• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Xbox One hardware breakdown by ExtremeTech.com after HotChips reveal

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
If this were true, wouldn't every GPU do it?

GPUs sometimes do, in fact, include custom silicon for 'other things' - for example audio, video. But for more general things considered to be more the domain of the CPU (e.g. more general data decompression), they probably won't.

In a die that brings everything together, CPU too, you might also have more general custom silicon that a CPU lib might leverage. PS4's does for example, some of the other APUs AMD is bringing out may have, I'm not sure.
 

antic604

Banned
antic604 can just imagine what kind of monster ps4 would have been if it kept the cell instead of the jaguar. we could have gotten a 7-year-old cpu that is still better than an i7 and can do gpu tasks, plus a gpu that can do compute.

antic604 and EmptySpace can only dream.

I see to much 3rd person games influenced they way you write? ;) :D

Anyway, as much as I'd love Sony to go for the crazy-Ken route and build a PS4 on 6Ghz 2x 16-core CellBE without GPU (because who needs it then), I realise how much pain in the ass it would be for devs - even 1st parties - to program for it! We'd once again end up with gimped ports from 'lazy devs'. Sure Epic's Mark Rein or ID's John Carmack dream of CPU-only rendering, where they're not limited to fixed-function GPU architectures and forced solutions, but let's be frank - most developers are nowhere near that level of knowledge and the theoretical Cell-based PS4 would only suffer as a result...
 

stryke

Member
I was listening to the videogamer.com podcast tonight, and during it one of the guys mentioned talking to the Need for Speed Rivals folks at Gamescom. During the interview the guy said flat out that one of the next gen versions of the game was going to look better than the other. Now, this is obvious to us, but it is interesting to hear of a developer confirming it. If they are going to mention that there is a difference, then it would have to be a fairly significant difference.

Skip to 44:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itrb69FmqGQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUR1wCXM9e7NshYfonwa5BAg

Heh, the story with the behind closed doors demo is funny...Playing NFS with a PS4 controller with xbox prompts running on a PC.
 

timlot

Banned
Are you telling me you're gonna pay 100 more dollars for inferior hardware than the competition because it has TItanfall and timed-exclusive DLC ?

Good for you, buddy. In the meanwhile i'll get a PS4 play Titanfall on my PC... Cause you know what, it's system requirements are pretty low.
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=8045&game=Titanfall

I would say the $100 more is for kinect, a superior online experience, superior UI, the ability multitask different media side by side, and yes tv and home theater integration. I'll eventually get a PS4, but right now it does nothing for me. Its just a more powerful "game system like all the ones before it. I'll turn it on when I want to play and turn it off when I wan't to watch tv. If I'm not playing its an expensive shelf ornament. In my teens and early twenties all I cared about was gaming, but for the $400-$600 that these things cost I need more functionality than that. So I like that MS is trying to move beyond that and bring more media integration into the livingroom. I see value in that.
 

Raytow

Member
I would say the $100 more is for kinect, a superior online experience, superior UI, the ability multitask different media side by side, and yes tv and home theater integration. I'll eventually get a PS4, but right now it does nothing for me. Its just a more powerful "game system like all the ones before it. I'll turn it on when I want to play and turn it off when I wan't to watch tv. If I'm not playing its an expensive shelf ornament. In my teens and early twenties all I cared about was gaming, but for the $400-$600 that these things cost I need more functionality than that. So I like that MS is trying to move beyond that and bring more media integration into the livingroom. I see value in that.
Nice PR speech.
 

Klocker

Member
I would just make a clear distinction on what exactly remains to be seen. How much 3rd party devs will utilize the PS4's advantage is certainly up for debate, but the PS4's raw performance advantage is indisputable.

oh, i thought we were discussing xbone and how it remained to be seen if their engineering efforts at efficient design in real world game production would pay off with better than current estimated performance :)
 
That's not true. Cell had great SIMD-performance but the PPU was, frankly, shit and easy to stall. In addition, the SPUs were restricted to their local memory with no direct, care-free access to main memory. Theoretical peak performance doesn't mean much when you are talking about very different architectures.

EmptySpace momentarily forgot they are of different architecture, therefore would not fundamentally work together, even if cell were modified, or even if modifications were made to accommodate the same hardware then it may cease to being the cell entirely.
 

Finalizer

Member

Lemme show you a magic trick.

EDIT:

oh, i thought we were discussing xbone and how it remained to be seen if their engineering efforts at efficient design in real world game production would pay off with better than current estimated performance :)

The original post you responded to brought up the point of comparing the Xbone's "over-engineered" APU compared to the PS4's simpler variant in the first place. The point of comparison between MS' own efforts and that of Sony's was a sticking point of the entire conversation.


First person pronouns are p. cool bro.
 

hwy_61

Banned
For a pure graphical dick-waving comparison, the GPUs in the PS4 & Xbone are roughly equivalent to a 7850 & 7770 respectively, so this handy-dandy comparison table gives an extremely rough idea of the performance difference.

Beyond that... It's hard to say what's going to show up in games. Between first party titles, there will certainly be a difference, no doubt about that. Getting into third party stuff, it's a little harder to say - fact of the matter is, I don't think there's ever been a console generation where two major players had such similar architectures in their systems and that same architecture happens to be x86, where there's decades of experience from PC development to build upon, so it's hard to really draw examples from previous generations as definitive proof of what will happen. Will devs target the Xbone as lead platform, then toss some glitter toward the PS4 and leave it at that? Will they target the PS4, and do serious hack jobs on the visuals to get them to run on the Xbone? Will they just target PC because "lol it's all x86," and simply cut down as necessary to hit acceptable performance on each console? How do you quantify what counts as a significant difference between the consoles anyway? Will it be immediately obvious just looking at it, or will devs cut away on AA/resolution for the Xbone version and try to leave basic visuals as untouched as possible? Actual graphics engineers would have more insight into those topics than I, but suffice to say it's gonna be an interesting generation to watch unfold.

And let it be said - there will be meltdowns come November. Grab some popcorn, sit back, and enjoy the show.

I like this post.
 

Klocker

Member
EDIT:



The original post you responded to brought up the point of comparing the Xbone's "over-engineered" APU compared to the PS4's simpler variant in the first place. The point of comparison between MS' own efforts and that of Sony's was a sticking point of the entire conversation.

.

original quote was directed at xbones design decisions with one mention of Sony costs...

but I will not pick a nit with you. :)

bottom line of my point is we don't know how well xbone will perform with this engineering design until the devs get to play with it for a while. Its not as simple as brute force numbers.
 
He said he'd get a PS4, is the douchey reply necessary?

A lot of his points were subjective.

Superior online experience - I don't care for the "online experience" all I care about is if I hit multiplayer that I can connect to a game and play with people and not have everything locked behind a paywall

Superior UI - I hate metro, it is horrible. Windows 8 looks like a pile of shit.

Multitasking - PS4 can do that, I don't need to snap a website that takes up 1/5th of the screen causing letterboxing on games just so it can keep aspect ratio. Lot's of people have tablets and phones, sure its convenient to have it in your view so you don't have to look away from the TV but its hardly a plus point.

Home Theatre Integration - I don't give a flying feck about this either, a lot of the services are going to be geared towards US, hell even the TV stuff wont work outside of the US at launch. All I will get is an EPG........my satellite box already gives me an EPG why would I need to use the Xbox just so I can watch TV. Anyone who cares about that already has an AV Receiver and probably a universal remote.
 

Jallopy

Member
No seriously, aside from the fluff, a chunk of his actual points were totally subjective and/or baseless at this point.

Opinions, man. I'm an older guy, I have 4 kids, and the original Kinect has proven valuable to me. Watching the kids beat each other up during a Kinect Sport boxing tournament was pretty entertaining, and tired them all out. It lets me discuss the possibility of getting a next Gen console with the wife as a family purchase, which also makes the price easier to swallow.

That kind of thing helps sell consoles. And keep in mind the marketing for these things hasn't really begun yet. MS might show off Titanfall on Jimmy Fallon, but you know it will be Kinect something on Ellen.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Superior online experience - I don't care for the "online experience" all I care about is if I hit multiplayer that I can connect to a game and play with people and not have everything locked behind a paywall

This doesn't make sense though. If all you want is something where you hit multiplayer and connect to a game then you have to pay on PS4 for that too, so why are you complaining about the paywall?
 
This doesn't make sense though. If all you want is something where you hit multiplayer and connect to a game then you have to pay on PS4 for that too, so why are you complaining about the paywall?

I don't have to pay if I play f2p games or mmos with subscriptions, I don't have to pay to watch netflix on top of my netflix subscription, browse the internet, etc.. etc..

If superior online experience means having everything you can get for free on other systems locked behind paywall then I don't want it.

Sure PS4 has subscription but I am fully paid up on PS+ till the end of 2014 anyway thanks to PS3 Instant Game Collection so it's a non-issue for me.
 

Finalizer

Member
Opinions, man. I'm an older guy, I have 4 kids, and the original Kinect has proven valuable to me. Watching the kids beat each other up during a Kinect Sport boxing tournament was pretty entertaining, and tired them all out. It lets me discuss the possibility of getting a next Gen console with the wife as a family purchase, which also makes the price easier to swallow.

That kind of thing helps sell consoles. And keep in mind the marketing for these things hasn't really begun yet. MS might show off Titanfall on Jimmy Fallon, but you know it will be Kinect something on Ellen.

I'm not saying folks can't personally find value in Kinect or other Xbone features & services, I'm just saying that I agree with the other guy, that timlot's post reeked of PR speak.
 

miked808

Member
Opinions, man. I'm an older guy, I have 4 kids, and the original Kinect has proven valuable to me. Watching the kids beat each other up during a Kinect Sport boxing tournament was pretty entertaining, and tired them all out. It lets me discuss the possibility of getting a next Gen console with the wife as a family purchase, which also makes the price easier to swallow.

That kind of thing helps sell consoles. And keep in mind the marketing for these things hasn't really begun yet. MS might show off Titanfall on Jimmy Fallon, but you know it will be Kinect something on Ellen.

Ditto this.
 

Jallopy

Member
I'm not saying folks can't personally find value in Kinect or other Xbone features & services, I'm just saying that I agree with the other guy, that timlot's post reeked of PR speak.

I don't know, I hear PR speak, and it kind of implies shill. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but Gaf has been very "witch-hunty" lately with AstroTurf accusations.
 

antic604

Banned
I would say the $100 more is for kinect, a superior online experience, superior UI, the ability multitask different media side by side, and yes tv and home theater integration. I'll eventually get a PS4, but right now it does nothing for me. Its just a more powerful "game system like all the ones before it. I'll turn it on when I want to play and turn it off when I wan't to watch tv. If I'm not playing its an expensive shelf ornament. In my teens and early twenties all I cared about was gaming, but for the $400-$600 that these things cost I need more functionality than that. So I like that MS is trying to move beyond that and bring more media integration into the livingroom. I see value in that.

Opinions, man. I'm an older guy, I have 4 kids, and the original Kinect has proven valuable to me. Watching the kids beat each other up during a Kinect Sport boxing tournament was pretty entertaining, and tired them all out. It lets me discuss the possibility of getting a next Gen console with the wife as a family purchase, which also makes the price easier to swallow.

That kind of thing helps sell consoles. And keep in mind the marketing for these things hasn't really begun yet. MS might show off Titanfall on Jimmy Fallon, but you know it will be Kinect something on Ellen.

Very good points.

Xbone will sell like crazy despite $100 difference, lower specs, 'forced' Kinect and their ridiculous 180's on policies. It is completely obvious that for a lot of people being able to speak & wave to their TV and integrate the console with their home theater easily trumps any potential advantage the PS4 might have in graphics fidelity - not that they'd care, let alone notice it. And let's not forget that Gaf (and similar enthusiast sites) are like <1% of gamers, therefore we might be loud, but in the end quite irrelevant in the bigger picture.

At times all this reminds me of comparisons of Windows vs. Linux or iOS vs. Android, and while in many ways objectively the latter systems are better, yet they struggle to compete with the former due to their mass-market appeal.

That's why I wasn't surprised with Sony's E3 conference where they were talking music & movies. We (the GAF) know those things will anyway be available for PS4, but does average person in the street know?
 

JaggedSac

Member
I'm surprised that there is still dick waving going on with regards to these consoles, given the fact that launch titles all look and perform better on PC and it is the only place with free online.
 

Finalizer

Member
I don't know, I hear PR speak, and it kind of implies shill. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but Gaf has been very "witch-hunty" lately with AstroTurf accusations.

Fair enough. Can't speak for the other guy, but I'm not accusing anyone of being a shill or whatever. Just saying, whether intentional or not, that post sounded like a used car salesman's pitch.
 

timlot

Banned
I'm not saying folks can't personally find value in Kinect or other Xbone features & services, I'm just saying that I agree with the other guy, that timlot's post reeked of PR speak.

Maybe I should have just said, "XBOX ONE ROXXX and PS4 SUXXX".

Its just my opinion. There's a weird sense around here that if you haven't drunk the Sony kool-aid something wrong with you. A thread giving a technical breakdown of XBone hardware brings out the usual cast of "tech jargon characters" to bash it and bring up PS4 has more this and 40% more that, ROPs, and Gigafooflopidiflops. I just don't think its that simple because the systems can do different things. It just not an apple to apple comparison when you judge it as an overall system.
 
Very good points.

Xbone will sell like crazy despite $100 difference, lower specs, 'forced' Kinect and their ridiculous 180's on policies. It is completely obvious that for a lot of people being able to speak & wave to their TV and integrate the console with their home theater easily trumps any potential advantage the PS4 might have in graphics fidelity - not that they'd care, let alone notice it. And let's not forget that Gaf (and similar enthusiast sites) are like <1% of gamers, therefore we might be loud, but in the end quite irrelevant in the bigger picture.

At times all this reminds me of comparisons of Windows vs. Linux or iOS vs. Android, and while in many ways objectively the latter systems are better, yet they struggle to compete with the former due to their mass-market appeal.

That's why I wasn't surprised with Sony's E3 conference where they were talking music & movies. We (the GAF) know those things will anyway be available for PS4, but does average person in the street know?


I don't think that casuals consider kinect forced. It's probably seen as a feature that increases accessibility. I know the original worked that way in my home. Kinect sports and Dance central were killer apps for two separate segments within the causal market if Kinect V2 has anything close then it will sell. No one came over and asked to see my PS3 after Bluray players became common place :(

Also, not sure the Win/Lin and IOS/android are comparisons are valid. Linux and Android are "objectively" better because they allow the end user the flexibility to tinker not exactly something that matters much on closed systems.
 

Finalizer

Member
There's a weird sense around here that if you haven't drunk the Sony kool-aid something wrong with you.

Then you'll be pleased to learn that Gaf is, in fact, not a hivemind. Try not to feel too persecuted when other people have thoughts that don't align with your own.

A thread giving a technical breakdown of XBone hardware brings out the usual cast of "tech jargon characters" to bash it and bring up PS4 has more this and 40% more that, ROPs, and Gigafooflopidiflops.

As an outsider who's only recently entered, it looks more to me like "any thread that brings up technical details of either upcoming console tends to bring out the console warriors on both sides." Ya know, like any gaming forum in the throes of a console war.
 
I'm not trying to sound like a negative nancy all the time about the Xbone, but I honestly think Titanfall is going to move 360s over Xbones the most.

The 360 is pretty much dead in the West. Nothin is going to move that needle other than a serious price drop.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I don't have to pay if I play f2p games or mmos with subscriptions, I don't have to pay to watch netflix on top of my netflix subscription, browse the internet, etc.. etc..

If superior online experience means having everything you can get for free on other systems locked behind paywall then I don't want it.

Sure PS4 has subscription but I am fully paid up on PS+ till the end of 2014 anyway thanks to PS3 Instant Game Collection so it's a non-issue for me.

I get what you're saying, I'm just saying I'm not really sure I see why 'this stuff isn't behind a paywall' is a positive for you if you're paying for it anyway.
 

vpance

Member
Seems weird that they spent all that time and effort designing such an enormous chip with crazy customisations out the wazoo when a more standard part would give them better performance. What's the advantage of this? Sony are probably paying less for a more powerful APU, so what gives? Just over-engineering?

Scared of RROD, overconfident on Kinect, and the misfortune of focusing everything around 8GB DDR3 first.
 

timlot

Banned
Then you'll be pleased to learn that Gaf is, in fact, not a hivemind. Try not to feel too persecuted when other people have thoughts that don't align with your own.

I don't feel persecuted at all. I was asked a question about why I would pay $100 more for a console with lower specs and I answered. I wasn't expecting to be called a used car sells man giving PR speak. But no I don't feel persecuted. :)

As an outsider who's only recently entered, it looks more to me like "any thread that brings up technical details of either upcoming console tends to bring out the console warriors on both sides." Ya know, like any gaming forum in the throes of a console war.

Yeah, but there is defiantly more vitriol toward one sided. Almost a hate crime.
 

ToyBroker

Banned
I don't feel persecuted at all. I was asked a question about why I would pay $100 more for a console with lower specs and I answered. I wasn't expecting to be called a used car sells man giving PR speak. But no I don't feel persecuted. :)



Yeah, but there is defiantly more vitriol toward one sided. Almost a hate crime.


Liz-Lemon-Eye-Roll-and-Exhale-30-Rock.gif

x 100000
 

antic604

Banned
I don't think that casuals consider kinect forced. It's probably seen as a feature that increases accessibility.

I meant 'forced' for us - the Gaf-crowd. Obviously it's a feature for casuals (hence my comments about speaking & waving at TV).

Also, not sure the Win/Lin and IOS/android are comparisons are valid. Linux and Android are "objectively" better because they allow the end user the flexibility to tinker not exactly something that matters much on closed systems.

Again, it wasn't to be taken literally - more like mainstream users don't care if Android or Linux is more powerful (in this case: more flexible, customisable) than their direct competitors, because iOS and Android respectively fulfill their needs. In the same way they might not care for PS4's performance advantage if Xbone is good enough or the difference is not noticeable to them, while it offers some additional benefits (e.g. Kinect, TV integration).
 

Finalizer

Member
I don't feel persecuted at all.

Dunno how that jives with having "a weird sense around here that if you haven't drunk the Sony kool-aid something wrong with you" but okay.

Yeah, but there is defiantly more vitriol toward one sided. Almost a hate crime.

'Lil hyperbolic there.

I see plenty of vitriol from both directions. If I had to offer my own point-of-view, I'd say one side feels like they're being attacked more because they've got an obvious opening (weaker console) that's readily exploited in debates, but in terms of overall shit-flinging and dick-waggling, nah there's plenty from both sides.
 

ToyBroker

Banned
Alright, I forget...whose the sonofabitch who posted a link to that misterxmedia's livejournal?

I can't stop reading it now. I swear this dude might be mentally ill.

And reading the comments it ALMOST seems like it's just him posting as different people with slightly better or worse english. And the inside interview he just posted up? Holy fuck it's gold.
 

Dunlop

Member
Dunno how that jives with having "a weird sense around here that if you haven't drunk the Sony kool-aid something wrong with you
Guy answers A question asked with a nice detailed personal opinion of why xb1 had value to him
Putting a lot of thought into your rebuttal you accuse him of PR speak(2 words)...but then say you are not calling him a shill

Back to the op,I remember readingthere is 8gb of flash on the xb1.Is it confirmed to be dedicated to the os?
 

Finalizer

Member
Putting a lot of thought into your rebuttal you accuse him of PR speak(2 words)...but then say you are not calling him a shill

This might surprise you, but something can sound like PR speak... Without literally being PR speak. Pretty crazy, I know.

EDIT: And for posterity's sake, here's my original response to the whole thing. And I'll leave it at that, because this whole side discussion is delving into "personal, subjective interpretation of what a post as a whole looks like." Gettin' OT, yeah.
 

ToyBroker

Banned
Guy answers A question asked with a nice detailed personal opinion of why xb1 had value to him
Putting a lot of thought into your rebuttal you accuse him of PR speak(2 words)...but then say you are not calling him a shill

Back to the op,I remember readingthere is 8gb of flash on the xb1.Is it confirmed to be dedicated to the os?

Hasn't been confirmed to be dedicated to the OS.

The most logical conclusion drawn thus far is that it's used for the suspending of games and such.
 
I meant 'forced' for us - the Gaf-crowd. Obviously it's a feature for casuals (hence my comments about speaking & waving at TV).



Again, it wasn't to be taken literally - more like mainstream users don't care if Android or Linux is more powerful (in this case: more flexible, customisable) than their direct competitors, because iOS and Android respectively fulfill their needs. In the same way they might not care for PS4's performance advantage if Xbone is good enough or the difference is not noticeable to them, while it offers some additional benefits (e.g. Kinect, TV integration).


OK. Lets agree that we agree. Back to specs :)
 

Bobnob

Member
I would say the $100 more is for kinect, a superior online experience, superior UI, the ability multitask different media side by side, and yes tv and home theater integration. I'll eventually get a PS4, but right now it does nothing for me. Its just a more powerful "game system like all the ones before it. I'll turn it on when I want to play and turn it off when I wan't to watch tv. If I'm not playing its an expensive shelf ornament. In my teens and early twenties all I cared about was gaming, but for the $400-$600 that these things cost I need more functionality than that. So I like that MS is trying to move beyond that and bring more media integration into the livingroom. I see value in that.

I'm a 37 yo gamer who pretty much agree's with this maybe its cos i'm old. : )
 
Hasn't been confirmed to be dedicated to the OS.

The most logical conclusion drawn thus far is that it's used for the suspending of games and such.

I don't think it's gonna be used to suspend games. When you suspend the system, the ram is still powered and xb1's not gonna touch the ram dedicated to games for non gaming tasks. Like when you minimize pc games to the taskbar to check the web or something.

Edit: Maybe it's used for storing the hypervisor (virtualization) os? 8gb will be more than enough to store the kernel and virtualization related libraries.
 

CoG

Member
You two are not alone. It may be heresy to say it, but a lot of people do want those multimedia features.

it's not so much a question of wanting them, it's paying a premium for them and then paying a yearly upkeep on top of that for continued access that's unacceptable to many, myself included.
 
Top Bottom