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Does Nintendo's lack of western support stem from a lack of awareness?

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I honestly think it stems from western devs just wanting to make the same games over and over and replicate whatever is currently popular.

Having a system that is remotely different from other established consoles already is a huge roadblock to the cycle of replication and sequels.

I think this is also something we need to consider. I mean how many Call of Duty games, or even Assassin's Creed games, have we had in the last few years? It feels like at least every other year. It's a lot harder to cash in on Assassin's Creed 7 or Call of Duty 22 when you've got the new Zelda or Mario, which has been in development for at least three or four years, coming out in the same window.

Ignoring all of that, there is something to be said for Western Devs not taking any chances. Most AAA games are shooters of some kind or Medieval RPGs with insane graphics and shit combat (I'm looking at you Skyrim).
 

VinLAURiA

Banned
I honestly don't think Nintendo can do anything to recapture third-party support, at least from major publishers. Big third-parties won't do anything without a guaranteed return and Nintendo's systems have carried a stigma among both hardcore gamers and developers since Gen5. Neither group wants anything to do with them. Hell, we even have people like EA who are actively trying to spite them (though in EA's case that's due to the Origin deal falling through.)

GameCube showed that even in ideal hardware conditions, third-parties aren't gonna give Nintendo any favorable treatment, let alone special. Just look at the Capcom Five disaster. GameCube wasn't attracting hardcore gamers, pushing away any major third-party games, which in turn made gamers even less inclined to go near the console. It's a vicious cycle. And it even works in the other direction. Why do you think PS2 was as successful as it was? There was nothing special about the system itself, but everyone was still enamored with Sony after the PS1 so a lot of gamers got one by default. Devs saw the large userbase and made games for what was a guaranteed audience, and even more players jumped onboard when they saw all the games coming out for PS2. No effort on Sony's part, nothing really exciting about the actual PS2 as a piece of hardware, it's just how consoles work - devs and players go where the other is and that irreversibly tips the scales very early on in a generation because each effect just strengthens the other. It wasn't until Sony royally screwed up with the PS3 launch that they saw all that momentum vanish and most hardcores migrate to the 360.

And history repeats itself. Devs aren't even bothering to port their stuff to Wii U these days even though it's more than capable of handling all the PS3 and 360 projects that are still being developed, simply because the devs don't consider it worth the effort due to lack of audience. And no audience is gonna show up without games. Look at Rayman Legends. Players say there's no games on Wii U. Rayman Legends is slated for release. Everyone without a Wii U asks for a port to 360/PS3 because "I'm not gonna buy a system for one game" and when Ubisoft inevitably caved, there isn't even that one game anymore to entice consumers, so now with Rayman Legends gone the process will just repeat the next time a third-party Wii U exclusive pops up, because Legends won't be there along with the new game to make it two games to buy the system for. How would it ever make it to three or four - let alone more - with that cycle constantly repeating itself? And with all this mud being slung on the system lately (some of it not even true, but people still believe and propagate it nonetheless), that situation just won't ever improve. Everyone claims Wii U should've been another 720 clone with a 360 controller, but that wouldn't have helped. It didn't help with the GameCube, so why would it help now?

The simple fact is that Nintendo will never not have that stigma and unfavorable treatment, so they should just do what they've always done - first-party stuff - as well as furthering this push for indie devs. XBLA showed us that strong indie support can really help a console and independents are a lot less picky about what consoles they release on than big-namers.
 

Hsieh

Member
Actually, considering what happened... they didn't let their Western relationships fade away... The Western second and third parties Nintendo had relationships with collapsed in on themselves. The new western third parties that replaced them never had a relationship with Nintendo in the first place and don't care to start one anyway. The comment from EA about this upcoming fourth generation is rather telling of Western third-parties. They see the type of gaming they like to make to have started on the PlayStation 1.

They didn't all collapse, Angel Studios and DMA Design who had close relationships with Nintendo in the past made some pretty big game last generation such as GTA4 and Red Dead Redemption but ended up basically ignored the Wii.
 

Jackano

Member
Technically this shouldn't have anything to do with internal resources though. It seems more like a blunder in production scheduling. Nintendo could have launched with double the first-party games if they contracted more software from internal or external developers. That was all poor management. On a related note, I believe that some in-house games suffered an automatic 2-3 month delay with this alleged February R&D restructure when the developers physically moved to the new facility no?

If true this is really poor management, I mean, someone needs to be fired of this whole building thing delays games. The projects should not be stopped for the building change. The team finish its poject, release the game, and then go to the new office. At least the teams who are near to release, so all the 2012-2013 stuff. Worst case scenario, they have 2 or 3 days cut but the new office should be entielry ready to host the teams when they move, so either way I think 2-3 months delay for this is out of question.

And all of this should have been prepared during the last gen , not sheduling to do so just in the beginning of the new one.
Hiring people in Japan just leverage the teams to HD development, overall, this is not growth.
So I return to my point, to the topic: They need to expand outside Japan, dramatically.
I don't see anything indicating they are doing so (even worse, they miss opportunities like Vigil).

And it's not like they havn't the money to do so. They lack games, they lack western games particularly. It's their job to make the user base for western 3rd parties. And it's not like Retro (and Rare before them) are doing bad things. At this point, Retro's mystery game is the most anticipated megaton for their E3...
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Nintendo's developmental philosophies completely differ than the typical Western philosophies, so most of their problems with Western support stem from that.

Not sure if this will hurt the Wii U, but we'll see. The poor sales of the Wii U isn't a result of lack of Western support, though, that's for sure, especially since the Wii U launched with a shit ton of Western games.

That depends on how much of a Japanese base they can secure.

Maybe on handhelds but where is the Japanese WiiU support?

Well, where is Japanese console support period? Most of it right now is niche games on the PS3. The only big announcement so far missing the Wii U is MGSV (RE6 and MG Rising were probably too far along in development).

It'll be interesting to see if the Wii U eventually just wrecks Japan sales-wise or if the PS4 can actually establish a base over there.

Don't the problems in the OP stem, at a root level, from Japan losing general relevance in console space in generation 7?

Nintendo is the most Japanese of Japanese companies in a lot of ways. It makes sense they'd be hurt by it. Especially when combined with their previous issues as spawned by the N64 generation.

Of course, but I think the issue is Nintendo's response to the trend. A lot of Japanese companies have had one of two responses to the situation: 1)Become more western in order to attract western audiences who now dominate consoles (Capcom for instance) and 2)Re-focus their products on the Japan's ultra-niche audiences. Nintendo seems to be either not responding to the situation at all, or actively turning away from it.

If Nintendo is actively turning its face away from this trend, then it's sort of an alternate version of option 2. With the Wii they tried to basically carve out a new market for their games, big enough to compete with the traditional western market and far larger than the niche Japanese market.

Nintendo has always done its own thing because it likes being the trend-setter. Nintendo wants to be the company that the industry follows after when it comes to how people play games. I think that, at the very least, Nintendo should be trying to sell western developers on its vision, but it probably doesn't have a chance in hell of doing that.

I agree that Nintendo should have done that, yeah (keep Rare, etc.). Nintendo's move to boost Japanese developer support, that they did during the GC generation, was a good move -- the N64's Japanese third party support was really, really bad, so the move was needed. They just made a major mistake by allowing their Western relationships to fade away at the same time, and by shifting most of their first and second party stuff to Japan too -- remember that they parted with Rare, Silicon Knights, Factor 5, and Left Field by the end of that generation, and replaced them with nobody nearly as important or productive (Monster Games, Next Level, etc? Yeah, they're not exactly Rare.). They did start up Retro, and they're great, but they're just one team, and take a while to make their games... Nintendo needed to keep up the N64's focus, but also do that Japanese development boosting that they did on the GC. That would have been ideal.

I also think that Nintendo made a mistake by abandoning the N64 early in the West; yes, the PS2 had taken the wind out of its sails after its release, but even so, Nintendo gave up on the N64 in Spring 2001. That left a six month gap between that, and when the GC finally released, with only the GBA and a handful of third party games releasing on N64. Meanwhile, games that should have released here like Sin & Punishment and (yes I know it'd have required work, but I think it could have paid off) Animal Forest/Crossing were left only in Japan... sure N64 sales were fading, but Nintendo's abandonment of the platform was part of why that happened! I know Nintendo of Japan wanted to move on after its lack of success there, but they should have kept it going a little longer here in the US.

Thinking about it, because Nintendo had had that market on the N64 I'd like to think that there was a way to keep it, but MS+Halo is just such a tough obstacle to get past... but yes, that they didn't try at all was definitely not smart. Nintendo of Japan somehow didn't realize how important making more of an effort to hold on to that market was. Yes, they did some things like ED, RE, MGS, etc, but those were really more things aimed at the Sony audience, not the Microsoft one, and it's MS that dealt the biggest blow to the Gamecube in the West, not Sony, I think; I mean, the PS2 was unstoppable, it was going to win by a huge margin anyway. Games like those aimed at the Sony audience were helpful, but weren't going to decide their success in the West. Xbox vs. Gamecube for second, though? That was more of a fight, and Nintendo basically ceded the ground Microsoft then took.

Actually, I think that that's an important point now that I think about it... I've said before in detail about how what happened was that MS took the shooter/"hardcore gamer" Western audience that Nintendo had with the N64 away from them with the GC, and that Nintendo failed to respond, but adding to that, the games Nintendo did have were more aimed at Sony than Nintendo. What did Nintendo have for that Microsoft audience? Metroid Prime 1 and 2, Geist, and that's about it, yes? Those games were fine, but nothing like that was available at launch, and Nintendo failed to get them to succeed like MS did, for all kinds of reasons. But anyway, I do think that that's what happened.


PD did sell very well, but GE0007 had sold more than twice as much... it's a big dropoff.

This reminds me that the N64 really was a good system for shooters back then, probably the best console at the time for shooters with Turok, GoldenEye, and Perfect Dark as well as ports of DOOM, Quake, and Duke Nukem.

Also, I remember it being noted back during the GCN era that most Xbox fans actually owned an N64 before buying an Xbox. As it turned out, instead of taking a bite out of Sony's audience, Microsoft ended up taking a bite out of Nintendo's audience.

Maybe you're right that it's a missed opportunity Nintendo didn't at least try to build on GoldenEye and Perfect Dark during the GCN years. Perfect Dark 2 on the Gamecube in 2002 or 2003 could've been amazing. You still have to ask though: could Nintendo have really been aware of the effects of Microsoft bringing western developers into the console space at that time?
 

Shikamaru Ninja

任天堂 の 忍者
From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.
 
Nintendo can barely get Nintendo games on Nintendo platforms over here. Doesn't really surprise me that they don't communicate with western developers.
 
From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.
They would probably be making FPS's today or some skyrims or some poor mans skyrim. No way NoA would still be making sport games. 2K sports, and EA has it on lock. I dont see Nintendo even coming close to developing a MLB game that rivals the show..the only thing they probably could of made was a NFL game thats better than madden...because any NFL game I believe no doubt will be better than madden but EA has that exclusivity so yea impossible.


I am fiending for a new Crusin USA though goddamn
 

kirby_fox

Banned
As said before I think in here- the N64 was an attempt at getting Western devs to support the system. But it's been hard for Nintendo since NES/SNES because they called the shots then.

I honestly think they need to hire someone that could convince the Western devs to make games. If they don't do this after Wii U- which I expect to see moderate sales with a niche market of games- then they will not last in the environment the industry is heading.

I foresee a future where Nintendo teams up with another company to make their next console. Though I also see the potential of a crash incoming too...
 

Broach

Banned
Man this Thread reminds of these wierd 3rd party N64 games, Xtreme-G, Turok, Cruisn USA...many people forget these games were a pretty good part of the N64.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
They would probably be making FPS's today or some skyrims or some poor mans skyrim. No way NoA would still be making sport games. 2K sports, and EA has it on lock. I dont see Nintendo even coming close to developing a MLB game that rivals the show..the only thing they probably could of made was a NFL game thats better than madden...because any NFL game I believe no doubt will be better than madden but EA has that exclusivity so yea impossible.


I am fiending for a new Crusin USA though goddamn

But there's a chance at least one of those games (the non-sports games) could've been a hit.

As said before I think in here- the N64 was an attempt at getting Western devs to support the system. But it's been hard for Nintendo since NES/SNES because they called the shots then.

I honestly think they need to hire someone that could convince the Western devs to make games. If they don't do this after Wii U- which I expect to see moderate sales with a niche market of games- then they will not last in the environment the industry is heading.

I foresee a future where Nintendo teams up with another company to make their next console. Though I also see the potential of a crash incoming too...

Man. I used to have to do whole blogs highlighting those games.
 
But there's a chance at least one of those games (the non-sports games) could've been a hit.



Man. I used to have to do whole blogs highlighting those games.
There is a chance. Pretty sure we would have loved them whatever it could be. Problem is like people discussed in the ED patent renewed thread, a game like ED wouldnt suffice the game would just bomb. All those games, crusin usa, beetle adventure, eternal darkness they would be failures in these industry standards of today.
 

Game Guru

Member
They didn't all collapse, Angel Studios and DMA Design who had close relationships with Nintendo in the past made some pretty big game last generation such as GTA4 and Red Dead Redemption but ended up basically ignored the Wii.

Nintendo's strained relationship with DMA Design could actually be blamed on by Nintendo. Both Body Harvest and Space Station Silicon Valley were early experiments into what would eventually become Grand Theft Auto III, but Nintendo was picky with Body Harvest so Midway published it. Angel Studios pretty much left after two successful Ken Griffey, Jr. Baseball games and a port of Resident Evil 2, and it was only after they left that they came up with Midnight Club and Red Dead.

However, Rockstar North and Rockstar San Diego were only two developers and only one of those has a bad relationship with Nintendo.
 

Duster

Member
I expect most developers don't want to spend the time/money creating something just for Nintendo systems when they can can spent the same amount of time/money making a game they can release on the PS3, 360 and PC.

I also think one the big issues is that many companies want strong launches with high sales in the first week but on Nintendo systems games tend to have a "longer tail". That becomes a bigger problem if you use the yearly update release model.
 

Jackano

Member
A Nintendo 1st party western studio could very well handle a sport game. Not a simulation one like EA's FIFA or Konami's PES but there are plenty of products that can be made by Nintendo in the sports genre. Just don't focus on the ultra competitive soccer simulation.

Wii Sports has proven great for golf and bowling. 1080° and Wave Race are awesome extreme sports IPs.
Excite Bike, Punch-Out are other sports games. Even Pilotwings.
Things are harder when it comes to basket or baseball, but, with an arcade focus and the Nintendo touch... You know, Calcio Bit too. So much things to do!
 

Dali

Member
From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.

Lol so basically the bulk of all my N64 games in other words. When I think back on it and looking at that list, I didn't realize how few Japanese games I played on the N64. There was Mario 64, Wave Race, Zelda, and Smash and 2 of those were launch games.
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.

So Iwata basically closed down an entire development division that was created to address Nintendo's biggest market?

What exactly did he tell the shareholders at the time?
 

Broach

Banned
why is gaf so knowledgable of a kiddie company like nintendo?

just joking, still wierd thou gotta admit
 

fabprems

Member
Everyone seems to assume that the lack of support of Nintendo hardware from western game companies is due to some bad relationships along with Nintendo's recent hardware itself. I've started to wonder if it's in fact from a lack of any relationships at all. Just look at how many important developers today have had almost zero interaction with Nintendo throughout their history.

When it comes to Nintendo and third party people seem to think back to the transition from SNES to N64 where people jumped ship to Sony as sort of the origin of all the problems. When you look at the developers and publishers involved at the time though -- Square, Capcom, Konami, Namco, etc., they more or less patched things up with Nintendo during the Gamecube era. They don't ignore Nintendo completely like many western companies do.

On the flipside, look at the companies who are completely ignoring Nintendo. A lot of them weren't even making console games in the middle of the 90's. Many of them only stepped into the console space within the last decade and they primarily did so under Microsoft's wing.

From what I can gather from looking at game libraries on Wiki:

Epic has never shipped a game for Nintendo hardwware.

BioWare has never shipped a game for Nintendo hardware (excluding the outsourced Mass Effect 3 port).

Since Body Harvest and Space Station Silicon Valley on the N64, Rockstar has only done a handful of Wii ports.

2K Games has only ever done a handful of Wii ports.

Irrational has never shipped a game for Nintendo hardware.

Criterion has only shipped Burnout, Burnout 2, and Most Wanted on Nintendo consoles.

Bethesda developed a couple NES games, but hasn't shipped anything on Nintendo hardware since.

The Cave is the first game Tim Schaefer has ever released on Nintendo hardware.


To me this looks like an entire world of game developers and publishers that has never had to interact with Nintendo. They weren't in the console games business at any time when Nintendo was dominant in it. So, of course they see no reason to interact with Nintendo now.

That's a great OP !

I just want to say 2 things :

  1. The first Xbox brought a lot of Western devs to the console party, but they brought with them some.. "requirements". In a way, you could say that the PS4 architecture and this Marc Cerny thing is a result of this process that began 2 generations ago. Nintendo is a very japanese-centric company and they are doing their hardwares the way the always did, so there is a big gap between Nintendo and western devs.
    The fact that the entire industry gravity's center is moving from Japan to the US only make things worse.
  2. My feeling is that right now the gaming community has forgot ... the gamers. I mean, no only the hardcore gamers, but every personn who, once in a while, go out and buy some piece of hardware to put under the tv. Normal people.
    Wii did succeed not only because of the motion gaming stuff, but also because it was cheaper. A lot of people are only buying now PS3 and 360 because they are cheap enough now. Devs can comment during months about how 8Go DDR5 RAM made their life better, in the end "real people" won't care about anything but the price.

    There may be less people to the PS4/nextXbox party than there was to the PS360 one. And Nintendo can still make things right with the price of their box and some killer apps, there is potentially some millions of gamers that will be hungry for games on this system for at least the next few years...
 

Game Guru

Member
So Iwata basically closed down an entire development division that was created to address Nintendo's biggest market?

What exactly did he tell the shareholders at the time?

It was probably the shareholders that told him to do it after having sales lower than the Saturn in Japan. Hell, the Genesis didn't do well in Japan either, and we all know Microsoft's trouble in winning over Japan. Perhaps Japan and the West really do have different tastes and only had some crossover due to the resounding success of the SNES, PS1, and PS2 in both territories. This generation marked the first time when every single competitor was relatively popular as opposed to previous generations where the second and third place would only win specific territories but not all of them.
 
One thing I'd like to know is who exactly the developers are. By that, I don't mean companies, but the individual staff working for these companies as programmers, artists, game designers, etc. To what extent are they dominated by young 20-to-30-something's, who grew up in a time where it was fashionable for the "cool" and "mature" people at their school to hate on Nintendo as kiddie (which probably got it's biggest push around the time the SNES Mortal Kombat was released without blood). Is part of the problem that Nintendo simply hasn't been on the radar with these younger people who now form X% of Western development teams? Do they just have such a negative attitude towards Nintendo that no amount of assistance or support from Nintendo would make them willing to develop for their consoles in the first place?
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
It was probably the shareholders that told him to do it after having sales lower than the Saturn in Japan. Hell, the Genesis didn't do well in Japan either, and we all know Microsoft's trouble in winning over Japan. Perhaps Japan and the West really do have different tastes and only had some crossover due to the resounding success of the SNES, PS1, and PS2 in both territories. This generation marked the first time when every single competitor was relatively popular as opposed to previous generations where the second and third place would only win specific territories but not all of them.
So shareholders pressured Iwata into shutting down production in NoA because sales were down in a completely different market?
I'm not sure I follow...
 

mclem

Member
Nintendo has something like 4000 people in the company. They have ~20 software teams/divisions/ first party studios in Japan, and maybe 4 in the US (and outside Retro, none can handle a full game by itself). They have ~20 second party studio in Japan, 3 in North America and one in Europe.

Someone to precise my numbers if needed (I will be glad to that by the way), but you get the point: They better start themselves to invest outside Japan in newer studios before understanding/appealing to western third parties.

A theory: I wonder if Nintendo genuinely doesn't see an issue there? That is, as far as they're concerned, a studio is a studio, and it shouldn't matter *where* it's based.
 
Man this Thread reminds of these wierd 3rd party N64 games, Xtreme-G, Turok, Cruisn USA...many people forget these games were a pretty good part of the N64.


I often have discussions with someone about how hitting little subdivisions could be a really great strategy for Nintendo.

There really isn't anything out there like Star Fox/Rogue Squadron right now
Without Wipeout, there's nothing like the XG series, F-Zero, Podracing, or even San Fran Rush.
There's nothing like Wave Race anywhere
There's no reason The Wii U shouldn't be the best console for RPGs. The tablet is terrific for it. TWETY 2 would work with it and likely be a major title.
Horror games have hit a bit of a "bleh" moment, especially with Resident Evil deviating from its origins so strongly with 5 and 6. There's an opportunity here, and a new tool to create new thrills.

If I was a mid-level company I would want to develop for the Wii U because there would be less competition giving an opportunity for growth. Even if there is a smaller player base, people are wanting to latch onto a game - there never would have been a Rayman uproar if people didn't want something, and because the tech is less, development of the game should cost less too.

People are so eager to latch onto success or failure that they ignore the degrees of successes and failures. So Wii U doesn't have the world's largest install base - it has an install base, and it's one that could easily grow with games.
 

Mashing

Member
It has to be developer relationships. I mean the N64 and Gamecube, which was more powerful than the PS2 and equal with the Xbox, didn't get 3rd party games either.

The excuse back then was: "We can't fit our games on cartridges/Gamecube discs", which was like the worst excuse imaginable.

Then the Wii and Wii U come out and they are technology inferior in every way and their fortunes didn't change. The only games that did well on the massively successful Wii were Nintendo games and a few 3rd party games that happened to align with the user base. Nintendo has shit the bed on all fronts. They never give the developer what they want and instead they pigheadedly design their hardware for their games only. Unless that philosophy changes they'll never get any meaningful 3rd party support.
 

Game Guru

Member
So shareholders pressured Iwata into shutting down production in NoA because sales were down in a completely different market?
I'm not sure I follow...

Probably less "shutting down production in NoA" and more "focus on getting more sales in Japan" and given the limited funds any company has, production in NoA was downsized to increase production in Japan. Even Sony and Microsoft have limited funds to produce first-party games and sometimes even they just have to give up things due to focus. Microsoft, for example, gave trying to appeal to Japan the old college try, but gave up on it to focus on western 3rd-party success.
 
From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.

This is interesting. I didn't realize that NoA was such a powerhouse back then. I'm not saying that Nintendo should adopt the western first gaming mindset that seems to be working for Sony and Microsoft, but I do wonder what whould happen if we had a super aggressive NoA as this post seems to suggest we had in the past.
 
I wouldn't really called it all Iwata fault, NoA games sales were already in decline by the end of the N64 life cycle. Rare peaked with Gmoldeneye (1997) but after that each one of their games started to sell less and less with each new game coming out, Conker sold very poorly too IIRC. Nintendo selling their share in Rare was really only logical when you think about it.
 

Meelow

Banned
From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.

NOA needs to be the old NOA just without the restrictions, I don't know if it's because Reggie isn't doing the best job or because NOJ has more control but Iwata has to fix things, I know he likes Nintendo's philosophy but that's got to change, it isn't 1990 anymore, they don't own the industry like they used to.

I can see Sony is focusing the PS4 on western developers which is good but a lot of Japanese devs seem to be mad that the PS4 isn't based for them, maybe Nintendo can find a middle foot where they can change the Wii U's imagine to focus on the western devs but still let Japanese devs be happy.

And if it is too late for Wii U than the WiiU2/Wii3 should be it. If Nintendo wants to stop being the red headed step child of the big 3 with third party's than they got to change.
 

BD1

Banned
NOA needs to be the old NOA just without the restrictions, I don't know if it's because Reggie isn't doing the best job or because NOJ has more control but Iwata has to fix things, I know he likes Nintendo's philosophy but that's got to change, it isn't 1990 anymore, they don't own the industry like they used to.

The difference is Minoru Arakawa. Howard Lincoln had the cover fire of the Supreme Leader Yamuchi's son-in-law running the division. Lincoln and Arakawa were a John Wayne tag team out in the Wild West.

Reggie doesn't have that advantage. NCL took all the autonomy away and consolidated their power in Japan. Which is something I wish Iwata would loosen up on. Nintendo needs a heavyweight out in the field, cutting deals and green lighting production with western partners.
 

evangd007

Member
Nintendo does talk to Western third parties. Talks are generally not very effective. I think the biggest coup Nintendo ever got was getting Rockstar to make GTA: Chinatown Wars for DS.

The attitudes of developers and publishers in the West has been extremely low since the Gamecube era. With the influx of former PC developers into the console space thanks to Microsoft and the general increase of Western influence on consoles, it has only gotten worse and more apparent recently.


If I was a mid-level company I would want to develop for the Wii U because there would be less competition giving an opportunity for growth. Even if there is a smaller player base, people are wanting to latch onto a game - there never would have been a Rayman uproar if people didn't want something, and because the tech is less, development of the game should cost less too.

I feel that a lot of these mid-level companies either attempt to go for broke like Mercury Steam and Rocksteady did by trying to get their bleeding edge game out there or try to be successful doing mobile/social games.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think it would take for Nintendo to woo one of those formerly big studios that were forced out of consoles and onto mobile/social? What would it take for them to come back to consoles if and only if it could be the Wii U?
 

Meelow

Banned
The difference is Minoru Arakawa. Howard Lincoln had the cover fire of the Supreme Leader Yamuchi's son-in-law running the division. Lincoln and Arakawa were a John Wayne tag team out in the Wild West.

Reggie doesn't have that advantage. NCL took all the autonomy away and consolidated their power in Japan. Which is something I wish Iwata would loosen up on. Nintendo needs a heavyweight out in the field, cutting deals and green lighting production with western partners.

It makes me wonder, Nintendo said they are teaming with more third party's that we'll hear more of in the future, are those all Japanese company's or is Nintendo also talking to Western companies?

If lets say Nintendo manged to talk to Rockstar and team up with them for a game I think that will turn heads, Nintendo shouldn't be letting both EA and Epic say what they are saying and should be getting FB and UE4.

I don't believe western devs have this hatred for Nintendo because that's just stupid to hate a company for no reason, maybe EA and Epic will "change their mind" if Nintendo showed them a check.

We know Miyamoto is talking to devs saying why they should develop for Wii U, and the last time he did that we got Pac Man Vs on GameCube when Nintendo and Namco weren't happy with each other, and there was another game but I don't remember what it was.
 

Dali

Member
I wouldn't really called it all Iwata fault, NoA games sales were already in decline by the end of the N64 life cycle. Rare peaked with Gmoldeneye (1997) but after that each one of their games started to sell less and less with each new game coming out, Conker sold very poorly too IIRC. Nintendo selling their share in Rare was really only logical when you think about it.

Rare was their golden goose for many years. They didn't need to take them out back and shoot them for declining sales. They were obviously a team of very capable people that could produce a polished and excellent final product that had many (more) successes than failures (if you can even call Conker a failure). Granted they lost a lot of talent, but still I think if Nintendo brought them more into the fold instead of putting them down the investment would still be paying dividends to this day.
 

AniHawk

Member
I wouldn't really called it all Iwata fault, NoA games sales were already in decline by the end of the N64 life cycle. Rare peaked with Gmoldeneye (1997) but after that each one of their games started to sell less and less with each new game coming out, Conker sold very poorly too IIRC. Nintendo selling their share in Rare was really only logical when you think about it.

that, and at the time the biggest franchises were final fantasy, metal gear solid, tekken, resident evil, and dragon quest. even in the ps2 generation, it was all those plus devil may cry, soul calibur, kingdom hearts, etc. pc games were their own things, with some ports here and there. nothing like what happened this gen with a huge shift to western gaming (and pc ports).

western console games were generally pretty messy during the n64 and gc days. the only thing nintendo might have going for them now is if a shift went back to japanese games, they'd probably have the upper-hand when it comes to striking deals with developers (at least versus microsoft- sony would be more even footing).
 

TCKaos

Member
I don't think the Wii U can offer anything that any of those devs want or need. What could they possibly gain from moving a title to the Wii U?

It's not as powerful as the PS4 or Durango, it lacks the prospective audience of the PS4 and Durango, and you have to shoehorn in some gimmick that uses the pad. Why spend all of the extra money on something that is almost certainly going to get you fewer sales?
 

wsippel

Banned
If Nintendo cared about western support they would have made a console ps4/720 spec wise.
Wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever, as evident by the lack of Tomb Raider, Bioshock Infinite, Destiny, Battlefield 4 and so on. All those games could be on Wii U if publishers actually gave a fuck. They don't. Technology and specs have nothing to do with that. Once you realize that, it becomes obvious why Nintendo doesn't waste money on more powerful hardware.
 
Wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever, as evident by the lack of Tomb Raider, Bioshock Infinite, Battlefield 4 and so on. All those games could be on Wii U, and the Wii U version would be the definitive console version if publishers actually gave a fuck. They don't. Technology and specs have nothing to do with that. Once you realize that, it becomes obvious why Nintendo doesn't waste money on more powerful hardware.

Isn't the reason for them not caring Nintendo's fault? At least partially.
 

Somnid

Member
Wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever, as evident by the lack of Tomb Raider, Bioshock Infinite, Battlefield 4 and so on. Once you realize that, it becomes obvious why Nintendo doesn't waste money on more powerful hardware.

Tomb Raider and Bioshock were both in development hell and took way too long, the prospects that either are profitable in the end are slim. In hindsight it's pretty clear why they didn't port, no publisher was going to piss away more money on extra development distractions. I'm sure more devs would be interested if the hardware was more powerful, but that's also not what makes a good system or games, Nintendo's talents lie beyond it and certainly the spec arms race is not how you make money.
 

kuroshiki

Member
Wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever, as evident by the lack of Tomb Raider, Bioshock Infinite, Destiny, Battlefield 4 and so on. All those games could be on Wii U if publishers actually gave a fuck. They don't. Technology and specs have nothing to do with that. Once you realize that, it becomes obvious why Nintendo doesn't waste money on more powerful hardware.

.... why making more powerful console is considered a 'waste'? I mean if WiiU showed a clear advantage of power compare to PS360, then we might actually see some interesting result.

WiiU simply lacks power, and while it may not be the only reason why wiiU is suffering, it does play a significant role.
 

Scum

Junior Member
...
I feel that a lot of these mid-level companies either attempt to go for broke like Mercury Steam and Rocksteady did by trying to get their bleeding edge game out there or try to be successful doing mobile/social games.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think it would take for Nintendo to woo one of those formerly big studios that were forced out of consoles and onto mobile/social? What would it take for them to come back to consoles if and only if it could be the Wii U?

If it'll get Acclaim back in one piece to remake Turok 1, Turok 2, Forsaken and Shadowman then I'm game. :D

From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.

Iwata needs to allow this to come back. NoE and NoA with dev teams that can put out their own titles would help out a damn lot.

that, and at the time the biggest franchises were final fantasy, metal gear solid, tekken, resident evil, and dragon quest. even in the ps2 generation, it was all those plus devil may cry, soul calibur, kingdom hearts, etc. pc games were their own things, with some ports here and there. nothing like what happened this gen with a huge shift to western gaming (and pc ports).

western console games were generally pretty messy during the n64 and gc days. the only thing nintendo might have going for them now is if a shift went back to japanese games, they'd probably have the upper-hand when it comes to striking deals with developers (at least versus microsoft- sony would be more even footing).

I'll take Skies of Arcadia for a start.
 

wsippel

Banned
.... why making more powerful console is considered a 'waste'? I mean if WiiU showed a clear advantage of power compare to PS360, then we might actually see some interesting result.

WiiU simply lacks power, and while it may not be the only reason why wiiU is suffering, it does play a significant role.
I disagree. More powerful hardware is useless without games to actually demonstrate that superiority, and those wouldn't exist either way. So all that hardware does is cost money. And someone has to pay for that untapped performance. If the customer has to pay, the system would sell even worse, and if Nintendo pays, their losses would be even higher. So yes: It would be a waste of money.
 

mclem

Member
I don't think the Wii U can offer anything that any of those devs want or need. What could they possibly gain from moving a title to the Wii U?

Getting philosophical for the moment - and not in any way trying to suggest that this is an advantage of the Wii U, but it's something that springs to mind:

Many devs need restraint. They need limitations. They absolutely don't want it, but looking at the financial side of the industry?

My simple theory is that Nintendo produced a system on which they felt it was reasonable to make a *profit*, with a power level that it was affordable to tap (drawing on the experience people had already had with making games to that level of fidelity in this gen that's ending currently). That plan does, of course, require an audience to buy into the system, and Nintendo have absolutely failed at that goal as yet; there's still time, but they need to do something.

At the opposite end of the scale, though, I'm not convinced it's viable to tap into the PS4's featureset and still, well, make money, at least for the average dev (my standpoint in this sort of thing is wondering where Atlus would fit into the grand scheme of things for the system; strong dedicated fanbase, but also a company that can't afford massive production values. I think it's not insignificant that Atlus's presence on 360 and PS3 is so limited.
 

Snakeyes

Member
I honestly don't think Nintendo can do anything to recapture third-party support, at least from major publishers. Big third-parties won't do anything without a guaranteed return and Nintendo's systems have carried a stigma among both hardcore gamers and developers since Gen5.

[...]

GameCube showed that even in ideal hardware conditions, third-parties aren't gonna give Nintendo any favorable treatment, let alone special.

Oh boy, not this again... Why would developers make an effort to support Nintendo when the latter haven't really catered to the former's wishes since the SNES?

- They stuck with expensive and limited cartridges (and royalty fees) in the N64 days when everyone was clamoring for cheaper and higher capacity CD-ROMs.

- They opted for another limited media format with the GC's mini DVDs. The functionality of their controller was also limited compared to the competition due to the lack of a second shoulder bumper, clickable sticks and a proper right analog.

- Wii was a full hardware generation behind, ditto for the Wii U.

Couple this with Nintendo's draconian policies under Yamauchi, and you'll see why some third parties are reluctant to give them the benefit of doubt. Could those relationships be repaired? Sure, but they need to show a clear commitment to build more well-rounded platforms from now on, and stick with it for a generation or two.
 
From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.

...wow, Iwata and the rest of the top NCL management really, really need to go.

It's impossible to say whether or not whoever replaced them would be enough of an improvement, but it's indefensible that they've grown more Japan-centric even as the importance of Western development in the broader market has only increased.
 

Anth0ny

Member
I feel like since Iwata took over, they've been giving the finger to Western devs and focusing entirely on Japan.

Yet, they didn't even have great Japanese third party support for Wii, let alone Wii U...

edit: Ninja's post pretty much lol
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
NOA needs to be the old NOA just without the restrictions, I don't know if it's because Reggie isn't doing the best job or because NOJ has more control but Iwata has to fix things, I know he likes Nintendo's philosophy but that's got to change, it isn't 1990 anymore, they don't own the industry like they used to.

I can see Sony is focusing the PS4 on western developers which is good but a lot of Japanese devs seem to be mad that the PS4 isn't based for them, maybe Nintendo can find a middle foot where they can change the Wii U's imagine to focus on the western devs but still let Japanese devs be happy.

And if it is too late for Wii U than the WiiU2/Wii3 should be it. If Nintendo wants to stop being the red headed step child of the big 3 with third party's than they got to change.

Where are you hearing that?
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
that, and at the time the biggest franchises were final fantasy, metal gear solid, tekken, resident evil, and dragon quest. even in the ps2 generation, it was all those plus devil may cry, soul calibur, kingdom hearts, etc. pc games were their own things, with some ports here and there. nothing like what happened this gen with a huge shift to western gaming (and pc ports).

western console games were generally pretty messy during the n64 and gc days. the only thing nintendo might have going for them now is if a shift went back to japanese games, they'd probably have the upper-hand when it comes to striking deals with developers (at least versus microsoft- sony would be more even footing).

I was thinking this too. Having a lot of western support wasn't really that important 10+ years ago. Centralizing around Japan probably wasn't a stupid thing to do back then because console gaming was still mostly Japan's game. Western developers were starting to bring in better and better content on Xbox, but no one at the time predicted they'd take over console gaming.

Now however would maybe be a good time to roll those policies back since so much of their revenue comes from outside Japan now. At the very least it would lead to more games that have appeal to western audiences. You'd probably end up with something resembling what Sony's first party studios did this generation -- picking up SCEJ's slack. Nintendo could end up getting a whole class of Uncharteds, Killzones, etc. I don't know how much hardware that would sell though.

Maybe, just maybe you'd get more aggressive negotiations with western publishers or even agreements like what Nintendo has with Platinum.

I don't think the Wii U can offer anything that any of those devs want or need. What could they possibly gain from moving a title to the Wii U?

It's not as powerful as the PS4 or Durango, it lacks the prospective audience of the PS4 and Durango, and you have to shoehorn in some gimmick that uses the pad. Why spend all of the extra money on something that is almost certainly going to get you fewer sales?

I think this is a good point too. In the end, Nintendo's environment right now is just not a good fit for the kinds of games most big western developers are making. If NoA was able to do the above then maybe you'd see developers convinced to bring over more of the current gen stuff to Wii U, but going forward, the hardware environment is still different.

Basically, you'd have to get a more autonomous super-NoA AND Wii-level hardware sales to even have a chance in this area.

Hopefully some indie developer strikes it big on Wii U...
 
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