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[Serenitynow]

Hasn't this been known for a while? Didn't almost every reviewer mention occasional frame rate hiccups? And yet most of them said it wasn't drastic or frequent enough to affect their enjoyment of the game.

It's fine to be disappointed, but lol at people acting as if this game is unplayable or undeserving if its scores.

 

[Dictator93]

Reviewers generally don't dock points for performance. They might dock points if the game is buggy but they don't care about FPS issues that much.

Well, I would have a problem with most review outlets then if that were the case. I find the technical ability for a game to run at a fluid constant framerate (60 and above) to be a core part of the experience which allows me to immerse myself in a game. If the physical and visual connection to the game via controls and animation are marred by inconsistencies or feelings of sluggishness, then I am taken out of that suspension of disbelief which is a core part of playing a game for me.

When you start feeling the controls in your hand in a reflective manner, because they are not functioning (and it is not part of the game's design to confound the player), then the game is failing at being a good game IMO.

I am happy an outlet like DF puts out info like this to inform people who purchase games, as well as those who are just merely curious.

 

[Descapp]

I miss some footage of the villages, that's where the framerate takes the major hit, at least on Wii U.

At least we know they'll keep working on the game since there's two dlc coming, Let's hope they can optimize the game, because right now it looks like a pretty basic port, it should run much better given the hardware differences between the Wii U and the Switch.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Guess we're in for another patch.

 

[Kolx]

They release this shit before a WiiU vs Switch comparison? what is wrong with you?

 

[gregor7777]

If that's how Nintendo's devs are approaching it it's how Nintendo should be selling it. I had dreams of the Switch version being 1080p, 30fps at least. I'm shocked that something they've advertised as the Wii U's replacement, their 'new home console' is barely more powerful than a Wii U. It's crazy to me.

The message needs to change. "It's an amazing portable with a bonus HD out feature."

It isn't barely more powerful. It has a far more powerful GPU and CPU, along with what, 4x the RAM?

You're looking at an open world game designed for the WiiU here as your benchmark. It is understandable, but that's the reality.

 

[icespide]

How did this not lead to lower review scores?

maybe the game is really good?

 

[royox]

10/10 does not mean perfection

T-thats what a teacher told me years ago when I deserved a 10 in an exam :_

 

[Firemind]

Burn it all down. Nintendo doesn't deserve us.

 

[Derkon]

I'm personally glad I decided to hold off on the Switch and just get Zelda on the Wii U. It seems both systems have performance issues, I'd be pretty angry at myself if I dropped $300 plus tax just to have the same issues as the Wii U. Doubly so as it apparently runs better in handheld mode and I'm not really interested in the portable aspect of the Switch.

 

[brandonh83]

10/10 does not mean perfection

Yep. You can feel you had a 10/10 experience even with frame problems. Bloodborne is a 10/10 game for me easily despite its frame pacing, chromatic abberation, etc. It just didn't add up to enough to detract from the glorious experience that was that game.

 

[RoadHazard]

As I've said repeatedly, the Switch is a portable system. Most optimization by devs will be done to make the handheld side the one that plays the best. It's the target spec. The Dock system is elegant, but that's a value add.

Apparently, that's true from Nintendo as well.

Yes, but what we all believed was that optimizing at 720p for the handheld mode would mean that games would more or less "automatically" run the same at 1080p in docked mode. That's what the clock leaks told us. That's not happening, which indicates serious memory bandwidth issues.

 

[Interfectum]

Stop with this poor logic.

If you look at the post history of people specifically mentioning metacritic you'd see it's not as poor as you think.

 

[scitek]

They should test it in Blighttown.

 

[icespide]

T-thats what a teacher told me years ago when I deserved a 10 in an exam :_

exams have objective correct and incorrect outcomes. reviewing games is subjective

games aren't school tests

 

[RootCause]

For devs and other people with knowledge, can it really be a vsync or a bug? If it is, how it can be solved?
Just asking this to not raise my hopes for something that maybe can never be improved.



Doesn't TLOU run well? I played the PS4 version so maybe I am wrong

The ps3 version had framerate problems. PS4/Pro versions perform great.

 

[dimb]

As I've said repeatedly, the Switch is a portable system. Most optimization by devs will be done to make the handheld side the one that plays the best. It's the target spec. The Dock system is elegant, but that's a value add.

Apparently, that's true from Nintendo as well.

Stuff like the marketing is really dock focused though. That's how the Switch presents itself on the front of the box and it's hard to imagine that not being the primary mode of play for most users. Like the DF video says, there is more leeway for shortcuts and performance issues on a handheld screen. If they cannot get stuff running in docked mode properly why are they trying to render something that's more demanding? It's all very sad and undermines the concept of the system.

 

[Twilight Princess]

Man TLOU ran like such shit. Still probably in my top 5 games of all time though. So motherfucking good.

I'm big on performance but sometimes you just gotta take it at face value for what it is.

Yeah, I doubt it will run as bad as shadow of the colossus which is one of my all time favs.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

How did this not lead to lower review scores?

I'll answer that question with a question
you read some of those reviews right?

 

[arimanius]

So Bomberman > Zelda :O

Spoiler

/s

 

[Jarmel]

They release this shit before a WiiU vs Switch comparison? what is wrong with you?

They were probably able to do this sooner, as they didn't have Wii U code till either yesterday or today.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

The is not a fault of the hardware. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe runs in Native 1080p60fps on Switch where this was not possible on the U. Using the Wii U as a benchmark, from the info gathered it would appear this is a problem with the optimization of the port rather than a problem with the Docked Switch being incapable or underpowered.

 

[Malus]

It's funny I thought I'd never use tabletop mode, but I wanna play with split joycons and get better performance so maybe...

I still have a hard time imagining playing something like 3D Zelda on the small screen though.

 

[LordKano]

Just like Bloodborne (and many games), it's just a case of a game being good enough that some framedrops aren't something big enough to damage the experience.

 

[Falchion]

It blows my mind that the definitive way to play this game is in portable mode.

 

[HeelPower]

People shouldn't be shocked about this.

The "Nintendo Polish" was partly because even their flagship titles have always been very conservative technically ever since the Wii days.

This is what happens when Nintendo tries to push advanced ,ambitious tech ,and its ok.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Yes, but what we all believed was that optimizing at 720p for the handheld mode would mean that games would more or less "automatically" run the same at 1080p in docked mode. That's what the clock leaks told us. That's not happening, which indicates serious memory bandwidth issues.

No, it doesn't. A smaller size of 1 doesn't indicate anything other than people here desperate to judge a system based on the performance of a launch game, ported to the system in under a year. We have no idea what they're doing between handheld an docked mode, and are merely assuming everything is the same aside from resolution

 

[Easy_D]

It fails because of a wii u launch port?

So it succeeds when Mario Kart 8D drops?


Like i said sounds very likely to me that they weren't able to properly optimize bandwidth usage due to the vastly different RAM configuration compared to wii u .

Yeah I've honestly thought this was the case too, might just be an engine limitation. I mean they must have done some crazy stuff to get it to run on the Wii U in the first place. Maybe that just didn't translate well to the Switches capabilities and somehow portable mode mitigates the issue.

Does this mean it has more memory headroom speed-wise in portable mode despite the lower clocks?

Just like Bloodborne (and many games), it's just a case of a game being good enough that some framedrops aren't something big enough to damage the experience.

If it didn't have Miyazaki as its producer it never would have gotten good scores!

The is not a fault of the hardware. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe runs in Native 1080p60fps on Switch where this was not possible on the U. Using the Wii U as a benchmark, from the info gathered it would appear this is a problem with the optimization of the port rather than a problem with the Docked Switch being incapable or underpowered.

Fast RMX is also massively improved on the Switch.

 

[Skyzard]

They release this shit before a WiiU vs Switch comparison? what is wrong with you?

Nintendo is barely even selling the WiiU version, let alone handing out review copies. I had to buy digitally and at a whooping £60. Only bit because I had spare funds in the account that I wasn't using or going to use for months until I get a switch.

 

[MikeHaggar]

All things considered this is really bizarre. I'm sure Nintendo has been aware of it and if it was an easy fix then they would have taken care of it before launch. I don't have high hopes for a patch that addresses this. I wonder if we will ever find out what is the root cause.

 

[Putosaure]

Played a few hours, nothing really annoying really. Weird.

 

[Jarmel]

Well, I would have a problem with most review outlets then if that were the case. I find the technical ability for a game to run at a fluid constant framerate (60 and above) to be a core part of the experience which allows me to immerse myself in a game. If the physical and visual connection to the game via controls and animation are marred by inconsistencies or feelings of sluggishness, then I am taken out of that suspension of disbelief which is a core part of playing a game for me.

When you start feeling the controls in your hand in a reflective manner, because they are not functioning (and it is not part of the game's design to confound the player), then the game is failing at being a good game IMO.

I am happy an outlet like DF puts out info like this to inform people who purchase games, as well as those who are just merely curious.

I'm also happy that a place like DF exists to fill in what shouldn't be a niche on the review side. Reviewers need to bring up and highlight performance issues even if it doesn't impact the score at all. Some of the reviews I've read have largely glossed over the FPS drops and now I'm wondering whether they played on the Switch Portable and not the docked.

 

[rockx4]

Docked frame drops is definitely very noticeable when playing, especially after spending a lot of time in handheld mode. 900p looks pretty nice on my TV though.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

This is embarrassing for Nintendo.

I think it's embarrassing for so many reviewers to give it perfect scores with such bad performance issues.

 

[Moon Presence]

Shouldn't it be the other way around? I'm not an expert but I think they can patch it.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I think it's embarrassing for so many reviewers to give it perfect scores with such bad performance issues.

Read some reviews.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

It blows my mind that the definitive way to play this game is in portable mode.

I think it's very unfortunate that docked mode is having these issues, but nevertheless I'm not necessarily sure why this would be mind-blowing. At its core, the Switch is a portable console. Jokes about the battery life aside, it's ultimately a tablet.

 

[j0hnnix]

I can't figure what gif would best suit this thread..

Is for some reason the dock is down clocking the cpu? Something doesn't make sense if it runs fine Undocked. I couldn't read all thread posts.

 

[big fake]

have you maybe considered
like many of the reviews allege
this is gonna sound crazy
but have you thought
like
maybe
they weighed the performance issues
and found that they don't tip the scales against the overarching experience which they've been praising?
have you considered that sometimes, reviewers may not make that same concession for other games that they don't consider as fun, or that aren't doing as much to offset the negatives brought on by poor performance?
must I explain to you how that doesn't constitute a double standard?


Finally.
In 2015 and 2016 gamers were all about crying elitism at anyone with standards that went beyond what their favorite console could do.

Ya know this seems like I'm gonna circle my points mentioned above so I'll end this with you here. I don't think in TODAYS generation where performance is more so a important games, more than last generation, that a game with glaring issues on two different platforms, one launch platform can justify a 98. I just find it hard to believe. But then again I haven't played the game so who knows, I honestly might eat a crow. I don't know, I just currently don't see it.

To all those thinking I'm an anti-Zelda or anything, please understand I wish all you enjoy the game to its utmost. I wish its as much as you all wanted it to be.

 

[Kaffeemann]

Digital Foundry should mention that the Switch saves screenshots as JPG.
This makes the visual comparison a bit unfair because compression artifacts make the portable version look worse than it really is.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I'm also happy that a place like DF exists to fill in what shouldn't be a niche on the review side. Reviewers need to bring up and highlight performance issues even if it doesn't impact the score at all. Some of the reviews I've read have largely glossed over the FPS drops and now I'm wondering whether they played on the Switch Portable and not the docked.

A good amount of the reviews played theirs docked. And almost all of them mention frame rate drops, EasyAllies in particular highlighting the sort of drops you saw in the DF video. But it was not enough to detract the game as a whole. Probably because the drops become more infrequent outside the beginning area.

 

[Herb Alpert]

Hasn't this been known for a while? Didn't almost every reviewer mention occasional frame rate hiccups? And yet most of them said it wasn't drastic or frequent enough to affect their enjoyment of the game.

It's fine to be disappointed, but lol at people acting as if this game is unplayable or undeserving if its scores.

Some people said that the 59fps bug made mariokart 8 unplayable to them.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I think it's embarrassing for so many reviewers to give it perfect scores with such bad performance issues.

vvv

there's no objective metric such that having this many frames as opposed to that many frames automatically detracts some amount from a score

if you accept this, then logically you have to accept that it's ultimately the overall subjective experience a game achieves for you that's most relevant, and we kind of maneuver through all the moving pieces in a somewhat arbitrary way

if the technical issues or limitations a game has noticeably interfere with the height or depth of that subjective experience, then they'll clearly deduct from the score

on the other hand, if the technical issues a game has don't noticeably interfere? if they feel like part of a compromise to achieve something that wouldn't have been possible with an emphasis on technical flawlessness? if it doesn't feel like they reflect a lack of technical competence (in fact, the game might be technically impressive in other ways) or an overall lack of polish, but merely reflect the limitations that the design of a game cut itself against? maybe that's a different story

i kinda feel like being a technical marvel tends to boost a review score more than not being a technical marvel tends to detract from one, because your capacity to notice the achievement is equal to your capacity to adjust to imperfect performance and aesthetics that don't rely on cutting edge graphics, depending on the quality of everything else

^^^

10 doesn't mean perfect

 

[forrest]

It blows my mind that the definitive way to play this game is in portable mode.

Right there with you. Still going to play on a 135" projector screen, but I shudder to think of the aliasing and now fps drops while doing so.

It's disappointing for sure. And I really want to know what happened between Digital Foundry's last performance evaluation where everything seemed just fine and this final build. Hoping we see a performance patch soon.

 

[dimb]

Shouldn't it be the other way around? I'm not an expert but I think they can patch it.

If this could be easily fixed it wouldn't be like this. Don't expect a patch.

 

[jediyoshi]

I think it's embarrassing for so many reviewers to give it perfect scores with such bad performance issues.

I think it's embarrassing to assume perfect scores mean perfect games.

 

[tomwhite2004]

From Digital Foundry...

"This is only a theory, but it does make sense based on the data available. Laying out the maths here, docking increases pixel count from 720p to 900p, a 56 per cent in resolution. However, memory bandwidth only rises by 20 per cent, from 1331MHz to 1600MHz. Bandwidth is shared between CPU and GPU, so the higher resolution in the home console mode may be sapping memory bandwidth away from the main processor cores, making us more prone to slowdown when the CPU is under load. Bandwidth concerns may also explain why resolution doesn't scale closer in line with the difference in clock-speeds (307.2MHz or 384MHz undocked, 768MHz docked). "

And not to mention the custom Tegra in the switch has way less memory bandwidth than a standard Tegra, in other words this is a bottleneck that will take a hardware revision rather than a patch to solve.

 

[Skyzard]

Easy fix would be for it to run at a lower resolution, or an option to do that.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

How did this not lead to lower review scores?

Also just so we're clear here: review scores are made up magical fairy dust numbers that are in no way objective or quantifiable. They're just a distillation of how the reviewer feels about the game as a whole, in a very subjective and made up way.

Amazingly, the game's performance did get mentioned in the text of many reviews. Perhaps maybe review scores are pointless made up imaginary numbers that have no importance at all, aside from a broad-strokes gut feeling? Just a thought. Reviews themselves are worth reading, you may consider trying it sometime.

 

[MHWilliams]

The message needs to change. "It's an amazing portable with a bonus HD out feature."

I'm fine with this. It's just that the marketing seems to have given off the wrong impression.

Stuff like the marketing is really dock focused though.

Yup. It's a marketing problem.