game (unless you think that Radiant AI was legit, which is something that was debunked years ago). They have scripted paths and tasks. (and they're no pioneers, Gothic did it first)
Random events: Every single RPG have them.
World building: this is one of my biggest gripes with Bethesda games, the world they build makes no sense at all. Just wander trough the commonwealth to see. Raiders encamped right next to super mutants, which are encamped right next to a door that leads to Goodneighbor or some random NPCs.
Atmosphere: Here I applaud them, they really nailed it with both Skyrim and F4. (Still, I hold games like STALKER and Metro games in a higherd regard)
Writing and lore: A game should be consistent in this regard. You can't change the lore and expect people to eat it. They fucked all in F4 (Ghouls DO NEED FOOD AND WATER, and that's just one of the many inconsistencies here).
Quests part deux: Have a team of writers do it, not random staff from diferent areas do it.
Ahh, anything else I missed? I can write more and I may have made a mistake here and there, so feel free to tell.
Ohh, I missed that Euphor!a post. I'll give you the power fantasy side, but jumping of a mountain with a horse, you can do that in almost every RPG with a horse (hell, in the witcher 3 you can make it walk 2 legged going down the mountain). Marry? That's almost a given in any RPG, although, in online ones. And the bucket one? C'mon son... You can't talk about NPCs and life if a single bucket will make you steal all of their goodies.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Thanks, those are interesting comparisons. Something about Bethesda worlds being littered with self-contained chunks of content--rather than TW3's mostly quest-dependent content--seems to be a pretty key difference.
...Skyrim is at least a functional shooter.
Truth be told, Bethesda and CDPR need to be looking squarely at Dragon's Dogma when it comes to how to do open world combat.
uncredited male
Member
I have found that the newer games are less crash-happy than the older ones. I also had a much weaker PC back then so maybe that plays into it.
Slain enemies ragdolling off into space is a feature for me though.
Slain enemies ragdolling off into space is a feature for me though.
Radical Edward
Member
Because Bethesda does open world combat well?
I've always been baffled as to why people like their games. I bought skyrim at launch and really tried to enjoy it. Not even an hour in i had weird shit like Mamoths (or somehting) falling from the sky, NPCs not working, or get stuck in objects. And maybe this isn't a bug, but i watched a battle between a bear and a dragon... the bear won. -_-
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Listening to this again, I forgot how insufferable Austin was in that debate
Vincent Grayson
Member
The thing is, they *have* done better. Fallout 4 was more stable and polished than Skyrim, which was a step up from Fallout 3, and so on.
If anything, Bethesda is steadily improving in combat and stability.
You can argue the gameplay stuff, of course, but I see no measure where their games are not improving on a technical and stability level with each release.
Com Truise
Member
That's not how Bethesda games work though. You can't do anything you want. You can walk around killing lots of shit in samey dungeons or you can do quests for uninteresting NPCs that involves killing shit or you can decorate your place with books and forks and cheese wheels. That's the sad truth about the "freedom" in Bethesda's games, it's all meaningless garbage.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Jank gives a game character.