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[Trup1aya]

Market has also changed since 2007. Thats like releasing a movie that was shot and made in 2007, but releasing it now when it may or may not be relevant anymore. Theres more to it then just: It was popular so it works. Timing of stuff is important.

It was popular then with people now who have kids and families and are in their 30 to late 30s. That doesn't mean their kids are gonna like it and so on. Its a new generation that play and buy games now and they might not love that game from 2007 like you did just like they rarely watch old movies because they're 'old'. Its not complicated to understand. Youre not selling Halo to the same people in 2017.

Where is the proof that the market didn't want a halo 3 style game after halo3?

There.is.none.

Why? Because no halo 3 style game has been released since then. They literally abandoned the style of the most popular game in the series and never looked back.

It's true, there's a chance that people might not love it. But they might! People in between 2010 and 2017 might have loved it too, but they didn't get a chance to.

There IS evidence that the market doesn't want these "modern" halo games though.

My point just flew past you, didn't it?

It's quite possible.

 

[ResoRai]

I spent £200 on packs like a cunt

Lol I mean you are the reason why people who don't spend anything get free content aswell. I dont think I could spend that much tho. I've only spent around $20 or $30 on lootboxes in Overwatch I think.

 

[Deadstar]

Most of the Halo 5 DLC is horrible. I'd rather buy map packs then play on the free ones provided by 343.

Req packs are okay, but mostly made for the boring warzone mode.

Absolutely. I haven't checked back in a long time but those forge map dlc packs were a slap in the face. They do away with paid map packs and they replace the content with something that took little effort to create compared to legendary maps of the past like Valhalla and things of that nature. How far Halo has fallen.

 

[Trup1aya]

[1] No. I specifically said improve. The better something is, the more difficult it becomes to improve on it. This does somewhat apply to what you believed I meant however, as the better something is, I'd argue the more difficult any innovations will be seen as improvements also. I'm not saying it's easier for the underdog. I'm saying the underdog would likely have always been someone else if the others weren't underperforming originally.... that Halo and COD could be exactly as good as each other, and most would then choose COD.

[2] I'm not arguing that they couldn't have added them. For example, I'm saying that Warzone would count as one such innovation for example. I'm just saying that what makes Destiny's setup work isn't directly replicable for Halo, because the unification of everything is part of why it works for Destiny.

[3] Well, in this case, Spotify and Last.fm also show that almost nobody's listening to that artists previous hits either, even in comparison to the blues-pop releases.

[4] Obviously a game being "good" (which Halo 5 is, let's not get silly) makes success more likely, but there's pretty much no form of entertainment media where I'd say it even begins to approach being the largest contributing factor to success. And whilst Halo CE mechanically simpler than Overwatch, that doesn't necessarily make it more accessible. Two human players can play an incredibly complex game (let's say they're part of a Smash Bros 4 player FFA) and owing to them both lacking in ability, they'll never feel overwhelmed. On the other hand, two weak players can play something comparatively simple, but due to the consistency that even a small difference in ability manifests as a win or loss for each player, one of them is very likely to become discouraged very quickly. Halo CE I would argue today is the Halo game most likely to cause this.

[1] so COD is somehow predisposed to find successful/marketable innovations, because halo already used up its all its innovations after 3 entries? COD (mostly) improved year after year, from 2003 when it was created until 2009 when it finally released a title that Halo couldn't top. Then IMO it (mostly) continued to improve until 2012 when Blops2 launched. The only limitation is creativity. I can't think of why Halo would run out of good ideas so quickly compared to everyone else other than some of the ideas they thought were good, weren't.
[2] I don't think Halo would have needed Destiny's setup to offer a compelling co-op experience. I think halo's core gameplay has always lent itself well to cooperative experiences and expanding that into a fully baked shared-world experience would have been a natural and well received progression of the series' core principles- I think Bungie knew this (which is how Reach lead them to make Destiny) and I also think 343 knew this, which is (why they made Spartan Ops). I think both companies whiffed on the execution, because Bungie shouldn't have incorporated this experiment into the main MP modes, and Spartan Ops felt like a sick afterthought rather than something that anyone at the studio actually believed in.
[3] so because people aren't still playing H3, no one ever wanted an H3 style sequel?....
I guess no one actually wants half-life 3 either. If they did they'd be playing half life 2 instead of buying all these other games that have come out since then.

I wonder if that's their logic. "It's been 7 years Since halo3 was number 1... even though no one has made a game remotely similar, it's safe to say no one likes that kind of thing any mores"
[4] let me be clear. I like Halo5 a lot. I've spent more time playing halo 5 than any other game ever, and I wasn't married with a kid when H2 game out.

that said, I think it's an inferior game to h2 (and 3 which I didn't even like that much) Its much less accessible do to the convoluted control scheme that exists as a result of the insistence on modern movement, it butchers the run&gun nature that defined the series in favor of a run OR gun playstyle that works better with lower TTKs, it carries on the weapon balancing issues that Bungie created- but Bungie was quicker to release playlists that addressed those issues. It still pales in comparison the the content Bungie had made standard, and it still has gamebreaking bugs like ghost melee and heavy aim. I think H5 is much better than Reach and H4 in terms of how it plays. But the overall package is worse than both games... which helps to make it worse than its competition.

You are correct, being good is not all it takes to be successful. But it's a key component. I think Halo's efforts to be similar to other shooters has made it a worse game. And being worse has made it harder for Halo to stand out and compete against the rest of the market.

 

[SatansReverence]

Don't you look foolish now.

I've seen that post and I've already gave my self stitches laughing at that post.

I would actually love to see what ever hilariously ass backwards metric 343 tried to use to claim that.

Halo Reach was peaking over 100k players online over a year after launch. Halo 5 was losing to BF4 when BF4 was pulling maybe 40-50k players 8 months after launch. Now it's losing to Black Ops 2 which launched in 2012 and it's a struggle to even find games in Matchmaking at times.

So no, Halo 5 hasn't get the best player retention compared to anything except MAYBE Halo 4.

 

[VincentMatts]

Either way I don't have much hope anymore. I don't think 343 have it in them. I think they're a good studio at best but expected to deliver incredible results and I just don't see it happening with halo 6. I expect another good enough game filled with problems.

There's two things that I just could not handle and they actually did them to me: Destroyed BTB, my favorite game mode and filled it with Forge maps which I absolutely despise.

I'm expecting more of the same the next game

 

[Synth]

[1] so COD is somehow predisposed to find successful/marketable innovations, because halo already used up its all its innovations after 3 entries? COD (mostly) improved year after year, from 2003 when it was created until 2009 when it finally released a title that Halo couldn't top. Then IMO it (mostly) continued to improve until 2012 when Blops2 launched. The only limitation is creativity. I can't think of why Halo would run out of good ideas so quickly compared to everyone else other than some of the ideas they thought were good, weren't.

[1] No. I don't think CODs innovations have much to do with its continued success to put it simply. I believe the game just needed to become as good as Halo, to effectively inherit its title.. and owing to numerous other factors (such as being available on all platforms, making it naturally more widely discussed amongst peers), it's had little trouble maintaining that status. Many of EA's sports properties for example are hardly the shining examples of constant innovation, but do you think something not branded FIFA is going to knock their game off its perch simply by being as good or even a little better? No... you'd have to be worlds better (like Pro Evo used to be) to overcome its natural advantages. COD, Battlefield and even stuff like Medal Of Honor always had natural advantages in the market over Halo... but Halo previously was just so much better it overcompensated for them. That's as much in the hands of those games as it ever was in Halo's, much like Pro Evo's success would essentially be reliant on the failures of FIFA.

[2] I don't think Halo would have needed Destiny's setup to offer a compelling co-op experience. I think halo's core gameplay has always lent itself well to cooperative experiences and expanding that into a fully baked shared-world experience would have been a natural and well received progression of the series' core principles- I think Bungie knew this (which is how Reach lead them to make Destiny) and I also think 343 knew this, which is (why they made Spartan Ops). I think both companies whiffed on the execution, because Bungie shouldn't have incorporated this experiment into the main MP modes, and Spartan Ops felt like a sick afterthought rather than something that anyone at the studio actually believed in.

[2] We may as well drop this point tbh. You see the unification of the SP and MP as a fumble on Bungie's part. I see it as the reason Destiny is what it is. There's not really any way for us to move forward here, as a Halo equivalent doesn't exist. I agree that Spartan Ops is too phoned in to be a decent counter-argument.. but then, I'd probably argue the same with Destiny's entire initial campaign tbh, and that never stopped it snowballing at the time...

[3] so because people aren't still playing H3, no one ever wanted an H3 style sequel?....
I guess no one actually wants half-life 3 either. If they did they'd be playing half life 2 instead of buying all these other games that have come out since then.

I wonder if that's their logic. "It's been 7 years Since halo3 was number 1... even though no one has made a game remotely similar, it's safe to say no one likes that kind of thing any mores"

[3] I'm mostly approaching this from the angle of older CODs surviving past newer releases regardless. Other examples I can think of would have been Quake games through each release (as a contingency of each game's fanbase would typically despise the changes of each sequel), or Counter-Strike 1.6 when Source sucked. Halo's fanbase however moved onto entirely different IPs rather than continue to play the previous entries in any available form. This isn't really applicable to a story-driven single player FPS... but even then... Half-Life 2 is really not the best example to bring up here. (check "Audience in 2 Weeks").

[4]...

You are correct, being good is not all it takes to be successful. But it's a key component. I think Halo's efforts to be similar to other shooters has made it worse. And being worse has made it harder for Halo to stand out and compete against the rest of the market.

[4] Obviously is pretty subjective as to what's better or worse (I think every Halo prior to 5 is worse than it for example), but Halo 5 isn't competing against Halo 3. It's competing against Overwatch, Destiny, COD, Battelfield, etc. As per point [1], I feel that it's not "being worse" that's causing Halo to struggle to stand out.. it's everything else it competes against being a ton better than they were before. It's a lot easier to stand out as the big fish in a small pond before all the other fish get big too.

I've seen that post and I've already gave my self stitches laughing at that post.

I would actually love to see what ever hilariously ass backwards metric 343 tried to use to claim that.

Halo Reach was peaking over 100k players online over a year after launch. Halo 5 was losing to BF4 when BF4 was pulling maybe 40-50k players 8 months after launch. Now it's losing to Black Ops 2 which launched in 2012 and it's a struggle to even find games in Matchmaking at times.

So no, Halo 5 hasn't get the best player retention compared to anything except MAYBE Halo 4.

Retention would be based on a percentage. So If Halo Reach had started with say 250k and dropped to 100k, whilst Halo 5 had started with 80k and dropped to 40k, then 1 out of every 2 Halo 5 players stuck around, whilst less than that did for Reach. It's not a terribly useful metric (though apparently Halo 5's playerbase was also growing), but it's hardly something that's hilariously unbelievable. You're arguing with absolute values that aren't really relevant to on their own to player retention.. else Halo 5 could have started with 90k users, then had 95k users 8 months later, and you'd still argue that Reach had better player retention.

Also.. every single game in the genre is losing to Black Ops II on XBL right now...

 

[RichiRamjag]

Either way I don't have much hope anymore. I don't think 343 have it in them. I think they're a good studio at best but expected to deliver incredible results and I just don't see it happening with halo 6. I expect another good enough game filled with problems.

There's two things that I just could not handle and they actually did them to me: Destroyed BTB, my favorite game mode and filled it with Forge maps which I absolutely despise.

I'm expecting more of the same the next game

It's like I said earlier. If they pull the same shit with BTB come 6, I'm done with the series. I was hooked on that BTB since the laggy days of halo 2 BTB lol. Really disappointed in how they managed it in V.

 

[E92 M3]

After 530+ days, just like it took them 550+ days to fully acknowledge that there is indeed an issue with heavy aiming and that they have a fix coming Soon™.

People don't even know how Pros got treated before that. 343i pulled stuff like giving pros a multiple choice answer with 3 options that were all considered bad by pros and they still made them pick 1. Afterwards they said: "We gathered Pro Feedback and this is what they want."

I actually think that Bungie did a smart move by not intervening with the competetive crowd. People loved what MLG did for Halo. They loved the gametypes, the map settings and of course the several tournaments. With 343i and ESL it's just one issue after an other.

Yes, they take FOREVER to do the small change. And don't get me started on how they treated pro suggestions and the "league" itself.

That's a different argument though, one that's not necessarily fair anyway. You can't fault 343 for trying to make autos competitively viable, not to mention they're actively trying to balance them further for all levels of play.

This is an argument that conflates some issues imo. Halo 5 has several options to cater to all communities, both at launch and even moreso now with additions like the customs browser. How can you say otherwise when Warzone is the antithesis to an esports scene? Just because they focused more on the competitive community compared to previous games DOES NOT MEAN they focused they focused "too much" on it.

They didn't try to do anything. They left tons of OP weapons littering the map when everyone was begging them to remove. And Warzone only exists so people will purchase REQ packs. It's a shit mode.

Absolutely. I haven't checked back in a long time but those forge map dlc packs were a slap in the face. They do away with paid map packs and they replace the content with something that took little effort to create compared to legendary maps of the past like Valhalla and things of that nature. How far Halo has fallen.

It has been very upsetting to see where Halo is now.

--

343 takes esports seriously:

 

[Kill3r7]

I've seen that post and I've already gave my self stitches laughing at that post.

I would actually love to see what ever hilariously ass backwards metric 343 tried to use to claim that.

Halo Reach was peaking over 100k players online over a year after launch. Halo 5 was losing to BF4 when BF4 was pulling maybe 40-50k players 8 months after launch. Now it's losing to Black Ops 2 which launched in 2012 and it's a struggle to even find games in Matchmaking at times.

So no, Halo 5 hasn't get the best player retention compared to anything except MAYBE Halo 4.

The post is not necessarily incorrect. If you start will a lower number of player and keep them than your retention rate is better than a previous game which might have started with a larger user base but lost more users MoM.

It's like I said earlier. If they pull the same shit with BTB come 6, I'm done with the series. I was hooked on that BTB since the laggy days of halo 2 BTB lol. Really disappointed in how they managed it in V.

I think we have discussed this before but 343 was trying to use modes like BTB as a way to retain players. By dripping content along they could retain players longer, theoretically.

 

[Cranster]

My response to both of you: Right, so why not complain about too much focus being put on a new, unproven mode like Warzone (a casual mode that probably received more attention than anything in competitive) then instead of something where there's an active community that's been begging for years to receive the slightest attention?

Nobody was asking 343i to sacrifice BTB, Forge and other gamemodes in favor of Warzone. At the sametime the MLG/competitive community has and always will be a vocal minority of the player population.

Halo made MLG popular, not the otherway around.

 

[RichiRamjag]

The post is not necessarily incorrect. If you start will a lower number of player and keep them than your retention rate is better than a previous game which might have started with a larger user base but lost more users MoM.



I think we have discussed this before but 343 was trying to use modes like BTB as a way to retain players. By dripping content along they could retain players longer, theoretically.

I've actually never heard that. Thanks for sharing.

It's not true either - considering BTB was released in Dec., not exactly a great way to retain your players across several months.

Haha. Yeah, it was December actually. Forgot all about that.

 

[Roaringburn]

I've actually never heard that. Thanks for sharing.

It's not true either - considering BTB was released in Dec., not exactly a great way to retain your players across several months.

 

[Cranster]

I've actually never heard that. Thanks for sharing.



Haha. Yeah, it was December actually. Forgot all about that.

I'm pretty sure that isn't true. From my understanding they simply didn't have everything running on the newly upgraded engine on time as they prioritized the new gameplay mechanics, 60FPS. Arena/Breakout and Warzone.

 

[Pat]

At first I thought MT was a DLC name, it took me a while to understand what you were talking about.
So for people as dumb as me:

MT = Microtransactions

Ah, thanks.

 

[Magwik]

343 takes esports seriously:

That's on ESL, not 343.

 

[Trup1aya]

[1] No. I don't think CODs innovations have much to do with its continued success to put it simply. I believe the game just needed to become as good as Halo, to effectively inherit its title.. and owing to numerous other factors (such as being available on all platforms, making it naturally more widely discussed amongst peers), it's had little trouble maintaining that status. Many of EA's sports properties for example are hardly the shining examples of constant innovation, but do you think something not branded FIFA is going to knock their game off its perch simply by being as good or even a little better? No... you'd have to be worlds better (like Pro Evo used to be) to overcome its natural advantages. COD, Battlefield and even stuff like Medal Of Honor always had natural advantages in the market over Halo... but Halo previously was just so much better it overcompensated for them. That's as much in the hands of those games as it ever was in Halo's, much like Pro Evo's success would essentially be reliant on the failures of FIFA.
[2] We may as well drop this point tbh. You see the unification of the SP and MP as a fumble on Bungie's part. I see it as the reason Destiny is what it is. There's not really any way for us to move forward here, as a Halo equivalent doesn't exist. I agree that Spartan Ops is too phoned in to be a decent counter-argument.. but then, I'd probably argue the same with Destiny's entire initial campaign tbh, and that never stopped it snowballing at the time...
[3] I'm mostly approaching this from the angle of older CODs surviving past newer releases regardless. Other examples I can think of would have been Quake games through each release (as a contingency of each game's fanbase would typically despise the changes of each sequel), or Counter-Strike 1.6 when Source sucked. Halo's fanbase however moved onto entirely different IPs rather than continue to play the previous entries in any available form. This isn't really applicable to a story-driven single player FPS... but even then... Half-Life 2 is really not the best example to bring up here. (check "Audience in 2 Weeks").
[4] Obviously is pretty subjective as to what's better or worse (I think every Halo prior to 5 is worse than it for example), but Halo 5 isn't competing against Halo 3. It's competing against Overwatch, Destiny, COD, Battelfield, etc. As per point [1], I feel that it's not "being worse" that's causing Halo to struggle to stand out.. it's everything else it competes against being a ton better than they were before. It's a lot easier to stand out as the big fish in a small pond before all the other fish get big too.

Retention would be based on a percentage. So If Halo Reach had started with say 250k and dropped to 100k, whilst Halo 5 had started with 80k and dropped to 40k, then 1 out of every 2 Halo 5 players stuck around, whilst less than that did for Reach. It's not a terribly useful metric (though apparently Halo 5's playerbase was also growing), but it's hardly something that's hilariously unbelievable. You're arguing with absolute values that aren't really relevant to on their own to player retention.. else Halo 5 could have started with 90k users, then had 95k users 8 months later, and you'd still argue that Reach had better player retention.

Also.. every single game in the genre is losing to Black Ops II on XBL right now...

[1] I think that's crazy. COD is the success it is because of the hardwork of the developers did to refine its formula into something that compels people to play year after year. COD2 was a good shooter. MW was a better shooter, with an approach to player progression that kept people coming back for more. It's campaign pushed the envelop, delivering an unprecedented Hollywood presentation. It was simply groundbreaking. They later went on to add things like zombies, which has taken on a life of its own (something that I think could have happened for Firefight if it was treated properly) I think many of the games after that were less innovative, but they didn't have to be. They simply continued to refine the experience that was proven successful. Lately, COD hasn't been innovating or refining- they've been following, and their sales have declined- sounds familiar. Sure having a strong brand helps with sales, but CODs brand was built from the ground up- just like Halo. COD1 sold like 1.75m copies. It's nothing like FIFA or Madden that are examples of buying success. I think your comments are woefully unfair to COD. I don't think COD being multiplat explains it outselling or being more popular than Halo on Xbox. When Halo was better than COD, it sold more than COD on Xbox. When Halo stopped being better the positions changed.
[2] no that's not what I'm saying. I see that unification as something that worked well for Destiny. I don't believe that would have been NECCISARY for a shared world halo experience to work. Halo fans are proven to be open to disparate experiences
[3] I don't think that's really a fair comparison, COD is annual. So if a new release is bad the previous release is still fresh and viable. After 3 years of halo, fans were foaming at the mouth for something new, and couldn't help but soak up the next thing.

We also need to be clear, that a lot of people were fans of both Halo AND COD (and battlefield too) And contributed to the the popularity of both franchises. So when Halo started offering less desirable experiences, it really wasn't a matter of players leaving Halo and picking up something else. It was a matter of continuing to buy the games that are meeting expectations... but halo didn't fit that description.

[4] ofcourse its subjective, but what isn't is the fact that Halo has been failing to compete since it changed its formula.. All of the games you mentioned are competing against each other. Rainbow 6 is also competing with COD and BF and Overwatch and Destiny and Halo... yet it sits above Halo. The level of competition isn't an excuse because they all are subject to each other. It's simply a failure to innovate in exciting ways in this space.

 

[Orochinagis]

Yeah, several maps, modes, weapons, enemies, game types, huge forge updates, and a PC forge.

You'll get forge and you'll like it. What a racket.

Thats pretty cool, i was expecting something worse like Destiny MTs which didnt helped the game at all but fill Bungie with money

 

[Mooreberg]

What's up with all the bullshit about Halo 3 player retention and performance? Have folks forgotten this quickly or are they just making shit up? Here are the most popular games of 2009 on XBL as posted by Major Nelson. That is in fact 2009, not a typo. Halo 3 was in the top 3 most played XBL games for nearly 3 years running.

https://majornelson.com/2010/01/11/the-top-20-live-games-of-2009/

This isn't the best argument for how or why Halo stopped being the top shooter on Xbox 360. If COD4 wasn't followed up by a WW2 game, the whole player base would have migrated, as they did with MW2. There were more people playing COD well before Halo 4 came out, it was just split into two camps prior to 1887 dual wielding hacks and game ending nukes.

 

[A.J.]

"Game where you have no ceiling on how much you can spend on content makes more than game that has a ceiling on how much you can spend."

And yet the maps they have made for the game haven't reached the quality of 3's map packs.

 

[Trup1aya]

This isn't the best argument for how or why Halo stopped being the top shooter on Xbox 360. If COD4 wasn't followed up by a WW2 game, the whole player base would have migrated, as they did with MW2. There were more people playing COD well before Halo 4 came out, it was just split into two camps prior to 1887 dual wielding hacks and game ending nukes.

If Halo 3 wasn't followed up by a game that made a mockery of the even starts arena gameplay the series was known for its whole player base would have migrated to and stuck with Reach...

 

[Andodalf]

"Game where you have no ceiling on how much you can spend on content makes more than game that has a ceiling on how much you can spend."

And yet the maps they have made for the game haven't reached the quality of 3's map packs.

But they've far outpaced it in terms of game types, weapons, enemies, vehicles, armours, and incredible forge updates. All things Halo 3 had very little post-launch support in. Which was clearly their focus.

 

[Trup1aya]

"Game where you have no ceiling on how much you can spend on content makes more than game that has a ceiling on how much you can spend."

And yet the maps they have made for the game haven't reached the quality of 3's map packs.

The money they made from req packs didn't influence the quality of the maps (why would it?)

The money they made from req packs made Free DLC finacially viable

H3's DLC maps were not better BECAUSE of the business model. It's because the map designers did a better job.

 

[Akai__]

But they've far outpaced it in terms of game types, weapons, enemies, vehicles, armours, and incredible forge updates. All things Halo 3 had very little post-launch support in. Which was clearly their focus.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with lots of this in this post.

Game Types: In what world has Halo 5 outpaced Halo 3 in terms of Game Types? Can you list any Game Types that are in Halo 5, but not in Halo 3? Because outside of Warzone, I can't think of any. We are also 1 1/2 years into Halo 5 and Competetive Halo is still at 3 Game Types. They just recently updated BTB with the Assault Game Type, too.

Enemies: Halo 3 didn't have a Warzone mode, so the comparison in MP would be pretty unfair. However, in SP the Enemy Design, AI/Behaviour and variety is much better than anything I have played in Halo 5. Prometheans are like the worst thing that happened to Halo, especially in SP. Bad behaviour, bad design and just not fun at all. Even the Grunts, Jackals and Elites are not what they used to be. The redesigns are just so ugly.

Vehicles: Lets completely ignore that Halo 3 was the last game that actually had a good vehicle balance. Banshees couldn't do these insane evade flips or use the Banshee bomb every second, Scorpions were actually controlling like a dream AND Halo 3 had the Brute Chopper and the Hornet, which are still 2 of the best vehicles introduced to the Halo vehicle sandbox.

The vehicles in Halo 5 are just terribly balanced and there are too many variations of the same vehicle. Even the Wasp is just an other model of the Phaeton. There is no innovation, just different reskinned vehicles.

Armor: This is a topic that is heavily depending on people's taste, but I much more preferred the armor in Halo 3

Spoiler

and in Halo Reach

. They were all clean/simple designs and not too fancy. They just had that unique Halo look, which I really can't say about most of the Halo 5 Armor/Helmets. Out of 400+ Armor/Helmets, there are only a handful of designs, that I'd actually apply to my Spartan Model. Most of these are also old Bungie Designs. Really not a fan of the Power Ranger style that 343i has.

Forge: This is completely correct and it's by far the most outstanding thing that 343i has done in Halo 5, at least for me. The things that you can do with Forge these days are insane. The Forge Team did a really good job with it and they deserve any promotion that they got. Hope they keep innovating on it.

 

[Outrun]

Where is the proof that the market didn't want a halo 3 style game after halo3?

There.is.none.

Why? Because no halo 3 style game has been released since then. They literally abandoned the style of the most popular game in the series and never looked back.

It's true, there's a chance that people might not love it. But they might! People in between 2010 and 2017 might have loved it too, but they didn't get a chance to.

There IS evidence that the market doesn't want these "modern" halo games though.



It's quite possible.

From reading what you just wrote, it just seems that there is no evidence either way for either issue.

Pachter just showed Halo 5 success on the MT front. The population is healthy for a year old game.

 

[JaggedSac]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with lots of this in this post.

Game Types:Can you list any Game Types that are in Halo 5, but not in Halo 3?

Warzone Firefight, Warzone Assault, Warzone, Breakout

 

[Akai__]

Warzone Firefight, Warzone Assault, Warzone, Breakout

My post says outside of Warzone.

I can replicate Breakout in Halo 3, too.

 

[JaggedSac]

My post says outside of Warzone.

I can replicate Breakout in Halo 3, too.

Yeah, I guess you have a point, outside of the game types that 343 spent a rather large amount of time and dev resources on, Halo 3 had more game types

Breakout without sprint and thrust seems like it would be poop to be honest.

 

[Forerunner]

Breakout is garbage anyways. They tried to push it so hard, but they failed to realize players don’t want that type of gameplay. The pros hated it and so did the players. Then instead of putting resources into things that matter. They double down and did this huge update to Breakout. Guess what? It still fucking sucked.

I mean I appreciate them trying new things, but don't keep going when it’s obviously not popular.

 

[E92 M3]

That's on ESL, not 343.

Who do you think makes the final decisions? It's all 343. ESL sucks too, but it's mostly 343.

 

[Poster#1]

That's on ESL, not 343.

Certainly someone from 343 had to approve it.

 

[mcrommert]

Lol so much salt in this thread

Halo is dad

 

[mcrommert]

Yeah, I guess you have a point, outside of the game types that 343 spent a rather large amount of time and dev resources on, Halo 3 had more game types

Breakout without sprint and thrust seems like it would be poop to be honest.

Breakout was work it for elimination

Hopefully it is a day one Playlist in halo 6

 

[Kill3r7]

This isn't the best argument for how or why Halo stopped being the top shooter on Xbox 360. If COD4 wasn't followed up by a WW2 game, the whole player base would have migrated, as they did with MW2. There were more people playing COD well before Halo 4 came out, it was just split into two camps prior to 1887 dual wielding hacks and game ending nukes.

That is not what I was arguing. Many posters in this thread were literally making shit up about Halo 3's player retention and performance. I simply just wanted to set the record straight on its performance. Ethomaz did something similar about folks talking about COD's popularity. I do agree that in 2009 the pendulum was definitely swinging in favor of COD but it also did not help that Bungie/343 did the franchise no favors.

 

[Septic360]

Lol I mean you are the reason why people who don't spend anything get free content aswell. I dont think I could spend that much tho. I've only spent around $20 or $30 on lootboxes in Overwatch I think.

So....in fact...im ....a hero?

I'm a hero!

 

[JaggedSac]

Breakout was work it for elimination

Hopefully it is a day one Playlist in halo 6

I enjoyed it every now and then. Certainly a different feel than other modes.

 

[Trup1aya]

1)From reading what you just wrote, it just seems that there is no evidence either way for either issue.

2) Pachter just showed Halo 5 success on the MT front.

3)The population is healthy for a year old game.

1) how so? Halo was seeing explosive growth and unprecedented longevity up until Bungie completely discarded its core design principles. The evidence clearly shows this decision didn't help Halo stay competitive in the market

2) I'm glad, as I view this a a superior business model in comparison to paid DLC maps. That said, Halo's potential is limited by its installed base. If the game was more popular, there would be more MT purchases.

3) define healthy. this is the first game in the series where there is no way to publically monitor population (why is this?). High level players struggle to find matches. Many Australians can't even use MM. Same in some Latin American countries. Europeans are always complaining about playing against Americans. Americans are always complaining about playing Mexicans. not to mention, there are several FPS that are older than H5, that have much larger populations. It also has a smaller population at this point in its cycle than any other halo game, except H4 (which isn't saying much)

I like Halo 5. But I don't understand the sense that Halo's decline needs to defended or rationalized. There were simply a bunch of misteps over the last 7 years compounded by the fact that the competition was hitting full stride.

Everyone keeps arguing there's more competition, but The truth is : there has been a massive consolidation in the number of FPS franchises since 2007. This should have meant an opportunity to grow for any remaining franchises. Somehow Halo managed to completely miss that boat.

 

[Outrun]

1) how so? Halo was seeing explosive growth and unprecedented longevity up until Bungie completely discarded its core design principles. The evidence clearly shows this decision didn't help Halo stay competitive in the market

2) I'm glad, as I view this a a superior business model in comparison to paid DLC maps. That said, Halo's potential is limited by its installed base. If the game was more popular, there would be more MT purchases.

3) define healthy. this is the first game in the series where there is no way to publically monitor population (why is this?). High level players struggle to find matches. Many Australians can't even use MM. Same in some Latin American countries. Europeans are always complaining about playing against Americans. Americans are always complaining about playing Mexicans. not to mention, there are several FPS that are older than H5, that have much larger populations. It also has a smaller population at this point in its cycle than any other halo game, except H4 (which isn't saying much)

I like Halo 5. But I don't understand the sense that Halo's decline needs to defended or rationalized. There were simply a bunch of misteps while the competition was hitting full stride.

Fair points.

But having a larger MP base than H4 is saying that 343i are improving.

I think that 343i are on an upward trajectory with Halo.

 

[Trup1aya]

Fair points.

But having a larger MP base than H4 is saying that 343i are improving.

I think that 343i are on an upward trajectory with Halo.

I hope you are right. But I think they need to rethink how the approach assessibilty. Locomotion in the game is too complex- and it ties into combat in ways that are difficult to digest when compared to other shooters.

Halo needs to go back to being simple pick up and play, yet deep for those who choose to stick it out. This game has raised the skill floor and lowered ceiling- contricting it's appeal to the wider market. That coupled with a bad campaign narrative and strange bugs stunted its potential.

They also need an exciting new innovation that pushes the genre forward. Warzone has potential, but the execution isn't quite there.

The only thing Halo back is Halo. If Halo 6 launches with an amazing, unforgettable campaign, and a MP suite that folks don't wanna miss and can't get enough of, it'll sell boat loads- regardless of what the competition is doing.

PS: I'd say H5 is an improvement on H4 (and reach) even if it didn't have the population. Those games were, at least, more accessible, content complete, had local MP, better campaigns,and didn't have ridiculous bugs.

So some improvement has been made, but also some steps back.

 

[Novocaine]

Fair points.

But having a larger MP base than H4 is saying that 343i are improving.

I think that 343i are on an upward trajectory with Halo.

Couldn't agree more. I am not all that fond of 4 and even though 5's campaign has problems it's still mechanically fun to play. There is the potential for 6 to knock it out of the park.

 

[Forerunner]

Fair points.

But having a larger MP base than H4 is saying that 343i are improving.

I think that 343i are on an upward trajectory with Halo.

343i is definitely improving. H5 is a significant improvement over H4 in almost every way (maybe not story). H5 is a great game, it just has some really little annoying shit that adds up and ruins the experience. Also 343i's communication needs a lot of work.

Personally, I'm excited to see what they do with H6. If they keep learning from their mistakes (and it seems like they are) then H6 should be one of the best games in the series.

 

[Monocle]

The maps could certainly be better, but I love how the player population is no longer split up by map packs.

Fair points.

But having a larger MP base than H4 is saying that 343i are improving.

I think that 343i are on an upward trajectory with Halo.

This is self-evident to anyone who isn't nursing the weird kind of grudge that leads people to spout foolishness like Halo 5's MP is worse than Reach's, or that Halo 4 is substantially better than Halo 5.

 

[VincentMatts]

My post says outside of Warzone.

I can replicate Breakout in Halo 3, too.

Outside of warzone why? That IS their innovation. Just cause bungie never did it doesnt mean we can take away the good things 343 HAVE done.

 

[Complicated]

It was not even close. COD4 lifetime only sold around 4 million on 360. Halo 3 sold 14+ million. I would guess outside of GTAV, Minecraft and maybe Kinect Adventures not much else beat it.

I'm not referring to lifetime sales. Not really relevant in the discussion of how the games performed when they launched.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Lol so much salt in this thread

Halo is dad

What's the need for this? Majority of us critiquing the game agree that it's still one of the better games out there. Halo 5 was a disappointment only in comparison to past games for many of us. It's still a good game though.

 

[Zeta Oni]

I honestly believe its a case of what a Halo game is, as a whole, 343i have yet to deliver a product that gets it all right.

Its not just a great story with mysterious alien structures, wide open spaces and intelligent A.I.
Its not just tactical combat with vehicles, shields, and 2 weapon carry
Its not just the co-op playthorughs, or LASO runs
Its not just a balanced multiplayer, fun game modes, and even starts
Its not just Master Chief & Cortana
Its not just BTB, Infection, Forge or Firefight (or now even Warzone)

It is now all of these things, and failure on any one part negatively impacts every other part. Halo is THE MS franchise. Its why we even have Xbox in the first place. If there's any game series that absolutely needs to launch with everything both top in quality and complete at launch, its Halo.

That said, like mentioned above, I have some faith Halo 6 could be the one. A lot of Halo 5 issues were less mechanical and more content related (or the lack of it in this scenario). Short forgettable story, severe lack of maps and modes at launch, missing forge, etc. All signs of troubled development that i don't think will be happening this time around.

 

[Giftofgab24]

And yet it means nothing because nobody plays it. The biggest title on the console usually hovers somewhere around number 20 on the most played leaderboard.

If nobody is playing it, who's buying the card packs? Your argument is seriously flawed.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with lots of this in this post.

Game Types: In what world has Halo 5 outpaced Halo 3 in terms of Game Types? Can you list any Game Types that are in Halo 5, but not in Halo 3? Because outside of Warzone, I can't think of any. We are also 1 1/2 years into Halo 5 and Competetive Halo is still at 3 Game Types. They just recently updated BTB with the Assault Game Type, too.

Enemies: Halo 3 didn't have a Warzone mode, so the comparison in MP would be pretty unfair. However, in SP the Enemy Design, AI/Behaviour and variety is much better than anything I have played in Halo 5. Prometheans are like the worst thing that happened to Halo, especially in SP. Bad behaviour, bad design and just not fun at all. Even the Grunts, Jackals and Elites are not what they used to be. The redesigns are just so ugly.

Vehicles: Lets completely ignore that Halo 3 was the last game that actually had a good vehicle balance. Banshees couldn't do these insane evade flips or use the Banshee bomb every second, Scorpions were actually controlling like a dream AND Halo 3 had the Brute Chopper and the Hornet, which are still 2 of the best vehicles introduced to the Halo vehicle sandbox.

The vehicles in Halo 5 are just terribly balanced and there are too many variations of the same vehicle. Even the Wasp is just an other model of the Phaeton. There is no innovation, just different reskinned vehicles.

Armor: This is a topic that is heavily depending on people's taste, but I much more preferred the armor in Halo 3

Spoiler

and in Halo Reach

. They were all clean/simple designs and not too fancy. They just had that unique Halo look, which I really can't say about most of the Halo 5 Armor/Helmets. Out of 400+ Armor/Helmets, there are only a handful of designs, that I'd actually apply to my Spartan Model. Most of these are also old Bungie Designs. Really not a fan of the Power Ranger style that 343i has.

Forge: This is completely correct and it's by far the most outstanding thing that 343i has done in Halo 5, at least for me. The things that you can do with Forge these days are insane. The Forge Team did a really good job with it and they deserve any promotion that they got. Hope they keep innovating on it.

I agree with everything you said except for vehicles in H3. I hated vehicles in H3, though probably for completely different reasons lol. The vehicles in H3 were far too hard to take out unless you were in another vehicle or happened to be running around with a power weapon. Which made every map with vehicles an absolute annoyance and frustration to play - and BTB used to be my favorite gametype. I despise that kind of garbo in an fps like Halo. Feels too much like Twisted Metal instead of Halo. People in vehicles just drive around taking advantage of everyone on foot. It would take 2 sometimes 3 stickies to take out a warthog. WTF is that? One should be enough or at least enough to flip the warthog and force the occupants to have to regroup. But whatever. Sorry, I'm still bitter about H3 after all these years lol. OP vehicles, BR spread, and a laughable pistol just burned me. I still had a lot of fun playing H3, but man I was pissed at Bungie.

 

[Akai__]

I agree with everything you said except for vehicles in H3. I hated vehicles in H3, though probably for completely different reasons lol. The vehicles in H3 were far too hard to take out unless you were in another vehicle or happened to be running around with a power weapon. Which made every map with vehicles an absolute annoyance and frustration to play - and BTB used to be my favorite gametype. I despise that kind of garbo in an fps like Halo. Feels too much like Twisted Metal instead of Halo. People in vehicles just drive around taking advantage of everyone on foot. It would take 2 sometimes 3 stickies to take out a warthog. WTF is that? One should be enough or at least enough to flip the warthog and force the occupants to have to regroup. But whatever. Sorry, I'm still bitter about H3 after all these years lol. OP vehicles, BR spread, and a laughable pistol just burned me. I still had a lot of fun playing H3, but man I was pissed at Bungie.

I hate vehicles in Halo 5 way more, but your reasoning seems fair enough.

Outside of warzone why? That IS their innovation. Just cause bungie never did it doesnt mean we can take away the good things 343 HAVE done.

Outside of Warzone, because I actually acknowledge that it's a new Gametype.

Not saying that we should ignore it.

 

[SatansReverence]

This is self-evident to anyone who isn't nursing the weird kind of grudge that leads people to spout foolishness like Halo 5's MP is worse than Reach's, or that Halo 4 is substantially better than Halo 5.

Halo 5s Multiplayer being better than Halo 4 or Halo Reachs base(ZBNS Reach shits on Halo 5 from a great height) multiplayer is not in any way some sort of major accomplishment. A 5 year old could have designed better multiplayer than H4 and base Reach.

And at the end of the day, it's not even Halo anymore. (inb4 jem)

ADS, Sprint, the endlessly failing experiment of "enhanced mobility". Halo 5 does NOT play like Halo. It's just a wanna be cod/titanfall with relatively slow kill times and that shows every single day with how pathetic the games population is.

I shouldn't be able to play black ops 2, searching for a good connection game and get into a match in seconds yet try playing Halo 5 on the "Just put me in a damn game" search preference and still have to restart the search several times.

Infact, the "balanced" (wtf was 343 thinking tying skill and connection together in search preferences? like wow...) search option in Halo 5 playing from Australia might as well be non existent. I think I've played 2 games in the last 6 months using that option. Every other game has been 200+ms pings which is by default a shit experience compounded by the poor gameplay of Halo 5.