Only if they designed two different Silicons from the start and kept the second one secret to devs. The only thing I can imagine is a slight up-(or down)clock and maaaaybe the enabling of additional CUs which were disabled so far. But the latter is highly unlikely.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
X1 DDR3 RAM vs PS4 GDDR5 RAM: Both Are Sufficient for Realistic Lighting(Geomerics)
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
Only if they designed two different Silicons from the start and kept the second one secret to devs. The only thing I can imagine is a slight up-(or down)clock and maaaaybe the enabling of additional CUs which were disabled so far. But the latter is highly unlikely.
The mods themselves are MS fanboys there, so that's why.
That's pretty funny considering CBOAT never outright confirmed the downclock, only the yield issues. Beyond3D is beyond saving.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Again, that's not what I'm saying. I think publishers will have a better RoI with PS4 development because it is easier and doesn't require them to cram 1080p visuals into a 32MB space. It's nothing to do with publishers wanting to please one group of people above another, it is basically about them trying to maximise their return and with PS4 it will be easier to do so and any discrepancies can just be waved away in public as complex hardware or some other such bullshit.
Also, on PS4 if third party visuals are significantly worse than first party ones then the explanation of complex hardware won't hold water because it just isn't true. Whereas with Xbone they can say first parties can spend time and money maximising/optimising the eSRAM/DMAs/Cloud where they are unable to do so because of limited time and money.
phosphor112
Banned
He made a "third grade" comparison to prove a point to someone else. You then came in with your gun cocked and ready to shoot.
Wickerbasket
Member
I hate when people like him misquote CBOAT to try discredit him. CBOAT only ever confirmed that they were having yield issues.
It's especially funny seeing as how often their 'insiders' are wrong and yet no one bats an eyelid.
Bah, you bet me to the post and said it better.
oneils
Member
I tend to agree. Seems to me the incentive is not really there to polish up multiplatform games for the PS4 - unless it is trivial to do so.
First party games, though, we may see a big difference. But maybe after a couple of years?
That "someone else" is DeadlyVirus...
phosphor112
Banned
Dude needs to smash his fingers in a car door about 10 times so he can stop posting. What idiots.
Yep on both accounts.
I thought he was addressing someone else before deadly virus. Oh well, don't care really. Lol.
Clockwork5
Member
this i the lightning you get with 8GB GDDR5 Ram..
(j/k)
This is going to annoy me so much. Pardon my ignorance but does the light serve a purpose? I am going to want to put tape over that thing.
Lots of third parties were demoing on PS4. Killzone looks great. Knack is perhaps just an unambitious launch title and driveclub is either going to improve dramatically or be disappointing. But that's more on evolution than the PS4. I'm not about to declare Xbox more powerful just because Forza 5 took the safe route of cutting features and baking lighting. It all needs to shake out some more, but the specs suggest a clear benefit for the PS4
The esram is by default more complex than the PS4 setup. The key is how automated is it to gain its benefits? If it works like a cache then it is no effort to use, but then you also don't have much control over it. Alternatively if you want more control to get better results,you need to put more effort in. And by your own comments, Multiplatform devs will go for the easy route where possible. It's perfectly possible that if Xbox one's memory system is in any way complex to use, some devs simply won't bother because the publishers won't pay for the time needed.
Stuff like that gets posted on every forum. Gaf especially. There are people in the know and developers that post on that forum, the ones who are legit are known to be legit, just like on Gaf.
The guy in the third link gets banned within a week every single time his ban expires on GAF. ;-)
phosphor112
Banned
B3D used to mean something. Now it's just garbage fanboy wars. Well, a bunch of MS fans joined the place when the "head 2 heads" were being done, and showing huge advantages for 360 over PS3.
If shit like that get's posted on Gaf with no backup the user in question will be banned...
-> Gaf > B3D
Future PhaZe
Member
I don't think third parties will put in the effort to make Ps3 versions of games better than the XBO versions, so I don't know that I expect to see huge differences between the XBO and PS4 visually in anything other than first party titles, and even then probably not until mid gen.
You can argue that we didn't really see anything on the 360 that matched UC2/UC3. Halo 4 and Gears 3 probably come the closest, but not quite imo.
I think decisions on which console should be made should be based on first party and indie support...which is why I'm leaning Ps4...but the visual difference is being overspoken by GAF I think.
You can argue that we didn't really see anything on the 360 that matched UC2/UC3. Halo 4 and Gears 3 probably come the closest, but not quite imo.
I think decisions on which console should be made should be based on first party and indie support...which is why I'm leaning Ps4...but the visual difference is being overspoken by GAF I think.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
I think that used to be true, but lately it's just Dave Baumann spinning for AMD, developer participation went down at the very same time that the fanboys moved in.
But this reads to me that you are actually advocating that Xbone development is prohibitively expensive, not just that they'll put less effort in and blame it on that. I thought you were advocating that they'll just half-arse it and blame it on some imagined difficulties. To the best of my knowledge, Xbone isn't prohibitively difficult, merely marginally moreso than PS4.
To put it another way, during the PS2/Cube/Xbox generation, Xbox versions of multiplatform games were frequently slightly tarted-up up-ports of PS2 games that did not compete at all with the exclusive games on the platform. And Xbox was in a completely different league in terms of ease of programming compared with the PS2; an even larger gulf of difficulty than 360 to PS3 (at least the PS3 had pixel-shaders!). So Xbox was more powerful and easier to develop for, but developers still didn't put the time or the money into making the Xbox sing. Yes, there was a very large userbase disparity that generation. But unless you expect the userbase sizes to be similar to PS2 and Xbox this generation (some people seem to think that), then that would seem to point towards parity in development resources, not massive discrepancy,
Basically I can't see how you get to the position you're maintaining without thinking that for no particular reason, developers will privilege PS4 owners in a way that they've never privileged any other console buyers.
To be honest, that appears to be what every single forum has turned into. To say that isn't happening on Gaf is just friggen silly.
phosphor112
Banned
B3D tech/3D graphic related website.
It's just shitposting now.
Gaf is a gaming forum filled with all sorts of people. People will fight, but there is no reason for the shit posting at B3D.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
Hey, specialguy is special. That's why he's always being banned!
The point i think he's trying to make is that beyond3d is supposed to be a technical forum, where most knowledgeable people would post about graphics and technology. Nowadays, it just seems delusional people are running the show over there.
Other forums, like NeoGAF, have all kinds of people, and isn't focused on the "tech" side of things in general. It's about games.
People can't post misinformation on GAF without being corrected, and if they insist on it, they'll get banned if they can't show credible proof. Having preferences of gaming systems is natural, it's the level of discussion and strict moderation that keeps hardcore fanboyism in check here.
We had this thread from the same source days ago.http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=616471
People can post whatever shit they want, I've seen it happen. They just can't say it is backed up by a source.
lol that is pretty awesome
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
No, amount of TMUs has nothing to do with texture resolution.
Also texture size doesn't really matter to performance when using mipmaps. (well, outside more cache hits during more magnification.)
So, without texture streaming or virtual texturing, more memory allows sharper textures.
Problem is starting to become more about asset creation than it is to keep them in memory and rendering them.
Can we all just hold hands and enjoy VIDEOGAMES, instead of arguing about the black rectangle that plays them?
Yes..the PS4 is more powerful. But no, it doesn't really matter unless the games are better. I just finished Crysis 3: the visuals were jawdroppingly good and my mind could barely comprehend what I was seeing...and yet, the game was plain BAD and unenjoyable because it wasn't fun or clever in any way. Graphics will never be as important as game design and I'm a believer in that more than ever after playing Crysis 3 and State of Decay back to back.
Yes..the PS4 is more powerful. But no, it doesn't really matter unless the games are better. I just finished Crysis 3: the visuals were jawdroppingly good and my mind could barely comprehend what I was seeing...and yet, the game was plain BAD and unenjoyable because it wasn't fun or clever in any way. Graphics will never be as important as game design and I'm a believer in that more than ever after playing Crysis 3 and State of Decay back to back.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
That's why we can have both.
It's a tech thread. A thread where we discuss tech. Debate about tech. Compare tech. Ask things about tech.
For some, it's actually important. Shocking I know..
lololol
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Wow, I didn't see this before. That's just really sad. One thing I like about GAF mods is that they have no platform allegiance, or if they do then they do a good job of not letting it get in the way of their mod duties.
They love to discredit CBoaT but they let shit like this slide:
"I have never said that the added ram or upclock was fact!I only told what my insider at Microsoft told me.He said they was told to come up with some easy cheap alternative to up the specs to please developers!So extra 4 gigs of ram was requested by serval developers!Microsofts own testing showed the GPU and ESRAM could be upclocked to 875 MHZ to 900 MHZ without much variance to the yields which remain inconsistent!So they presented there finding to those above them and are waiting for the green light!If the green light isn't given within in the next week,then most likely they will not happen!
You can chose to believe me or not,but my source has been 100% correct!I also work with an Xbox One development kit every work day!So as the hip hop saying goes haters gonna hate,lovers gonna love,and players going to play!
Ps
My track record includes telling you there was no downclock on GPU when the downclock rumor started!"
http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1764029&postcount=4724
Absolutely insane...
Good for him, product manager != engineer. You can't perform higher than your theoretical maximum.
inpHilltr8r
Member
Indeed. Although IIRC (and it's been a few years now) there was also 512k on the IOP, 256k more on the SPU (sound, no relation to the things in Cell), and some tiny amount in VU0 and VU1, 4k and 16k? I think the IPU worked out of main memory.
Damn that thing was fun. Fiendish, but fun.
It drains your battery faster.
phosphor112
Banned
Lmfao.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Even though I want to hear more about the RAM differences, at this point I want to start seeing some articles about the PS4's sound chip as well.
anexanhume
Member
I don't think so. The GPU in the Xbone is around 1.6 to 1.8B transistors (7770-7790). The GPU in the PS4 is around 2.8B transistors (7850). Jaguar cores are pretty much the same across the two. I think 1B is a safe, low estimate for 8 cores. 6T 32MB of ESRAM is going to be 1.6B transistors.
So we've got 3.8B for PS4, 4.4B for Xbone. That's not counting zlib, audio DSP, custom memory interfaces etc. across the two. With 5 billion transistors, it's impossible for the Xbone to be double the 3.8B count. At most, it's likely 25% more, but that likely doesn't even translate into 25% bigger because that ESRAM is going to pack tight in terms of die space.
And none of the cards are performing near their theoretical maximum. They all have inefficiencies and unutilized or underutilized execution paths. Dave is making the argument that the Xbone is less susceptible to those issues because of the ESRAM. People have been making that argument since ESRAM was rumored, it's nothing new and generally accepted as fact. What's disputed is how much inefficiency it can actually compensate for.
That guys a mod? What an idiot. At least he should do his research before posting. Side note, Cboat never said anything about a down clock, just that he'd heard about yield issues. Add to that he's been right on every single rumour he's ever posted bar one, that is Prince of Persia. So he has like a 99% accuracy rating.
Evidently BRiT from B3D doesn't know shit. No wonder that forum is going belly up and getting such a bad rep whilst it's at it.
It was accepted as fact that it's purpose is to patch terrible bandwidth of system. Not some "secret sauce" that will boost hardware in some way.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Getting crazy around here, people calling out fellow Gaffers as fanboys, delusional etc. That shit used to not fly around here. I've been pretty good about avoiding threads like this, once in awhile I pop into one and sadyoda.gif. I suspect the hammers will start to fall soon.
Anyway, I have no reason to think this guy is lying or even stretching the truth. That being said I suspect after the first two years the PS4's power will be more noticeable, at the beginning I'm expecting parity more or less in multiplats. Sony's first parties will continue to make beautiful games.
Anyway, I have no reason to think this guy is lying or even stretching the truth. That being said I suspect after the first two years the PS4's power will be more noticeable, at the beginning I'm expecting parity more or less in multiplats. Sony's first parties will continue to make beautiful games.
anexanhume
Member
Yes, it does patch the bandwidth, but it, in combination with the move engines, is specifically designed to keep those compute units fed. Anyone who has read the Vgleaks info on the move engines can see that's one of their purposes. If you don't believe they won't achieve that cause in at least some meaningful way over a plain 12 CU GPU, I don't know how to help you.
It's like adding a re-order or branch prediction buffer to a CPU. It's a well accepted method of boosting IPC.
It's still going to vastly underperform compared to the 18 CUs on the PS4, but it won't be a strict 50% boost, 33% reduction and will vary depending on the type of workload.