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Yves Guillemot: ZombiU Wasn't Profitable, not even close, no sequel planned

Well, maybe they should go ahead and port it to 360/PS3. Not only would they get a chance to recoup a bit of their losses, but it'll help put the numbers in perspective for their future support. This might be an Epic Mickey 2 / De Blob 2 / No More Heroes type of situation.
 
Have we gotten any more info on Lego City sales recently?
Over 100K iirc.
Why? All four of those launched later on Wii U.
I'm not sure why people always bring this up and put the culpability on third parties who didn't decide the console release date.

And even then, these titles launched "late" on the PS3; Madden, COD, other core games compared to on the last gen systems (XBX, PS2, GCN).

EA used the USP. It's just not a good USP.

The Wii U simply lacks a compelling incentive for transition or upgrade. Because it isn't enough of an upgrade and no one cares about the tablet controller.
The point of the whole article was to paint a negative picture.
You make it sound like it would be an exceedingly difficult task to write an article about third party sales on the Wii U that doesn't paint a positive outlook. As if one needs to spin numbers and facts. They don't.
 
The thing is - even if they pull another gamecube - wich i seriously doubt - they have one unique advantage: they can sustain a healthy business just by themselfes.

No, they won't. Nintendo doesn't have enough internal studios and second-parties to fill an entire year without big roles in the schedule. Plus the fact they need to support the 3DS at the same time. This will seriously affect their sales. Nobody will buy a system that only brings 1 or 2 games in a 2 monthes time lapse.

I'm surprised there's people who seriously believes this.
 
Ok and how does this magically solve their horrid relationships with third parties? You really think third parties are going to just line up to support the system?

That's what I don't get about people that post that. It's pretty obvious what the response would be.

"Why should we support a console that is no better technologically than the PS4/One and has a small install base, especially in comparison to PS4/One?"

Plus, they would "have to compete with Nintendo's software" and yadda yadda.

Nintendo's problems and issues with third parties are a lot more complicated than simply "not enough power". Regardless of their current woes, Nintendo does need a differentiator from its competitors, and I think the GamePad is as great as any other. They just need better software and advertising to communicate the value of the GamePad, which I think they have failed to do well so far.
 
No, they won't. Nintendo doesn't have enough internal studios and second-parties to fill an entire year without big roles in the schedule. Plus the fact they need to support the 3DS at the same time. This will seriously affect their sales. Nobody will buy a system that only brings 1 or 2 games in a 2 monthes time lapse.

I'm surprised there's people who seriously believes this.

Ok, i repeat it. Yes they will. It may not be with a full schedule but again , i am used to this since 1995. Yes i admit, i buy a Nintendo console for Nintendo games. Additionaly another console for the other stuff. But a Nintendo console is a given because of the unique franchises. And at least 20-30 million people will always do just that. It may not be enough to win every generation but who cares. They will survive and support us with quirky, fun and polished games.

*insert image about revenue of the big three over the last 20years.*
 

royalan

Member
LOL - ouch. I have never before seen devs dismiss a Nintendo console so openly. This gen they don't even seem willing to entertain the idea of PR spin when it comes to development on a Nintendo console. If this comment doesn't paint a clear picture of just how low dev relationships with Nintendo have sunk, then nothing will. This is the result of entire gens of not prioritizing them.

The thing that gets me is that these comments are coming from the BIG GUYS. EA, Epic, now Ubisoft. If they're speaking out against Wii U like this, I don't want to imagine what the general sentiment for the console must be amongst devs.

Nintendo does need a differentiator from its competitors, and I think the GamePad is as great as any other.

It's not, though. You measure these things by success. The gamepad isn't a great differentiator because it's not selling. It's just not speaking to anybody. The wiimote spoke to people. The gamepad is a failure.
 

benjammin

Member
Do you ever play classic games? I honestly have a hard time understanding people who quit a console due to lack of connectivity or whatever, like I understand playing on it less but it just seems a bit extreme to quit playing on consoles because of this even if there's a game you really want to play on it, considering that's how we played games for many years before seventh gen.

But that's the direction that the industry is going in now. That's like saying old 16 bit games were a lot of fun, why not make all games 16 bit? When Nintendo's competitors have shifted to an online focus, then Nintendo's lack of connectivity becomes a legitimate concern. NSMB, 3d World and pikmin 3 look like fun, but it's ridiculous to refuse to add any form of online mp. It's not a total deal breaker, it's just a huge missed opportunity.
 

hoos30

Member
william%20shatner%20james%20t%20kirk%20star%20trek%20the%20wrath%20of%20khan%201280x800%20wallpaper_www.wallpapermay.com_88.jpg


WiiU is dead already.

The only question is how many years and tens of millions of dollars will Nintendo waste before they introduce their next console.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Ok and how does this magically solve their horrid relationships with third parties? You really think third parties are going to just line up to support the system?

It would be another failure. Nintendo needs to stick with U and turn things around with great games and competitive pricing.

What might happen with U if Nintendo started charging $40 for digital releases of new games and $50 for physical? Couple that with a new $250 price and a marketing blitz to coincide with the big holiday releases. They shouldn't be throwing in the towel, they should be taking the gloves off!

Releasing a machine powerful enough for easy porting of new software built with next gen engines will work wonders in getting support from third parties. They are going to want to spread development costs across as many platforms as possible as cheaply as possible. The Wii U does cannot serve this purpose.
 

pvpness

Member
I'd like to see actual quotes, but I knew it couldn't have been great for ZombiU. It's honest-to-god survival horror, a genre that has never been exceptionally popular with video game demos. Couple that with putting it on Nintendo hardware exclusively and its absolute clusterfuck of a dev timeline and its not shocking that it didn't make any money.

A sequel would have been nice, but Ubi couldn't help but fuck this one up. Profitability was never going to be easy for this game, but Ubi's total mismanagement made it impossible. That's a pity because there just aren't a lot of survival horror games out there (and for good reason).
 
It's not, though. You measure these things by success. The gamepad isn't a great differentiator because it's not selling. It's just not speaking to anybody. The wiimote spoke to people. The gamepad is a failure.

Why don't you post the rest of that quote, bud.

Regardless of their current woes, Nintendo does need a differentiator from its competitors, and I think the GamePad is as great as any other. They just need better software and advertising to communicate the value of the GamePad, which I think they have failed to do well so far.

Wii had Wii Sports, and was just generally easier to advertise and communicate its value. Wii U needs something to communicate the value of the GamePad on that level, which is difficult given the nature of the GamePad. They need a better way of getting the GamePad into people's hands or showing off its advantages in media.

And besides that, what do you think Nintendo should do? Release a console exactly the same as PS4/One? Why would developers make games for it?

Or just "fire Iwata, and then magic"?
 

Replicant

Member
You hear that? That's the sound of Ubi dropping their 3rd party support for Wii U in the near future.

We're talking about Ubi here, King of Ports. If they can't even see silver lining in this hardware, I doubt other 3rd party will manage to do so.
 
Ok, i repeat it. Yes they will. It may not be with a full schedule but again , i am used to this since 1995. Yes i admit, i buy a Nintendo console for Nintendo games. Additionaly another console for the other stuff. But a Nintendo console is a given because of the unique franchises. And at least 20-30 million people will always do just that. It may not be enough to win every generation but who cares. They will survive and support us with quirky, fun and polished games.

*insert image about revenue of the big three over the last 20years.*

You do exactly what's harming them and what needs to be changed the most. No system can survive without third-party support, no one ever did. If you believe what you're doing is helping them, you're delusional.

Reading posts like this just confirm my idea that Nintendo needs to change their direction and target a new userbase because their current userbase are only there to play Nintendo games, the big IP's, and anything else. This is a dangerous cycle of diminishing returns and if they not release new experiences or introducing new people to the franchises you have and for third-party games on your system, then your numbers can only go down.
 

Huff

Banned
Why don't you post the rest of that quote, bud.

Wii had Wii Sports, and was just generally easier to advertise and communicate its value. Wii U needs something to communicate the value of the GamePad on that level, which is difficult given the nature of the GamePad. They need a better way of getting the GamePad into people's hands or showing off its advantages in media.

And besides that, what do you think Nintendo should do? Release a console exactly the same as PS4/One? Why would developers make games for it?

Or just "fire Iwata, and then magic"?

The gamepad seems more of a lazy attempt to grab the ipad user than nintendo having ideas to innovate using it.
 

Darmik

Member
I'm actually a bit confused to what they were expected really. It seems to have sold about 500k. I think for a rather niche genre on a console without a huge install base seems decent. This game would unlikely be a big seller on the other two consoles as well would it? I can't really imagine ZombiU as a big franchise. It doesn't seem to have a huge budget either. It's a shame because I wish there wasn't such a reliance on every game being a million plus seller but this is the positition third party publishers are in I guess.

For the people port begging. It wouldn't work. The game is designed around the GamePad. It's not just having a second screen, a part of the tension is actively managing what you have in your backpack and what you have on hand, which is divided among 6 hotkeys on the touch screen. Anything you don't have on hand can be risky to grab out of your backpack which removes quickly using several medpacks in the middle of a fight. It's cumbersome to go through your backpack just as it should be and it can be incredibly tense. Removing this for an overlay UI just wouldn't be the same.

Same with changing the weapons on hand to the D-Pad. It removes glancing at your Gamepad for that split second to change weapons which can make a big difference.

Using smartglass would be awkward switching between a controller and tablet and they can hardly force this on users. That leaves only the Vita which is the only one that could work but again it would be an awkward sell.
 

Averon

Member
You hear that? That's the sound of Ubi dropping their 3rd party support for Wii U in the near future.

We're talking about Ubi here, King of Ports. If they can't even see silver lining in this hardware, I doubt other 3rd party will manage to do so.

Yup. After Ubi releases the rest of their 2013 Wii U lineup, they are done with this console and Nintendo for the foreseeable future, I think. Hell, I would not be surprised if Ubi even stop porting 360/PS3 games they have in store for 2014 for the Wii U.

I don't want to hear whining about Ubi's lack support for the Wii U next year going forward. They tried. They championed the Wii U more than any other third party in the media, they gave it an exclusive game (Zombi U), and if sales of the Wii U hadn't been dog shit, they would've gotten two (Rayman Legends). They got burned for their trouble, so they more than earned their right to walk away.
 

royalan

Member
Why don't you post the rest of that quote, bud.



Wii had Wii Sports, and was just generally easier to advertise and communicate its value. Wii U needs something to communicate the value of the GamePad on that level, which is difficult given the nature of the GamePad. They need a better way of getting the GamePad into people's hands or showing off its advantages in media.

And besides that, what do you think Nintendo should do? Release a console exactly the same as PS4/One? Why would developers make games for it?

Or just "fire Iwata, and then magic"?

Honestly, I just don't think the Gamepad will ever BE the kind of value-add the wiimote was. It's just not as innovative and fresh to the market. Hence, why I ignored the rest of your quote. Nintendo will never create a "WiiSports for the GamePad" type game because, frankly, I don't think such a game exists. WiiSports was only a good game in as much as it functioned as a showcase for the features of the wiimote, which were very much revolutionary at the time. The gamepad, in comparison, is old hat...at least as far as the general consumer is concerned. People know what a touch screen is. Companies will never again "Wow!" an audience with a touch screen.

As for what I think Nintendo should do? Well, besides fire Iwata (you know me so well...), for once I wish Nintendo would just let their GAMES be the differentiator. Nintendo could theoretically put out a console that was a carbon-fucking-copy of the X1 or PS4 (not that they would do such a thing, or that I'm advocating that, but let's just say) and they would STILL have something MS and Sony don't have and could never have: their vast suite of legacy IPs with "everyone" appeal and a loyal audience. They would still have their NAME, and despite all the damage Iwata seems intent on doing to it, the name "Nintendo" still means something. In my opinion, that's all the differentiation they need.

So, for once, I would love it if Nintendo just cut the gimmick BS, actually let their software do the talking, and build a console that inspires developers (not just themselves) and entices them to actually make games for it.
 
The gamepad seems more of a lazy attempt to grab the ipad user than nintendo having ideas to innovate using it.

They've clearly had this approach to gameplay in mind ever since the GCN-GBA Link Cables.

The multiplayer modes in Nintendo Land were some of the best multiplayer experiences I've had in the last year, due in no small part to the GamePad. That should have only been the start, but they haven't followed up on the promise of the GamePad since then.

(Although Off-Play is great as well.)
 

Ganondorfo

Junior Member
ZombieU wouldnt even be profitable on the PS3 and XBOX360. Who cares Ubisoft, stop making boring horror fps games...
 
Gamepad amazes people if you take it to their home, set it up, and show them what it can do. I've "sold" three Wii U consoles doing this.

Of course, Nintendo can't take a console to everyone's home, so they're basically screwed LOL
 

Darmik

Member
For comparison, what did Condemned on the Xbox 360 sell during launch? Were Sega happy with those sales? I'm guessing this is probably the closest comparison we can get.
 

NomarTyme

Member
Nintendo should just kill off the Wii U, and devote their resources to 3DS full time. Then, relaunch with a new console a few years from now, and this time, put forth a sincere effort.

At least, that's what I want.

I like for them to just drop the price and pray.
 
Honestly, I just don't think the Gamepad will ever BE the kind of value-add the wiimote was. It's just not as innovative and fresh to the market. Hence, why I ignored the rest of your quote. Nintendo will never create a "WiiSports for the GamePad" type game because, frankly, I don't think such a game exists. WiiSports was only a good game in as much as it functioned as a showcase for the features of the wiimote, which were very much revolutionary at the time. The gamepad, in comparison, is old hat...at least as far as the general consumer is concerned. People know what a touch screen is. Companies will never again "Wow!" an audience with a touch screen.

Depends on your measure of success, and Nintendo's alternatives. I don't think the GamePad could ever have matched the Wii Remote in success, but I don't think PS4 or One are going to either. And I'm not convinced a more powerful Wii U sans GamePad would solve all of its current problems; it could just as likely have done worse.

I do think there is potential for a killer app, though. I still remember my sister playing Nintendo Land and saying, "Wow, it's weird, but this is actually more fun than the Wii Remote". Especially when you factor in the technical limitations of the Wii Remote, the GamePad might very well have more potential for innovative gameplay. But like my sister, most people are going to assume it's less compelling than the Wii Remote until they try it with the right software.

As for what I think Nintendo should do? Well, besides fire Iwata (you know me so well...), for once I wish Nintendo would just let their GAMES be the differentiator. Nintendo could theoretically put out a console that was a carbon-fucking-copy of the X1 or PS4 (not that they would do such a thing, or that I'm advocating that, but let's just say) and they would STILL have something MS and Sony don't have and could never have: their vast suite of legacy IPs with "everyone" appeal and a loyal audience. They would still have their NAME, and despite all the damage Iwata seems intent on doing to it, the name "Nintendo" still means something. In my opinion, that's all the differentiation they need.

So, for once, I would love it if Nintendo just cut the gimmick BS, actually let their software do the talking, and build a console that inspires developers (not just themselves) and entices them to actually make games for it.

Well, they have their name now, so that's a non-issue. This still reads to me as, "More power, and then magic!"

"Inspiration" comes cheap and doesn't pay the bills, hun. At least with the GamePad, Nintendo stands a chance of differentiating itself with unique software that can't be replicated on other hardware. Otherwise, consumers will be picking up a PS4/One "instead" of a Wii U, rather than "in addition to". (Tathanen had an excellent thread that explained all this better than I could.)
 

TheContact

Member
My copy is still unopened, not that I don't like it but just haven't had the time. Need to beat Super Mario U first
 
Yea. It amazes me how people are presented with actual facts, and instead of discussing around it, they just fall back on the same tired arguments over and over.

People still focusing on the names of the games, their budgets, their reviews, their boxarts. These are not the larger issue. ZombiU didn't fail to hit expectations due to any of this. As other people pointed out, many people who purchased the game, really like the game. The larger issue is that Nintendo put out a console that has sold roughly 1.1MM units NA in 9 months and has one Mario game with a 70% attach rate... and the next highest game, regardless of publisher, is 150k.

Nearly all of those users only want Mario. People bought the Wii because they wanted the Wii. They bought a ton of games with it because they were sold on the concept of what it did for them. The features excited them. They wanted to experience a lot of what it had to offer, at least for awhile. Publishers saw launch attach rates of 30%. You want that. You target that. You'll take 10% and 10% is good too... when the system itself has a ton of hardware momentum. Wii U doesn't. So you want 30%. Whose even getting 10% now? These are just rough targets and obviously not everyone builds their financing to these models, but attach rate is the best number to really look at here.

Nintendo needs to sell people on the Wii U tablet aggressively and get people to understand why the console itself is something they need. Right now, people bought the Wii U for Mario. You're fighting for scraps with around 300k users who are willing to buy more than just Mario. I really want them to succeed... I want everyone to, given I want the industry to grow, and someone has to target females and bring younger demo into the industry at higher price points than Apple and Android do, but the reason I probably spend more post-energy on Nintendo related things is because they really are in a bad spot, and they have to start repositinoing and spending and I'd love to see that happen asap.

This needs to be requoted again. Such a good post from John Harker.

Certain segments of NeoGAF have got to stop blaming 3rd parties for Nintendo's current predicament, Nintendo only have themselves to blame for this kerfuffle lol.
 
I really hope this wasn't profitable like Tomb Raider wasn't "profitable", in the sense that the budget was out of control for what was obviously and comfortably a non-AAA title.

I mean, personally everyone I know that has a WiiU also bought ZombiUI. It's the 3rd biggest Miiverse community out there - the only Nintendoland (a pack in) and NSMBU (a Mario) are bigger
 

Azull

Member
I think Assassins creed 4 and watch dogs is probably the last straw for Ubi if those games bomb on the WiiU as well. Man if Ubi pulls out support, it's officially over.
 

royalan

Member
Depends on your measure of success, and Nintendo's alternatives. I don't think the GamePad could ever have matched the Wii Remote in success, but I don't think PS4 or One are going to either. And I'm not convinced a more powerful Wii U sans GamePad would solve all of its current problems; it could just as likely have done worse.

You arguing hypthetical scenerios. Sure, we don't know if the Wii U without the gamepad would have sold better. But one thing we do know is that it's selling like crap with it. Unprecedented crap.

I do think there is potential for a killer app, though. I still remember my sister playing Nintendo Land and saying, "Wow, it's weird, but this is actually more fun than the Wii Remote". Especially when you factor in the technical limitations of the Wii Remote, the GamePad might very well have more potential for innovative gameplay. But like my sister, most people are going to assume it's less compelling than the Wii Remote until they try it with the right software.

We'll see who's right in due time. Personally, I just don't ever see the Wii U getting a game that makes the gamepad out into this on-fire, must-have device. I just don't see it. We should have seen it by now.



Well, they have their name now, so that's a non-issue. This still reads to me as, "More power, and then magic!"

What's wrong with more power? I'm not arguing that that alone is the solution, but you make it sound like the very idea of a Nintendo console ever being "powerful" would be a bad thing. Power doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Besides, this is simplistic look at the problems facing the Wii U. Sure, is power an issue? You bet it is and rightfully so. But that's only part of it. The real issue is that the Wii U, in general, as a console, we seemingly not built with developers in mind. Nor was it built with competitors in mind. Nor does it seem like Nintendo really prioritizes 3rd parties being successful and making profits in the way it positions the Wii U and advertises its selling points.

"Inspiration" comes cheap and doesn't pay the bills, hun. At least with the GamePad, Nintendo stands a chance of differentiating itself with unique software that can't be replicated on other hardware. Otherwise, consumers will be picking up a PS4/One "instead" of a Wii U, rather than "in addition to". (Tathanen had an excellent thread that explained all this better than I could.)

But then this begs the question: does any of this shit matter if the Wii U isn't selling, period? Is it worth counting the gamepad as the differentiator if it's a complete failure in that function?
 

Pyronite

Member
I'm about to read through the 18 pages after the first, but I really, really hope to see the amount of complete anger that was generated by Ubisoft going multiplat with Rayman Legends rather than leading with the Wii U.

It wasn't deserved – it was business and the Wii U would have killed Legends – but I'm hoping for some consistency from those posters.
 

Frodo

Member
I'm about to read through the 18 pages after the first, but I really, really hope to see the amount of complete anger that was generated by Ubisoft going multiplat with Rayman Legends rather than leading with the Wii U.

It wasn't deserved – it was business and the Wii U would have killed Legends – but I'm hoping for some consistency from those posters.

To be really honest the rage was about delaying a game that was already done, not going multiplatform.
 

MarkusRJR

Member
Yea. It amazes me how people are presented with actual facts, and instead of discussing around it, they just fall back on the same tired arguments over and over.

People still focusing on the names of the games, their budgets, their reviews, their boxarts. These are not the larger issue. ZombiU didn't fail to hit expectations due to any of this. As other people pointed out, many people who purchased the game, really like the game. The larger issue is that Nintendo put out a console that has sold roughly 1.1MM units NA in 9 months and has one Mario game with a 70% attach rate... and the next highest game, regardless of publisher, is 150k.

Nearly all of those users only want Mario. People bought the Wii because they wanted the Wii. They bought a ton of games with it because they were sold on the concept of what it did for them. The features excited them. They wanted to experience a lot of what it had to offer, at least for awhile. Publishers saw launch attach rates of 30%. You want that. You target that. You'll take 10% and 10% is good too... when the system itself has a ton of hardware momentum. Wii U doesn't. So you want 30%. Whose even getting 10% now? These are just rough targets and obviously not everyone builds their financing to these models, but attach rate is the best number to really look at here.

Nintendo needs to sell people on the Wii U tablet aggressively and get people to understand why the console itself is something they need. Right now, people bought the Wii U for Mario. You're fighting for scraps with around 300k users who are willing to buy more than just Mario. I really want them to succeed... I want everyone to, given I want the industry to grow, and someone has to target females and bring younger demo into the industry at higher price points than Apple and Android do, but the reason I probably spend more post-energy on Nintendo related things is because they really are in a bad spot, and they have to start repositinoing and spending and I'd love to see that happen asap.
Dayum. Incredible post. :eek:

John Harker and Creamsugar are some of the reasons I never leave GAF in regards to Nintendo sales figures. The fact tons of people are using hilariously incorrect sources (banned sources on GAF iirc) and putting it out there as if they're correct is really depressing.

To stay on topic, Nintendo is kind of boned. They can't really do much now that their console has flopped unless they do a crazy turn around similar to the 3DS or PS3, which were in a much better situations than the Wii U is now. I just don't think Nintendo has it in them. At best I'd say we're looking at a N64 situation (that's trying to be really hopeful) and at worst we're looking at a situation even worse than the Gamecube.
 

Pyronite

Member
To be really honest the rage was about delaying a game that was already done, not going multiplatform.

I understand that, and it's a fair point, but you can always iron out bugs and increase content (which is what they did – I was working for Ubi at the time and can verify that – our studio was testing new content past the delay date), and ports do not happen in a month or two.

It had to be done this way. Legends fizzling out on Wii U 7 months earlier, so possibly 150k people could buy it, is just not good business strategy.
 
I'm about to read through the 18 pages after the first, but I really, really hope to see the amount of complete anger that was generated by Ubisoft going multiplat with Rayman Legends rather than leading with the Wii U.

It wasn't deserved – it was business and the Wii U would have killed Legends – but I'm hoping for some consistency from those posters.

I can't wait to see Rayman sell millions on 360 & PS3 this fall then.
 

Pyronite

Member
I can't wait to see Rayman sell millions on 360 & PS3 this fall then.

But that's not the point – knowing what you do about ZombiU sales, and third-party Wii U game sales in general, which will perform better: an exclusive game on Wii U, or a multiplatform game on PS3, Xbox 360, PC, and Wii U?

It's not only good business, it really is good for developers. Developers want their games to be played. Not to die as a pariah for a system with little support.

I understand the angst over Ubi going back on their promise, but they're also in the business of not releasing talented people due to their poor decisions. Montpellier will be better off with this.
 

Willy Wanka

my god this avatar owns
Pretty unfortunate since I basically bought my Wii U at launch so I could play the first game (and Pikmin 3). Hopefully hardware sales pick up in the future and Ubisoft have a rethink because I'd like another Zombi U.
 
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