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Official statement from Koei Tecmo Games regarding DEAD OR ALIVE Xtreme 3

DoA5:LR is a fighting game that has sexy costume DLC.
DoAX3 exists pretty much for the sole purpose of ogling and objectifying women, something you acknowledge as well.
You don't see how the context of the two games might change how Koei Tecmo views the potential backlash they'd receive for bringing each game to the west?

And I've never heard of Deception 4. I haven't heard of a ton of localized games that had the objectification of women or similar content. Most people who play videogames have heard of the Dead or Alive series.
It's a matter of scale.

That just makes DOA 5 all the worse: if it's a serious fighter, why so much emphasis on sex? That's the one people critic and slam, as the fanservice is seemingly out of place.

But happy fun beach bikini time: the game? It is, what it is, and the series really doesn't draw that much ire. It' a niche series that takes the fanservice to new levels, but it's honest about it.

Deception 4, aka Tecmo's Deception 4, is well, a tecmo game, with just as out of place, ridiculous fanservice, that draws little more than a peep. It apparently did well enough to get a stand alone expansion, which was onsale this last weekend on PSN.

People know what DOA is about, and honestly, came to terms with it long ago. It's always been about sexy women, hell, it made breast bounce popular. The third entry in a sexy spinoff franchise isn't going to damage their image anymore then the company other games have.
 
That just makes DOA 5 all the worse: if it's a serious fighter, why so much emphasis on sex? That's the one people critic and slam, as the fanservice is seemingly out of place.

Going to quote a thing from a Medium post I made about this a while back, if only because it's a pain to retype it succinctly.

Dead or Alive 5 was announced with a trailer of Ryu Hayabusa and friendly rival Hayate battling on a Tokyo rooftop. This confused many people, wondering why Koei Tecmo and Team Ninja were revealing their famous fanservice fighter with two male ninjas and focusing on the game’s battle system. Forums began discussing why Team Ninja was not using the general series protagonists of Kasumi and Ayane, buxom half-sister ninjas, to reveal their new game. Soon, Team Ninja revealed their awkward new slogan for the game, “I’m a Fighter,” emblazoned on all the advertising and pictures of their fighters. Along with this, they revealed Mila, an attractive MMA fighter whose focus was fighting first and all else second. While clearly designed to be pretty, Mila did not match the barbie doll looks of the rest of the cast, and could have fit in just as well in Street Fighter as she did in Dead or Alive. Team Ninja, it seems, wanted Dead or Alive to be taken seriously.

It didn’t work.

While most people agree that Dead or Alive 5 is the best the series has ever been, sales did not follow through. Koei Tecmo was making changes to the series to pursue the eSports scene, an arena that eluded Dead or Alive despite relative popularity. The rise of streaming has made fighting games into evergreen titles, constantly in the public eye through tournaments and celebrity streamers, and Tecmo Koei wanted a piece of that. They even included a ticker in Dead or Alive 5’s home screen, advertising every small tournament that featured Dead or Alive 5 with the kind of hope and earnestness that evokes a kind of sad smile it never worked out for them. Koei Tecmo decided to institute their Plan B, lean into its worst tendencies.

The DOA community was having a similar crisis of conscience at the time. While DOA5 was incredibly fun to play, and very much could become a tournament-viable game, the specter of creepy sexuality that hung over it was still there. If they wanted the game to be taken seriously, they had to do what very few fighting games resort to: they banned almost half the costumes in the game for tournaments. A lot of the community, especially the parts that liked DOA as a game but also liked the fanservice, hated this decision and argued against it. The community started to tear itself apart over whether legitimizing the game was worth losing their identity.

Koei Tecmo, having failed at the eSports strategy, was now pouring out Dead or Alive 5 DLC through every orifice (and for every orifice). Dozens of costume packs that were the full price of games themselves were released — Christmas packs, football packs, Halloween packs, dress packs, bikini packs; if you have a fetish, Koei Tecmo was more than willing to cater to it. They released DLC characters Marie Rose (an 18 year-old maid that looked 14), Nyotengu (a female version of former final boss Tengu, now humanoid and with large breasts), and Honoka (another 18 year-old with giant breasts and a child-like personality), all three of which became some of the most popular characters in the series according to DOAX3’s character polls. After a brief stint of trying to change their reputation, the creators of DOA now chose to revel in it.

9wBtFOQ.jpg

And this is on sale for Thanksgiving.

It is this context that birthed DOAX3. The extensive whale hunting that found its genesis in Dead or Alive 5 lead naturally to Dead or Alive Xtreme 3, where they could sell expensive physical items along with the game to the audience that happily buys these things, damn the expense. Where Dead or Alive tried and failed to be taken seriously, Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 is the admission that the experiment is not worth the opportunity cost when there is money to be made with what they know works.
 
That just makes DOA 5 all the worse: if it's a serious fighter, why so much emphasis on sex? That's the one people critic and slam, as the fanservice is seemingly out of place.

But happy fun beach bikini time: the game? It is, what it is, and the series really doesn't draw that much ire. It' a niche series that takes the fanservice to new levels, but it's honest about it.

Deception 4, aka Tecmo's Deception 4, is well, a tecmo game, with just as out of place, ridiculous fanservice, that draws little more than a peep. It apparently did well enough to get a stand alone expansion, which was onsale this last weekend on PSN.

People know what DOA is about, and honestly, came to terms with it long ago. It's always been about sexy women, hell, it made breast bounce popular. The third entry in a sexy spinoff franchise isn't going to damage their image anymore then the company other games have.

So, because DoA5:LR has sexualized costumes as a feature tacked onto a serious fighting game, it's actually more likely to be slammed by critics of the objectified portrayal of women in the videogames than a game where sexualized costumes is the feature?
That makes sense to you?
 

Roni

Gold Member
In other circumstances a statement like that from any company would be dismissed as PR spin to try and salvage public perception.

In this thread, it's the truth that sets the record straight. What happened to not believing in the establishment and big business, GAF?
 
So, because DoA5:LR has sexualized costumes as a feature tacked onto a serious fighting game, it's actually more likely to be slammed by critics of the objectified portrayal of women in the videogames than a game where sexualized costumes is the feature?
That makes sense to you?

Yes, indeed it does.

You see, the problem has been out of place sexyness, not sexyness in general. Everyone expects a beach themed game to be sexy, beaches are.

But one doesn't expect a fighting game to be the same way, different genres, different expectations.

You can't really bash a beach sexy fun time game for being what it is, because it doesn't try to hide or justify anything. It's right there, front and present, take it or leave it.

But the fighting game? What purpose does it serve? Is it a better fighter because the girls can battle in lingerie, hot springs towels, swimwear, etc? Not really no, hell, it holds it back form being a major esports title.

That's why folks have been pretty silent about DOAX 3, there just isn't that much to say about it.
 

Toxi

Banned
Going to quote a thing from a Medium post I made about this a while back, if only because it's a pain to retype it succinctly.
Great write-up; I knew about how Dead or Alive 5's marketing was a colossal failure, but I didn't realize they dipped so heavily into the costume DLC. Do you have a link to the whole post?
 

RMI

Banned
Going to quote a thing from a Medium post I made about this a while back, if only because it's a pain to retype it succinctly.

good post. Mila is my favorite character in the game. I think she has a really cool design that's both strong and sexy. It's a shame she wasn't popular enough to make it into the first batch of DOAX3 characters.
 
Yes, indeed it does.

You see, the problem has been out of place sexyness, not sexyness in general. Everyone expects a beach themed game to be sexy, beaches are.

But one doesn't expect a fighting game to be the same way, different genres, different expectations.

You can't really bash a beach sexy fun time game for being what it is, because it doesn't try to hide or justify anything. It's right there, front and present, take it or leave it.

But the fighting game? What purpose does it serve? Is it a better fighter because the girls can battle in lingerie, hot springs towels, swimwear, etc? Not really no, hell, it holds it back form being a major esports title.

That's why folks have been pretty silent about DOAX 3, there just isn't that much to say about it.

Since when was the measure for how sexually objectifying a game is rooted in how much they tried to hide it?

People were pretty silent about DoAX3, but that's because it hadn't come out in the west. People have always been pretty vocal about the rest of the DoAX series.
 
Great write-up; I knew about how Dead or Alive 5's marketing was a colossal failure, but I didn't realize they dipped so heavily into the costume DLC. Do you have a link to the whole post?
Go look up the DLC for DoA5:LR right now. When Last Round came out on PS4 and Xbone the entire new DLC section was nothing but LR DLC.
good post. Mila is my favorite character in the game. I think she has a really cool design that's both strong and sexy. It's a shame she wasn't popular enough to make it into the first batch of DOAX3 characters.

The real crime. Mila was special.
 
Since when was the measure for how sexually objectifying a game is rooted in how much they tried to hide it?

People were pretty silent about DoAX3, but that's because it hadn't come out in the west. People have always been pretty vocal about the rest of the DoAX series.

As if it takes a US release to comment on a game. It's mere existence is enough to comment on it.

And yet, they were largely silent. Now why is that?

And yes, how much they try to sideline or hide it is the entire root of the modern critics about sexuality and sexism in games. This has been obvious since day one.
 
First and foremost, it says that because the videogame industry is becoming a more globalized market that it doesn't make sense to not localize a game to specific regions. It doesn't take very much thought to debunk that one: How many eroges and other sexually-objectifying games get made in Japan go unnoticed while things like the changes to Elizabeth in Bioshock: Infinite cause a big news surge? The industry is more globalized, yes, but to say that the globalization is completely dominant or that regional differences in markets are unimportant is a bit overreaching.

Unimportant in the case of Koei Tecmo releasing their game on Western shores. Koei Tecmo is not a small Japanese developer publisher Haikuo Soft, Spicy Tales, or the like. Hell, even those titles are heading to our shores with far, far more frequency.

Secondly, the conclusions that the article draws are pretty much baseless.
Koei Tecmo's lack of a release in a region is a marketing ploy to suck money out of the pockets of outraged gamers buying the game out of spite? Really? Is there ANY data to suggest that people buying the game out of spite would be more profitable than the sales they would get from releasing it normally? Play-Asia's ploy of exploiting those people by calling out SJWs is a thing I can believe, because they specifically only benefit from people ordering the imports, but what data exists to support the idea that Koei Tecmo believes that losing sales to generate spite-sales is profitable?

None. Just bringing up the idea as an option.

The other conclusion that it draws is that Koei Tecmo simply doesn't care. Which... is pretty lazy as far as a conclusion goes. A big company isn't an indecisive student. They're a business. If they localize or don't localize something, there's a reason to it.

The article admits that the reason is most likely not economic, and then says that the reason isn't societal because there hasn't been any recent controversy about the Dead or Alive specifically. A franchise that is well-known and consistently pointed to as a series that has problems with its objectified portrayal of women.

It then points at the release of risque titles that it admits are much smaller and more niche as proof that it can't be the general climate of the western videogame industry in general, which, given the fact that they are smaller and more niche, should be surprising to nobody. Scale is important when it comes to factoring how bad of a reaction there might be to a particular product.

No, the article admits that Koei Tecmo has released games that theoretically could've sold less than a potential DOAX3 release. Hell, I even said "I could be wrong" about DOAX3 potentially selling more. The "doesn't care" option clearly states:

They've assumed it's not even worth offering as a digital release in North America. The Asian version of Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 will have English as an option and the PlayStation 4 is region-free. Import the game and you'll have no issues playing it. Perhaps the company thinks that's enough for the appreciable user base.

That's an economic reason for a lack of release. An easily importable Asian release covers the userbase that Koei Tecmo believes the game has in our region. They save on any additional localization/certification costs and still make money on the game.

A big, well-known title that is specifically known for the objectification of women not being released in the west due to the change in climate towards better and more equal treatment of women in the medium still seems like the most reasonable conclusion to me. Combined with the very specific wording of the official statement, and I don't really see how you could argue against it.

The official statement literally says "Hey, that original post only reflects the poster's opinion, not Koei Tecmo's."

The fact that Keoi Tecmo would skip the release of DOAX3 due to negative press, was and is asinine. It's not like they've been hiding the costumes in DOA5: LR and that content is no worse than anything in DOAX3.

I love how folks keep quoting this article when it's been argued before on this very forum the games he listed don't merit any mass Critism. He hasn't even played Nights of Azure. All he did was pulled the most controversial of images possible to make his point. Something another poster around here will also do without doing actual merited research.

Nether does DOA really. The image bandied about focusing on all the criticism has articles for years ago and a few tweets. The most visible thing that's happened to the series recently is this situation.

Once again, the point isn't that the games are SMUT INCARNATE, it's that if someone was going to criticize KT releases, there's plenty of other content to criticize. DOAX3 doesn't exist on this island alone. Seeing as I just got done previewing Blade & Soul, a major release for NCSoft heading West that has some rather risque content, that again no one has particularly said anything about, I find it odd that people keep trying to carve out a niche that only DOAX3 exists in.
 
As if it takes a US release to comment on a game. It's mere existence is enough to comment on it.

And yet, they were largely silent. Now why is that?

And yes, how much they try to sideline or hide it is the entire root of the modern critics about sexuality and sexism in games. This has been obvious since day one.

When the context of the discussion is the reaction from a western audience towards the game and how it fits within the climate of the western videogame industry, whether or not the game is released in the west is a pretty important factor.

Lolicon eroges exist in Japan.
You can imagine that if they were published, sex scenes and all, in the US, there would be a pretty big outrage. These games are not localized to the west.
Yet, there is currently no big outrage over these lolicon eroges.
I guarantee you it is not because people accept them due to how forthright they are about their content.

And where are you getting the idea that how much they try to sideline or hide sexism in videogames is the problem? I am genuinely curious, as I've never seen a single article or opinion piece criticizing the mainline Dead or Alive series over the Xtreme spinoff on the basis of "Oh, well, sexy beach games are supposed to be sexy!"
 
When the context of the discussion is the reaction from a western audience towards the game and how it fits within the climate of the western videogame industry, whether or not the game is released in the west is a pretty important factor.

Lolicon eroges exist in Japan.
You can imagine that if they were published, sex scenes and all, in the US, there would be a pretty big outrage. These games are not localized to the west.
Yet, there is currently no big outrage over these lolicon eroges.
I guarantee you it is not because people accept them due to how forthright they are about their content.

And where are you getting the idea that how much they try to sideline or hide sexism in videogames is the problem? I am genuinely curious, as I've never seen a single article or opinion piece criticizing the mainline Dead or Alive series over the Xtreme spinoff on the basis of "Oh, well, sexy beach games are supposed to be sexy!"

Because those games are largly unknown, hard to say that about part three of a series where three previous games were released with little fuss.

And where it's main series has been pumping out sexy DLC at a premium for years now.

Apples to oranges, really.
 
Unimportant in the case of Koei Tecmo releasing their game on Western shores. Koei Tecmo is not a small Japanese developer publisher Haikuo Soft, Spicy Tales, or the like. Hell, even those titles are heading to our shores with far, far more frequency.

I don't know if you simply misunderstood what I was getting at or if I'm not understanding what you're trying to say there.

The part of the article that I was referring to with that bit had a similar argument to the person I addressed above, surrounding the idea that "it already existed and therefore people could already criticize it, so it wouldn't matter if they released it to the west anyway," which I just said doesn't make any sense to me.
There's a counterargument that other games that have similar or worse content have already been localized, but I address that when I talk about the scale of the release.

If you understood me perfectly, then I'd be very appreciative if you could rephrase what you were trying to say, because I don't quite get it, sorry.

None. Just bringing up the idea as an option.
Fair enough, I guess.

No, the article admits that Koei Tecmo has released games that theoretically could've sold less than a potential DOAX3 release. Hell, I even said "I could be wrong" about DOAX3 potentially selling more. The "doesn't care" option clearly states:

That's an economic reason for a lack of release. An easily importable Asian release covers the userbase that Koei Tecmo believes the game has in our region. They save on any additional localization/certification costs and still make money on the game.
There's a quote from Koei Tecmo that specifically states the DoA5:LR fanbase significantly expanded on Xbone and PS4, leading to the DLC being considered a great success.
I'd like to know what data you've found that leads you to so strongly believe that Koei Tecmo's decision to not bring the game to the west is due to them believing that the userbase is too small for a full-blown release.

The official statement literally says "Hey, that original post only reflects the poster's opinion, not Koei Tecmo's."
It also says they're trying to respect different global audiences.
I'm interested in how you interpret that wording.

The fact that Keoi Tecmo would skip the release of DOAX3 due to negative press, was and is asinine. It's not like they've been hiding the costumes in DOA5: LR and that content is no worse than anything in DOAX3.
Splitting hairs, I know, but I specifically subscribe to the idea that Koei Tecmo is skipping the release of DoAX3 in the west due to a perceived potential for negative press. Slight difference, but it matters.

And while the content isn't worse than anything in DoA5:LR, which I will reiterate the sales of which they considered to be a great success, the context of it is very much so different.
 
Going to quote a thing from a Medium post I made about this a while back, if only because it's a pain to retype it succinctly.
DLC that adds up to over 400 bucks even after a sale is the real outrage here.

Also not surprised K-T made an official statement at this point, this shit was just getting confusing and violent to follow.
 
Going to quote a thing from a Medium post I made about this a while back, if only because it's a pain to retype it succinctly.

Team Ninja went back on the serious approach before the game was even released. They mentioned early on that they were going to dial back the sexuality, but it was immediately met with a negative response from longtime fans. So they shifted right then and there before it even launched.

As far as the eSport push goes. 3D fighters in general have a hard time finding their footing in that arena, particularly in the west. I don't think anyone has really ever been able to put a finger on exactly what the issue is, but they have a much more difficult time fitting in than the next big fighter thats gameplay is played on a 2D plane. No one knows what will happen with Tekken 7 in terms of eSports while Street Fighter V is pretty much already locked in as being the next big thing.

But getting away from that, the banning of the costumes was an interesting moment. I can't remember who it was (although I think it was Sp00ky) that pointed out how ridiculous it was that the community thought the costumes were holding the game back from making it big as opposed to how horrendous the commentary is for the games. Tekken has Aris, Mortal Kombat has Aris, Tom Brady, Yipes etc., Marvel has Yipes, SkiSonic, Persia and so, Smash has D1, and Street Fighter basically has everyone. DoA really doesn't have anyone and as such it makes watching the whole event dull. Commentators can make a break a game. This was notable in 2014 at EVO when Hellpockets was banned from commentating KoFXIII because he used profanity the previous year. The commentary was heavily criticized for being terrible and basically ruined the whole tournament for that game.
 
Team Ninja went back on the serious approach before the game was even released. They mentioned early on that they were going to dial back the sexuality, but it was immediately met with a negative response from longtime fans. So they shifted right then and there before it even launched.

As far as the eSport push goes. 3D fighters in general have a hard time finding their footing in that arena, particularly in the west. I don't think anyone has really ever been able to put a finger on exactly what the issue is, but they have a much more difficult time fitting in than the next big fighter thats gameplay is played on a 2D plane. No one knows what will happen with Tekken 7 in terms of eSports while Street Fighter V is pretty much already locked in as being the next big thing.

But getting away from that, the banning of the costumes was an interesting moment. I can't remember who it was (although I think it was Sp00ky) that pointed out how ridiculous it was that the community thought the costumes were holding the game back from making it big as opposed to how horrendous the commentary is for the games. Tekken has Aris, Mortal Kombat has Aris, Tom Brady, Yipes etc., Marvel has Yipes, SkiSonic, Persia and so, Smash has D1, and Street Fighter basically has everyone. DoA really doesn't have anyone and as such it makes watching the whole event dull. Commentators can make a break a game. This was notable in 2014 at EVO when Hellpockets was banned from commentating KoFXIII because he used profanity the previous year. The commentary was heavily criticized for being terrible and basically ruined the whole tournament for that game.

Really, Aris should just commentate everything.
Like 95% of the time he's just absolutely pure gold.
 
People forget that DOA, especially 5 are solid fighting games.

It's just overshadowed by the sexy ladies.



and complete lack of tourney presence


the only thing I've heard about competitive DOA in years is that they banned sexy costumes for fear of being pigeon-holed.
 
Team Ninja went back on the serious approach before the game was even released. They mentioned early on that they were going to dial back the sexuality, but it was immediately met with a negative response from longtime fans. So they shifted right then and there before it even launched.

As far as the eSport push goes. 3D fighters in general have a hard time finding their footing in that arena, particularly in the west. I don't think anyone has really ever been able to put a finger on exactly what the issue is, but they have a much more difficult time fitting in than the next big fighter thats gameplay is played on a 2D plane. No one knows what will happen with Tekken 7 in terms of eSports while Street Fighter V is pretty much already locked in as being the next big thing.

But getting away from that, the banning of the costumes was an interesting moment. I can't remember who it was (although I think it was Sp00ky) that pointed out how ridiculous it was that the community thought the costumes were holding the game back from making it big as opposed to how horrendous the commentary is for the games. Tekken has Aris, Mortal Kombat has Aris, Tom Brady, Yipes etc., Marvel has Yipes, SkiSonic, Persia and so, Smash has D1, and Street Fighter basically has everyone. DoA really doesn't have anyone and as such it makes watching the whole event dull. Commentators can make a break a game. This was notable in 2014 at EVO when Hellpockets was banned from commentating KoFXIII because he used profanity the previous year. The commentary was heavily criticized for being terrible and basically ruined the whole tournament for that game.

Also most of DoA's big named pros like Swoozie and Master all moved on to other fighting games. DoA can't make any no name player famous anymore.
 

Breads

Banned
Maybe it's just me but I think a good time to have written such a non statement was like a week ago. If they wanted to make a statement that matters at this point they'd have to take a hard line stance towards the events themselves instead of being so vague.


The SJWs clearly pressured them into writing this. I bet it was proofread by Anita Sarkeesian herself.

Don't you mean her writer and employer Jonathan Mcintosh?

Yeah, no company that wants to grow wants to get in bed with Gamergaters.

Except for demagoguing (sp?) exporters.
 
Really, Aris should just commentate everything.
Like 95% of the time he's just absolutely pure gold.

Okizeme!

Also most of DoA's big named pros like Swoozie and Master all moved on to other fighting games. DoA can't make any no name player famous anymore.

I know that SonicFox plays around with it, but his brother is the one that seems to take it seriously. But yeah, fighters need well known players as well. It's another place where SF just naturally has a leg up on everyone else.
 

Skilletor

Member
Why do so many people think that the DoAX games are instant money makers? It's a niche spinoff from a fighter that barely sold a million copies in its last iteration. This isn't some guaranteed cash cow they're leaving in Japan.
 

Eolz

Member
and complete lack of tourney presence


the only thing I've heard about competitive DOA in years is that they banned sexy costumes for fear of being pigeon-holed.

I'm pretty sure DOA has a more stable presence (aka big tourneys per year, stable numbers, prizes, etc) than Tekken nowadays (for example). It just isn't marketed as much for the big ones.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
and complete lack of tourney presence


the only thing I've heard about competitive DOA in years is that they banned sexy costumes for fear of being pigeon-holed.

FGC is clannish as hell. Of course you'd hear of that stupid soft ban that did exactly what was it was trying to avoid.
That said, its at many events and has team ninja's complete support which is more than most fighting games. People like to look at Capcom when it's Sony's money doing the talking.
 

cerulily

Member
Going to quote a thing from a Medium post I made about this a while back, if only because it's a pain to retype it succinctly.

Nailed it. DOA5 was the closest the series ever came to being what fighting games are almost required to be... tournament viable. Despite this, they're inexorably beholden to the core audience. The well is tainted, and everyone knew it.

I distinctly remember the original plans had the girl's endowments reduced, but was increased due to fan backlash, as well.
 
Nailed it. DOA5 was the closest the series ever came to being what fighting games are almost required to be... tournament viable. Despite this, they're inexorably beholden to the core audience. The well is tainted, and everyone knew it.

I distinctly remember the original plans had the girl's endowments reduced, but was increased due to fan backlash, as well.

At launch all of Mila's unlockable outfits were MMA gear and shirts and jeans. All of her lewd outfits are DLC. It's almost like she was the test to see how fans would react.
 
There's an argument for the idea that the unchallenged existence of media that objectifies women leads to a normalization of the idea that it's alright to objectify women, and that that thought process bleeds into other aspects of society leading to a subtle and subconscious oppression of women.

It's an argument that isn't without it's faults, and I definitely tend to side more towards the idea that change should come from trying to change the habits of the consumer through raising awareness, as opposed to change coming from putting pressure on the producers to not cater to specific existing markets, but I mean the argument has some value.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I'm highly skeptical of the objectification argument primarily because human beings are highly sexual and social creatures, and objectification definitely applies to both genders. Raising awareness unfortunately does not change certain evolved, biological truths.

I also find the objectification argument to be somewhat insulting to a person's intelligence. Making the argument that porn stars, sexy video games, anime, etc. objectify women is just as silly as saying artificial vaginas for male masturbation objectify women and girls (while ignoring that dildos objectify the male penis). Such arguments appear to assume people can't be trusted to distinguish between sexual fantasy and reality.

I know quite a few happily married couples where each spouse has their own sexual fantasy objects, be it hentai manga/games, dildo collections, conventional pornography, or something else entirely, and unsurprisingly, they all love absolutely everything about their wives/husbands. Human interaction trumps unattainable sexual fantasy, every time.
 
I don't know if you simply misunderstood what I was getting at or if I'm not understanding what you're trying to say there.

The part of the article that I was referring to with that bit had a similar argument to the person I addressed above, surrounding the idea that "it already existed and therefore people could already criticize it, so it wouldn't matter if they released it to the west anyway," which I just said doesn't make any sense to me.

Ah, perhaps I misunderstood your statement.

If you argue that Dead or Alive is a known quantity and that's why it would get more criticism than other releases, than you also have to acknowledge that it's a known quantity to the point that it doesn't need a Western release to invite criticism. That's the global community I'm talking about. Anybody that's going to talk sexual content in relation to DOAX3 will do so regardless of a release here. The lack of Western release doesn't preclude negative press at all. Not in the slightest. Maybe you avoid edge commentary from the CNNs and Fox News, but Polygon, Kotaku, Eurogamer, etc? Nah, none of them (us?) need a Western release to comment on how DOAX3 presents its female characters if we feel that's a problem.

And if it was truly a huge enough issue to stop a full release of title, that commentary would have been levied heavily at many, many other titles this year. Instead, DOA tends to sit alone because it's always been a sexually-charged product. That's not new or novel. People are more likely to write commentary about similar content in much bigger titles, like say Street Fighter V. Even that's been relatively tame and most of the changes have seem to come from internal Capcom, not anything people complained about in articles.

There's a quote from Koei Tecmo that specifically states the DoA5:LR fanbase significantly expanded on Xbone and PS4, leading to the DLC being considered a great success.

I'd like to know what data you've found that leads you to so strongly believe that Koei Tecmo's decision to not bring the game to the west is due to them believing that the userbase is too small for a full-blown release.

DOA5 all told sold 1.5 million copies in its non-F2P iteration. That's across multiple iterations: DOA5, Ultimate, and Last Round. DOAX3 is likely going to get a fraction of those sales, being a spinoff and paid release without DLC.

And as I pointed out in the article, the likelihood of any publically-held game publisher leaving behind a profitable release due to negative press is almost next to nil, especially given the current evidence of reaction to such content.

It also says they're trying to respect different global audiences.
I'm interested in how you interpret that wording.

"Strategizing" is the word I'd focus on. Business strategy is always at the forefront, the PR response softens the blow before getting there.

Splitting hairs, I know, but I specifically subscribe to the idea that Koei Tecmo is skipping the release of DoAX3 in the west due to a perceived potential for negative press. Slight difference, but it matters.

And where did Koei Tecmo see this perceived potential for negative press to the degree that they're forgo a profitable release? You'd need hard, hard evidence to explain that to your shareholders, given that KT is a publicly-held company. You'd need to point them and say, "this is worth us losing out on profits." All signs point to such a backlash not being a problem and honestly, I can't see them making that case to investors.

Of course, we'll find out in late January when they release their 3rd quarter numbers and investors get a chance to ask about the game.

Why do so many people think that the DoAX games are instant money makers? It's a niche spinoff from a fighter that barely sold a million copies in its last iteration. This isn't some guaranteed cash cow they're leaving in Japan.

It's just odd, because it's not like their other titles are burning up the charts. Steam Spy puts Nobunaga's Ambition at around 13,000 owners. I can't figure the console release was far beyond that and my guess is DOAX3 could do at least that much. But I lack Koei Tecmo's internal sales metrics to be more firm on that. Perhaps they used the DOAX3 character poll to gauge interest in the title? Number of respondents, plus or minus, may be the numbers they're working with. It's all guesswork.
 

MeowtroidPrime

Neo Member
I've been trying to read as much of this thread as I can but as quite a bit in the middle went off-topic I'm not quite sure if this got brought up yet: I saw a sentiment earlier in the thread of people claiming that the guy who'd made the comments on Facebook was "silenced" or that he was just voicing the "real opinions" that Koei Tecmo has on the situation with not releasing DOAX3 in the west.

Even if his opinions are shared by other members of the company, that they don't want to incite a conversation about women's portrayal in games (which I highly doubt, mind), in claiming that his opinions do not reflect Koei Tecmo's they've basically straight up said that his stated reasons for the game not coming out in the west aren't the real reasons.

I mean, you can claim that they're LYING to save face or something... but I'm more willing to believe in a company making a reasonable statement than some guy on Facebook whose statements were nonsensical at best, inciteful at worst.
 

Vlaphor

Member
Why do so many people think that the DoAX games are instant money makers? It's a niche spinoff from a fighter that barely sold a million copies in its last iteration. This isn't some guaranteed cash cow they're leaving in Japan.

They've actually sold quite well considering their niche. The DOAX series is at a little over 900,000, and that's only with two main games and one side game. Senran Kagura recently announced they've sold a million copies all together, but that's with four main games and three side games. These games don't need to sell millions and aren't expected to, and this is why they are making a third DOAX game.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Why do so many people think that the DoAX games are instant money makers? It's a niche spinoff from a fighter that barely sold a million copies in its last iteration. This isn't some guaranteed cash cow they're leaving in Japan.

Isn't this the first DoAX game that is going to have an extreme amount of DLC?
 

RM8

Member
Well, now I'm sad that DOA genuinely wanted to be a more serious fighter, and had to backpedal hard because of low sales :(
 
They've actually sold quite well considering their niche. The DOAX series is at a little over 900,000, and that's only with two main games and one side game. Senran Kagura recently announced they've sold a million copies all together, but that's with four main games and three side games. These games don't need to sell millions and aren't expected to, and this is why they are making a third DOAX game.

Honestly, it's hard to use their previous sales as a barometer anyway.

The first one was an Xbox (OG) exclusive. That means, for all intents and purposes, it has no domestic sales to go by, and wasn't exactly selling to a huge userbase overseas.

The second one was originally a 360 exclusive that later got ported to the Vita (lulz). None of these games have ever been positioned properly to get anything resembling a clear picture of their sales potential in Japan or other markets, much less both.

(This is not, of course, to say that they have the hidden potential to be multi-million dollar selling games, just that if they did a modern multi-platform PS4/XB1/PC release it's pretty much a given they would sell better than previous iterations did with extremely poor-fit platform choices.)
 

Demoskinos

Member
Well, now I'm sad that DOA genuinely wanted to be a more serious fighter, and had to backpedal hard because of low sales :(

You can see the shift happen over time. Tbh the vanilla version of DOA 5 was fairly modest about its fan service. Once the re-release happened that is when the DLC really started to jump off. I'd like to see it more in tournaments. Its a fun game to both watch and play. I think its also slightly easier to follow than something like USFIV for casual watchers of FGC streams.
 

Celcius

°Temp. member
Why not just release it as PC-only in the west?
That way it's not on retail shelves and won't have as much media exposure by not being on the PS4, but would still be available for those that want it.
 
Why not just release it as PC-only in the west?
That way it's not on retail shelves and won't have as much media exposure by not being on the PS4, but would still be available for those that want it.

Nude mods. I don't think Tecmo would react to kindly to them.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
Why not just release it as PC-only in the west?
That way it's not on retail shelves and won't have as much media exposure by not being on the PS4, but would still be available for those that want it.

They can also do a psn only release. In fact, I don't see your point at all.
 
There are more T&A fanservice games being localized than ever before, some of which are far more legitimately objectionable than this one (hint: discussion of them is banned here), and yet we're really supposed to believe that any publisher is cowering in terror from the SJW army? Give me a fucking break.
 
Going to quote a thing from a Medium post I made about this a while back, if only because it's a pain to retype it succinctly.

Didn't know that they wanted Dead Or Alive 5 to be taken seriously and fans were freaking out about losing the fanservice to have the game be seen as legit. Then catering to fanservice whales. Thanks for that.
 
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