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[KageMaru]

If sony includes the cell with the ps4 do you think b/c will be possible?

It would make it less complicated, since they would only have to emulate the GPU and not the CPU, but the GPU would still create issues.

Almost anything is possible, I'm just not convinced BC is a high priority for any company right now. I'm also not convinced we'll see a Cell CPU in the ps4 or even a mini-cell as an additional CPU. The technology itself is a dead end and adding it as a secondary CPU would create unnecessary complications with the mother board, hindering cost reduction in the process.

 

[Sid]

It would make it less complicated, since they would only have to emulate the GPU and not the CPU, but the GPU still create issues.

Almost anything is possible, I'm just not convinced BC is a high priority for any company right now. I'm also not convinced we'll see a Cell CPU in the ps4 or even a mini-cell as an additional CPU. The technology itself is a dead end and adding it as a secondary CPU would create unnecessary complications with the mother board, hindering cost reduction in the process.

I'm not in the know here but let's say they do include an additional cell,can they provide b/c the way ms has done for the 360 like not all games are playable?

 

[Graphics Horse]

The technology itself is a dead end and adding it as a secondary CPU would create unnecessary complications with the mother board, hindering cost reduction in the process.

Well they could always just ditch that once they release it in Europe. Ha ha

 

[KageMaru]

I'm not in the know here but let's say they do include an additional cell,can they provide b/c the way ms has done for the 360 like not all games are playable?

Even if they went with a Cell CPU and an Nvidia GPU, I still wouldn't suspect full BC since today's GPUs are so different than the RSX that it wouldn't really matter who created it.

So yeah, partial BC may be a possibility IMO if a Cell chip was included. I just doubt that they will use Nvidia or Cell, making BC a rather large challenge and possibly not one that's worth it.

Well they could always just ditch that once they release it in Europe. Ha ha

lol

 

[BKK]

Sony already patented a BC hardware add-on, so any PS4 BC may well come in the form of an optional add on with CELL included in that. I don't really see why CELL being "a dead end technology" has any relevance for including it in PS4 as they'll still be manufacturing them for PS3 for many years to come anyway. EE could also be considered a "dead end technology", yet they're still manufacturing them for PS2 consoles to this very day.

 

[KageMaru]

EE could also be considered a "dead end technology", yet they're still manufacturing them for PS2 consoles to this very day.

And yet we don't see the EE chip in the PS3, which supports the point I was making.

Why expect Cell in the ps4 when Sony couldn't be bothered to keep EE in the PS3?

 

[GoofsterStud]

And yet we don't see the EE chip in the PS3, which supports the point I was making.

Why expect Cell in the ps4 when Sony couldn't be bothered to keep EE in the PS3?

Honest expectations or wishful thinking?

 

[jeff_rigby]

http://www.hotchips.org/

August 27-29, 2012.

Wow, some of the titles:

From multiple sources this applies to Next generation game consoles but probably not the PS3 and Xbox 360 refresh coming this year.

2.5D/3D die stacking increases aggregate inter-chip bandwidth and shrinks board footprint while reducing I/O latency and energy consumption. By integrating in one package multiple tightly-coupled semiconductor dice – each possibly in a process optimized for power, performance and costs for a particular function – this technology gives system designers additional options to partition and scale solutions efficiently. Die stacking has already transformed the design of high-end CMOS image sensors, and it promises to also enhance FPGA, graphics and mobile applications.

In Part 1 of this tutorial we will examine the key enabling technologies such as silicon interposer, TSV, micro-bump and assembly integration. In Part 2 we will cover the design considerations & trade-offs of 2.5D/3D in CAD, ESD and architecture. Part 3 will showcase how the technology is used in systems and applications for memory integration, optics integration and monolithic die partitioning.

AMD’s “Jaguar”: A next generation low power x86 core.

FPGA Augmented ASICs: The Time Has Come

AMD HD7970 Graphics Core Next (GCN) Architecture

AMD Trinity Fusion APU

 

[Sid]

And yet we don't see the EE chip in the PS3, which supports the point I was making.

Why expect Cell in the ps4 when Sony couldn't be bothered to keep EE in the PS3?

Maybe only the launch models will have it like the ps3 or the 'premium' model which may cost$50-100 more will have partial b/c?

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

Even if they went with a Cell CPU and an Nvidia GPU, I still wouldn't suspect full BC since today's GPUs are so different than the RSX that it wouldn't really matter who created it.

So yeah, partial BC may be a possibility IMO if a Cell chip was included. I just doubt that they will use Nvidia or Cell, making BC a rather large challenge and possibly not one that's worth it.

lol

I think the lack of BC for the Vita is what's killing it softly. Being unable to play the psp games you own on it make it a tough sell, it's not an upgrade it's just somewhere you have to rebuy your umd's.

If the PS4 is not backwards compatible, at least with the PS3. I think the console is dead on arrival.

 

[onQ123]

It would make it less complicated, since they would only have to emulate the GPU and not the CPU, but the GPU would still create issues.

Almost anything is possible, I'm just not convinced BC is a high priority for any company right now. I'm also not convinced we'll see a Cell CPU in the ps4 or even a mini-cell as an additional CPU. The technology itself is a dead end and adding it as a secondary CPU would create unnecessary complications with the mother board, hindering cost reduction in the process.

I think it will be a bigger deal this time around because of the online stores.

also about BC I think it will be easier this time around than with the PS2 because PS3 games are made to run on top of the PSGL API which is OpenGL with some PS3 features & PS4 will also use the OpenGL API so it should be more like the PC games that can run on newer hardware as long as the OS & CPU/GPU follow the standards that's needed to run apps created with the API.


Vita is doing PSP BC pretty good without any PSP hardware inside. I look at that as a good sign that PS4 could do the same with PS3 games.

 

[onQ123]

Wow, some of the titles:

From multiple sources this applies to Next generation game consoles but probably not the PS3 and Xbox 360 refresh coming this year.



AMD’s “Jaguar”: A next generation low power x86 core.

FPGA Augmented ASICs: The Time Has Come

AMD HD7970 Graphics Core Next (GCN) Architecture

AMD Trinity Fusion APU

Yep so many things that have been rumored for the PS4 all at one show.

 

[KageMaru]

Honest expectations or wishful thinking?

Honest expectations. There's no reason for me to wish the PS4 didn't have BC.

I'm just keeping my expectations to what I believe, is a realistic level. That way I benefit if I'm wrong and I'm not disappointed if I'm right.

Maybe only the launch models will have it like the ps3 or the 'premium' model which may cost$50-100 more will have partial b/c?

Still an unnecessary cost for a limited benefit. It's cheaper to manufacturer one mother board type than two different configurations.

The way I see it, they either get it working for every model (through whatever means) or not at all.

I think the lack of BC for the Vita is what's killing it softly. Being unable to play the psp games you own on it make it a tough sell, it's not an upgrade it's just somewhere you have to rebuy your umd's.

If the PS4 is not backwards compatible, at least with the PS3. I think the console is dead on arrival.

We can't compare the handheld market to the console market. I also have my doubts that BC is the reason for the psv troubles.

 

[BKK]

And yet we don't see the EE chip in the PS3, which supports the point I was making.

Why expect Cell in the ps4 when Sony couldn't be bothered to keep EE in the PS3?

EE was able to be emulated which is why they removed it, GX chip was more complicated to emulate though. I'll assume you meant GX chip.

Firstly, keeping GX chip in PS2 cost money, selling an optional add-on wouldn't (it should even make money). PS2 was meant to be fully software emulated on PS3, so PS3 wasn't designed to to use a PS2 HW add-on. PS4 can be designed to use a PS3 HW add on from the start.

Secondly, and more importantly PS2 had no online store, PS3 does. In this day and age where many are exposed to iOS people expect to be able to transfer their online purchases from one set of hardware to the next. Sony have recognised this with PSP>Vita, Cross Buy, and PS Mobile. One of Sony's few successes this generation has been PSN, I really don't see how Sony can risk not retaining many of those customers if PS4 is unable to play content purchased on PS3.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/playstation-the-walled-gardens-are-breaking-down/0101811

The days of closed platforms like PS1, PS2 and PS3 are coming to an end, admits Sony.

PlayStation Europe boss Jim Ryan told MCV the firm is entering a ‘big bad world where there are no rules’ and that it is re-thinking what it means to be a platform holder.

The company is already opening up its system so users can download one game on PS3 and also own it on Vita. But this is just the beginning, as the firm looks to offer a PlayStation experience across mobile, tablet and even televisions.

“It’s definitely the case that the old model of these very siloed platforms is breaking down a bit,” said Ryan.

“And it is function of now having proper connected devices. PS2 was not a connected device. PSP was not really a proper connected device. PS3 is and PS Vita most definitely is. So we have the ability now to have devices talk to each other.”

In regard to mobile, he added: “There are obviously lots of people, whether it is on a tablet or a smartphone, playing games. Sorts of people who a number of years ago were simply not doing that. We see it a real opportunity to take that constituency and offer them a PlayStation experience, whether that is with an emulated virtual dual shock, or whether it is the use of PSN functionality, which will come in the future.

“We think there is a great opportunity to offer consumers a place where they will be assured of a certain level of quality of android game, presented with a gaming format that is similar to what they’ve experienced in the past.

“This is new ground for us. It didn’t seem it at the time but these walled gardens are actually nice, cosy places, and we are now going out into the big bad world where there are no rules. We are trying to set those rules.

“We are having to reset a lot of our thinking. And I am enjoying that. But it is a challenge, because we’ve been pushing PS1, PS2 and PS3, basically the same way, and then all of a sudden we are like ‘You have to forget that and think differently’.”

Sony’s bold vision for its platforms shows the company has been giving serious thought to the direction of the industry. It follows the acquisition of cloud gaming specialist Gaikai, plus the firm’s decision to launch a free-to-play console title Dust 514.

“It is great that the industry evolves and goes in different directions,” added Ryan. “No entertainment industry can just carry on the way it was. For our industry to thrive and prosper it has to evolve and it has to innovate.”

 

[KageMaru]

I think it will be a bigger deal this time around because of the online stores.

also about BC I think it will be easier this time around than with the PS2 because PS3 games are made to run on top of the PSGL API which is OpenGL with some PS3 features & PS4 will also use the OpenGL API so it should be more like the PC games that can run on newer hardware as long as the OS & CPU/GPU follow the standards that's needed to run apps created with the API.

Vita is doing PSP BC pretty good without any PSP hardware inside. I look at that as a good sign that PS4 could do the same with PS3 games.

The API layer on the PS3 or 360 is rather thin and I question how much it really helps them with BC.

Also, we can't compare emulating handheld games, which are FAR less complex, to emulating a high end console game. You have to look at the complexity of the engines, the complexity of the hardware you're trying to emulate, and the hardware necessary to even attempt to emulate the last system.

EE was able to be emulated which is why they removed it, GX chip was more complicated to emulate though. I'll assume you meant GX chip.

Firstly, keeping GX chip in PS2 cost money, selling an optional add-on wouldn't (it should even make money). PS2 was meant to be fully software emulated on PS3, so PS3 wasn't designed to to use a PS2 HW add-on. PS4 can be designed to use a PS3 HW add on from the start.

Secondly, and more importantly PS2 had no online store, PS3 does. In this day and age where many are exposed to iOS people expect to be able to transfer their online purchases from one set of hardware to the next. Sony have recognised this with PSP>Vita, Cross Buy, and PS Mobile. One of Sony's few successes this generation has been PSN, I really don't see how Sony can risk not retaining many of those customers if PS4 is unable to play content purchased on PS3.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/playstation-the-walled-gardens-are-breaking-down/0101811

No, I meant the EE chip because that's what you specifically mentioned. Same comment could be applied to the GX chip though. That was a dead end design, so it's no wonder we don't see it in the ps3 today.

I'm also not including or talking about any add-in with my comments, strictly the probability of BC being included out of the box. If they provide some kind of add-on, that has no effect on the BOM, complexity of the system, or anything else that I'm listing as reasons why the system likely won't support BC in the system itself.

Last, I understand the PS3 has an online store where the PS2 did not. I also understand that Sony had big plans for Cell and hoped to use it in everything from consoles, TVs, cell phones, etc. So any forward thinking plans they may have had when designing the PS3 have gone down the shitter in this respect when those plans did not pan out.

 

[BKK]

No, I meant the EE chip because that's what you specifically mentioned. Same comment could be applied to the GX chip though. That was a dead end design, so it's no wonder we don't see it in the ps3 today.

EE wasn't removed because it was "a dead end design", it was removed because it was cheaper to emulate it in software. There are BC PS3 models with no EE.

I also understand that Sony had big plans for Cell and hoped to use it in everything from consoles, TVs, cell phones, etc. So any forward thinking plans they may have had when designing the PS3 have gone down the shitter in this respect when those plans did not pan out.

I still don't get these "dead end design" comments. Neither EE or CELL designs need to be improved upon to support BC, the R&D and fab costs have already been sunk and the chips are and will still be in production for other products (PS2 and PS3). It doesn't really matter if CELL is being manufactured for TVs, PS3s, or even fridges, just as long as they're being manufactured.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Be realistic guys.

If an BC addon was in the cards, one would have been developed for the PS3.
PS2 had more titles
PS2 sold more, so more people would want it.

If a PS4 addon was in the making we have one of 2 options.
PS2 only backwards compatibility addon (which a version would of been released for the PS3)
PS3 only backwards compatibility addon (which won't play PS2 games and cost more)

There is no way they are putting both PS2 and PS3 chips in one addon.

EE wasn't removed because it was "a dead end design", it was removed because it was cheaper to emulate it in software. There are BC PS3 models with no EE.

I have both... Just don't try to play Tekken on the 80gb. It chugs...badly.

 

[BKK]

Be realistic guys.

If an BC addon was in the cards, one would have been developed for the PS3.
PS2 had more titles
PS2 sold more, so more people would want it.

If a PS4 addon was in the making we have one of 2 options.
PS2 only backwards compatibility addon (which a version would of been released for the PS3)
PS3 only backwards compatibility addon (which won't play PS2 games and cost more)

There is no way they are putting both PS2 and PS3 chips in one addon.



I have both... Just don't try to play Tekken on the 80gb. It chugs...badly.

They won't need to put PS2 HW in PS4, it will be powerful enough to emulate it fully in software, in fact PS3 already does a decent job of emulating PS2 fully in software (see PS2 classics).

Sony Japan Files Patent For New Generation Console To Previous Generation Console Adapter

 

[KageMaru]

EE wasn't removed because it was "a dead end design", it was removed because it was cheaper to emulate it in software. There are BC PS3 models with no EE.

Ok let's go back to how our conversation started. You are the one who brought up EE, you are the one who said it could be considered dead end technology, I can care less about EE or GX.

You don't need to educate me on the status of BC on these consoles. =) I'm well aware why the hardware was cut, and those reasons support why there's little chance the PS4 will have Cell in the system.

I still don't get these "dead end design" comments. Neither EE or CELL designs need to be improved upon to support BC, the R&D and fab costs have already been sunk and the chips are and will still be in production for other products (PS2 and PS3). It doesn't really matter if CELL is being manufactured for TVs, PS3s, or even fridges, just as long as they're being manufactured.

You aren't getting my point at all. You're getting too hung up on my use of the term dead end design (WTF is up with the constant quotes anyways? It's the truth) and missing the point in the process.

The reason I pointed out how their plans didn't pan out was because you think the major difference between the PS2 and PS3 was the digital items. It doesn't matter if the PS3 has an online store, if they can't figure out a way to cost effectively support BC in the box, it's not going to happen.

This, of course, has no bearing on whether or not they provide a BC add-on since I'm not talking about that and have never talked about that.

Edit:

There is no way they are putting both PS2 and PS3 chips in one addon.

I don't think anyone is saying this at all.

 

[hodgy100]

Be realistic guys.

If an BC addon was in the cards, one would have been developed for the PS3.
PS2 had more titles
PS2 sold more, so more people would want it.

If a PS4 addon was in the making we have one of 2 options.
PS2 only backwards compatibility addon (which a version would of been released for the PS3)
PS3 only backwards compatibility addon (which won't play PS2 games and cost more)

There is no way they are putting both PS2 and PS3 chips in one addon.



I have both... Just don't try to play Tekken on the 80gb. It chugs...badly.

The PS4's hardware will be able to handle ps2 software emulation, its wether sony will support it or not now they know HD classics = easy money

 

[phosphor112]

Kagemaru, BC will be there. Their WHOLE PSN lineup is worth a lot to them. It's a way for them to make money.

NPR had a report the other day about how retail is on the decline while DD is on the rise. They can't just cut off this stream of money, in the end, it'll cost them more potential revenue that manufacturing costs. Remember there is basically ZERO publishing costs online.

Selling software makes the money, not hardware.

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/22/159710446/video-game-retail-sales-fall-while-downloads-increase

EDIT: Keep in mind the cell (or those 1PPU 4SPE) modules can do a lot more than just play PS3 games. They can add a lot of benefit to the system in itself.

 

[GoofsterStud]

The PS4's hardware will be able to handle ps2 software emulation, its wether sony will support it or not now they know HD classics = easy money

I doubt that. First PS2 PC emulation isn't 100% on top of the line computers. Second how much $$$ is it worth Sony to spend the R&D to do it. This is current Sony we are talking about.

(Looking at PSvita PSP/PS1 emulations)

 

[StuBurns]

(Looking at PSvita PSP/PS1 emulations)

What? It's probably technologically the best backwards compatibility of any system. They all actually run better, and can be cleaned up nicely.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It would make it less complicated, since they would only have to emulate the GPU and not the CPU, but the GPU would still create issues.

Almost anything is possible, I'm just not convinced BC is a high priority for any company right now. I'm also not convinced we'll see a Cell CPU in the ps4 or even a mini-cell as an additional CPU. The technology itself is a dead end and adding it as a secondary CPU would create unnecessary complications with the mother board, hindering cost reduction in the process.

Cell BE is dead not SPUs. This article Nov 2009 and the 1PPU4SPU 2010 patent is 7/2010. As was pointed out to me, work on the patent had to start about the beginning of 2009. Read this article: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/11/end-of-the-line-for-ibms-cell/

But IBM's decision to call it quits on the line confirms suspicions that Cell's overall commercial success has been limited, and there will be a number of cheaper, higher-performance, more widely supported alternatives to the processor starting in 2010.

IBM is certainly correct that at least part of the future belongs to heterogeneous, single-chip multiprocessors (CMPs)—these are chips that contain at least two different types of cores, typically a mix of general-purpose cores and more specialized cores. In this respect, the heterogeneous CMP party really kicks off in 2010, when both Intel and AMD will launch processors that feature a CPU and GPU on the same die. These CPU/GPU combos will eventually give way, at least on the Intel side, to processors that look substantially like Cell.

The article goes on to comment on the Cell BE flaws which the 1PPU4SPU Multi-processor architecture addresses.

Then this one: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/02/intel-is-shooting-for-playstation-4-but-has-it-scored/

Calling the 1PPU4SPU CPU package Mini-Cell can confuse the issue and lead to misunderstanding what the CPU package is designed to do. The GPGPU can stream process large arrays of data but has a large latency when it needs to be set-up for multiple small and different jobs (not a large array of data). SPUs are faster than X86 CPUs at some tasks. There is a place for X86, SPUs and GPGPUs, they all have their uses in a HSA system.

Further why did Sony need to patent the multiple ways a PPU&SPUs CPU package could be used in a multi-processor HSA platform. Only Sony, Toshiba and IBM can assign rights to use SPUs. Did Sony fear that IBM would allow Microsoft to use SPUs like they did the PPU they designed for Sony? In any case the filing of the patent and publishing of the patent protect Sony or give Sony leverage in how and by who SPUs may be used in MODERN systems. Far from considering SPUs dead it shows Sony still considers SPUs valuable.

 

[KageMaru]

Kagemaru, BC will be there. Their WHOLE PSN lineup is worth a lot to them. It's a way for them to make money.

NPR had a report the other day about how retail is on the decline while DD is on the rise. They can't just cut off this stream of money, in the end, it'll cost them more potential revenue that manufacturing costs. Remember there is basically ZERO publishing costs online.

Selling software makes the money, not hardware.

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/22/159710446/video-game-retail-sales-fall-while-downloads-increase

EDIT: Keep in mind the cell (or those 1PPU 4SPE) modules can do a lot more than just play PS3 games. They can add a lot of benefit to the system in itself.

Even though BC is hardly a big deal to me, I hope it is there, but I'm still not convinced. I understand their whole PSN content line up is important to them, and I'm not trying to say they will not support BC by choice or willingly, I just don't think they have many options.

Also, you're right that an additional Cell chip can help with more than just BC, but you have to weigh in the benefits are worth the cost. I don't think that would be the case when A) it would hinder cost reduction down the line and B) there are smaller, more cost efficient chips that could also serve similar purposes, such as a DSP for sound for example.

Cell BE is dead not SPUs. This article Nov 2009 and the 1PPU4SPU 2010 patent is 7/2010. As was pointed out to me, work on the patent had to start about the beginning of 2009. Read this article: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/11/end-of-the-line-for-ibms-cell/

The article goes on to comment on the Cell BE flaws which the 1PPU4SPU Multi-processor architecture addresses.

Then this one: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/02/intel-is-shooting-for-playstation-4-but-has-it-scored/

Calling the 1PPU4SPU CPU package Mini-Cell can confuse the issue and lead to misunderstanding what the CPU package is designed to do. The GPGPU can stream process large arrays of data but has a large latency when it needs to be set-up for multiple small and different jobs (not a large array of data). SPUs are faster than X86 CPUs at some tasks. There is a place for X86, SPUs and GPGPUs, they all have their uses in a HSA system.

I wouldn't talk about me causing confusion with all the misleading information you post for these people to read. Of course I don't mean "mini-cell" as you take it, I just mean a Cell chip smaller than what's currently out, which would be a 1PPU/4SPU Cell.

However tell me this, how would a 1PPU/4SPU Cell emulate PS3 games when the games are programmed to run on a 1PPU/5 or 6SPU chip? I know devs used to have some access to the 6th SPU, not sure if they have full access to it now. Regardless, as I've said to you in the past, we'll see how it all works out.

 

[8byte]

16GB flash seems likely, considering that's what Sony is putting in their low end PS3 sometime soon. They probably got a good deal from a vendor. It'll almost certainly have an HDD, so what will they use it for??

 

[jeff_rigby]

Even though BC is hardly a big deal to me, I hope it is there, but I'm still not convinced. I understand their whole PSN content line up is important to them, and I'm not trying to say they will not support BC by choice or willingly, I just don't think they have many options.

Also, you're right that an additional Cell chip can help with more than just BC, but you have to weigh in the benefits are worth the cost. I don't think that would be the case when A) it would hinder cost reduction down the line and B) there are smaller, more cost efficient chips that could also serve similar purposes, such as a DSP for sound for example.



I wouldn't talk about me causing confusion with all the misleading information you post for these people to read. Of course I don't mean "mini-cell" as you take it, I just mean a Cell chip smaller than what's currently out, which would be a 1PPU/4SPU Cell.

However tell me this, how would a 1PPU/4SPU Cell emulate PS3 games when the games are programmed to run on a 1PPU/5 or 6SPU chip? I know devs used to have some access to the 6th SPU, not sure if they have full access to it now. Regardless, as I've said to you in the past, we'll see how it all works out.

In calling it CELL or mini-cell you are confusing yourself and others! It's a catchy easy to type label but it leads to miss-understanding. I have to watch how I use the term because I have made the same mistake. It's not a cell processor it's a CPU package. A Cell processor can not work in/with a HSA multi-processor architecture!

And as I've said it will be two packages of 1PPU4SPU or possibly 1PPU3SPU. The standard configuration of AMD APUs and it looks like SoCs is a 4 way cross bar switch with room for 4 CPU packages and each package has it's own cache and interface to the Xbar switch. The rumor is now 2 Jaguar CPU package that have 4 CPUs each and 2 megs of cache. That leaves room for two CPU packages I.E. two 1PPU3SPU CPU packages and cache.

Can 1PPU and 3SPUs fit on the same real estate that would be occupied by a Bulldozer X86 CPU or 4 Jaguar X86 CPUs. I think so. It's doable and would provide for BC and other features. Will Sony do this, maybe. As you said we will see.

 

[KageMaru]

In calling it CELL or mini-cell you are confusing yourself and others! It's a catchy easy to type label but it leads to miss-understanding. I have to watch how I use the term because I have made the same mistake.

And as I've said it will be two packages of 1PPU4SPU or possibly 1PPU3SPU. The standard configuration of AMD APUs and it looks like SoCs is a 4 way cross bar switch with room for 4 CPU packages and each package has it's own cache and interface to the Xbar switch. The rumor is now 2 Jaguar CPU package that have 4 CPUs each and 2 megs of cache. That leaves room for two CPU packages I.E. two 1PPU3SPU CPU packages and cache.

Can 1PPU and 3SPUs fit on the same real estate that would be occupied by a Bulldozer X86 CPU or 4 Jaguar X86 CPUs. I think so.

In no way am I confusing myself.

Also none of this explains how a 1PPU/4SPU Cell would properly emulate a 1PPU/6SPU cell.

 

[onQ123]

16GB flash seems likely, considering that's what Sony is putting in their low end PS3 sometime soon. They probably got a good deal from a vendor. It'll almost certainly have an HDD, so what will they use it for??

I guess it will be for the OS & other things , just like the 4GB of flash is used in the PS Vita.

 

[hodgy100]

I doubt that. First PS2 PC emulation isn't 100% on top of the line computers. Second how much $$$ is it worth Sony to spend the R&D to do it. This is current Sony we are talking about.

(Looking at PSvita PSP/PS1 emulations)

A lot of PS2 games work fine on PCSX2 some with a few bugs here and there, there is nothing wrong with releasing a part-compatible emulator and updating it over time like sony did with the ps2 hardware/software emulation hybrid.

 

[Just Lazy]

Can I ask a noob question about possible bc in the PS4?

Are arguments against it happening because it's technically difficult to accomplish, or because it would push the price of the PS4 up substantially?

 

[RoboPlato]

Wow, some of the titles:

From multiple sources this applies to Next generation game consoles but probably not the PS3 and Xbox 360 refresh coming this year.



AMD’s “Jaguar”: A next generation low power x86 core.

FPGA Augmented ASICs: The Time Has Come

AMD HD7970 Graphics Core Next (GCN) Architecture

AMD Trinity Fusion APU

Wow, almost everything rumored for the PS4 will be here. Crazy.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

So basically we are going to get a peak at this next year at E3/some sony game conference? If they wait another year and do indeed want some current pc graphics card like the 7000 series ...they should be able to pull it off at 28nm atleast the graphics cards and processors.

 

[bgassassin]

http://www.hotchips.org/

August 27-29, 2012.

And here I was coming to post a reminder.

 

[onQ123]

And here I was coming to post a reminder.

Looks pretty suspicious huh?

 

[bgassassin]

Looks pretty suspicious huh?

What's that?

 

[onQ123]

What's that?

This

Wow, some of the titles:

AMD’s “Jaguar”: A next generation low power x86 core.

FPGA Augmented ASICs: The Time Has Come

AMD HD7970 Graphics Core Next (GCN) Architecture

AMD Trinity Fusion APU

 

[bgassassin]

This

Oh yeah. There are a lot of coincidences going on there.

 

[onQ123]

Oh yeah. There are a lot of coincidences going on there.

so was there a reason you was coming to remind us about Hot Chips?

like a tip off from someone?

 

[bgassassin]

so was there a reason you was coming to remind us about Hot Chips?

like a tip off from someone?

Nah. Just wanted to post a reminder about Jaguar being talked about there. Never paid attention to the other things jeff pointed out.

 

[onQ123]

Nah. Just wanted to post a reminder about Jaguar being talked about there. Never paid attention to the other things jeff pointed out.

I notice them when I 1st clicked on the website but it could mean nothing or it could be a look at a lot of things that will be in the PS4/Xbox Next.

 

[bgassassin]

I notice them when I 1st clicked on the website but it could mean nothing or it could be a look at a lot of things that will be in the PS4/Xbox Next.

I agree. But the possibility makes this interesting.

 

[iamvin22]

Bbgassassin, onQ123 how possible would it be to see a 7970M in the PS4? would it be a direct model or a modified version?

 

[bgassassin]

Bbgassassin, onQ123 how possible would it be to see a 7970M in the PS4? would it be a direct model or a modified version?

Unlikely as they can have something that is "leaner" than the 7970M. The supposed target is 18CUs and the 7970M has 20CUs.

 

[iamvin22]

Unlikely as they can have something that is "leaner" than the 7970M. The supposed target is 18CUs and the 7970M has 20CUs.

wouldnt the cost difference between 18CUs to 20CUs be low?

 

[bgassassin]

wouldnt the cost difference between 18CUs to 20CUs be low?

I'm sure it would be until you multiply it by 10M+ consoles.

 

[iamvin22]

I'm sure it would be until you multiply it by 10M+ consoles.

haha...yea i forgot about that. so what do you think will be the final spec, just guess?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Unlikely as they can have something that is "leaner" than the 7970M. The supposed target is 18CUs and the 7970M has 20CUs.

Also when I was quoted it left out this:

2.5D/3D die stacking increases aggregate inter-chip bandwidth and shrinks board footprint while reducing I/O latency and energy consumption. By integrating in one package multiple tightly-coupled semiconductor dice – each possibly in a process optimized for power, performance and costs for a particular function – this technology gives system designers additional options to partition and scale solutions efficiently. Die stacking has already transformed the design of high-end CMOS image sensors, and it promises to also enhance FPGA, graphics and mobile applications.

In Part 1 of this tutorial we will examine the key enabling technologies such as silicon interposer, TSV, micro-bump and assembly integration. In Part 2 we will cover the design considerations & trade-offs of 2.5D/3D in CAD, ESD and architecture. Part 3 will showcase how the technology is used in systems and applications for memory integration, optics integration and monolithic die partitioning.

AMD’s “Jaguar”: A next generation low power x86 core.

FPGA Augmented ASICs: The Time Has Come

AMD HD7970 Graphics Core Next (GCN) Architecture

AMD Trinity Fusion APU

The description of the 2.5D/3D stacking above would be in the PS4 as most of us have agreed based on the Sony CTO comments. To get the 2.5/3D stacking it will be a 2014 design which is the first AMD SoC that allows third party IP in the SoC which makes it a lock for a game console SoC that has Sony IP and is a custom design differing from the PC version.

Up until the 2014 AMD SoCs with stacking, it's a one silicon chip Fusion of CPU and GPU with only AMD designs. With 2.5D/3D other companies CPUs, FPGA, DSPs and more can be in the SoC and it can be a custom design.

Jaguar from multiple "leaks"
GCN GPU but with 2014 design it could and most likely will be a 8000 series that is 1.2 times as efficient as a 7000 series.

FPGA Augmented ASICs is interesting but there is no support for this other than the Sony CTO saying programmable arrays and Charlie at SimiAccurate interpreting that to mean FPGA. FPGA in addition to a GPU is currently how more efficient Ray tracing is accomplished. ASIC is an Application Specific Integrated Circuit and a GPU can be called a ASIC.

 

[mrklaw]

Ee wasn't dead end technology, the VUs created a foundation which CELL's SPEs expanded on massively.

And I still don't think CELL is dead end tech either. They might have mothballed it, but that doesn't stop it being a good solution for a gaming console. Not ideal for general purpose computing, but you could fit a ton of SPEs on a modern process chip. Isn't larrabee similar to what cell was doing?

Alternatively, if GPGPU does effectively the same thing, you could argue for a decent quad core CPU + GPGPU on the same die, with the GPGPU handling physics and other systems that are suited, the CPU doing housekeeping and more general tasks, and then a nice discrete GPU for rendering

 

[Xun]

The fact it's potentially codenamed 'Liverpool' is a bit ironic, eh?