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[PSqueak]

This reminds me of a discussion I had recently, and it baffled me how little people seemed used to the usage of 'they'. Like, people claiming it was never, ever singular, and I'm just tilting my head at how they've never come across it.

Talking gender in the english language is super hard, because english is a neutral language and that's why they can be used like this (and has been used like this forever, it just temporarily fell out of style).

I think that's why [english speaking] people can't wrap around the concept of gender as a social construct seprarated from [biological] sex. It's a personal theory, but in spoken context in english gendering nouns 90% of the time refers to something with an actual biological sex.

Contrast to Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and French, in which absolutely every NOUN is gendered regardless of it having a biological sex or not, a "trash can" in spanish (bote de basura) is gendered as a male linguistically, but it has no biological gender; a generic "squirrel" (Ardilla) is linguistically gendered as female regardless of the squirrel in question being a male or a female, it's "una ardilla".

When you understand this linguistical contexts, it really makes it easier to understand the difference between gender and sex and thus allows to really start understanding gender identities as something completely separate from biological sex. A lot of the confusion comes from people unable to understand the difference between both.

 

[Solid Sora]

Unless your liking of 'feminine' attributes extends to the point you feel you actually are a woman, whatever your body, then you're still a dude that just likes feminine things. How you genuinely identify is what matters here.

Gender roles have nothing to do with it. Its about your gender identity, the innate sense inside of yourself about what you should be. As far as I can tell, cis people don't notice it because there isn't an issue with it for them.

Interesting... It sounds like one of those things that you should experience to fully understand.

Doesn't really matter anyway if I understand it or not though. All respect and support for trans people for bravely living thier lives the way they want.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

I still don't really get it.

I mean, I respect it. I have nothing against it. I just have been curious about it for a while and don't really get it. Don't get why "gender" is something different than sex. Is it the social role we associate with certain sex? If so, then aren't those social roles a bad thing that limits who we are, and we should dispose of them?

Also, sometimes, most times actually I wish if I was a woman, because I prefer the social role given to them and maybe feel more comfortable with it. Does that makes me trans by definition?

Sorry if what I'm saying isn't clear or if I sounded offensive in any word I said. English isn't my first language, and if that happened, it was totaly unintentional. I'm legitimately curious here.

At its most basic, a transgender person's body map is projecting differently than what they developed. Imagine the shock of looking down and seeing that your arm is missing. That sensation is similar to what body dysphoria does. Your brain is expecting the body to be something that it isn't, and when it's confronted with that, it causes a lot of undue stress.

Wearing clothing associated with the proper gender, and performing in such a way that is expected from society, are both ways to help the brain feel 'normal', but the best route tends to be through HRT, which causes gradual shifts in the body's secondary sex characteristics. Gender roles are more of a reinforcement that the transgender person is closer to what their brain feels is normal.

 

[RedZaraki]

I have a question also, and I hope I don't offend anyone even by the question itself (I seriously mean no offense).

But I was just wondering why some people feel so acutely intent on "becoming" a certain gender?

I guess I don't feel very strongly about my own gender. I've never once though to myself "Yeah! I'm a real man's man!" or anything along those lines. I feel like even if I were a woman I'd be the same person. For me personally, I don't feel any strong gender "identity".

I feel I'd enjoy the same things, have the same job, dress the same way, have the same friends, and be attracted to the same people whether I was male or female.

Again, I don't mean to offend. I just don't understand what I'm missing.

 

[hypernima]

Frankly, even in non gender discussions, this usage of They/Them as a wild card pronoun that technically is never wrong is the best thing ever and i can't believe i used to communicate on the internet without it before. Truly a blessing for non native speakers.

IKR, unlearning nearly two decades of using it in that way is still a challenge for me though, but I'm getting there.

 

[Five]

I still don't really get it.

I mean, I respect it. I have nothing against it. I just have been curious about it for a while and don't really get it. Don't get why "gender" is something different than sex. Is it the social role we associate with certain sex? If so, then aren't those social roles a bad thing that limits who we are, and we should dispose of them?

Also, sometimes, most times actually I wish if I was a woman, because I prefer the social role given to them and maybe feel more comfortable with it. Does that makes me trans by definition?

Sorry if what I'm saying isn't clear or if I sounded offensive in any word I said. English isn't my first language, and if that happened, it was totaly unintentional. I'm legitimately curious here.

Gender is just the social role we assign to people, generally with respect to their sex. However, since we're social mammals and we evolved from other social mammals, our bodies have adapted massively to account for this, and it's not just "made up".

Imagine if at Apple there was an approximately .3% chance that a new Macbook gets loaded with Windows 10 instead of OSX. Technically the hardware can handle this. Some people even prefer to be non-binary and switch between OSX and Windows on their Macbook. But that Windows installation hasn't been put on hardware it can utilize to the fullest.

Brain imaging technology is incredibly primitive (comparable to Galileo trying to study the universe with his tiny telescope) but even so we've already identified general trends in statistically normal male and female brains, especially with regards to levels of gray matter versus white matter in the brain. Interestingly, these levels are closely matched by the respective transgender people who identify as that, so a transman's brain looks like a genetic male brain, and a transwoman's brain like that of a genetic female.

We don't fully know why. We don't know if that's all there is to it. But we do know that, unlike the allegorical macbook, it's easier to change the hardware than to rewrite a human operating system.

 

[perturbator]

Thanks a lot for the thread and information. More awareness, knowledge, and conversation should always be welcome.
Made me recall another excellent thread from years ago on here, http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491958, which had a lot of great stuff as well.

One thing I'd like to ask without going down a deeper Google rabbit right away would be in regard to TERF. I actually had to look up what it meant when you first mentioned it ("TERF propaganda") as I hadn't heard this term before and didn't see there was a section about it right after. I'm not immersed in the community at all, so I guess I'm just curious (and don't really know how to phrase this), but are TERFs a big deal to the community and why?

I understand they're holding a vile view of transgender folk, but why are they special in that regard and have been kind of singled out in the OP? I'm not trying to say that people or groups shouldn't necessarily be named or shamed, just wanting to know why attack this one specifically?

 

[Yayate]

I have a question also, and I hope I don't offend anyone even by the question itself (I seriously mean no offense).

But I was just wondering why some people feel so acutely intent on "becoming" a certain gender?

I guess I don't feel very strongly about my own gender. I've never once though to myself "Yeah! I'm a real man's man!" or anything along those lines. I feel like even if I were a woman I'd be the same person. For me personally, I don't feel any strong gender "identity".

I feel I'd enjoy the same things, have the same job, dress the same way, have the same friends, and be attracted to the same people whether I was male or female.

Again, I don't mean to offend. I just don't understand what I'm missing.

Transpeople don't become a different gender. They're changing their outward appearance to match what it feels on the inside.

Transpeople basically have an innate repulsion towards their own bodies, with different measures for different individuals. Some feel like their entire body is different from what everything in their mind tells them it should be, while some take equally strong issues with specific parts of their body.

There's a strong sense of not belonging in the body you were born in and stuff like changing how you express yourself, HRT, etc, suppresses the pain and lets you feel more comfortable in your own body.

 

[mollipen]

I guess I don't feel very strongly about my own gender. I've never once though to myself "Yeah! I'm a real man's man!" or anything along those lines. I feel like even if I were a woman I'd be the same person. For me personally, I don't feel any strong gender "identity".

Do you stop every day to think about how your fingers work? Like, do you consider the impulses that are sent to your brain that make them move, and how the body is able to send those signals at such a high speed that you're basically able to move your fingers without even "thinking" about it (even though, deep down, you are)? Or, do you just use your hands and not even give it a second though?

There's hundreds of things that we take for granted every day, and never give a second though—like moving our fingers. But if you're someone who had a physical deformity, some other kind of muscular problem, maybe you've been in a car accident, or whatever else, simply moving the fingers on your hand might be an everyday struggle. And, until your hand is "normal" again, it might be one of the main things you stress over and obsess about.

For most people out there, gender isn't something they give much thought to throughout their lives, because everything is in alignment and it's just part of them and they don't have to think about it. When part of that normalcy is broken, however, what is taken for granted for most can suddenly become a huge disconnect from the life they want to live.

 

[KernelPanic]

Tempted to comment but it's too personal and this is a public forum

 

[TenCentCoast]

Thanks a lot for the thread and information. More awareness, knowledge, and conversation should always be welcome.
Made me recall another excellent thread from years ago on here, http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491958, which had a lot of great stuff as well.

One thing I'd like to ask without going down a deeper Google rabbit right away would be in regard to TERF. I actually had to look up what it meant when you first mentioned it ("TERF propaganda") as I hadn't heard this term before and didn't see there was a section about it right after. I'm not immersed in the community at all, so I guess I'm just curious (and don't really know how to phrase this), but are TERFs a big deal to the community and why?

I understand they're holding a vile view of transgender folk, but why are they special in that regard and have been kind of singled out in the OP? I'm not trying to say that people or groups shouldn't necessarily be named or shamed, just wanting to know why attack this one specifically?

TERFs are especially vile to me because they masquerade as feminists while holding these views. Second-wave feminism (the theory of feminism that they 'branch' from) isn't just some unknown thing- and people who hear the word "feminist" may align with them mistakenly. They use it as a way to recruit. One specific TERF hangout spot, if this enlightens anyone as to whose side they are really on, is Reddit. I can think of multiple times that users from this subreddit harassed people from /r/asktransgender and mocked them. They're even proud to align with conservatives and have their support. It's a more complicated feminist theory issue than I've probably made it out to be, but TERFs are a big deal to the trans community, and more common than you would think.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I guess I don't feel very strongly about my own gender. I've never once though to myself "Yeah! I'm a real man's man!" or anything along those lines. I feel like even if I were a woman I'd be the same person. For me personally, I don't feel any strong gender "identity".

I feel I'd enjoy the same things, have the same job, dress the same way, have the same friends, and be attracted to the same people whether I was male or female.

I am in the same boat. Which is why I identify as agender. I don't have any personal identity as either a man or woman.

 

[Rösti]

Helpful thread, TenCentCoast, thank you. The Merriam-Webster definition of transgender is sufficient enough, but another good source of definition is from the American Psychological Association:

What does transgender mean?

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

Source: http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

The link has much more on the subject, so check it out.

 

[tamaster92]

Thanks OP

As a transwoman stuff like this is pretty important, people understanding better always helps.

I haven't seen too many problems on gaf but I'm not the regular user so it may just pass me by

 

[driggonny]

If you were to ask me two weeks ago what my gender was, I would have probably responded with agender because I didn't really feel like I cared. I didn't fully understand what it meant to be transgender but I love people and believed that they should be able to be who they are without discrimination.

But then something clicked in my mind recently. I think I totally get it now. :T

Thanks for the thread, OP. I know you've been planning it for a while <3

 

[Ascenion]

Helpful thread, TenCentCoast, thank you. The Merriam-Webster definition of transgender is sufficient enough, but another good source of definition is from the American Psychological Association:


Source: http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

The link has much more on the subject, so check it out.

Nice add, was about to post something similar myself and I still will. Beautiful thread by the way.

So an authority on this topic would be a guy name Dr. Walter Bockting. His work is amazing and if you truly wish to learn more I implore you to look into his work. The APA has an interview here with him that is pretty good. I became rather interested in his work towards the end of undergrad and want to explore it more when I go back (eventually).

 

[Ketkat]

Tempted to comment but it's too personal and this is a public forum

Feel free to PM me then

 

[perturbator]

TERFs are especially vile to me because they masquerade as feminists while holding these views. Second-wave feminism (the theory of feminism that they 'branch' from) isn't just some unknown thing- and people who hear the word "feminist" may align with them mistakenly. They use it as a way to recruit. One specific TERF hangout spot, if this enlightens anyone as to whose side they are really on, is Reddit. I can think of multiple times that users from this subreddit harassed people from /r/asktransgender and mocked them. They're even proud to align with conservatives and have their support. It's a more complicated feminist theory issue than I've probably made it out to be, but TERFs are a big deal to the trans community, and more common than you would think.

Thank you for expanding upon it. I wasn't trying to minimize their abhorrent views or their negative impact on the community, just wasn't aware they were a thing.

 

[Ephidel]

I have a question also, and I hope I don't offend anyone even by the question itself (I seriously mean no offense).

But I was just wondering why some people feel so acutely intent on "becoming" a certain gender?

I guess I don't feel very strongly about my own gender. I've never once though to myself "Yeah! I'm a real man's man!" or anything along those lines. I feel like even if I were a woman I'd be the same person. For me personally, I don't feel any strong gender "identity".

I feel I'd enjoy the same things, have the same job, dress the same way, have the same friends, and be attracted to the same people whether I was male or female.

Again, I don't mean to offend. I just don't understand what I'm missing.

Try thinking of it this way: You'd enjoy the same things, have the same job, dress the same way, have the same friends, and be attracted to the same people.

But a woman who did all the same things you do, had the same job, dressed the same way, had the same friends, and was attracted to the same people might be considered far more unusual.

Doing the exact same things you do now, but as a woman instead, might be harder than you think.

Let's say you love wrestling - participating, not watching, and you go to wrestling practice regularly, and enter competitions.
If you were a woman instead then you might find it harder to pursue that hobby, or to pursue it to the same level, and you wouldn't be allowed to participate in the same competitions (or if you did you would be judged differently).

Some jobs are unisex, but not all.
You might not get hired for a construction crew because they think you'll upset the team dynamics. Or because they think you're not up for the job physically. You might find yourself earning less if you work in management for a big corporation. You might find it harder to get taken seriously if you tell people you really want to be an auto-mechanic. You might find yourself getting chased out of work due to stalking or harassment from faceless nobodies if you work in videogames. And so on.

You think you'd dress the same way?
Dress codes and societal norms would likely get in the way of that, as would your figure.
When I grew up it was still common for schools for forbid girls to wear trousers. Imagine wanting to wear the same clothes as all the other guys because those are the clothes you like, but not being allowed because you're a girl.

(It's actually easier to see it would be odd if you use the opposite example though. Pretend instead that you're a woman who thinks she'd that, if she were a man, she would still be the same person, like the same things, and wear the same clothes.
Take an average woman and they probably own a dress or a skirt of a pair of heels. Even if they hate all those things they might own a low cut top. Obviously you'd actually be rather unlikely to go with those clothing choices if you were a man EVEN IF the only reason for that is because of the shit you'd get from other people, so saying you'd dress the same would be a lie)

Then once you get to being attracted to the same people, yes that's entirely possible, but it would now be classified differenty.
After all, if you're a man attracted to a woman you're heterosexual.
If, as a woman, you were attracted to that same woman then you would be a lesbian (or bisexual, if you're also attracted to men).
That means that even if nothing else changed you would go from being part of a heterosexual majority as a man, to being part of the LGBT minority grouping if you were a woman.

Yes, a lot of that shit is tied up in cultural norms, but if you identify strongly with a number of things that would make you an oddity among the sex you were born as but would be normal otherwise can you see why someone might instead want to identify with the gender that would consider all those things normal?

Sometimes, as I understand it, people just flat out feel their bodies are wrong too.

You might think you'd be the same as a man or a woman, but right now you're a man.

Now imagine you're that woman you assume would be the same as you, and you're growing up and looking in the mirror and nothing is quite right.

Imagine that instead of feeling okay or the same, you feel like something's missing. You can't build muscle the same way, or you can't engage in sexual encounters the way you feel like you should, because you feel like you should have a penis.
Even worse you have breasts and they get in the fucking way, and when you look at yourself in the mirror you can't shake the feeling that they shouldn't be there because your brain thinks you should look more masculine.
It would be fucking confusing.

 

[tearsofash]

Yeah... trans people don't become another gender. They just happen to realize it at some point, whether it's through dysphoric feelings or otherwise. I feel like the word "transitioning" is a little off-kilter because it implies you are changing genders, when really all it is a process affirming the gender you always have identified with.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Yeah... trans people don't become another gender. They just happen to realize it at some point, whether it's through dysphoric feelings or otherwise. I feel like the word "transitioning" is a little off-kilter because it implies you are changing genders, when really all it is a process affirming the gender you always have identified with.

Is not transitioning the process of your *body* transitioning, while the mental construct that is your gender stays the same?

 

[MsKrisp]

Thank you for this thread, I've been trying to understand trans issues and clear up my ignorance but I don't personally know any trans people. Please forgive my ignorance.

One thing I really don't understand is what brings people to the point of going through the actual process of transition. What makes it worth going through hormone therapy and surgery, and what kind of difficulties do you face physically?

Growing up I had wanted to be a boy pretty badly, imagined what it would be like to have a penis, how life would be easier for me (I was fucked with a lot for being a tomboy and preferring "guy" things). It wasn't until much later in life I really began to embrace being a woman and appreciating my own body and status in life much more, but I still get aggravated with socially constructed gender roles. There was never any point where I imagined attempting to transition, I didn't believe that would help the way I felt. Today I enjoy being a woman, but I still imagine what life would be like as a man. I don't know what any of that means :/

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Is not transitioning the process of your *body* transitioning, while the mental construct that is your gender stays the same?

It is, but part of the problem is how people understand and interpret it colloquially, nevermind what the actual process and definition is. Particularly with how the 90s and early 2000s handled the concept of the sex change, a lot of people still understand it to mean 'a man becomes a woman' and vice versa wholly, rather than 'someone changes their body to better fit the gender they already are'.

Thank you for this thread, I've been trying to understand trans issues and clear up my ignorance but I don't personally know any trans people. Please forgive my ignorance.

One thing I really don't understand is what brings people to the point of going through the actual process of transition. What makes it worth going through hormone therapy and surgery, and what kind of difficulties do you face physically?

Growing up I had wanted to be a boy pretty badly, imagined what it would be like to have a penis, how life would be easier for me (I was fucked with a lot for being a tomboy and preferring "guy" things). It wasn't until much later in life I really began to embrace being a woman and appreciating my own body and status in life much more, but I still get aggravated with socially constructed gender roles. There was never any point where I imagined attempting to transition, I didn't believe that would help the way I felt. Today I enjoy being a woman, but I still imagine what life would be like as a man. I don't know what any of that means :/

Well, Ephidel covers it pretty well above, but since that's pretty lengthy, I'll provide the tl;dr version: Comfort. In the broader sense, we live in a world and societies that yes, still primarily estimate gender via visible sex, and thus, people's identity via such. Being misgendered or otherwise treated as sick in the head because one feels to be a woman while others see a man is frustrating unto the point of actual depression for many; thus transitioning is kind of cutting the gordian knot by making both the visible and internal self align. People are less likely complain about you wearing woman's clothing if, in their eyes, you are physically a woman, and that's just a mild example of the crap people can have to put up with (a more extreme and horrific example being demonstrated in another thread).

At a more personal level, while the exact nature of gender and how it relates to sex isn't completely figured out, because we do have to untangle it from all societal stuff that's been built on top, there is enough on an instinctual level that when people look in the mirror, they realise what's there that shouldn't be, and what's not that should. That the body they have isn't the one they should have, and it will fucking gnaw at them, and if such prevents them from living up to whatever cultural ideals and norms surround either gender or their physical sex, undermines their confidence and certainty within themselves. Transitioning provides that visible, physical assurance that they are who they are, and they cannot be discounted on it because of whatever is between their legs.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Is not transitioning the process of your *body* transitioning, while the mental construct that is your gender stays the same?

Cis guy here, this sounds correct.

Thank you for this thread, I've been trying to understand trans issues and clear up my ignorance but I don't personally know any trans people. Please forgive my ignorance.

One thing I really don't understand is what brings people to the point of going through the actual process of transition. What makes it worth going through hormone therapy and surgery, and what kind of difficulties do you face physically?

Growing up I had wanted to be a boy pretty badly, imagined what it would be like to have a penis, how life would be easier for me (I was fucked with a lot for being a tomboy and preferring "guy" things). It wasn't until much later in life I really began to embrace being a woman and appreciating my own body and status in life much more, but I still get aggravated with socially constructed gender roles. There was never any point where I imagined attempting to transition, I didn't believe that would help the way I felt. Today I enjoy being a woman, but I still imagine what life would be like as a man. I don't know what any of that means :/

A really common misconception, and I think it's already been cleared up earlier in this thread, is that a transwoman wants to be a woman but is born in a man's body, and vice versa. The reality is that a transwoman quite literally is a woman but is born in a man's body. It's less about cultural norms and thinking about how life would be easier (because, let's be honest, it's not easy to be trans) and more about *knowing* that your body doesn't match who you are, and transition is an effort to make that dysphoria lessened. Ephidel answered it a lot better than I could though, and it's just a couple posts up, specifically the last few paragraphs.

Edit: god dammit, beaten by seconds, lol.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

I've never met a trans person before, and with little to no experience it's hard to understand whats right and wrong to say.

I was on tinder a year or two ago. A match began talking to me, a girl with only 2 or 3 pics and all taken in the most flattering angles and filters etc etc. Usual red flag stuff.

But this girl was pushing for a date and I was seeing a few girls at the time. I said I might be free a week or two from now. Right around then she told me she was trans. I then said sorry I'm not interested. Hence the barrage of abuse and accusations of being transphobic and everything else she could think of.

My question is, is that transphobic? Regardless of what someone identifies as, the knowledge that she was trans was enough for any attraction to disappear and my interest to go to 0. I dont feel like I did anything wrong honestly.

Also had I met her, and the date went well, and then she told me about it, the same thing would likely have happened. And speaking honestly, I would have been pretty annoyed I hadnt been told first.

Is this common? Or am I just an ignorant asshole?

 

[FrontalMonk]

I've never met a trans person before, and with little to no experience it's hard to understand whats right and wrong to say.

I was on tinder a year or two ago. A match began talking to me, a girl with only 2 or 3 pics and all taken in the most flattering angles and filters etc etc. Usual red flag stuff.

But this girl was pushing for a date and I was seeing a few girls at the time. I said I might be free a week or two from now. Right around then she told me she was trans. I then said sorry I'm not interested. Hence the barrage of abuse and accusations of being transphobic and everything else she could think of.

My question is, is that transphobic? Regardless of what someone identifies as, the knowledge that she was trans was enough for any attraction to disappear and my interest to go to 0. I dont feel like I did anything wrong honestly.

Also had I met her, and the date went well, and then she told me about it, the same thing would likely have happened. And speaking honestly, I would have been pretty annoyed I hadnt been told first.

Is this common? Or am I just an ignorant asshole?

This was asked a little higher up in the thread, and well...it depends:

No, but I know 99% of others will disagree with me on that.

Edit: Well, let me clarify. "Refuse" may fall under a "yes" for me, but there could be other reasons for that (like excelsiorlef's mention below of wanting biological children). Not interested in because they aren't attracted to trans people? That I don't consider transphobic.

Depends on why... is it because they want biological children? Than nah not really. Is it because ewww you used to be a man or woman? Than absolutely yes.

Basically I guess it boils down to figuring out why you aren't interested, and it's the sort of thing that may require some soul searching on your part.

 

[RumblingRosco]

I'd say that I identify as a very common person: cis-gender male, heterosexual, white, born to a middle-class family in the USA. With that in mind, I've generally had the approach that "idgaf" what other people do with their body as long as they aren't hurting anyone else - so, if someone feels they are male but were born with female genitalia, who am I to stop them from taking actions to make their outsides match their insides? Same philosophy for gay/lesbian individuals that want to get married; it doesn't hurt me in the least, so why should I stop them?

I do take it one step further though, in that I'm not apathetic to the plight of minorities. I will/do actively stand up and defend their rights. It would be inhuman not to do so.

My only hang-up, and I see it has already been discussed in this thread, is whether I would be comfortable dating a transgender woman. I'm already happily married so in practice this will never come up anyway, but, I think it would be very hard for me to be comfortable dating a transgender woman if I were hypothetically single. I have no logical argument here, but for whatever reason (ingrained transphobia?), I'm not comfortable with the idea. It's something I think about from time-to-time in an attempt to break down any inherent bigotry I have.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Thanks a lot for the thread and information. More awareness, knowledge, and conversation should always be welcome.
Made me recall another excellent thread from years ago on here, http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491958, which had a lot of great stuff as well.

One thing I'd like to ask without going down a deeper Google rabbit right away would be in regard to TERF. I actually had to look up what it meant when you first mentioned it ("TERF propaganda") as I hadn't heard this term before and didn't see there was a section about it right after. I'm not immersed in the community at all, so I guess I'm just curious (and don't really know how to phrase this), but are TERFs a big deal to the community and why?

I understand they're holding a vile view of transgender folk, but why are they special in that regard and have been kind of singled out in the OP? I'm not trying to say that people or groups shouldn't necessarily be named or shamed, just wanting to know why attack this one specifically?

TERFS being under the guise of leftists, feminists and get a pass frequently for being transphobic as they wrap their hatred in the language of women's oppression and the patriarchy. A lot of the figure heads are also writers, and academics so they also get to wrap their hatred in concepts of intellectual debate and academic analysis.

As a result these folks often get speaking invitations, their columns printed in and hosted by major news sources (Guardian used to literally have an entire roster, and still might, of these folks), they get the benefit of the doubt and as a result their hatred gets presented as a dispute between two groups with equal sides (and many articles will even give more weight to the TERFS) even in reputable places like the fucking New Yorker.

 

[Media]

I try to be really open minded on the subject, but I'm always afraid I will accidentally offend. I don't know any transgender women (my oldest son appears to be gender fluid). I feel like I can't talk online about ciswomen issues like ( like periods and pregnancies and shit) with out upsetting transwomen. Am I being stupid or on the right track?

 

[RumblingRosco]

I try to be really open minded on the subject, but I'm always afraid I will accidentally offend. I don't know any transgender women (my oldest son appears to be gender fluid). I feel like I can't talk online about ciswomen issue with ( like periods and pregnancies and shit) with out upsetting transwomen. Am I being stupid or on the right track?

Not transgender, but IMO, if any transgender woman is insulted about you talking about normal bodily functions of a cisgender woman, I'd say that transgender woman isn't any better than the people that would discriminate against her for being transgender. Caveat: if you vocalize that a transgender woman is less of a woman because she doesn't have the same bodily functions that a cisgender woman has, well, that's insulting/rude to say the least.

 

[driggonny]

I try to be really open minded on the subject, but I'm always afraid I will accidentally offend. I don't know any transgender women (my oldest son appears to be gender fluid). I feel like I can't talk online about ciswomen issues like ( like periods and pregnancies and shit) with out upsetting transwomen. Am I being stupid or on the right track?

I don't think a reasonable person of any gender should care if you talk about perfectly normal bodily functions like that. Don't worry too much <3

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

I'd say that I identify as a very common person: cis-gender male, heterosexual, white, born to a middle-class family in the USA. With that in mind, I've generally had the approach that "idgaf" what other people do with their body as long as they aren't hurting anyone else - so, if someone feels they are male but were born with female genitalia, who am I to stop them from taking actions to make their outsides match their insides? Same philosophy for gay/lesbian individuals that want to get married; it doesn't hurt me in the least, so why should I stop them?

I do take it one step further though, in that I'm not apathetic to the plight of minorities. I will/do actively stand up and defend their rights. It would be inhuman not to do so.

My only hang-up, and I see it has already been discussed in this thread, is whether I would be comfortable dating a transgender woman. I'm already happily married so in practice this will never come up anyway, but, I think it would be very hard for me to be comfortable dating a transgender woman if I were hypothetically single. I have no logical argument here, but for whatever reason (ingrained transphobia?), I'm not comfortable with the idea. It's something I think about from time-to-time in an attempt to break down any inherent bigotry I have.

Again, preferences vs hate. Two very different things. One doesn't make you a bigot.

 

[malingenie]

Most of all, be decent. Be a good person.

Hi! Thanks for the info. I have a theory as to why some liberals are perceived as less than welcoming and open to trans and other gender issues. I believe( want to believe) that most liberals are absolutely okay with everyone's liberty and expressing themselves in whichever way they want as long as they are not hurting or abusing anyone. I think that learning a new language is difficult, and gender in the last decades has become like learning a new language. I've messed up so many times, and it's embarrassing. Like I say "hi, guys" a lot, in the presence of all females or all males or a combo. But I realized earlier this year that saying this in front of a trans woman may undermine their struggle. And I've been trying to change, but it's hard. So, I think a lot of people are struggling with using the right terms or understanding the slew of new pronouns, nouns and adjectives. And when people feel embarrassed they become defensive. So when they mess up, they are not at their best to admit that they are still learning and meant no harm. So I wanted to thank you for sharing, and also give you a perspective into why some of us may have had awkward moments but all we are trying to do is be inclusive.

I see it as a theme in this thread. There's fear of offending. You only fear offending that which you love, though. And I love you. The only thing that can cure this is more inclusion, and sadly I'm an asocial hermit, so I only learn from forums like this and brief episodes in my journeys.

 

[perturbator]

TERFS being under the guise of leftists, feminists and get a pass frequently for being transphobic as they wrap their hatred in the language of women's oppression and the patriarchy. A lot of the figure heads are also writers, and academics so they also get to wrap their hatred in concepts of intellectual debate and academic analysis.

As a result these folks often get speaking invitations, their columns printed in and hosted by major news sources (Guardian used to literally have an entire roster, and still might, of these folks), they get the benefit of the doubt and as a result their hatred gets presented as a dispute between two groups with equal sides (and many articles will even give more weight to the TERFS) even in reputable places like the fucking New Yorker.

Well shit, I'm sorry. Thank you as well for the explanation. Normalizing hate just blows my mind.

I have a lot of scattered thoughts and questions on this now, but one that sticks out is just: what is their goal in this? Do they actually feel they can stuff transgender people back in a box and close the lid on it as if they no longer exist? That isn't going to happen, we're going to move forward and their hateful bile is going to be on the wrong end of history. Is it really so hard to just say "okay cool, welcome, how can we make this better for you?"

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well shit, I'm sorry. Thank you as well for the explanation. Normalizing hate just blows my mind.

I have a lot of scattered thoughts and questions on this now, but one that sticks out is just: what is their goal in this? Do they actually feel they can stuff transgender people back in a box and close the lid on it as if they no longer exist? That isn't going to happen, we're going to move forward and their hateful bile is going to be on the wrong end of history. Is it really so hard to just say "okay cool, welcome, how can we make this better for you?"

They think trans women are the ultimate male oppression their goal is to deny us our womanhood and convince society to do so too. On a lower level they seek to muddy the waters and slow progress

 

[M0nochromatic]

Great thread OP, very educational!

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Well shit, I'm sorry. Thank you as well for the explanation. Normalizing hate just blows my mind.

I have a lot of scattered thoughts and questions on this now, but one that sticks out is just: what is their goal in this? Do they actually feel they can stuff transgender people back in a box and close the lid on it as if they no longer exist? That isn't going to happen, we're going to move forward and their hateful bile is going to be on the wrong end of history. Is it really so hard to just say "okay cool, welcome, how can we make this better for you?"

They think trans women are the ultimate male oppression their goal is to deny us our womanhood and convince society to do so too. On a lower level they seek to muddy the waters and slow progress

To elaborate on this a bit more: Many TERFs feel that an acceptance of transgender identities (and many other, less binary genders) ultimately undermines the principles and ambitions of feminism. In their view, allowing a 'man' to 'pretend' they are a woman cedes power to patriarchal forces, and also permits some kind of metric that determines whether one is male or female beyond anatomy, which for them is at odds with the notion of breaking down gender roles and barriers entirely. Someone that says they felt they were female because of their liking for certain toys or clothes or otherwise aligning with more 'feminine' ideas and interests, is to them a betrayal of the entire point of the feminist ideology.

If that sounds heavily reductive and rather narrow, that's because it is. Rather ironically, it's telling other women that they can't be women, thus defining womanhood in some fashion. It also excuses a fuckton of hatred and abuse, so kinda undermines their moral highground.

 

[Camp Freddie]

I try to be really open minded on the subject, but I'm always afraid I will accidentally offend. I don't know any transgender women (my oldest son appears to be gender fluid). I feel like I can't talk online about ciswomen issues like ( like periods and pregnancies and shit) with out upsetting transwomen. Am I being stupid or on the right track?

You can and should be able to openly speak about your own bodily functions without worrying that you might offend someone. I think trans-women are highly unlikely to be offended. It's similar to how it's acceptable to talk about diets and fitness online despite the fact that some people reading it might have weight/mobility problems.

The idea that biological women might be censored seems to be one of the most harmful weapons used against transgender people.
Even my wife told me how she felt 'conflicted' about trans women because of perceived campaigns to have 'breastfeeding' renamed 'chestfeeding' to avoid triggering transgender women.
I've assumed it's an online myth equivalent to the "War on Christmas" (no, muslims do not want to rename it "Winterval", those are just stupid people). Not least because as a straight cis man, I still have breasts - though despite my baby's best attempts, they remain non-functional.

Anti-trans sentiments seem to be very popular on "mumsnet"-type forums, as people there attempt to treat motherhood and womanhood as somehow indivisible (though to be fair, many people in those groups don't consider 'childless-by-choice' women to be real women either...)
I hear a lot of cis women claiming that since a transgender woman grew up with male privilege, they can never understand what it is to be a woman.
I think transgender women have their own intersectional issues with male privilege, and frankly - they'll learn soon enough what it's really like to be treated as a woman (and often as less than a woman, unfortunately).

 

[TankRizzo]

My sister is trans and while it took a while for my dad to come to grips with it, he fully supports her now. Great thread.

 

[perturbator]

They think trans women are the ultimate male oppression their goal is to deny us our womanhood and convince society to do so too. On a lower level they seek to muddy the waters and slow progress

I wish I had a better memory, I knew somewhere in the back of my mind I'd heard something about this before. Transparent's "Man On The Land" episode, and indeed looking up an article on it now (http://www.mtv.com/news/2686142/transparent-man-on-the-land-exclusion/), it even has the term TERF in there.
Looks like TERFs have been around for decades already then, which makes my phrasing about being a "big deal" regrettable now.

Maybe if I can segue into a better question: how is Transparent generally received?

On the topic of media, I think my first movie with a transgender role in it would've been Transamerica (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407265/) back in the day. Believe I saw Boys Don't Cry after that point, among others over the years. Is there a good link to a list, or one that someone can provide, in regard to other movies or series in the same vein?

To elaborate on this a bit more: Many TERFs feel that an acceptance of transgender identities (and many other, less binary genders) ultimately undermines the principles and ambitions of feminism. In their view, allowing a 'man' to 'pretend' they are a woman cedes power to patriarchal forces, and also permits some kind of metric that determines whether one is male or female beyond anatomy, which for them is at odds with the notion of breaking down gender roles and barriers entirely. Someone that says they felt they were female because of their liking for certain toys or clothes or otherwise aligning with more 'feminine' ideas and interests, is to them a betrayal of the entire point of the feminist ideology.

If that sounds heavily reductive and rather narrow, that's because it is. Rather ironically, it's telling other women that they can't be women, thus defining womanhood in some fashion. It also excuses a fuckton of hatred and abuse, so kinda undermines their moral highground.

Thank you for this. Being outside of the bubble you just never know exactly what all of the nuances are.

 

[Solid Sora]

At its most basic, a transgender person's body map is projecting differently than what they developed. Imagine the shock of looking down and seeing that your arm is missing. That sensation is similar to what body dysphoria does. Your brain is expecting the body to be something that it isn't, and when it's confronted with that, it causes a lot of undue stress.

Wearing clothing associated with the proper gender, and performing in such a way that is expected from society, are both ways to help the brain feel 'normal', but the best route tends to be through HRT, which causes gradual shifts in the body's secondary sex characteristics. Gender roles are more of a reinforcement that the transgender person is closer to what their brain feels is normal.

Imagine if at Apple there was an approximately .3% chance that a new Macbook gets loaded with Windows 10 instead of OSX. Technically the hardware can handle this. Some people even prefer to be non-binary and switch between OSX and Windows on their Macbook. But that Windows installation hasn't been put on hardware it can utilize to the fullest.

Brain imaging technology is incredibly primitive (comparable to Galileo trying to study the universe with his tiny telescope) but even so we've already identified general trends in statistically normal male and female brains, especially with regards to levels of gray matter versus white matter in the brain. Interestingly, these levels are closely matched by the respective transgender people who identify as that, so a transman's brain looks like a genetic male brain, and a transwoman's brain like that of a genetic female.

We don't fully know why. We don't know if that's all there is to it. But we do know that, unlike the allegorical macbook, it's easier to change the hardware than to rewrite a human operating system.

Thank you for the super informative responses. The picture is much clearer for me now.

One final question, is being trans something you always know but need to come to terms with it, or can it be a sudden realization late in life?

 

[FrodoYolo]

Thank you for the super informative responses. The picture is much clearer for me now.

One final question, is being trans something you always know but need to come to terms with it, or can it be a sudden realization late in life?

Either or. Some know when they are young, others figure it out later.

 

[Aikidoka]

This is pretty good at explaining it.

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Thanks for sharing that article. The example regarding the BSTc sexual dimorphism really made the idea of body dysphoria more concrete and got rid of other bad misconceptions I had ( i think at least). At least, it provides a clear context for how the concept of gender being a "multi-dimensional" entity.

 

[iirate]

Transpeople don't become a different gender. They're changing their outward appearance to match what it feels on the inside.

Transpeople basically have an innate repulsion towards their own bodies, with different measures for different individuals. Some feel like their entire body is different from what everything in their mind tells them it should be, while some take equally strong issues with specific parts of their body.

There's a strong sense of not belonging in the body you were born in and stuff like changing how you express yourself, HRT, etc, suppresses the pain and lets you feel more comfortable in your own body.

The bolded isn't always true. Some trans people aren't body dysphoric at all, and others like myself learned dysphoria and had to unlearn it. When I was first figuring out that I was trans and beginning my social transition, I was pretty sure I'd have bottom surgery at some point. It took years to unpack the insecurities that made me think I wanted that. I still experience other forms of dysphoria, but my genitals aren't a problem.

I try to be really open minded on the subject, but I'm always afraid I will accidentally offend. I don't know any transgender women (my oldest son appears to be gender fluid). I feel like I can't talk online about ciswomen issues like ( like periods and pregnancies and shit) with out upsetting transwomen. Am I being stupid or on the right track?

I think we all need to stop thinking of periods and pregnancies as cis woman issues. This arguably hurts many trans men and afab(assigned female at birth) non-binary people more than trans women, for starters. Even outside of trans people, these aren't universal issues for cis women.

Society should stop dividing reproductive issues along gender lines.

 

[excelsiorlef]

To elaborate on this a bit more: Many TERFs feel that an acceptance of transgender identities (and many other, less binary genders) ultimately undermines the principles and ambitions of feminism. In their view, allowing a 'man' to 'pretend' they are a woman cedes power to patriarchal forces, and also permits some kind of metric that determines whether one is male or female beyond anatomy, which for them is at odds with the notion of breaking down gender roles and barriers entirely. Someone that says they felt they were female because of their liking for certain toys or clothes or otherwise aligning with more 'feminine' ideas and interests, is to them a betrayal of the entire point of the feminist ideology.

If that sounds heavily reductive and rather narrow, that's because it is. Rather ironically, it's telling other women that they can't be women, thus defining womanhood in some fashion. It also excuses a fuckton of hatred and abuse, so kinda undermines their moral highground.

And the irony is trans folk only adopt socially constructed gender role for the exact same reason cis folk adopt them... because they are socially learned and enforced behaviours and preferences.

If the social norm for boys was to play with dolls and girls with trucks you'd see trans men expressing interests in dolls at a young age and trans women expressing interest in dolls because trans kids pick up the same social cues for the same reasons that cis kids do only they generally pick up the ones of their true gender rather than their assigned sex.

 

[tearsofash]

Is not transitioning the process of your *body* transitioning, while the mental construct that is your gender stays the same?

Correct. You are just changing your body to match what your identity in your mind is. (Not that everyone even changes their body)

 

[Butterfly Witch]

Correct. You are just changing your body to match what your identity in your mind is. (Not that everyone even changes their body)

Yes and no...

I mean, it's really hard to define "transition" these days as some people use it analogous with the act of starting HRT and the changes it makes but others refer to it as the act of transitioning from one gender presentation to the other and others yet define it as the whole process from accepting yourself to living the rest of your life.

 

[Woorloog]

Informative thread.

And one question:
Is transsexual an old term or what? Seems a bit inaccurate really.

I've used it sometimes but not sure it is correct to use it. Might be a Finnish thing, i have vague feeling that calling transgender here "transseksuaalinen" (transsexual) might be more common than "transsukupuolinen" (transgender), not sure why.

EDIT Duh, i actually have the answer to this in a tab i got open. Something someone linked on this thread.
Transsexual apparently means post-surgery, uh, body? So it'd be somewhat limited term. Presumably transgender is preferred?

If you were to ask me two weeks ago what my gender was, I would have probably responded with agender because I didn't really feel like I cared. I didn't fully understand what it meant to be transgender but I love people and believed that they should be able to be who they are without discrimination.

But then something clicked in my mind recently. I think I totally get it now. :T

Did you figure out that you're trans or what? If you don't mind me asking.

If not:
I recently learned there's demigender as well, where one identifies with part of that gender but not all. (A bit like but not quite the same as demisexual or demiromantic where one doesn't feel either without first forming strong enough emotional bond with someone.)
Before knowing that, i thought i was agender (when i started thinking about that just sometime ago, i figured male doesn't really mean much to me) but then it made sense that some things are me, some are not, so demiman fits me reasonably well.
Of course, there's a bunch of other gender identities too...

One final question, is being trans something you always know but need to come to terms with it, or can it be a sudden realization late in life?

I think this kind of realization can happen to all kinds of things even late in life. Whether it is about sexuality or gender. Some figure out stuff early, others don't, for whatever reason. Sometimes i reckon people know something is wrong or different but lack knowledge or words to articulate it. (Note my realization above. Just took 26 years, if counting from birth makes sense in stuff like this.)

 

[SolicitorPirate]

One of my enduring frustrations with GAF has been how often we fail to apply our liberal beliefs when it comes to trans people. Really hoping things like this thread help change that

 

[driggonny]

Did you figure out that you're trans or what? If you don't mind me asking.

Yeah, I think I am. It's hard to explain, but the feelings were always there and I just never put two and two together.