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[shinra-bansho]

If one wants to argue that the theoretical performance delta isn't enough to translate into a tangible/noticeable real-world performance delta, then sure.

But whether the disparity in theoretical performance shows or not, the PS3 and 360 are simply not analogous

It's a false equivalency and a poor argument for the idea that there won't be any differences in performance.

 

[Futurevoid]

I was wondering. If I'm buying a PS4, what's the right distance to sit from my 60" plasma?

About 8 feet is the optimum viewing distance for that size television.

 

[clickclack]

If one wants to argue that the theoretical performance delta isn't enough to translate into a tangible/noticeable real-world performance delta, then sure.

But whether the disparity in theoretical performance shows or not, the PS3 and 360 are simply not analogous

It's a false equivalency and a poor argument for the idea that there won't be any differences in performance.

True, but until proven it's just conjecture and not gospel as some would have you believe. Had the argument been framed that way I'd be inclined to agree with you, but we get statements such as in one years time we'll see a huge difference.

So on one hand we have false equivalency and on the other conjecture

 

[Chobel]

Can we just stop using PS3/X360 performance difference to reflect on PS4/XBO case?

 

[clickclack]

Can we just stop using PS3/X360 performance difference to reflect on PS4/XBO case?

Something about the deja vu of this argument from last gen bugging you? I don't mean to be snide...just asking.

 

[BajiRav]

This is another intellectually dishonest metric to use for performance comparisons. It has also been discussed to death in other threads, but I'll attempt to summarize.

First and foremost, 60fps is a design choice, nothing more. You can choose between a crazy amount of effects, or tone them down (compromises are the key to developing on a closed box system) and reach a higher frame rate and resolution. This is why you see effect heavy games like Ryse at 1600x900 on the same system as a 1080p Forza.

Driveclub and Forza are doing completely different things. Driveclub uses dynamic lighting, whereas Forza primarily uses pre-baked lighting. This is part of why there's no real change in time of day for Forza, whereas Driveclub has a day-night cycle. So the lighting and shader technologies in each are totally different, with Driveclub as the arguably more advanced, "next-gen" approach. Because of the differences in what they're doing from a technical standpoint, Driveclub uses more of the system's power on things that Forza isn't even attempting. This leads to Forza being able to render more frames per second, because there is far less computation having to be put in each frame.

I'm not very technically inclined, so I used some caveman terms in that summary. If there's any GAFers that are more proficient, I'd welcome a better-explained version of what I just said

Why is day-night cycle "next-gen" though? (but drivatar is not) That seem to be arbitrary definition of what is next gen and what is not.

 

[clickclack]

This is another intellectually dishonest metric to use for performance comparisons. It has also been discussed to death in other threads, but I'll attempt to summarize.

First and foremost, 60fps is a design choice, nothing more. You can choose between a crazy amount of effects, or tone them down (compromises are the key to developing on a closed box system) and reach a higher frame rate and resolution. This is why you see effect heavy games like Ryse at 1600x900 on the same system as a 1080p Forza.

Driveclub and Forza are doing completely different things. Driveclub uses dynamic lighting, whereas Forza primarily uses pre-baked lighting. This is part of why there's no real change in time of day for Forza, whereas Driveclub has a day-night cycle. So the lighting and shader technologies in each are totally different, with Driveclub as the arguably more advanced, "next-gen" approach. Because of the differences in what they're doing from a technical standpoint, Driveclub uses more of the system's power on things that Forza isn't even attempting. This leads to Forza being able to render more frames per second, because there is far less computation having to be put in each frame.

I'm not very technically inclined, so I used some caveman terms in that summary. If there's any GAFers that are more proficient, I'd welcome a better-explained version of what I just said

EDIT: Further clarification of my argument. There are also more realistic reflections in DC. The result of the pre-baked lighting in Forza leads to the shadows of trees and buildings looking "pasted on" the pavement, and though the sun appears to shift slightly in that one video, the shadows are not affected by this change. This is because the shadows outside the cockpit are not dynamic.

I'm assuming then that you are also dismissing folks saying that Forza while doing less and not really truly next gen looking better then Driveclub?

 

[Chobel]

True, but until proven it's just conjecture and not gospel as some would have you believe. Had the argument been framed that way I'd be inclined to agree with you, but we get statements such as in one years time we'll see a huge difference.

So on one hand we have false equivalency and on the other conjecture

We know Xbox One GPU is 1.31 Tflops, PS4 GPU is 1.84 Tflops. So if you can get 72% efficiency from PS4 GPU you will outdo Xbox One.

 

[Chumpion]

About 8 feet is the optimum viewing distance for that size television.

Cool, thanks. My post was a joke but that's actually interesting because I just measured the current distance that I had arrived at by feel - it's almost exactly 8 feet.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Why is day-night cycle "next-gen" though? (but drivatar is not) That seem to be arbitrary definition of what is next gen and what is not.

Because we're talking about console performance and not made-up buzzwords.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Why is day-night cycle "next-gen" though? That seem to be arbitrary definition of what is next gen and what is not.

Day-night isn't "next gen," but the dynamic lighting techniques used in conjunction with those cycles are certainly "next gen." Pre-baked lighting does not qualify as next gen because it is used right now by a ton of current gen games. Real-time reflections and shadows from hundreds of individual light sources is not being used in current gen console titles, on the other hand. I didn't call out day and night cycles as being specifically next gen... Reread my post. I was saying that it was something that DC prioritized that Forza did not. It's just one of several things that amalgamate to create what is arguably a much more technically taxing game.

 

[PSGames]

This is another intellectually dishonest metric to use for performance comparisons. It has also been discussed to death in other threads, but I'll attempt to summarize.

First and foremost, 60fps is a design choice, nothing more. You can choose between a crazy amount of effects, or tone them down (compromises are the key to developing on a closed box system) and reach a higher frame rate and resolution. This is why you see effect heavy games like Ryse at 1600x900 on the same system as a 1080p Forza.

Driveclub and Forza are doing completely different things. Driveclub uses dynamic lighting, whereas Forza primarily uses pre-baked lighting. This is part of why there's no real change in time of day for Forza, whereas Driveclub has a day-night cycle. So the lighting and shader technologies in each are totally different, with Driveclub as the arguably more advanced, "next-gen" approach. Because of the differences in what they're doing from a technical standpoint, Driveclub uses more of the system's power on things that Forza isn't even attempting. This leads to Forza being able to render more frames per second, because there is far less computation having to be put in each frame.

I'm not very technically inclined, so I used some caveman terms in that summary. If there's any GAFers that are more proficient, I'd welcome a better-explained version of what I just said

EDIT: Further clarification of my argument. There are also more realistic reflections in DC. The result of the pre-baked lighting in Forza leads to the shadows of trees and buildings looking "pasted on" the pavement, and though the sun appears to shift slightly in that one video, the shadows are not affected by this change. This is because the shadows outside the cockpit are not dynamic.

Both games are Next-gen. Either you like more effects at the expense of framerate and will go DC or you prefer a rock solid 60fps with less effects and will go Forza. There's no reason to believe that either game couldn't have done the opposite if they wanted to.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

This is another intellectually dishonest metric to use for performance comparisons. It has also been discussed to death in other threads, but I'll attempt to summarize.

First and foremost, 60fps is a design choice, nothing more. You can choose between a crazy amount of effects, or tone them down (compromises are the key to developing on a closed box system) and reach a higher frame rate and resolution. This is why you see effect heavy games like Ryse at 1600x900 on the same system as a 1080p Forza.

Driveclub and Forza are doing completely different things. Driveclub uses dynamic lighting, whereas Forza primarily uses pre-baked lighting. This is part of why there's no real change in time of day for Forza, whereas Driveclub has a day-night cycle. So the lighting and shader technologies in each are totally different, with Driveclub as the arguably more advanced, "next-gen" approach. Because of the differences in what they're doing from a technical standpoint, Driveclub uses more of the system's power on things that Forza isn't even attempting. This leads to Forza being able to render more frames per second, because there is far less computation having to be put in each frame.

I'm not very technically inclined, so I used some caveman terms in that summary. If there's any GAFers that are more proficient, I'd welcome a better-explained version of what I just said

I would love to see racing games truly advance. An example like you just used is racing laps only to see the exact same sun glare each time you hit a certain point (Forza). Years ago they brought in skid marks, that added to the realism even though it was just one small effect. True next gen gaming to me is seeing those Killzone: Shadow fall demo's where the lush and vibrant backgrounds can be searched with living and breathable A.I. Jump from the helicopter at any point and start shooting some baddies in a non-scripted environment. It's why I started getting bored with games like Call of Duty. You simply follow a path and if you die you go back to the last checkpoint and the same scripted scene plays out. I've been meddling with the new Splinter Cell and while it is very enjoyable it too falls victim to this.

There will always be trade-offs when making games. Do you focus on pure visuals at the sake of a good frame rate or do you have smooth as butter gameplay while dropping resolution? It would be nice to have both 100% of the time but they always want to push the hardware, especially in the big budgeted games. Using multiplat games as a guideline to me showcases the power of each platform because a developer like Naughty Dog has their own style, their own tricks they use and a different goal than other developers. Can you honestly say the Uncharted series had good A.I. and was not created on a scripted linear path? Even comparing Forza to Gran Turismo has it's headaches. Each has it's own views on A.I., physics, backgrounds, customization, damage, tire grip, sound and so on.

 

[Chobel]

Something about the deja vu of this argument from last gen bugging you? I don't mean to be snide...just asking.

Not that, but because PS3 and X360 had different architecture. Now PS4 and Xbox one have similar architecture.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

I'm assuming then that you are also dismissing folks saying that Forza while doing less and not really truly next gen looking better then Driveclub?

Not at all. What looks better is entirely subjective. Which rendering techniques are more technologically advanced and taxing is not. This is why people can think that cel-shaded games that are not doing much technically (like Okami, for instance) are beautiful, while disliking the realist feel of games like ARMA3 that are far more graphically taxing. I would never try to belittle someone's opinion on what they find attractive in art.

Good art =/= next gen, though. Next gen equates to processing techniques that were not possible on the current hardware.

 

[clickclack]

Day-night isn't "next gen," but the dynamic lighting techniques used in conjunction with those cycles are certainly "next gen." Pre-baked lighting does not qualify as next gen because it is used right now by a ton of current gen games. Real-time reflections and shadows from hundreds of individual light sources is not being used in current gen console titles, on the other hand. I didn't call out day and night cycles as being specifically next gen... Reread my post. I was saying that it was something that DC prioritized that Forza did not. It's just one of several things that amalgamate to create what is arguably a much more technically taxing game.

Are you suggesting that if XO dropped their FPS to 30 like DC has done they wouldn't be able to deliver a comparable visual effect? Seems like clearly the DC team made a significant tradeoff. Even on 50% more powerful hardware...

 

[FranXico]

Something about the deja vu of this argument from last gen bugging you? I don't mean to be snide...just asking.

It's a blatant false analogy fallacy. That's what annoys people.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Are you suggesting that if XO dropped their FPS to 30 like DC has done they wouldn't be able to deliver a comparable visual effect? Seems like clearly the DC team made a significant tradeoff.

That's entirely up for debate. I personally don't believe Driveclub to be using the PS4 to its maximum potential, so it is certainly plausable that the Xbox One could have sacrificed the framerate on Forza to achieve similar effects. I never claimed otherwise. I simply stated that pointing to the framerate differences between two titles that are shooting for completely different goals is disingenuous.

 

[shinra-bansho]

True, but until proven it's just conjecture and not gospel as some would have you believe. Had the argument been framed that way I'd be inclined to agree with you, but we get statements such as in one years time we'll see a huge difference.

So on one hand we have false equivalency and on the other conjecture

What are you referring to as conjecture and what are you saying isn't proven? That there will be a performance delta is assumption right now; sure, I agree it remains to be seen. But there's a lot of basis to conclude there will be one.

Since you posted this, after you responded to me.

Something about the deja vu of this argument from last gen bugging you? I don't mean to be snide...just asking.

It feels like you don't get why this line of reasoning is a false equivalency.

It isn't conjecture that architecturally these systems are much more similar than the 7th gen HD systems. They're both APUs using AMD's GCN architecture. They essentially have the same CPU, with the XB1's clocked slightly faster. The GPUs have different numbers of the same components, but they're the same components from the same hardware vendor.

Their differences essentially lay in their memory subsystems and fixed function accessory hardware - and even then with the latter much of that is basically the same between the two.

 

[JaggedSac]

I find it strange that despite these discounts most publishers are still using their own servers, such as Ubisoft, Activision (with COD), EA etc. Perhaps the discounts aren't that great that it offsets buying and managing your own servers?

Certainly not when they already own those servers. That wouldn't really make much sense. But isn't Activision using MS servers for COD?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Both games are Next-gen. Either you like more effects at the expense of framerate and will go DC or you prefer a rock solid 60fps with less effects and will go Forza. There's no reason to believe that either game couldn't have done the opposite if they wanted to.

Pretty sure I never said that Forza wasn't next gen. I simply said it wasn't using as many "next gen" graphical techniques. Don't put words in my mouth, please.

 

[clickclack]

That's entirely up for debate. I personally don't believe Driveclub to be using the PS4 to its maximum potential, so it is certainly plausable that the Xbox One could have sacrificed the framerate on Forza to achieve similar effects. I never claimed otherwise. I simply stated that pointing to the framerate differences between two titles that are shooting for completely different goals is disingenuous.

From my quoted article...the developer is "pushing ps4 hard"

While I appreciate your personal opinion and as you state you are not very technical...I'm going to go ahead and believe what the developer said.

 

[JaggedSac]

btw - misterX is getting desperate :

lol, this dude is something else.

 

[Skeff]

Oh wait...oops...I've seen some swear words and stuff I thought this was above board...if not my apologies!

no problems with swear words, but the representation of an entire forum full of people with different opinions into "minions" borders on the personal insult boundary. Not to mention the whole circle jerk thing borders onto "hivemind" territory, both of which are against the TOS.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

From my quoted article...the developer is "pushing ps4 hard"

While I appreciate your personal opinion and as you state you are not very technical...I'm going to go ahead and believe what the developer said.

And that's perfectly fine. But I hope you understand that "pushing" the hardware doesn't equate to effectively using it. This applies to either console. With that logic, someone could claim that Ryse was the best an Xbox One game would ever look, because Crytek is also pushing the hardware.

Remember how Gears of War 1 "maxed out" the 360? Yeah, thank God that wasn't true. Halo 4 and Judgement both look ridiculously better.

It's going to take years before developers max out the hardware, as there are always ways to optimize early in a console's life cycle.

EDIT: By the same token, you should also keep in mind that the PS4 architecture has several advantages over the Xbox One's in regards to GPU compute. Just look at nib's hardware list for the actual numbers (don't know them by heart haha). These techniques won't come to the fore for a few years, according to the lead architect of the system. Just something to keep in mind. I'm not saying that the Xbox One doesn't have the capability for compute, though. Just that it doesn't have as many resources available for it.

 

[clickclack]

no problems with swear words, but the representation of an entire forum full of people with different opinions into "minions" borders on the personal insult boundary. Not to mention the whole circle jerk thing borders onto "hivemind" territory, both of which are against the TOS.

And again, my apologies...Will that suffice or do I need to go above and beyond that. I overstepped...

 

[mrklaw]

About 8 feet is the optimum viewing distance for that size television.

how do people have space for a sofa and coffee table in front of their TVs if they sit 6-8ft away from them? I'd love to sit a bit closer for more spectacle, but there is no space. I need pics of peoples' setups

 

[iJudged]

What's the conclusion here? Can someone please summarize the thread?

 

[clickclack]

What's the conclusion here? Can someone please summarize the thread?

These boxes can't arrive soon enough?

The conclusion for me is that PS4 has significantly better raw specs...how that translates in implementation will take time to sort out.

 

[iJudged]

These boxes can't arrive soon enough?

The conclusion for me is that PS4 has significantly better raw specs...how that translates in implementation will take time to sort out.

Sweet, thnx

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

These boxes can't arrive soon enough?

The conclusion for me is that PS4 has significantly better raw specs...how that translates in implementation will take time to sort out.

Exactly!

 

[cyberheater]

btw - misterX is getting desperate :

'Tis always an entertaining read.

 

[tfur]

What's the conclusion here? Can someone please summarize the thread?

There is no special sauce other than media/PR outlets.

 

[iJudged]

There is no special sauce other than media/PR outlets.

Just as I thought. Ty

 

[Skeff]

'Tis always an entertaining read.

heh, try this one out:

Second the 290 has been stated more than 5 tflops, and 6 billion transistors, in 424 mm2
Ms has 5 billion transistors in 363 mm2 with an extra 150mm filled with more.
Doing quick Maths, 6billion= 5tflops, then 5 billion = 4.2

those transistors man...It's got to be a joke right? it HAS to be a parody blog....

 

[badb0y]

First off, I have seen the whole generation first hand from owning both a PS3 and XBox 360. I've seen it all from the beginning to now. During that time I've witnessed the same emotions and the same reactions I'm seeing now. Looking back it was mostly all a bunch of wasted time because the reality is both those systems ended up being a lot closer than many wanted to admit. The multiplat games are the best representations to go by because they are often created by the same teams.

Early on we seen the PS3 struggle at times and the excuses then were indeed warranted, they simply didn't either have enough time or experience dealing with the PS3. As time went on we seen much better parity among those multiplat games. We also got a few that used the PS3 as the lead platform such as Burnout Paradise. Did that really show a huge advantage over the XBox 360? The big advantage the PS3 had was using the bluray storage to get away from disc-swapping. So a game like Star Ocean definitely benefited on the PS3 because it made backtracking an issue on the XBox 360. Could this have been countered if Microsoft made every XBox 360 have a mandatory hard-drive?

Either way we seen the arguments go back and forth with no real end. The PS3 was marketed as this powerful super computer that really didn't come to fruition because 8 years later the XBox 360 is still keeping up with it. Is GTA V much better on the PS3? Not really.

So does this mean the same thing will occur with the PS4 not being able to show the clear advantage many are suggesting now? We don't know yet. Again on paper it shows there is a clear advantage for the PS4 but Sony also showed specs for the PS3 that tried to make the XBox 360 appear to be an XBox 1.5. The excuse they make games for the lowest common denominator doesn't really ring true does it? Didn't the XBox 360 and PS3 both show clear advantages over the Wii? Didn't PC games also show clear advantages over the PS3 and XBox 360? So why was all the focus to these middle-ground platforms getting all the attention, and why does it look to be the same situation moving forward?

Thank you, you put more elegantly what I was trying to say.

The minute anyone points out the fallacy of the arguments that have played out last gen into this gen...immediately the assumption is made that I must have sold my soul to MS.

This Generation:
PS3:
Cell CPU
nVidia RSX w/ 256 GDDR3 RAM
256 XDR System RAM
DVD/bluray disc
5400 rpm HDD

vs.

Xbox 360:
Xenon CPU
ATi Xenos w/ 512mb RAM GDDR3(shared with memory)
10mb eDRAM
DVD/ HD DVD disc
5400 rpm

Next Generation:

PS4:
AMD Jaguar CPU - 8 core(1.6 Ghz? unconfirmed)
AMD Radeon GPU - 1.84 Tflops
8GB GDDR5 RAM
bluray disc drive

vs

Xbox One:
AMD Jaguar CPU - 8 cores(1.75 Ghz Confirmed)
AMD Radeon GPU - 1.31 Tflops
8 GB DDR3 RAM + 32 Mb eSRAM
bluray disc drive

Now that it's laid out I hope you guys can see the difference and I don't have to explain any further.

 

[cyberheater]

heh, try this one out:



those transistors man...It's got to be a joke right? it HAS to be a parody blog....

Those MS tech Ninja's must be the best in the world. Hiding the extra Tflops from leaks, the media and the developers. Take a bow lads. Take a bow.

 

[badb0y]

Those MS tech Ninja's must be the best in the world. Hiding the extra Tflops from leaks, the media and the developers. Take a bow lads. Take a bow.

I read that blog on the daily just to see his house of cards fall on him.

The problem is he will keep lying and twisting until the 22nd of November when the console gets into the hands of Chipworks or iFixit and they do a teardown.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Those MS tech Ninja's must be the best in the world. Hiding the extra Tflops from leaks, the media and the developers. Take a bow lads. Take a bow.

MisterXMedia's blog reads like I'd imagine one of the journals from Se7en to read. It's fascinating stuff, made even more so by how the comments section is either comprised of gullible fools who eat the shit he's shoveling, or, perhaps more troubling, populated by MisterXMedia conversing with himself.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why is day-night cycle "next-gen" though? (but drivatar is not) That seem to be arbitrary definition of what is next gen and what is not.

The original Forza had drivatars in 2005.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drivatar/forza.aspx

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

The original Forza had drivatars in 2005.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drivatar/forza.aspx

Hilarious irony in that post

Nobody ever said that Day-Night Cycles were inherently next-gen, but he went out of his way to mention something that specifically was current-gen as a next-gen feature.

Oops! Reading comprehension and remembrence failure!

 

[eddfromtheriver]

Something about the deja vu of this argument from last gen bugging you? I don't mean to be snide...just asking.

New member ey?... you're not making a very bright first impression...

 

[Glorified G]

Are you suggesting that if XO dropped their FPS to 30 like DC has done they wouldn't be able to deliver a comparable visual effect? Seems like clearly the DC team made a significant tradeoff. Even on 50% more powerful hardware...

Seriously? That's what you got from that posts? It's like some people are on console warrior defense mode 24/7. Nothing in that post indicated what Turn10 could or couldn't do.

 

[JaggedSac]

I read that blog on the daily just to see his house of cards fall on him.

And herein lies why he does it.

 

[SwiftDeath]

New member ey?... you're not making a very bright first impression...

Honestly I'm surprised he hasn't posted up til now

We've been talking in circles about this for months now

 

[clickclack]

New member ey?... you're not making a very bright first impression...

This may come as a surprise to you...but...I didn't join to please you.

Just saying!

 

[cyberheater]

I read that blog on the daily just to see his house of cards fall on him.

I wonder if he posts on GAF. He certainly lurks here.

 

[clickclack]

Honestly I'm surprised he hasn't posted up til now

We've been talking in circles about this for months now

I've been reading on and off for a few years...I go in spurts...This topic however I've been reading for a few days and simply got irritated. Perhaps the reason for the inappropriate outburst. It's all to much...

Although I'd be lying if I didn't say I learned quite a bit in this thread...For those that are getting the PS4...hopefully it will be epic and everyone has an awesome time with it. Personally I'm getting XO and can't wait to unwrap it and just play...

 

[Osiris]

*checks join date*

Yup, end of June... now how did I know that was going to be the case.

 

[clickclack]

*checks join date*

Yup, end of June... now how did I know that was going to be the case.

Yep...not possible to read without joining...