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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)

It is known photomode swaps the car models, bumps the AF, and AA but where's this added reflection samples? Are you confusing a clearer image with higher quality reflection samples? And what's "ect."? Are you trying to artificially inflate what photomode adds?

No. I am just writing "etc." for things that I cannot necessarily put into words as to why they are different or are just marginally improved.

The texture on the bridge is better, and not just better filtered, for example.

The reflections I am talking about can be seen underneath the spoiler fin all across the car body.

Other smaller things: the small bits of water along the side of the road have actually coherent reflections due to increased samples.

Something I have no idea why it is different: the specular reflection in the rear lights.
 

Coroner

Banned
Interesting to see all the things photomode adds: more reflection samples, AF, super sample image quality, etc.

Didn't notice the reflections. Nice one.

Even without this anti aliasing issue, games should never be compared or judged using still shots. It's all about movement.

On the NFS subject, I really enjoy this overloaded filtery look. In fact, I'm somewhat trying to replicate it on Dirt Rally, using Reshade.

http://abload.de/img/drt2015-11-0818-18-07n6soj.jpg

I think it looks great, except for the pop-ins here and there. Does it look better than DC? Only playing to know,
which I'll not do because of this insistence in using stupid DRMs.

That looks great but it's a shame you can't have that kind of look without also having the vaseline effect.
 

Afro

Member
x-post, but I really need to see NFS w/ the grain removed. no mod for that yet? would look stunning.

edit: not on PC yet, nvm
 

pixelbox

Member
No. I am just writing "etc." for things that I cannot necessarily put into words as to why they are different or are just marginally improved.

The texture on the bridge is better, and not just better filtered, for example.

The reflections I am talking about can be seen underneath the spoiler fin all across the car body.

Other smaller things: the small bits of water along the side of the road have actually coherent reflections due to increased samples.

Something I have no idea why it is different: the specular reflection in the rear lights.
You're absolutely right. Sorry for the harsh undertones, I just don't like hyperbole and I was on a roll. Now that you mention it what I think is going on is increased LOD and higher resolution for effects.
 

Afro

Member
That looks great but it's a shame you can't have that kind of look without also having the vaseline effect.

Here's a quick shot I just took for you (didn't downsample). Pure gameplay. 1080p + 2x MSAA, ultra settings w/ advanced blending.

Not terrible for an old engine. Still in early access, too. Driveclub obviously annihilates it. Just wanted to post it for reference purposes.
310560_2015-11-08_00083ljx.jpg

edit: game obviously looks clean downsampled. [link] [link]
 

HTupolev

Member
The photomode version has reflections that aren't cascading (for lack of a better word) under the spoiler and also reflect the environment along the left top-side of the car whereas the normal version reflects what appears to be a completely different general white 'mountain'?
I think the photomode accumulation is just switching to a more accurate SSR model. All that's happening in the gameplay picture is the body is reflecting what's on the top of the spoiler. If you use this car in game and it gets damaged, you can see the top-of-spoiler scratches vertically projected onto the body, an artifact which fades away when the photomode progress bar starts to fill.

If your game had a highly accurate real time GI, that would not be the case tbh.

BUt that shit is exepnsive.
The big issue with these shots is the poor direct illumination, actually. Basically everything in that background is flat-out unshadowed. (Some of the major details, such as the bridge, will start casting shadows if you use photomode to zoom in on that area.)

This is probably the main reason that people accuse DC of looking poor under direct sun.

edit: In case of the "it's the angle of the sun and real life also looks dull" argument, I took these two shots from the same moment with different levels of zoom:

 

Shaneus

Member
I think the photomode accumulation is just switching to a more accurate SSR model. All that's happening in the gameplay picture is the body is reflecting what's on the top of the spoiler. If you use this car in game and it gets damaged, you can see the top-of-spoiler scratches vertically projected onto the body, an artifact which fades away when the photomode progress bar starts to fill.


The big issue with these shots is the poor direct illumination, actually. Basically everything in that background is flat-out unshadowed. (Some of the major details, such as the bridge, will start casting shadows if you use photomode to zoom in on that area.)

This is probably the main reason that people accuse DC of looking poor under direct sun.

edit: In case of the "it's the angle of the sun and real life also looks dull" argument, I took these two shots from the same moment with different levels of zoom:
Ahhh... that's really interesting, I never picked up on the lack of shadowing in the distance. I have noticed that the LOD of shadows as it changes in DC is really obvious, especially during the flyovers at the start of a race. You can see as the camera gets closer to the ground, the shadows on things like trees change detail drastically.

I wonder if there's some way long-distance shadowing could be somehow faked to give the distance more depth?
 

pixelbox

Member
Ahhh... that's really interesting, I never picked up on the lack of shadowing in the distance. I have noticed that the LOD of shadows as it changes in DC is really obvious, especially during the flyovers at the start of a race. You can see as the camera gets closer to the ground, the shadows on things like trees change detail drastically.

I wonder if there's some way long-distance shadowing could be somehow faked to give the distance more depth?

Maybe with AO for now which I don't think DC has. It would have been nice to see what games could have been created with a 4 PPU 32 SPU cpu core... :(
 

Coroner

Banned
Here's a quick shot I just took for you (didn't downsample). Pure gameplay. 1080p + 2x MSAA, ultra settings w/ advanced blending.

Not terrible for an old engine. Still in early access, too. Driveclub obviously annihilates it. Just wanted to post it for reference purposes.


edit: game obviously looks clean downsampled. [link] [link]

I was just talking about his reshade thingy, the game its self has awesome IQ. I play at 1080p 4x MSAA, haven't quite got the grunt for downsampling without dropping below 60.
 

HTupolev

Member
Shadow and light 'information'.
It's entirely possible to sample shadows when rendering transparent layers as if they were opaque surfaces. And going somewhat simpler, games have done stuff like sampling the lightmap once per transparent layer to give them vaguely-correct ambient color since the dawn of time, but of course GT5 and GT6 go more complex than this.

Although, I'd like to know more about what exactly GT6 is doing. It's got high-resolution geometry awareness (unlike GT5's low-res smoke/dust), but its lighting+shading is extremely "pixelated", and in a clearly depth-cascaded way (edit: I think I was seeing things, disregard everything). I actually wouldn't be surprised if they're carrying out those operations in something along the lines of a low-res froxel structure and blending the results into the color buffer according to the z-buffer, or something. I haven't the foggiest idea of how feasible that would be though (might be unfeasible to get anything resembling sufficient z-resolution).
 

pixelbox

Member
It's entirely possible to sample shadows when rendering transparent layers as if they were opaque surfaces. And going somewhat simpler, games have done stuff like sampling the lightmap once per transparent layer to give them vaguely-correct ambient color since the dawn of time, but of course GT5 and GT6 go more complex than this.

Although, I'd like to know more about what exactly GT6 is doing. It's got high-resolution geometry awareness (unlike GT5's low-res smoke/dust), but its lighting+shading is extremely "pixelated", and in a clearly depth-cascaded way. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they're carrying out those operations in something along the lines of a low-res froxel structure and blending the results into the color buffer according to the z-buffer, or something. I haven't the foggiest idea of how feasible that would be though.
I believe it's done the same way as Motorstorm apocalypse:

"We've always used lower resolution buffers for our particle rendering, but this time round we added geometry aware up-sampling to virtually eliminate the haloing of particles around solid objects that you would sometimes see."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-motorstorm-apocalypse-tech-interview

These guys are beasts!
 

HTupolev

Member
I'm definitely leaning toward just low-res alpha layers, although at the very least it's a whacky implementation.
I'm actually seeing things like low-res transparency rectangles "z-fight" with pieces of nearer opaque geometry whose profiles are skinny in screen-space, and transparencies sometimes failing to render behind skinny slots in wide geometry.
 

Apex

Member
If noone cared about the real-time reflections in videogames don't being real ray-traced rays and just a "hack" to simulate the effect in real-time, I don't see the point to discuss the volumetric effects in GT because aren't being rendered at the highest level to negate the validity of the effect. I don't think anyone is expecting cgi effects in a PS3, it does visually what is suppossed to do in a volumetric way and is a step further than the implementation seen in other games, even in the current gen, so at this time the techniques used would not make a difference per the discussion topic.
 
If noone cared about the real-time reflections in videogames don't being real ray-traced rays and just a "hack" to simulate the effect in real-time, I don't see the point to discuss the volumetric effects in GT because aren't being rendered at the highest level to negate the validity of the effect. I don't think anyone is expecting cgi effects in a PS3, it does visually what is suppossed to do in a volumetric way and is a step further than the implementation seen in other games, even in the current gen, so at this time the techniques used would not make a difference per the discussion topic.

I think being "particular" in a graphics thread is quite fruitful for cross-game comparisons and building a lexicon of descriptive / specific words.

Using the term "volumetric" correctly seems like a step in that direction.
 

Apex

Member
I think being "particular" in a graphics thread is quite fruitful for cross-game comparisons and building a lexicon of descriptive / specific words.

Using the term "volumetric" correctly seems like a step in that direction.
The techniques can be discussed, guessed, etc at low level of course, but if these semantics are focused to negate the name of the effect seen in GT is ridiculous.
 

DD

Member
Here's a quick shot I just took for you (didn't downsample). Pure gameplay. 1080p + 2x MSAA, ultra settings w/ advanced blending.

Not terrible for an old engine. Still in early access, too. Driveclub obviously annihilates it. Just wanted to post it for reference purposes.


edit: game obviously looks clean downsampled. [link] [link]

I think that under certain conditions, in the heat of the moment, Dirt Rally sometimes feels like the real thing. Of course that if you stop the car you'll see all the things that you don't notice while playing. But sometimes it feels magical. Greece is where it happens the most.
 

pixelbox

Member
I'm definitely leaning toward just low-res alpha layers, although at the very least it's a whacky implementation.
I'm actually seeing things like low-res transparency rectangles "z-fight" with pieces of nearer opaque geometry whose profiles are skinny in screen-space, and transparencies sometimes failing to render behind skinny slots in wide geometry.

Now I'm not an expert on this as it's starting to rise above my head but I did notice the cascading "slots" with-in the smoke. Funny thing is I didn't notice it in MS:A.
 

pixelbox

Member
If noone cared about the real-time reflections in videogames don't being real ray-traced rays and just a "hack" to simulate the effect in real-time, I don't see the point to discuss the volumetric effects in GT because aren't being rendered at the highest level to negate the validity of the effect. I don't think anyone is expecting cgi effects in a PS3, it does visually what is suppossed to do in a volumetric way and is a step further than the implementation seen in other games, even in the current gen, so at this time the techniques used would not make a difference per the discussion topic.

I never understood the downplaying of sprite in DC. It was intelligently uses in tasteful amounts; to the point of it being barely noticed. You had to go out of your way to see them. If a technique is that hard to determine then the DEVs are doing their jobs.
 

HTupolev

Member
If noone cared about the real-time reflections in videogames don't being real ray-traced rays and just a "hack" to simulate the effect in real-time
I'm not seeing how that's a valid analogy.

First, using "ray-traced rays" to refer to what's going on in high-quality SSR implementations isn't really inaccurate. It's just tracing rays in screen-space rather than world-space, which for the most part nobody is being dishonest about.
Second, we do care. We discuss planar reflections versus SSR, the way each were implemented in a particular case, the benefits and drawbacks of each method, etc.

I don't see the point to discuss the volumetric effects in GT because aren't being rendered at the highest level to negate the validity of the effect.
The point isn't to say GT6's graphics suck.

The point is that the transparencies themselves aren't fundamentally being handled as volumetrics. That's not a knock on GT6; the volumetric methods in use right now don't really work for these kinds of billowing effects, and the options that would work require substantial memory and processing overhead that the PS3 doesn't really have. PD used alpha billboards because they aren't idiots.

so at this time the techniques used would not make a difference per the discussion topic.
Yes they would. For example, sparse assortments of billboard sprites have instabilities (resulting from their extremely camera-dependent orientation) in how they pick up lighting that tend to be avoided by volumetric implementations. Regardless of what everyone else is doing, it makes a difference.
 

pixelbox

Member
I'm not seeing how that's a valid analogy.

First, using "ray-traced rays" to refer to what's going on in high-quality SSR implementations isn't really inaccurate. It's just tracing rays in screen-space rather than world-space, which for the most part nobody is being dishonest about.
Second, we do care. We discuss planar reflections versus SSR, the way each were implemented in a particular case, the benefits and drawbacks of each method, etc.


The point isn't to say GT6's graphics suck.

The point is that the transparencies themselves aren't fundamentally being handled as volumetrics. That's not a knock on GT6; the volumetric methods in use right now don't really work for these kinds of billowing effects, and the options that would work require substantial memory and processing overhead that the PS3 doesn't really have. PD used alpha billboards because they aren't idiots.


Yes they would. For example, sparse assortments of billboard sprites have instabilities (resulting from their extremely camera-dependent orientation) in how they pick up lighting that tend to be avoided by volumetric implementations. Regardless of what everyone else is doing, it makes a difference.

I think that post was directed towards Dictator93.
 

Sebmugi

Member
tweet by PR "There is still plenty we can do. We've learned a lot about the hardware since launch." It's only a beginning ^^
 

GrayFoxBH

Member
That's the graphical improvement Rushy promised? I mean, it's nice and all, but it's just for one track, and we won't even be able to see it while playing. I was expecting something more important than that, like fog effects or some improvements on the IQ, like a better AA solution or AF... :c

Specially AF.
 

KRaZyAmmo

Member
*S2k gif and pics from NFS*

Your shots look good but I think the game has too much grain filter on. If they lowered that down I think the screenshots could look even better (maybe have better IQ and AA). But like the screenshot below sometimes the grain filter is too much and isn't very nice to look at. I still think IQ wise in both gameplay and screenshot wise Driveclub and Forza Horizon 2 are the best.
GeEd0gN.jpg
 
They did, but they've done that and more, pretty much short of Burnout Paradise, this is some of the best support I've seen, ESPECIALLY when it comes to listening to the communities and their requests etc.

Examples of the new effect from the Console screenshot thread by dumb

Nice, didn't realise it was already in.

That's correct, Self Shadowing is the new element.

On the topic of POM, do you have any insight into a little "flaw" it has? (Not just in DC, in general)

Why do the edges of POM materials have a stretched/blurry look as if it's actually ~10 copies of a 2D material stacked on top of each other? Is it because it's essentially stretching the texture and using it at the sides?

Example in a UE4 picture here if you don't get the way I worded it. Edge of each pebble, not the overall POM mesh.
 

Sky Saw

Banned
They did, but they've done that and more, pretty much short of Burnout Paradise, this is some of the best support I've seen, ESPECIALLY when it comes to listening to the communities and their requests etc.

Examples of the new effect from the Console screenshot thread by dumb

Fair enough, I haven't really kept up with the game even though I own it. Just glad I missed all of that launch stuff.
 
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