AHA-Lambda
Member
Yeah, I agree with the OP and I am shocked more people don't call out Max Payne 3 on it's crap.
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Max Payne 3 is a bad game [very long rant]
- Thread starter Messofanego
- Start date
These are the same people that loved GTA4 over the previous games so it's no surprise.
BadAss2961
Member
So now you guys are saying that Rockstar should've made no progression from 2003 in regards to gameplay. You've officially lost it... You could even choose to play without using cover or shoulder aim if you wanted to. It would be harder, but still beatable.
And i'm a big fan of the whole series, there's nothing more for me to learn about MP 1 & 2.
I said my 2 cents, albeit it was humorous but it is what it is. It'd be nice to see a counter argument to my assertions.
Messofanego and I agree very clearly on Spec Ops: The Line, but I have to disagree with him for the most part on this thread. I pretty much enjoyed Max Payne 3, although I did not care enough to finish it.
I think it was a good game that still managed to be a disappointment to the franchise. It should have been "Max Payne: Subtitled Game" instead of MP3.
I think it was a good game that still managed to be a disappointment to the franchise. It should have been "Max Payne: Subtitled Game" instead of MP3.
Fox Mulder
Member
I haven't played Max Payne in years really, but recall them doing a lot of stuff in engine that this game uses a cutscene for.
I understand why people think the enemies in MP3 are bullet sponges, but they aren't. You can kill everyone with an accurate headshot once you pop off a helmet. I did get annoyed with guys standing up after I thought they were dead, but they were usually also heavily armored military guys I was dumping into lazily.
It's a game about shooting and the shooting is really clunky Rockstar crap. The overly rigid structure (cutscene, room fills up w enemies, shoot, repeat, sprinkle in turrets) was annoying and made it feel amateur-ish, but its the terrible gameplay that really made me detest it. It's the reason I have very little hope for GTA5.
spindoctor
Member
Max Payne 3 was fantastic. They made a few bad design choices like the unskippable cutscenes which killed any replayability the game had and the over use of post processing effects, but that's really it. Maybe getting up from a shootdodge was kind of slower than I would have liked but it wasn't a game breaking issue. What we got was a game that ran beautifully, looked fabulous (with amazing attention to detail in the level design) and it absolutely nailed the core shooting gameplay of the series. Yea the story wasn't amazing but really, 99% of all games don't have great stories either.
I agree with every word that OP said, I didn't play a Max Payne game, I played a Rockstar game and a shitty one at that. Everyone's a asshole and has deep personal flaws, every other event you go through is fucked up and sadistic just because, etc. etc. I didn't pay that much for it but I still feel like I was ripped off. People saying the game has deep meanings and a good story make me laugh, you're giving rockstar wayyyyyy too much credit.
I find the gameplay of MP3 a step up compare to the previous games, in which, I replayed both as well before the release of 3.
Unskippable cut scenes were a bit of an annoyance but I liked the visual style of the cut scenes so it didn't make my 2nd and 3rd playthroughs as bad as OPs.
Also, shoot dodge and euphoria weren't annoying if you were playing smart and not dodging head first like in some of the gifs posted in the OP. It's like saying cars are not fun to drive on race tracks and then posting videos of two-year-olds driving.
The cover system was my biggest gripe, but I adjusted my play style and then it wasn't an issue for me.
I really enjoyed the game since I felt the thrilling gunplay made it worth forgiving its faults.
Also, shoot dodge and euphoria weren't annoying if you were playing smart and not dodging head first like in some of the gifs posted in the OP. It's like saying cars are not fun to drive on race tracks and then posting videos of two-year-olds driving.
The cover system was my biggest gripe, but I adjusted my play style and then it wasn't an issue for me.
I really enjoyed the game since I felt the thrilling gunplay made it worth forgiving its faults.
Beelzeboss
Member
Max Payne 3 was a fantastic game when I played it. There isn't a shooter out there that felt quite like it.
The weight of your character makes you feel slow and heavy but at the same time it lets you go all out and do crazy flips and stunts and shoot heads before you hit the ground. It's also a game that rewards quick thinking and reflexes which I appreciated a lot.
The weight of your character makes you feel slow and heavy but at the same time it lets you go all out and do crazy flips and stunts and shoot heads before you hit the ground. It's also a game that rewards quick thinking and reflexes which I appreciated a lot.
DerZuhälter
Member
Max Payne 3 is for it's technical mumbo-jumbo a terrible step back in terms of gameplay, narrative and characterization from the Max Payne series.
People ripping the OP for "playing the game wrong" amuse me. What does that even mean? Since he finished the game right up to the last boss on hard he clearly isn't "bad".
People ripping the OP for "playing the game wrong" amuse me. What does that even mean? Since he finished the game right up to the last boss on hard he clearly isn't "bad".
For me the game was spot on technically, the story however was awful in my opinion, had absolutely nothing to do with the previous installments. No meaningful revenge, irritating characters no one really wants to protect, brazillian setting is not suitable for the noir feeling Max Payne is supposed to have and the overexposition of drunkiness was too much.
Still enjoyed the game for the shooter it is, with incredible graphics, sound and gameplay.
Still enjoyed the game for the shooter it is, with incredible graphics, sound and gameplay.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
Max in MP3 is inconsistent compared to 1 & 2. The fact that he's an alcoholic doesn't make him a strong character, it even makes him weaker because of how stereotypical he is. His annoying comments about how he's an alcoholic and fucks up all the time, and that he doesn't ever shut the fuck up about it is just all around bad writing. The pill popping aspect is bad because in previous games popping painkillers was a completely gamey aspect of them, it wasn't relevant to the plot. The fact that they make a gameplay mechanic a base for the character just smells of a parody.
It's weird how you say Max didn't have any motives in MP1 and then you say how he kills the woman responsible for his pain. Isn't that motivation enough? You know, seeing your wife and child killed by some junkies sent by that woman? True he doesn't find out until later, but his motivation led to that. Wisecracks were part of the character who was a part of the setting. It fit, that's why it worked. Also it didn't interfere with gameplay.
In MP2 it was clear that Max accepted his fate. His love story with Mona server as character development for both of them. And it worked. The fact that they completely ditched that at writing Max in MP3 served as a big fuck you to the fans.
I agree with your other points as i don't like the writing in MP3, but this smells like bullshit to me.
I think it was a nice idea and parody (or self parody) has always been an element of Max Payne, breaking the 4th wall and all that jazz.
So basically the equivalent of a "cool story bro".
mentalfloss
Banned
I didn't bother reading the OP because I knew it would be a waste of time.
Max Payne 3 is a fantastic game.
Max Payne 3 is a fantastic game.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
What was his motivation in MP3?
Well I always have problems with describing my problem with this, and I see that I worded it poorly, so here's what I mean:
I don't really mind parody in Max Payne games, I thought "I was in a videogame" scene was some of the funniest moments I've seen in a videogame. It's just this attempt at parody contradicts the character of Max in MP 1 & 2.
You make it sound like Max is sobbing in a corner the entire time. If seeing his family getting murdered in MP1 is enough to justify his shortcomings as a character, why wouldn't that event and everything else he's been through justify his self medicating with alcohol?
Max being more self aware and emotional in MP3 made me care much more about him as a character, protagonists in games are usually one dimensional in the emotional and thinking categories, playing as a middle aged alcoholic who knows he's down on his luck was refreshing as hell.
He had none until Passos threw him into a situation where he would be deemed to fail and take the blame for his shortcomings.
Max had nothing to live for before the job, when everything he stood to protect was wiped out he made it a priority to protect anyone he could. Even if it meant his death.
Rawket Lawnchair
Member
It certainly is flawed, but by no means a bad game.
I think it's a bad Max Payne game, but not a bad game overall.
I would have liked to have seen a greater emphasis on bullet time and shoot dodging, rather than chest high cover and headshots. The Euphoria animation is also a detriment to the gameplay mechanics.
That pretty much sums it up.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
You took one sentence out of context which was that Max at the ending of MP2 was somewhat fixed, as in he accepted what happened to him and moved on. The fact that they made him an alcoholic piece of shit with no explanation was a big fuck you to the fans.
Funny you should say that Max was more emotional in MP3. Alcoholics are uncapable of conveying higher feelings and criticism. Max in MP1 was a wisecracker with gold heart, he was subtle about his emotions because it fit with the setting.
So basically, his motivations is that he is depressed alcoholic and doesn't give a shit about what happens to him, that makes him very likable.
So I played Max Payne 3 when it came out and recently went back and done a marathon playing MP1,2 and 3.
Rockstar really did fuck up Max. He acts nothing like what he did in MP1 and 2. In Rockstars version he, like the OP pointed out, for some reason is some dumb crazy gringo, suicidal and an alcoholic. It makes no sense why Max would be like this other than to force him to go to Brazil for a "New Start".
Just look at the last scene of Max Payne 2.
He finally came to terms with his loss of his wife but at the start of MP3 Max is a wreck and can't get over that his wife is dead.
http://youtu.be/inRniIN_dio?t=55s
Really? How does that make any sense? They just ignore what happened in MP2?
I do have to say though I think the gameplay in MP3 is really good. It's what I'd expect a Max Payne game to play like in 2012 so I give Rockstar credit for that. It's just a shame that they clearly put emphasis on the cinematic side of the game and made the dumb decisions of not letting us skip cutscenes.
Rockstar really did fuck up Max. He acts nothing like what he did in MP1 and 2. In Rockstars version he, like the OP pointed out, for some reason is some dumb crazy gringo, suicidal and an alcoholic. It makes no sense why Max would be like this other than to force him to go to Brazil for a "New Start".
Just look at the last scene of Max Payne 2.
He finally came to terms with his loss of his wife but at the start of MP3 Max is a wreck and can't get over that his wife is dead.
http://youtu.be/inRniIN_dio?t=55s
Really? How does that make any sense? They just ignore what happened in MP2?
I do have to say though I think the gameplay in MP3 is really good. It's what I'd expect a Max Payne game to play like in 2012 so I give Rockstar credit for that. It's just a shame that they clearly put emphasis on the cinematic side of the game and made the dumb decisions of not letting us skip cutscenes.
During my first playthrough of Max Payne 3, I hated it. I found the enemies to be bullet sponges and I just wasn't having fun.
Then I discovered you had infinite shoot dodge and the little "x" that appears in your crosshairs to let you know when your target is dead. I was then shoot dodging all the time and going for head shots.
Now it's my favorite game of 2012.
Then I discovered you had infinite shoot dodge and the little "x" that appears in your crosshairs to let you know when your target is dead. I was then shoot dodging all the time and going for head shots.
Now it's my favorite game of 2012.
Conciliator
Banned
Yeah I think it's trash too. Maybe the gunplay is fine, I don't know, but it ain't thrilling, and that combined with the awful checkpointing, a story just doesn't have near enough juice to justify the run time and the wacky ludonarrative dissonance made in an eye-rolling and tedious experience for me. The stucture is obviously hyper-linear which most of us condemn a lot of time. If you have the narrative that you can work with that(Uncharted 2) but it's just not there in Max Payne 3.
What? Alcoholics can't convey feelings and criticisms? How did you learn that?
So if you don't like or root a character, the character is poorly written and poorly realized?
That doesn't make sense.
BadAss2961
Member
Play the game long enough and you'll realize that bullet time and shoot dodging are still the most effective ways of clearing most areas.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
This guy has it right. I want to see how you counter this argument.
Liquid_Bike
Member
Pretty much my thoughts. The mechanics are the most fun of any 3rd person shooter.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
School.
The Crimson Kid
what are you waiting for
While I was annoyed by the NPCs telling you to move forward really often and not being able to skip cutscenes is a regretful oversight due to how long they can be, most of the criticisms of the gameplay I have seen since release, including the ones in the OP, have been well off the mark.
Having played Max Payne 2 right before 3 came out (still a great game), I have to conclude that many people have been viewing the previous games with rose-tinted glasses. Rockstar certainly made plenty of changes, but the core principles of classic Max Payne gameplay are all here in 3, even if it goes about meeting them in a couple different ways.
In the previous games, the gameplay hinged around using the Bullet Time system smartly. Due to how quick and vicious enemies were, not using Bullet Time was a recipe for certain death. Since Bullet Time was a limited resource regained by killing enemies, it had to be used smartly. If you shootdodged in MP2 and didn't take out a couple enemies in the process, not only did you waste most of your meter, you were probably going to die due to exposure in a couple seconds. If you managed to survive and get back behind cover without any Bullet Time left, then you had to strafe in and out of cover to kill a couple guys or wait for it to slowly regenerate, which didn't work if the enemy was flanking or had explosive projectiles. You had to be mindful of the moves you were performing to succeed.
All of this is true in 3 as well. Instead of strafing back and forth, they added a cover system, which works better in a pinch but is not meant to be relied upon unless absolutely necessary. Taking cover is needed a bit more often than it was in the previous games for several reasons, but they didn't turn Max Payne into a cover-based third person shooter like Gears of War. You could choose to sit behind cover and pick guys off one by one in every Max Payne game, and it's a bit easier in this one, but that certainly isn't the most fun or most effective way to play any of the games. The necessity of being mindful of your actions before executing them is even more pronounced in 3 due to not being able to shootdodge head-on into a wall and Max being older and heavier. I found the slower-than-average movement of Max to add an extra bit of challenge to the combat by forcing you to think ahead more and commit to a plan of action without being able to abort the plan as easily. There is certainly more animation priority when it comes to Max's movement, but it only serves to heighten the necessity of planning ahead that has always been a part of Max Payne.
Also, I firmly believe that Remedy was always trying to create a Hollywood-style action game with a strong sense of physicality, weight, and a convincing illusion of realism to the combat. From modeling each individual bullet in 3D space in the original to the use of Havok physics in MP2 (both unprecedented developments in gaming at the time), the Remedy games have always gone out of their way to heighten the sense of weight and physicality in the combat while adding enough detail to make the world and the combat have a strong semblance of realistic believability, which served to make the combat seem all the more intense and awesome. These aims and objectives are continued in 3.
It's worth noting that while character movement is slower, you are still able to aim and shoot just as quick and just as often as you can in the previous games. Unless you are diving head-first into a wall, of course.
People throwing the term "input lag" around regarding the shooting don't know what they are talking about, simple as that.
I also think the complaint about "bullet sponges" to be pretty limp as well. While later enemies can be pretty tough, it's all about where you are shooting them. I've had more issue with "bullet sponge" enemies where you have no choice but to pump dozens of rounds into an enemy in plenty of other TPS games (such as Gears and Uncharted) than I had here.
Unrelated to the gameplay, I found the way Max changed from 2 to 3 to be pretty natural and convincing as well. Considering what went down in 2 and how 3 quickly establishes that Max has spent the interim years down, depressed, drunk, and lost, it didn't seem like much of a stretch to see him be as down on himself and snappier/angrier to others (always when he was drunk) in this game. And of course he's not going to be as subtle; it's a Rockstar game! I had issues with the story, but the way they treated Max was not one of them.
Max Payne 3 has some larger issues with the plot, a few scenarios are poorly designed, and the QTE sequences are all terrible. MP3 isn't as great across the board as 2 was. On the whole, though, I found Max Payne 3 to be a worthy successor to Remedy's games. Even though Rockstar approached Max Payne from a different angle than Remedy had, they ended up nailing most of the key themes of the gameplay of the originals while putting their own distinctive stamp on the series.
I attributed much of that to the flavorful writing that Rockstar is known for compared to Remedy's obsession with making Max feel like the perfect fit in a film-noir movie. Remedy used much of their dialogue with Max to set a tone, with the objective being to ape film-noir. That didn't leave a ton of room for Max to express himself clearly too often. In 3, they have more tools to set the tone and scenario, leaving Max more time to emote. Also, they give Max a lot more time to do so with the volume of cutscenes the game has.
People need to remember that several years took place between 2 and 3. He may have found a bit of peace at the end of 2, but 3 quickly shows that the interim years have not been kind or productive for Max. Whether you agree with the decision to take Max in that direction or not is fine, but they did, and they do a good enough job of setting up a convincing scenario for Max to be the way he is in 3.
Having played Max Payne 2 right before 3 came out (still a great game), I have to conclude that many people have been viewing the previous games with rose-tinted glasses. Rockstar certainly made plenty of changes, but the core principles of classic Max Payne gameplay are all here in 3, even if it goes about meeting them in a couple different ways.
In the previous games, the gameplay hinged around using the Bullet Time system smartly. Due to how quick and vicious enemies were, not using Bullet Time was a recipe for certain death. Since Bullet Time was a limited resource regained by killing enemies, it had to be used smartly. If you shootdodged in MP2 and didn't take out a couple enemies in the process, not only did you waste most of your meter, you were probably going to die due to exposure in a couple seconds. If you managed to survive and get back behind cover without any Bullet Time left, then you had to strafe in and out of cover to kill a couple guys or wait for it to slowly regenerate, which didn't work if the enemy was flanking or had explosive projectiles. You had to be mindful of the moves you were performing to succeed.
All of this is true in 3 as well. Instead of strafing back and forth, they added a cover system, which works better in a pinch but is not meant to be relied upon unless absolutely necessary. Taking cover is needed a bit more often than it was in the previous games for several reasons, but they didn't turn Max Payne into a cover-based third person shooter like Gears of War. You could choose to sit behind cover and pick guys off one by one in every Max Payne game, and it's a bit easier in this one, but that certainly isn't the most fun or most effective way to play any of the games. The necessity of being mindful of your actions before executing them is even more pronounced in 3 due to not being able to shootdodge head-on into a wall and Max being older and heavier. I found the slower-than-average movement of Max to add an extra bit of challenge to the combat by forcing you to think ahead more and commit to a plan of action without being able to abort the plan as easily. There is certainly more animation priority when it comes to Max's movement, but it only serves to heighten the necessity of planning ahead that has always been a part of Max Payne.
Also, I firmly believe that Remedy was always trying to create a Hollywood-style action game with a strong sense of physicality, weight, and a convincing illusion of realism to the combat. From modeling each individual bullet in 3D space in the original to the use of Havok physics in MP2 (both unprecedented developments in gaming at the time), the Remedy games have always gone out of their way to heighten the sense of weight and physicality in the combat while adding enough detail to make the world and the combat have a strong semblance of realistic believability, which served to make the combat seem all the more intense and awesome. These aims and objectives are continued in 3.
It's worth noting that while character movement is slower, you are still able to aim and shoot just as quick and just as often as you can in the previous games. Unless you are diving head-first into a wall, of course.
People throwing the term "input lag" around regarding the shooting don't know what they are talking about, simple as that.
I also think the complaint about "bullet sponges" to be pretty limp as well. While later enemies can be pretty tough, it's all about where you are shooting them. I've had more issue with "bullet sponge" enemies where you have no choice but to pump dozens of rounds into an enemy in plenty of other TPS games (such as Gears and Uncharted) than I had here.
Unrelated to the gameplay, I found the way Max changed from 2 to 3 to be pretty natural and convincing as well. Considering what went down in 2 and how 3 quickly establishes that Max has spent the interim years down, depressed, drunk, and lost, it didn't seem like much of a stretch to see him be as down on himself and snappier/angrier to others (always when he was drunk) in this game. And of course he's not going to be as subtle; it's a Rockstar game! I had issues with the story, but the way they treated Max was not one of them.
Max Payne 3 has some larger issues with the plot, a few scenarios are poorly designed, and the QTE sequences are all terrible. MP3 isn't as great across the board as 2 was. On the whole, though, I found Max Payne 3 to be a worthy successor to Remedy's games. Even though Rockstar approached Max Payne from a different angle than Remedy had, they ended up nailing most of the key themes of the gameplay of the originals while putting their own distinctive stamp on the series.
I attributed much of that to the flavorful writing that Rockstar is known for compared to Remedy's obsession with making Max feel like the perfect fit in a film-noir movie. Remedy used much of their dialogue with Max to set a tone, with the objective being to ape film-noir. That didn't leave a ton of room for Max to express himself clearly too often. In 3, they have more tools to set the tone and scenario, leaving Max more time to emote. Also, they give Max a lot more time to do so with the volume of cutscenes the game has.
People need to remember that several years took place between 2 and 3. He may have found a bit of peace at the end of 2, but 3 quickly shows that the interim years have not been kind or productive for Max. Whether you agree with the decision to take Max in that direction or not is fine, but they did, and they do a good enough job of setting up a convincing scenario for Max to be the way he is in 3.
You went to a fucked up school then.
People change, people may swear to something or have deep feelings for another but over time that may change. Call it a cop out, but it's 100% true.
timetokill
Banned
Uncharted did this shit too, with a terrible boss battle that punishes you for not playing it exactly how the designers want you to. I guess it was an omen of things to come for ND.
I haven't played Max Payne 3 so I can't comment on it, though. I will say that I had no problem with Euphoria and John Marston in RDR. Loved that game.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
Why am I not surprised that you didn't provide any argument to prove that I'm wrong.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
Reading the OPs rant was like looking into the mind of all those terrible preview/review journos that you just wanna reach through the screen and strangle because they are simply terrible at the game.
Almost every gif you posted (and the complaints attached to each) looked like you are just bad/rushed/confused/frazzled whatever you wanna call it when you were playing. After taking one header into a wall while diving I laughed like a madman and then .. you'll never guess... starting looking where i was going to dive/jump. It's not the games fault you drive the character into walls and counters and windows time and again. That's on you.
Not liking a game for it's setting or the characters or whatever is one thing. Entirely legit if you simply don't like a game. But to say it's a bad game... i dunno.. i think you need to just git gud.
Loved it myself despite it's incredibly short playtime which is my only real complaint (that i gloss over because i copped it new for 20 bucks.)
Almost every gif you posted (and the complaints attached to each) looked like you are just bad/rushed/confused/frazzled whatever you wanna call it when you were playing. After taking one header into a wall while diving I laughed like a madman and then .. you'll never guess... starting looking where i was going to dive/jump. It's not the games fault you drive the character into walls and counters and windows time and again. That's on you.
Not liking a game for it's setting or the characters or whatever is one thing. Entirely legit if you simply don't like a game. But to say it's a bad game... i dunno.. i think you need to just git gud.
Loved it myself despite it's incredibly short playtime which is my only real complaint (that i gloss over because i copped it new for 20 bucks.)
BadAss2961
Member
About what? This?
The fact that you think alcoholics can't have deep or complex feeling sorta startled me, one of the most wrong things I've ever heard on NeoGaf.