shinra-bansho
Member
Just doing things better worked for the PS2.
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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
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H_Prestige
Banned
"Yeah, I'll go ahead and buy this $599 console with no games because the ps2 is awesome".
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I think most people bought it because of the promise of big titles that they knew were coming. Like MGS4 and FFXIII which were both supposed to release a lot earlier then they did. At least thats why I bought a PS3 at $599. Resistance was pretty awesome at the time as well.
PS4 is really going to need some big titles like MGS4 announced before releases to get that excitement going. Anyone guess what those titles could possibly be? MGS5? UC4? New IP from GG?
Loghorn150
Banned
Never said anything of the sort. I'm just saying, without the numerous price cuts, etc., it wouldn't have easily caught up to Xbox 360 in sales at all.
DVD & 3D polygons on PS1 & N64 looked terrible & needed a upgrade asap.
Dreamcast fell victim to being that 1st upgrade when everyone wasn't sure if they needed the upgrade yet, even though it was plain to see. but most people had a I'll wait this out & play my PS1\ N64 until the PS2 get here mind set even when the Dreamcast had hit at a good time & a good price.
bgassassin
Member
I still lean more toward that including efficiency.
I talked to him and he said "reluctantly" was a better word.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
PS2 allowed for the full realization of 3D games. PS1 started 3d gaming, but it looked pretty bad for the most part.
Maybe PS4 will allow for the full realization of HD. Its true a lot of the games are sub 720p and very few are 1080p. Maybe 1080p will be the norm. The problem is with that is, how big of an impact will it really make? A lot of times its hard to even tell the difference. For that reason it may be better to stay with 720p as you be able to increase the graphical fidelity in other areas and increase performance, even though the next consoles will be much more capable at doing 1080p for the majority of games.
x360 and PS3 really brought online gaming to consoles as well. Yes PS2 had some online games like Socom, and xbox went online. But once again it was the "full realization" of it that ps3 and 360 achieved.
The next consoles still need to do a lot more then improve apon the HD resolution of the games.
shinra-bansho
Member
Oh my god! What a revelation. You should be a detective.
There are multiple reasons for the demise of SEGA/Dreamcast, not least of which their erosion of consumer goodwill with their add-ons and the lack of EA support.
There's a first-mover advantage. The 360 certainly enjoyed it over the PS3 this generation. It's just not necessarily insurmountable, as shown by the Wii.
Waiting for 2014 would be a bad move considering I really can't see how much of a visual/physical difference it will make in the consumers eyes.
I get the feeling that Sony really want to wait for 4K / Glasses free 3D but it's a dangerous risk & they know that even when 4K / Glasses Free 3D hit the market it's still going to take years for it to take off, so they are going to have to go with the Perfect HD/ Glasses 3D / All in One Media Plan.
Next Gen will be like SNES\PS2 for HD gaming XBOX 3 & PS4 will perfect what Xbox 360 & PS3 brought to the table & Devs will get a chance to show off without killing themselves trying to learn all the new tricks.
with that thought I think next gen is going to be beautiful.
jeff_rigby
Banned
That's a given, at least to me and the major thrust of many of my earlier posts. But efficencies are primarily going to be used to allow more performance to be packed into one SOC without exceeding a heat budget. IF a co-processor is more efficient at a task, it should then be part of the design; this is the reason for HSA in the first place.
We have a cite that the Consumer general purpose PC SoC with Jaguar CPUs will differ from the one made for Microsoft and Sony with minor tweaks for each company. This can take many forms from larger L3 cache & (PPC, SPUs) to a FPGA (we now have more support for this with the Ray-tracing cites).
Reluctantly but it required Microsoft to reserve the domain name microsoft-sony.com and that happened at the same time as the digitimes rumor:
This had to be the PS3 4000 chassis. Everyone picked apart this rumor and even recently cautioned against using anything in the leak because Digitimes has been wrong in the past but we can check off one correct for the rumor....a new chassis was contracted to be assembled just not a PS4. The error in it's self is telling as it's probable that there were no recognizable "Cell" or PS3 specific hardware features. Check off #2, Sony filed a patent for a depth camera 8 months after the above post and just after OpenMax 1.2 was published. A depth camera is needed with Kinect like controller built in. That only leaves 20 million the first year which I feel is probably accurate as it's something that someone who is contracted to build them would have to know.
So what is the reluctant agreement that is going to be announced or discovered that required Microsoft to reserve the domain name?
Khronos API standards - probably but this doesn't require reserving a domain name so no.
Microsoft joining Sony in the AMD HSA Foundation - maybe
Sony not part of the HSA foundation yet given it's exactly the same as the Cell distributed vision except this time processor agnostic and Sony filed a patent on a similar "method for syncing data in a distributed processing network" vision. I've noticed that partners in a venture each patent a part of the working parts so that each holds potential leverage.
Sony will announce as part of the HSA foundation after they announce the PS4 as will Microsoft with the Xbox 720. Same AMD HSA design using the same AMD libraries of course both will support the HSA foundation. Both are going to support an ecosystem with handhelds and so far Chip makes for Handhelds have been the first supporters.
HSA Foundation supports standards (I'd advise everyone who wants to know what the PS4 HSA can do to visit the site and read the slide shows).
I'd be willing to bet that PS Suite's mono engine will evolve (probably planned from day one) and eventually support/use HSA. There are plans for Javascript and Python now.
***********
Looks like one of the slides for HSA (slide 9) has DirectX as a legacy driver with OpenGL/OpenCL only being supported by HSA. This fits the reluctant agreement by Microsoft. HSA tries to require as little graphics as possible (there are some graphics Via OpenCL), it's mostly about OpenCL drivers for all CPUs including Compute GPUs. A GPU maker must provide OpenCL and OpenGL or DirectX 11 which has Direct3D and Direct compute. While it's possible to provide OpenCL and Direct3D drivers for a GPU, does that make sense? DirectX (Direct Compute part) is legacy and not used by HSA which implies that the Direct 3D part may have a limited life going forward especially if WebGL becomes popular.
The CTO of Sony said that most of the things that they wanted in the PS4 is a few years away so I could believe that they haven't put all the pieces that they want in the PS4 together yet & they are still trying to piece the design together with the best parts that will be available to them at the right price for a console.
We're going to have another gen chasing resolution. There is absolutely no way we're going to go through a generation with pixel counts smaller than an iPad, especially with Apple pushing retina laptops and putting a boot firmly up panel manufacturers' butts to get 4k down to where 1080p was at the beginning of this gen.
Though if we're lucky we'll see more engines that render UI and game separately, and give us 60fps 1080p action with 4k chrome and FMV.
If I had to guess at what this gen will refine, I think it's going to do indie development right. I can't see Wii U being worse than 3DS for small titles, and if Sony and MS roll with Android/PS Suite and the Metro app store it'll honestly be pretty damn awesome (yet still way too limited compared to native software to murder the $15 XBL segment).
Giant Panda
Member
If you're talking about the interview I think you're talking about he never said those things were for PS4.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
That is call a smoke screen. They don't want to give away how close they are. They don't want competitors to know and they don't want to hurt PS3 sales.
jeff_rigby
Banned
All very intriguing.
Sounds familiar
You realise that people sit further away from their TVs than their iPads and laptops?
Gat damn, very interesting though.
phosphor112
Banned
I'll read through as many patents as I can. Some I just don't understand though.
2) IPTV and digital recording that is all cloud based, for high versatility of content to multiple devices. It allows conversion of not only resolution, but frame rate, fillrate, etc to meet the needs of the device.
3) Not exactly sure, seems like content replacement for hyperlinking. Set top boxes are referenced but that might be just to "cover the bases."
Many others have to do with networking several devices together...
What's with the substrate one? Isn't that used for silicon stacking?
EDIT: The substrate seems to have to do with CMOS and medical imaging related tech. I'm not 100% sure though.
EDIT 2: Several "motion" and "kinect like" features patented.
2) IPTV and digital recording that is all cloud based, for high versatility of content to multiple devices. It allows conversion of not only resolution, but frame rate, fillrate, etc to meet the needs of the device.
3) Not exactly sure, seems like content replacement for hyperlinking. Set top boxes are referenced but that might be just to "cover the bases."
Many others have to do with networking several devices together...
What's with the substrate one? Isn't that used for silicon stacking?
EDIT: The substrate seems to have to do with CMOS and medical imaging related tech. I'm not 100% sure though.
EDIT 2: Several "motion" and "kinect like" features patented.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes two for 3D stacking techniques, two medical with one looking like a medical Lab design combining optics and die staining that produces light when hit with a light of various freq. Might be the nanotech technology used for medical purposes "Sony Crystal TV screen" where very small particles change blue light (cheapest highest output inorganic LED) to colors needed by a TV. Combine the nanoparticles with organic binders so that nanoparticles stick to sugar or protein sequences then hit with the proper light frequency and you can better see structures. Staining with a new twist.
Most are Cloud and IPTV information processing. It gives an idea of where Sony is going (Same as the Microsoft Xbox 720 powerpoint). Oh, one is a method to produce two depth maps concurrently, one gross (low res) and one fine (high res) for finger detection.
phosphor112
Banned
Thanks for breaking it down.
Trogdor1123
Member
I know its way to early to really have a clear answer but what do you folks thing is the likely hood that Sony will have an upgradable HDD this time around, not the way MS does mind you. That being said what do you actually expect for HDD size? 500 gigs? 1 TB?
Being that the PS3 is open, I would hope they would continue down that path. There is a bit of money to be made in propiertary stuff though so who knows.
jonnyp
Member
I did. It worked well for me with the PS2 and it worked with PS3.
1TB is overkill. I believe it'll be around 250 to 500GB.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Reading up on Xbox 720 rumors but taking everything with a grain of salt it appears (applies to PS4 also) that a small FPGA might be combined with the 8000 series GPU to allow an upgradeable GPU from Direct 11.1 to 12 supporting Ray tracing beyond the limited "Bundled" ray tracing supported by the AMD 8000 series. FPGA only because the standards have not been set in stone so that they can be included in a GPU. First refresh for both should have this included in the GPU. Applies to medical imaging time 1:30 !http://www.examiner.com/article/pachter-ideas-on-xbox-720-ps4-anti-used-gaming-industry-powers-weaknesses said:
Interesting, although wouldn't be a difference in OpenGL version instead of DX in the PS4?
Anyway, I've been expecting a mid range 8000 series in the PS4 with similar clock speeds to what we've been hearing, just with a newer tessellator, among other things. If there's an 8000 series pictairn equivalent I could definitely see that going in.
The guy talking to him in the comments name look familiar.
Edit: on a side note have you seen this Sony patent
Patent: Sony wants to convert TV commercials into interactive networked video games with PlayStation Move support
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes, another reason for some FPGA to tweek the design. DirectX (Direct3D - Direct Compute) might be where Microsoft reluctantly agreed to use the OpenCL - OpenGL standard.
Yes, I posted it on NeoGAF earlier <grin>, one of the few times I posted first. Edit: Gesh, the one I saw referencing the patent didn't have the examples seen in this one. Really good find and I see you uploaded this patent.onQ123 said:
This is XTV!!!!!! That the patent was filed in 10/2009 and just now published supports XTV is soon to launch in a big way.
Interesting stuff.
Lots over my head, have to research a lot of what I am reading to fully understand
oh.
well it's from a few years back so I guess it's been published a few times but that was my 1st time seeing it.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
So is there any chance that either of the PS4/720 will be "upgradable" consoles?
dummydecoy
Member
Stupid Question on Backward Compatibility.
Let's say the PS4 has it and I tried to play PS3 games that run like shit on PS3, will it run better on the PS4 and eliminate framerate dips and screen tear?
Let's say the PS4 has it and I tried to play PS3 games that run like shit on PS3, will it run better on the PS4 and eliminate framerate dips and screen tear?
The changes between Direct3D 11 and 12 -- and 12 isn't close to being finished so there's no way to know everything that this supposed FPGA would ever have to do -- are so architecturally different that you cannot augment the system like that. Even if you could, you would more than double the PCB complexity and memory system to have tracks and pins to the FPGA that'd just sit there doing nothing for long periods of time.
No.
I can only assume it would still require a patch. Unless the issue is related to read speeds and memory access or how much of the os runs in the background hogging resources.
I say that thinking back on xbox original games on the 360, it needed a hard drive, for a small patch to run off the hard drive for backward compatibility. That was a software patch, a small one but one necessary most if not all games I think for BC. An arcade model could not run BC.
Brad Grenz
Member
if they knew what was needed they'd just include purpose built functional hardware. The whole point of a FPGA is it can be changed to do whatever you need. I think Rigby is also suggesting the FPGA block would be embedded within the GPU die so you 2nd concern doesn't apply, either. Finally, until the DX12 specs are finalized the FPGA could be configured to accelerate any operation AMD wants so it wouldn't have to sit idle.
not that I think there is any merit to the rumors
If BC was full hardware, then they would be the same. But that almost certainly won't happen, so if there is BC, it will be software emulation (or maybe, software plus some hardware).
With software emulation, it's completely possible to improve on the original. Higher resolutions, faster frame rates. But doing so would impact on compatibility, and could require per-game patches, so is unlikely. Saying that, there are some PSP games that run a bit better on Vita. Powerstone Collection comes to mind, where the slowdown in the game when played on a PSP is gone when playing the same game on a Vita.
jeff_rigby
Banned
For Microsoft they need a couple of PPC processors in the Xbox 720 so for them it's emulating the GPU and support chips as well as timing. For the PS4, PPC and SPUs would be needed and two of the 2010 Sony Multi-processor patent packages with 1PPU4SPUs for example, would work in a AMD design. GPU and support chips would need to be emulated (timing too). Oh, a PS4 SoC that could emulate a PS3 could also emulate a Xbox 360 but the reverse is not true.
From microsoft-sony.com and the two rumors that the Xbox 720 and PS4 SoC cores are nearly identical with "Tweeks" for DirectX or OpenGL suggests that they are identical core silicon with two 1PPU4SPU CPU packages with cache added to two 4 Jaguar CPU packages (this only if BC is supported). "Tweeks" can be made with FPGA programming. This would save on R&D.
The FPGA is just attached to main memory with a multi-processor switch and the 2014 AMD SoC design supports adding multiple different processors. The FPGA is more efficient than the GPU at data base array/vector intersection duties because the 8000 GPU while it natively supports some if-then branching can not efficiently, at this time, do the same. The Ray tracing process takes place in main memory not in the GPU and the GPU would only be used as a highly parallel CPU for this. My understanding is that Shaders in GPUs need some modification in both registers and instructions to efficiently support Ray tracing CPU duties. There are several different ways to do Ray tracing and a standard has not been accepted. PPUs and SPUs can also do Ray tracing vector intersection routines.RYS said:
When a Ray tracing standard is accepted then a New AMD GPU can be designed with maybe different sized registers or micro code changes in instructions used by GPU shaders then the GPU can efficiently support the Ray Tracing CPU routines (run on shaders in the GPU). At that point the FPGA is not needed and may not be included in the next PS4 or Xbox 720 refresh.
The above is my understanding and may be explained in a clumsy way but the FPGA is needed to future proof next generation.
Hot chips?Is that a presser or a NDA'd event?
I'm curious what sony (and MS) manage to squeeze in there. More recent GPUs have increased performance *and* reduced power consumption. Is the 8xxx series going to do that again?
Bluemercury
Member
I sure hope this thing isn't the size of a pc case.....
Have you seen the alienware x51?even if it has an external power brick and a larger case than the ps3 the console can look nice
iceatcs
Junior Member
SuperDaE is fucking fake. just look his/her? history. Lot of PS3 complaints. I'm quite positive is not developer, or if so then, working @ MS's 1st party
You've already been told, numerous time, how this makes no sense.
Ok so now after looking at the schedule i'm expecting something may not be anything idk,i hope jeff_rigby will keep us updated
If sony includes the cell with the ps4 h/w do you think b/c will be possible?
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