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[clearestblue]

Common sense is too. Your comment says that women can only talk about that on events where only women are welcome. Ignoring the fact that women also appear at mixed events

I didn't say they can ONLY talk about that at events where only women are welcome. You're deliberately misreading what I said. I'm just saying that sometimes women just want to be LEFT THE FUCK ALONE you have to respect that. They want to hang out and network with other women. They want to play games with other women. Leave. Us. Alone.

jfc, Themyscira sounds more and more appealing every day.

 

[LotusHD]

You and other's keep saying that women's only events aren't solving the problem of misogyny.

So excuse me for thinking you believe we need to solve the problem of misogyny before we hang out with each other.

Again, really fucked up that female gamers are apparently not allowed to congregate unless the goal is to educate uninformed men...

 

[Xadjim]

You keep being obtuse just for the sake of it. Why is it that is so imperative that you are there? "Because I have the right" is not an answer. "Because otherwise it's sexist" isn't an answer./QUOTE]

Its really not important that "I" am there. I already said that this behaviour is contrary to what equality means. People who support these events have every right to do so but disqualify themselves from the equality discussion and should not expect that man only events should be open for everyone.

 

[Rookhelm]

To be honest, I am not really offended by the fact that there are these events. What I dont really like is the fact that people want equality but yet organize these events. Thats not equal and lets assume I would live nearby this event and would like to go there but couldnt.

It's not about you (or me)...and that's kinda the point.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

If you don't even want to see the problem with a group of mysoginist men rallying to boycott an event organized by women for women, which didn't concern them in the slightest, by harassing them and threatening to go to the place where it was taking place dressed as women... well, no, I won't explain the fucking to you.

Read the first post if you're so inclined to learn. But I honestly doubt it.

I know you're fired up (which is good) but you gotta read the post before you type a response. You took the wrong thing from it.

 

[MsVariant]

jfc, Themyscira sounds more and more appealing every day.

I know right, fuck that would be so cool.

 

[MazeHaze]

You keep being obtuse just for the sake of it. Why is it that is so imperative that you are there? "Because I have the right" is not an answer. "Because otherwise it's sexist" isn't an answer./QUOTE]

Its really not important that "I" am there. I already said that this behaviour is contrary to what equality means. People who support these events have every right to do so but disqualify themselves from the equality discussion and should not expect that man only events should be open for everyone.

I mean, when one gender has been historically oppressed by the other for centuries, men only and women only events are very different things. Maybe females want to be able to go talk about games industry without being called cutie, or told they should smile more, or be told they aren't real gamers, called sluts, bitches, etc. Get a clue.

 

[Xadjim]

I didn't say they can ONLY talk about that at events where only women are welcome. You're deliberately misreading what I said. I'm just saying that sometimes women just want to be LEFT THE FUCK ALONE you have to respect that. They want to hang out and network with other women. They want to play games with other women. Leave. Us. Alone.

jfc, Themyscira sounds more and more appealing every day.

Sure, whatever floats your goat but I didnt misread that you used the "Women want to talk to Women only"-argument to support the necassity of women only events since this is also possible when men are there aswell. I just cant take you seriously when you also expect equality from men.

I hope this makes sense to you.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Sure, whatever floats your goat but I didnt misread that you used the "Women want to talk to Women only"-argument to support the necassity of women only events. I just cant take you seriously when you also expect equality from men.

I hope this makes sense to you.

So explain to me how we achieve true equality.

 

[Not]

We need one of these in the states

Can you imagine a gaming event without any dudes anywhere

It's the closest thing to literal heaven on earth in my mind

 

[clearestblue]

Sure, whatever floats your goat but I didnt misread that you used the "Women want to talk to Women only"-argument to support the necassity of women only events since this is also possible when men are there aswell. I just cant take you seriously when you also expect equality from men.

I hope this makes sense to you.

It doesn't. Because again you're not understanding what I'm saying. You're so painfully male that I'm not going to bother anymore.

 

[MazeHaze]

Sure, whatever floats your goat but I didnt misread that you used the "Women want to talk to Women only"-argument to support the necassity of women only events since this is also possible when men are there aswell. I just cant take you seriously when you also expect equality from men.

I hope this makes sense to you.

That's a false equivalence though, because men can go to gaming events and never have to worry about females stalking them around, pinching their butts when theyre in cosplay, sexually harassing them, trying to pick them up and then calling them dumb whores when they get turned down, telling them they don't belong there...

 

[Not]

Sure, whatever floats your goat but I didnt misread that you used the "Women want to talk to Women only"-argument to support the necassity of women only events since this is also possible when men are there aswell. I just cant take you seriously when you also expect equality from men.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Dude, we need woman-only events because it only takes one of you to stand there and spout this stuff to ruin the whole thing

 

[Nepenthe]

Women's only events are a response to cultural misogyny.

If you advocate for or force these events to stop, the cultural misogyny will still continue because you never solved the fucking problem for why they were created in the first place.

If women's only events offend you, tell your fellow men to stop being misogynistic so we can join you guys without feeling like we're in a lion's den.

 

[Xadjim]

Maybe the fact that even having a women only event got it harassed out of existence is also related to why it was women only in the first place.

Somewhat true but you ignore the reason why people got offended by this in the first place.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

You're so painfully male that I'm not going to bother anymore.

I laughed at this.

 

[Icedburden]

Allow me to translate what you said :
There are far more people who are not bothered by harassers and prefer to keep quiet playing rather than talk shit. It's called the vocal minority backed by those who listen in silence in agreement.

WTF kind of fake philosophical garbage is this?
Theres no 'translation' needed. The number is greater of people who just chill and play a game than people who grief others.
Know what's wonderful about online? You can mute people who are annoying.
If you (or anyone) care about what some anonymous person says about you, or to you, online then I'm sorry to say you have some serious growing up to do.

 

[MazeHaze]

Somewhat true but you ignore the reason why people got offended by this in the first place.

The reason they get offended in the first place is because theyre ignorant and have no concept of what other gaming events are like for females.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Somewhat true but you ignore the reason why people got offended by this in the first place.

They got offended that they weren't allowed to go? Is being offended all it takes to justify ruining shit?

 

[Bahorel]

Somewhat true but you ignore the reason why people got offended by this in the first place.

"People"

You can say men you know

 

[Intel_89]

The internet tends to ruin everyones fun, it's a shame that such an event had to be cancelled because of a bunch of shithead trolls, hopefully they'll be able to organize a new event next year.

Dude, we need woman-only events because it only takes one of you to stand there and spout this stuff to ruin the whole thing

You shouldn't generalize a behaviour based on gender or race, it's not very nice really.

 

[george_us]

Women's only events are a response to cultural misogyny.

If you advocate for or force these events to stop, the cultural misogyny will still continue because you never solved the fucking problem for why they were created in the first place.

If women's only events offend you, tell your fellow men to stop being misogynistic so we can join you guys without feeling like we're in a lion's den.

I don't see why people are having such a hard time understanding this.

 

[MazeHaze]

The internet tends to ruin everyones fun, it's a shame that such an event had to be cancelled because of a bunch of shithead trolls, hopefully they'll be able to organize a new event next year.



You shouldn't generalize a behaviour based on gender or race, it's not very nice really.

I don't see any generalizing there.

 

[Not]

Somewhat true but you ignore the reason why people got offended by this in the first place.

Because men are used to having whatever they want whenever and wherever they want it and the idea of a place they can't go or a thing they can't do offends them down to their very soul because they are the adult personification of screaming, booger-dripping infants?

 

[Xadjim]

It doesn't. Because again you're not understanding what I'm saying. You're so painfully male that I'm not going to bother anymore.

You use male as a insult here. From here on you are not even trying anymore.

That's a false equivalence though, because men can go to gaming events and never have to worry about females stalking them around, pinching their butts when theyre in cosplay, sexually harassing them, trying to pick them up and then calling them dumb whores when they get turned down, telling them they don't belong there...

You want to tell me that no women ever tried to flirt or touch a "hot mans ass"? Hmm

Dude, we need woman-only events because it only takes one of you to stand there and spout this stuff to ruin the whole thing

Don't know what to answer you. I never disrespected or harassed anyone nor do I plan to do so.

So explain to me how we achieve true equality.

Not by acting like we are inequal and do events for men or women only.

 

[CannonFodder52]

WTF kind of fake philosophical garbage is this?
Theres no 'translation' needed. The number is greater of people who just chill and play a game than people who grief others.
Know what's wonderful about online? You can mute people who are annoying.
If you (or anyone) care about what some anonymous person says about you, or to you, online then I'm sorry to say you have some serious growing up to do.

Come on

This is an environment where one gender often avoids voice chat in all games because the overall community is so toxic and often unaware of their toxicity.
The whole, just mute them, argument is gross. We should listen to people who are victims and try to address the issue instead of telling the victims to ignore their harassers.

 

[Icedburden]

Come on

This is an environment where one gender often avoids voice chat in all games because the overall community is so toxic and often unaware of their toxicity.
The whole, just mute them, argument is gross. We should listen to people who are victims and try to address the issue instead of telling the victims to ignore their harassers.

I wasn't speaking about women, just online behavior in general. Also, I'm pretty sure the idiots know they are being idiots.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Not by acting like we are inequal and do events for men or women only.

Thw only barrier to ending gender inequality in gaming is simply to take away women only gaming events? Okay so if we do that everything is fine?

 

[Nepenthe]

Somewhat true but you ignore the reason why people got offended by this in the first place.

People got offended because they operate in a headspace where they believe all exclusion is equivalent instead of believing that there's good exclusion, neutral exclusion, and bad exclusion, all because they were told their bad exclusion is bad and they want others to feel as bad as they do.

What happened is, men kicked women out of the party through making women's time at the party miserable.

So women made their own party because women just want to party in peace.

You can't then complain they're partying without men- the people who made their experience at your party shit- and then tell them to shut their party down because having a party without men is the same as having a party without women, especially if you're not going to make sure in the first party people aren't shitting in women's drinks simply because they identify as women.

You can't do this because it wasn't actually about making sure the party was inclusive. It was that your "inclusive party" wasn't actually inclusive because it was still hostile to a good chunk of the attendees for reasons outside of their control.

You want the women who are partying amongst themselves and having a grand ol' time to rejoin the first party and achieve "equality?"

Then fucking kick out the shitheads making the first party such a terrible time for the women that it caused them to defect and make their own party.

And if your excuses for not doing this are "Well, there's too many shitheads" or "Talking to the shitheads doesn't do anything" or "He's not really like that," then fucking congrats! You've lost control of your party and it's turned into a shitshow for women, and we're not obligated to have our drinks shat in in order to make you feel better about it.

 

[Xadjim]

Because men are used to having whatever they want whenever and wherever they want it and the idea of a place they can't go or a thing they can't do offends them down to their very soul because they are the adult personification of screaming, booger-dripping infants?

aside from the fact that I, as a male white human, cannot confirm what you said is remotely true, why are you insulting men? This saddens me and I hope that not many think like you.

 

[klaushm]

Follow this line of thought.

1) Why women don't go to the events for everybody?
Because they are harassed and aren't treated as equal. They are uncomfortable, fear for the worse and don't feel welcomed.

2) Why this keeps happening?
The security is almost always not enough, or don't take the appropriate measures, or even don't care.

3) So the problem is within the security. Why not improve there?
Well... There are groups trying to change them, to reinforce them, but still you don't see much movement for the desired improvement. If you are not the organizer, the most you can do is shout for change and wait. This problem always existed.

4) Still, they don't need their own event. They are dividing everyone.
How? They wouldn't go to the other event. They aren't going already. They are doing something for their own that nobody did for them.

5) Still, they should fight for a better security and not doing something just for a group.
First, they are doing. Second, they can just have fun. Aren't they allowed that? Or should they keep fighting for something their whole life and never have fun in the middle?

6) They still are going with double standards. We can't hold an event only for men.
First, there is no need to. Second, you can, just don't be for the wrong motivations. Why would you do? Just because they are doing? Isn't that wrong? What will happen if you do this event? What will change for you or them? You could go to events before without a problem, but they couldn't. Why you don't fight with them for a better security, and let they have fun, instead of ruining their party?

 

[Sai-kun]

aside from the fact that I, as a male white human, cannot confirm what you said is remotely true, why are you insulting men? This saddens me and I hope that not many think like you.

A lot of women think like this because us men have given them good reason to.

 

[Not]

aside from the fact that I, as a male white human, cannot confirm what you said is remotely true, why are you insulting men? This saddens me and I hope that not many think like you.

Listen, it's a good thing you're here on GAF right now talking to people, because from what I can tell from your posts you have a point of view that lacks perspective of what it's like to NOT be a male white human. Stick around, educate yourself. Keep asking questions. Don't be afraid of getting your feelings hurt.

 

[MazeHaze]

You want to tell me that no women ever tried to flirt or touch a "hot mans ass"? Hmm




Don't know what to answer you. I never disrespected or harassed anyone nor do I plan to do so.

I mean yeah, women sexually harass men sometimes, but if you really think that at a gaming convention, women sexually harassing men is even close to the frequency of men harassing women, you're ignorant as fuck, straight up. I think you're just being disingenuous though because you just used "not all males" as your argument. You are transparent as fuck my dude.

 

[Undead Hero]

The reason they get offended in the first place is because theyre ignorant and have no concept of what other gaming events are like for females.

👍

 

[Xadjim]

Thw only barrier to ending gender inequality in gaming is simply to take away women only gaming events? Okay so if we do that everything is fine?

Of course not. If I ever made the impression that I think this than I excuse myself. I just think that I cannot fight for equality by doing the opposite.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

I mean yeah, women sexually harass men sometimes, but if you really think that at a gaming convention, women sexually harassing men is even close to the frequency of men harassing women, you're ignorant as fuck, straight up. I think you're just being disingenuous though because you just used "not all males" as your argument. You are transparent as fuck my dude.

*applause*

 

[Ghost is Bad]

video gamers are a mistake.

 

[Joey Ravn]

Its really not important that "I" am there. I already said that this behaviour is contrary to what equality means. People who support these events have every right to do so but disqualify themselves from the equality discussion and should not expect that man only events should be open for everyone.

You seem to think that equality is "everything for everyone or nothing for no one", when that isn't true. Equality would entail that you can create a secure space for discussing whatever you want with whoever you want without the threat of boycott or physical aggression. Equality would entail not even having to create these safe spaces in the first place, because you should be able to feel safe anywhere regardless of your gender.

But then you have a woman like Anita Sarkeesian, who went to an "equalitarian" event where both men and women were allowed and her harassers sat in the first three rows, ready to attack her.

So in the end, what I'm getting from your "everything or nothing" approach is that women can't have their own spaces to talk, and if they want to express their points of view they have to deal with their abusers or shut their mouths. Yeah, no. Sorry, but can't buy that.

Of course not. If I ever made the impression that I think this than I excuse myself. I just think that I cannot fight for equality by doing the opposite.

You keep pushing this "idea". What is that makes it so unequal to the men not being able to attend a meeting by women, for women? Unless ultimately what you're trying to say is that women shouldn't be having conversations with other women, unless men are involved...

 

[CannonFodder52]

I wasn't speaking about women, just online behavior in general. Also, I'm pretty sure the idiots know they are being idiots.

I mean, I think this should apply to people dealing with racism, homophobia or most other online attacks.

Also, I've heard from people who were fully unaware of how their little sandwich joke, after hearing a girl speak on a server, contributed to a constant non stop barrage of gross noise, and how much it could effect someone overtime.

-

video gamers are a mistake.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Of course not. If I ever made the impression that I think this than I excuse myself. I just think that I cannot fight for equality by doing the opposite.

So we just go back to my original question. How do we reach equality in this area? Get rid of female only gaming events. Okay.

What else?

 

[Nepenthe]

Of course not. If I ever made the impression that I think this than I excuse myself. I just think that I cannot fight for equality by doing the opposite.

If you want women to hang with men, then men need to stop A.) being assholes, or B.) enabling the assholes.

I'm not going to be in your house with your buddy to make you feel better if your buddy keeps groping me. FFS.

 

[joecanada]

WTF kind of fake philosophical garbage is this?
Theres no 'translation' needed. The number is greater of people who just chill and play a game than people who grief others.
Know what's wonderful about online? You can mute people who are annoying.
If you (or anyone) care about what some anonymous person says about you, or to you, online then I'm sorry to say you have some serious growing up to do.

It's still called harassment. Doesn't matter if you care or not it's still unacceptable and shouldn't be tolerated. People have committed suicide over online harassment. Should we then sit here and debate how they " shouldn't have cared " or perhaps you'd like to talk about how they were overly sensitive

 

[Xadjim]

A lot of women think like this because us men have given them good reason to.

You give a whole gender the burden of something only a few do?

Listen, it's a good thing you're here on GAF right now talking to people, because from what I can tell from your posts you have a point of view that lacks perspective of what it's like to NOT be a male white human. Stick around, educate yourself. Keep asking questions. Don't be afraid of getting your feelings hurt.

I can give the same back.

 

[Xadjim]

If you want women to hang with men, then men need to stop A.) being assholes, or B.) enabling the assholes.

Finally something I can gladly agree with you :3

Edit: damn didnt want to double post again but people quote me and I feel like I should answer

 

[MazeHaze]

I think it's also important to point out, in threads like these when we say "men" we generally mean men who are shitbags, which should be obvious but I keep seeing it getting used by men as a "gotcha" "you're discriminating against ME now!" Or "not all men".

Same goes for women. We mean women who want a safe space to talk about games obviously, because there are plenty of women who are also shit bags and against feminism for some reason.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

You give a whole gender the burden of something only a few do?

Not all men in this industry harass women. Most of the harassers in this industry are men.

 

[Nepenthe]

You give a whole gender the burden of something only a few do?

And this right here is why many women don't hang out with gamers like you.

You call policing others and being an ally a "burden" because it's something only a few do.

You rebuke all personal responsibility in the way the community you belong to functions, forgetting the fact that it literally doesn't matter who made the mess; what matters is that the mess needs to be cleaned, and passing the mop only lets it fester.

It's clear you don't care. You want the negative peace of women existing in a space with men that are hostile to them versus actually growing a spine and helping out to make a space that's truly inclusive for women.

EDIT:

Finally something I can gladly agree with you :3

Oh, so we do have common ground.

What are you going to do about it aside from telling women they need to stop hanging with themselves and need to put themselves back into hostile environments?

 

[SmokedMeat]

You want to tell me that no women ever tried to flirt or touch a "hot mans ass"? Hmm

Compared to what women have to put up with? Not nearly as much.

 

[Akronis]

Women's only events are a response to cultural misogyny.

If you advocate for or force these events to stop, the cultural misogyny will still continue because you never solved the fucking problem for why they were created in the first place.

If women's only events offend you, tell your fellow men to stop being misogynistic so we can join you guys without feeling like we're in a lion's den.

This is the same argument people use to try and say that discriminating against whites is the same as systemic racism against PoC and other minority groups.

They completely ignore the context and history of WHY these sorts of things exist.