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[UrbanRats]

The gameplay (which Rockstar didn't completely fuck up, because hey it's hard to fuck up MP's gameplay) is solid, outside of the shitty cover mechanics that sometimes work or don't work.

The cover system works well in the game.
You're not supposed to rely on it too much in the first place, since bullet time and diving are your most powerful tools (given that most covers get destroyed, in the game), it can however be used to plan your next kill streak and coreography, something that you were doing in previous Max Payne too, in a way, by simply standing behind a corner.

 

[BadAss2961]

No, my issue with Pax Mayne 3 is 1: it's offensive to my sensibilities in regards to the cutscenes (not skippable/FILTER USED EVERY FUCKING TEN SECONDS BECAUSE HEY GUYZ DID YOU KNOW MAX IS A PILL-BOOZE-HOLIC!?) 2: story is ass 3: Max as a character is ass.

2-3 and more important since Remedy/Sam Lake's writing is what made the previous two outings good. Max was likeable because he had nothing to lose after his wife and kids died. Rockstar basically went "fuck that, we're making him depressed just because!" after the fact he basically killed the people that pulled the strings that lead to his wife and baby daughters death.

The gameplay (which Rockstar didn't completely fuck up, because hey it's hard to fuck up MP's gameplay) is solid, outside of the shitty cover mechanics that sometimes work or don't work.

Other than Max getting stuck a few times (which you can roll out of), I had no problems with the cover mechanics. It's pretty much the standard cover system that every other third person shooter has.

The cover system works well in the game.
You're not supposed to rely on it too much in the first place, since bullet time and diving are your most powerful tools (given that most covers get destroyed, in the game), it can however be used to plan your next kill streak and coreography, something that you were doing in previous Max Payne too, in a way, by simply standing behind a corner.

This.

 

[Neiteio]

Haven't played this game, but wanted to commend the OP for his excellent writeup. I don't know if I'd have the same take on the game, but having played RDR and GTAIV, I can at least picture the bumbling gait the character has when walking. That drives me nutty in Rockstar games.

 

[Mizzou Gaming]

I hate it when people have to make personal attacks to express their thoughts on a game. I don't care that he hates it but attacking other's opinions to express yours really destroys any notion of credibility.

 

[Corky]

Can we now get banned for disagreeing with an OP ?

Why... of course not.

 

[Jack Scofield]

I actually agree with a lot of your points, but I still enjoyed the game. Max's animations we horrible from a gameplay perspective, I agree. It's ridiculous how long it takes you to recover from an impact against a wall or piece of cover.

Riddling the last enemy in an area with bullets is a great feature, though.

 

[NullPointer]

Haven't played this game, but wanted to commend the OP for his excellent writeup.

Same here honestly. I disagree with almost all of it and had a completely different experience with the game, but at least I can understand where the OP is coming from.

This game took me a while to get used to, but it stuck with me, so I stuck with it, and I'm glad I did. Don't know of another shooter quite like it.

 

[solarus]

That moment did nothing for me. It was pretty underwhelming even. I mean the airport scene is like another "Damn, another guys to shoot to get to my objective", and they decide to play this to make it awesome, why? It was just another "shoot enemies so you can get one step closer to your goal", it wasn't like you were achieving something big story or gameplay wise. Without the music that moment wouldn't have been remembered at all. "Tears" is a great track, don't get me wrong, it was just horribly misused.

I completely agree with this, gaf really exaggerates how amazing thay moment is.

 

[legacyzero]

The gameplay is not why I dont like Max Payne 3.

It's EVERYTHING ELSE. The ruined story, horrible setting for Max, terrible Man On Fire cut scenes, etc.

Max was horribly out of his element in Brazil. They should have kept him in New York. It would have been enough for me.

Putting Max Payne in Brazil for his new job is like putting John McClaine in a group of computer nerds to fight the hacking and ruination of Americas infrastructure.

 

[UrbanRats]

I hate it when people have to make personal attacks to express their thoughts on a game. I don't care that he hates it but attacking other's opinions to express yours really destroys any notion of credibility.

Ask him about Holy Motors.

 

[NullPointer]

I completely agree with this, gaf really exaggerates how amazing thay moment is.

Its more of a gameplay moment than a story one. The game funnels you room to room, over the top sequence to over the top sequence - but that airport terminal is just one big ass open space. You're fully unleashed for once, and just as you feel it, the music kicks in and drives it home.

 

[Messofanego]

Maybe I should reiterate, I don't have an issue with the design decisions that Rockstar went with but the way they executed the frequency of cutscenes and Max Payne moaning and bitching made for a very grating experience. To compare with Alan Wake, he can sprint for so long until he gets tired way quicker than other videogame shooter characters. I'm fine with gameplay in line with a character, but with Max Payne in this third game it's just not consistent to what he can do.

I played as much as I could without using cover. But walking around with bullet time on is asking for a death sentence on Hard. And shoot-dodging, an essential feature of any Max Payne game IS messed up with the animations.

I only posted the diving into wall gif to show how long it takes to get back up (3 seconds), and how the camera does you no favors during that. Obviously I will be diving strategically when I need to, but because of the claustrophobic level design you will eventually be hitting obstacles that bring up my frustrations with the animations.

 

[Neuromancer]

That sounds like something just a drunkard would attempt, to be fair.

Haha true.

 

[BadAss2961]

I actually agree with a lot of your points, but I still enjoyed the game. Max's animations we horrible from a gameplay perspective, I agree. It's ridiculous how long it takes you to recover from an impact against a wall or piece of cover.

Riddling the last enemy in an area with bullets is a great feature, though.

Is it? Dive off your feet into a wall and see how fast you get up.

 

[MuddyDonut]

Hated my time playing it, terrible experience. Completed 1 & 2 for the first time right after Max Payne 3 and had a much much better time playing those.

 

[Messofanego]

Is it? Dive off your feet into a wall and see how fast you get up.

Was Max Payne 3 billed as a simulator? This argument really goes so far until ludonarrative dissonance shows up.

 

[BadAss2961]

Was Max Payne 3 billed as a simulator? This argument really goes so far until ludonarrative dissonance shows up.

You mention that this messes up shoot-dodging, how so? It's intentional, and all you have to do to avoid it is watch where you're diving.

 

[UrbanRats]

I played as much as I could without using cover. But walking around with bullet time on is asking for a death sentence on Hard. And shoot-dodging, an essential feature of any Max Payne game IS messed up with the animations.

I only posted the diving into wall gif to show how long it takes to get back up (3 seconds), and how the camera does you no favors during that. Obviously I will be diving strategically when I need to, but because of the claustrophobic level design you will eventually be hitting obstacles that bring up my frustrations with the animations.

You're not supposed to avoid cover mechanics just to stay true to the Max Payne experience, as stated above, you have to integrate them INTO the bullet time mechanics.
The game is NOT mean tot be played as a traditional cover shooter and it's NOT meant to be played (exactly) like the old Max Payne games.
The game is meant to be played as Max Payne 3, and you have to juggle the tools you've been given, which include covers, diving, slowing time down and so forth.

Yes, it takes a long time to stand up after a failed jump, partly because of the character, but partly because you are supposed to plan ahead WHEN and WHERE you're gonna jump!
If it's a corridor and you still plan to dive sideways, the game ought to punish you for that bad planning and that's exactly when you're needing that cover system to let you scout around, before mindlessly jumping in the next crossfire.

You mention that this messes up shoot-dodging, how so? It's intentional, and all you have to do to avoid it is watch where you're diving.

Bingo.
When you don't fail a dive, not only Max stands up faster, but you also have the option fo stay down and keep shooting.
The game also rewards badass and bold moves, with a partial refill of your bullet time gauge, and that's another way of using it, stay on the ground and pop the heads off in slow mo.
But again, you have to plan that ahead of time, you can't just jump in the ground and hope to cap everyone like Robocop.
Unless you've got mad skillz, i guess.

 

[zkylon]

Agree on most stuff.

A total disgrace as a Max Payne game, I've said it a bunch of times, I wish I had payed 60 bucks for Alan Wake and 10 bucks for Max Payne 3.

 

[NullPointer]

Was Max Payne 3 billed as a simulator?

Its has its own weight and heft - that's part of MP3's identity, and a Rockstar thing in general these days.

The fact that its slower to get up than in other games just means there is a different balance of risk and reward, not that they're doing it wrong.

The game is meant to be played as Max Payne 3, and you have to juggle the tools you've been given, which include covers, diving, slowing time down and so forth.

Really, this.

I see this a lot around here (and in the press to be fair) - where people don't seem to be playing the game in front of them on its own merits, but the game they have imagined in their head, and when the two disagree that becomes a failure of the game. Yes, this is still a Max Payne game, and it still has Max Payne trappings and mechanics, but this one has its own identity separate from the two games that came before.

 

[chickdigger802]

something about the balance feels off. Like they try to add realism to how guns feel and how fragile/weighty max is, but they still throw a cartoonish amount of baddies at you at a time, so while every battle does feel... like a risky endeavor, it's not really what I expect from this series, which you usually are a Matrix/John Woo shooting man.

Maybe I am just playing it wrong, don't know.

 

[Neuromancer]

something about the balance feels off. Like they try to add realism to how guns feel and how fragile/weighty max is, but they still throw a cartoonish amount of baddies at you at a time.

Maybe I am just playing it wrong, don't know.

This is my issue with all Rockstar games this generation (except for Table Tennis of course.). It's ridiculous. They always want to have it both ways.

 

[mickcenary]

The brunt of OP's argument boils down to Rockstar's patented jank and frankly, it's one hell of an argument in my eyes. Rockstar still have little idea of how to make TPS player movement feel good and that's pretty much a deal-breaker.

Also, the way cutscenes are handled is fucking ludicrous and whoever was in directorial charge should have been sacked.

 

[antitrop]

The brunt of OP's argument boils down to Rockstar's patented jank and frankly, it's one hell of an argument in my eyes. Rockstar still have little idea of how to make TPS player movement feel good and that's pretty much a deal-breaker.

Also, the way cutscenes are handled is fucking ludicrous and whoever was in directorial charge should have been sacked.

Worst cut scenes of 2012. Watching any single moment of any of them was a painful chore.

 

[BadAss2961]

something about the balance feels off. Like they try to add realism to how guns feel and how fragile/weighty max is, but they still throw a cartoonish amount of baddies at you at a time, so while every battle does feel... like a risky endeavor, it's not really what I expect from this series, which you usually are a Matrix/John Woo shooting man.

Maybe I am just playing it wrong, don't know.

Max feels weighty and everything, but is still more than capable of handling the cartoonish amount of enemies thrown at him. The game isn't even that hard.

 

[zkylon]

My only quirk with the OP is that I actually found Euphoria to be pretty satisfying, when the game allowed me to play, but even then, I don't see it as an upgrade on MP2's gameplay.

 

[Sentenza]

The brunt of OP's argument boils down to Rockstar's patented jank and frankly, it's one hell of an argument in my eyes. Rockstar still have little idea of how to make TPS player movement feel good and that's pretty much a deal-breaker.

Honestly there are plenty of flaws I could point to this game, but the shooting felt *great* as far as I'm concerned.
There was a very convincing balance between realism and fun, and the technology behind it was simply impressive at times.
Not sure of what better TPS you are thinking about, but I would guess that if you are going to list five, I would find at least four of them actually worse than this one.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

Wow Messo, that's how you do an OP!

But I'd echo what Eggman said, all those gif's served as little but evidence of your ineptitude at the game. You complain about the cover system, then post 2 gif's in which you dive sideways into some stairs 3ft to your left, and try to dive forward from a 8ft high cover point.

I don't think they had the effect you'd hoped.

 

[NullPointer]

OP was worth the read even just for this:

Somebody needs to mod Zach Payne. ;P

 

[NinjaBoiX]

Also, the game is nails. Playing on hard was a mistake.

 

[mickcenary]

Honestly there are plenty of flaws I could point to this game, but the shooting felt *great* as far as I'm concerned.
There was a very convincing balance between realism and fun, and the technology behind it was simply impressive at times.
Not sure of what better TPS you are thinking about, but I would guess that if you are going to list five, I would find at least four of them actually worse than this one.

Don't get me wrong, the shooting itself is pretty bueno; it's the parts in between that ruin everything. When you haven't been taken out of gameplay - for the 10th time in 2 minutes, mind you - for a cutscene showing Max climb through a goddamn window, moving Max around still feels like a slightly more refined GTAIV, which is to say, pretty piss-poor. Shoot-dodging and actual shooting feels good, but walking, running, taking cover... Jank Central, yo.

As for its peers that do TP navigation better: Gears 3, Vanquish, Dark Souls... basically the majority of third-person games made by any competent developer. Rockstar just can't do TP movement.

 

[Dick Justice]

So much hate and stupidity in here. Game was, IMO, great fun, with a story that drew me in (I've played the previous games, btw). It's got its flaws, sure, but I still played the shit out of it. Even if those fucking unskippable cutscenes hampered things a bit.

 

[ZoddGutts]

The game was so bad that the studio that made the game was shut down.

 

[Fjordson]

:lol GAF is so weird with Rockstar games. So extreme.

Anyways, I really enjoyed it. Hope they make Max Payne 4 someday.

Yeah, I agree with the OP and I am shocked more people don't call out Max Payne 3 on it's crap.

Not sure if serious. I see "R* is one of the worst developers ever" a few times a week on GAF and have seen numerous rants against MP 3 on here as well.

 

[Lagunamov]

I agree with op. Max Payne 3 has a shitty story, an average writting and a worst gameplay. One of the most generics games of this gen.

 

[Tookay]

I agree with the OP on pretty much everything he said.

Rockstar has always favored its brand of style and Euphoria physics over responsive gameplay mechanics, but this was the game where the worst of their excesses came out. The gunplay itself is probably the best they have done, but that's not enough. Their other games were able to cover up their mediocrity from a TPS standpoint with open-world aspects or vehicles, but to strip that all away reveals that they are still behind most other developers in the ability to control characters in a tactile way. The cover system is limited and shitty and totally at odds with making the game flow, to say nothing of the cutscenes constantly interrupting it.

The characters are caricatures, turning a paper-thin story that would not last longer than a 90-minute film into some never-ending tour of misery through San Paolo. There wasn't a single likeable person in the cast; they are all the stereotypical Rockstar douchebags. The company's writing is getting real tiresome in how "in-you-face" it always is. It's constant cynicism, self-loathing, and contempt, without a justification of why these people deserve your time.

I keep on telling myself that I'm done with Rockstar, then getting pulled back in after all the hype, but I think MP3 finally snapped me out of it. There's certain thing that are never going to change, and Rockstar's bad habits are one of them.

 

[DjRoomba]

 

[Card Boy]

So much hate and stupidity in here. Game was, IMO, great fun, with a story that drew me in (I've played the previous games, btw). It's got its flaws, sure, but I still played the shit out of it. Even if those fucking unskippable cutscenes hampered things a bit.

The biggest crime of Max Payne 3 was the absense of Dick Justice.

 

[Javaman]

I have just got to say that that is the most impressive OP I've ever seen on complaining about something.

 

[Dick Justice]

The biggest crime of Max Payne 3 was the absense of Dick Justice.

It was like a gut punch straight through my soul when he never appeared

 

[Neuromancer]

I have just got to say that that is the most impressive OP I've ever seen on complaining about something.

I know, I'm pretty impressed too. Whether you agree with it or not you have to appreciate the effort.

 

[Sojgat]

Regardless of how much anyone does, or does not enjoy the shooting mechanics, Max Payne 3 still takes control away from the player every chance it gets, it's a bad game.

The way MP3 communicates it's story obstructs the very act of playing it, in probably the most frequent, and intrusive ways ever seen in a video game. It's incompetent to the point of ludicrousness.

The better I got at the thing, the more hated it. I'd Breeze through a gameplay section in under 2 minutes to be welcomed by yet another 5 minute cutscene where Max craps on about what a worthless piece of shit he'd become.

Well, you're right Max. You're a lumbering, slow-witted, worthless mess, who treats everyone he encounters like an asshole, just like your game.

 

[DrPirate]

Bought it 4 days ago, and completed twice.

Loved everything about it except the unskippable cutscenes, and this one glitch where Max was frozen to his cover in the Stadium.

Everything else was stellar. Max Payne 3 is fantastic.

 

[Riggs]

This game was amazing for me, loved the gun play.

 

[joeygreco1985]

Max Payne 3 was one of my favorite games from last year. This topic Sucks.

 

[black_13]

Jesus if you consider Max Payne 3 a bad game then I wanna see what you consider a good game.

Every damn game I've played has had some jerky animation if you mess around long enough. You can't just point out a couple instances and say its really bad.
It's supposed to be a cinematic game. I didn't once feel they dragged on for too long. Hence why the story felt so well connected and written.

No it's not the best in the series but its no where near a bad game. If you seriously think that then either you don't play any real bad games to compare or just blind.

It's still one of the best action games this gen. I pick this over any of the Gears of War boring crap.

 

[KorrZ]

I too was annoyed by the constant cutscenes, but I can't say it's a bad game. The pure third person shooting was some of the most satisfying I've EVER played. I really enjoy the weight that Euphoria adds to it's movement. I keep seeing people complain about shoot dodging into a wall or object and how disruptive it is....don't fucking jump face first into a wall? What do you expect to happen?

 

[Sentenza]

Regardless of how much anyone does, or does not enjoy the shooting mechanics, Max Payne 3 still takes control away from the player every chance it gets, it's a bad game.

The way MP3 communicates it's story obstructs the very act of playing it, in probably the most frequent, and intrusive ways ever seen in a video game. It's incompetent to the point of ludicrousness.

Oh, this is a complaint I can easily agree with.
Not "If I face-dive against a wall the character becomes too slow to react".

 

[UrbanRats]

As for its peers that do TP navigation better: Gears 3, Vanquish, Dark Souls... basically the majority of third-person games made by any competent developer. Rockstar just can't do TP movement.

Can't speak for Gears 3, as i've only played the first one (which is not amazing) but Vanquish has a completely opposite objective in terms of pacing and how to approach every encounter.
I don't think navigability is to be judged by the quickness in the response alone.
While GTA4 controlled like shit, RDR was already a big step forward and i think Max Payne 3 hit a good deal between realism and controllability, so you'll have a great deal of control over the character, while retaining that sense of weight and "fatigue" they wanted to convey, to mantain a relatively slow and methodical pace to the game.
Again, i don't think something like Chronicles of Riddick is inherently worse than something like Quake, just because it ties its controls to animations to achieve a completely different feel and pacing while playing.

Most games play along with limitations they deliberately impose on you (take stealth games as an example of this) but you don't held that up as a flaw to them, against other games with a different goal.

Of course not liking their approach and goal is totally fine, but that's another story.
I think you can define GTA4 (and RDR to an extent) as janky, but Max Payne 3 plays, i think, deliberately with its limitations, and the slower response in the navigation ties up in the mechanics of "commitment" i've described before.
Again, whether you're gonna like that or not is subjective.
-
That said, i struggle to call Max Payne 3 a bad game, as i've had enough fun with it to install those 30GB twice, but i think it's fair to call it that, considering the utter idiocy they've showed in taking constantly away the control (though it gets a bit less tedious later on) and destroying what good was to be had.

 

[Zaventem]

I hate it when people have to make personal attacks to express their thoughts on a game. I don't care that he hates it but attacking other's opinions to express yours really destroys any notion of credibility.

BUT I WANNA BE THE NEXT TOM CHICK!