Yeah, see this paragraph:
The US gamer article by MH Williams covers why this is unlikely.
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Official statement from Koei Tecmo Games regarding DEAD OR ALIVE Xtreme 3
- Thread starter miku
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Yeah, see this paragraph:
The US gamer article by MH Williams covers why this is unlikely.
JumpCancel
Banned
You're right that there are much more pressing issues, however that example is highly unlikely (along with most meaningful pursuits for "feminists" to tackle), and to get any publicity would be difficult. DOA has always been a trigger topic for some vocal minorities and is much more susceptible to its flames being fanned.
In short it's an easy target that will get public attention.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Has it visibly affected the sales or availability of the series in any way?
JumpCancel
Banned
For the most part no, and I never stated it did.
However, we'll come full circle and say yes to availability as the game (DOAX3) is currently Japan and Asia only, due to KT thinking it doesn't fit with Western audiences (The whole point of this threads topic...)
My original point was that the nature of DOA games with their highly sexualised female cast make them easy targets for groups and minorities, who need extreme examples to cite for misrepresentation of women, sexual exploitation etc.
DesertOfSand
Banned
I read that article, and while it's interesting, it definitely falls short on quite a few points that it makes.
First and foremost, it says that because the videogame industry is becoming a more globalized market that it doesn't make sense to not localize a game to specific regions. It doesn't take very much thought to debunk that one: How many eroges and other sexually-objectifying games get made in Japan go unnoticed while things like the changes to Elizabeth in Bioshock: Infinite cause a big news surge? The industry is more globalized, yes, but to say that the globalization is completely dominant or that regional differences in markets are unimportant is a bit overreaching.
Secondly, the conclusions that the article draws are pretty much baseless.
Koei Tecmo's lack of a release in a region is a marketing ploy to suck money out of the pockets of outraged gamers buying the game out of spite? Really? Is there ANY data to suggest that people buying the game out of spite would be more profitable than the sales they would get from releasing it normally? Play-Asia's ploy of exploiting those people by calling out SJWs is a thing I can believe, because they specifically only benefit from people ordering the imports, but what data exists to support the idea that Koei Tecmo believes that losing sales to generate spite-sales is profitable?
The other conclusion that it draws is that Koei Tecmo simply doesn't care. Which... is pretty lazy as far as a conclusion goes. A big company isn't an indecisive student. They're a business. If they localize or don't localize something, there's a reason to it.
The article admits that the reason is most likely not economic, and then says that the reason isn't societal because there hasn't been any recent controversy about the Dead or Alive specifically. A franchise that is well-known and consistently pointed to as a series that has problems with its objectified portrayal of women.
It then points at the release of risque titles that it admits are much smaller and more niche as proof that it can't be the general climate of the western videogame industry in general, which, given the fact that they are smaller and more niche, should be surprising to nobody. Scale is important when it comes to factoring how bad of a reaction there might be to a particular product.
A big, well-known title that is specifically known for the objectification of women not being released in the west due to the change in climate towards better and more equal treatment of women in the medium still seems like the most reasonable conclusion to me.
Combined with the very specific wording of the official statement, and I don't really see how you could argue against it.
And lastly, you made it seem like my post was about venting against SJWs or something. Given the fact that I specifically went out of my way to address how I believed that SJWs have nothing to do with whether or not the game was released, it makes me think that you saw someone actually discussing feminism in the videogame industry and assumed it was some rant. Which is actually really sad.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Which make the overlap of many of these individuals with at least the online atheist community all the more baffling to me. How can a group that purports to embrace the concept that reality is what it is based upon evidence no matter what you believe be unable to accept the result of a 4 minute google search on a minor topic that was really a private matter that based upon actual facts had no relevance to their interests in any way and therefor really was none of their fucking business?
I've been an atheist my whole life and the last few years have made me not really want to advertise it in a way that living for 39 years in a culturally very religious Southern town never has.
Sorry for the complete derail.
You said
However, it's entirely plausible (and more plausible than other arguments) that KT simply thinks the game won't make a profit or enough of a profit to be worth dedicating the resources to releasing and supporting it outside of Japan and Asia.
So no, it's not "undeniable" that DOAX3 isn't getting a western release because of the current feminist movement in the western video games industry. The slipperiness of the official statement is the usual slipperiness of typical company official statements that can't say anything and won't say anything. To suggest that the official statement is exacting proof of your theory is incorrect.
One could argue the poor performance (critically and financially) of the second game worldwide gives KT an excuse not to release the third game worldwide.
One could argue the design and direction of the game targets the otaku 'whales' willing to spend a lot of money on DLC and merchandise of particular characters featured in the game. Said whales are not in abundance outside of Asia and therefore are not worth sustaining the costs of supporting the product for. (see anime)
One could argue that of the nine characters in the game, seven are Japanese, with one of the remaining two non-Japanese being specifically a lolicon-targeted design. By excluding most of the western-oriented characters, the game itself has limited its appeal to Asia. Therefore it also loses its ability to market characters that would appeal to the western audience more and encourage expenditures on DLC costumes and the like.
Sure, the series is well-known for its sexual objectification. But precisely because it is well-known, if KT has weathered the deluge of criticism before, why start cowering now? Rather, if they got 'bad publicity' it would actually reduce the amount of money they need to market the game, because the bad publicity is free publicity. And DOAX3 is certainly not lying about what it is, so it isn't as if the audience who were going to purchase it day one were suddenly going to not purchase the game because of social media outrage or critique or anything like that. It also benefits from being part of an existing series, which means it's not a rapid and sudden change to what the 'original games' were to something that panders to its audience.
"Respecting and strategizing to support the different global audiences" can mean any number of things and is not restricted to the feminism boogeyman. Keeping your view so narrowly focused on that when there has been no major feminist or social media criticism of the game before this statement was issued is merely projecting your narrative onto the likely myriad of factors KT considered when making the decision about where to release the game.
Regardless of whether or not you were venting against SJWs, holding onto and fixating on the idea that 'feminism' is specifically what prevents the release of this game is just making excuses for people who lack the reasoning to consider the decision process, or making excuses for people who are insistent on making a boogeyman where there is none.
JumpCancel
Banned
Well said dude. You've covered what is essentially every reason for a lack of release in the West. More or likely it's down to most if not all of these factors as I'm sure they were considered.
This thread has actualized. We are finally at peace.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Guys, I'll let you in on a little insider secret.
Big companies like Tecmo Koei release things if they consider it'll make them a considerable amount of money. They don't release things if they consider it's not gonna make enough money in relation to the effort required to put it out (see: opportunity cost).
That's it. Some negative comments on the internet don't mean a thing, especially if they don't come from the potential target audience. Big companies base their decisions on money, not forum wars.
Big companies like Tecmo Koei release things if they consider it'll make them a considerable amount of money. They don't release things if they consider it's not gonna make enough money in relation to the effort required to put it out (see: opportunity cost).
That's it. Some negative comments on the internet don't mean a thing, especially if they don't come from the potential target audience. Big companies base their decisions on money, not forum wars.
Well said dude. You've covered what is essentially every reason for a lack of release in the West. More or likely it's down to most if not all of these factors as I'm sure they were considered.
This thread has actualized. We are finally at peace.
That's a *she.
ftfy.
Nothing describes the plight of the modern gamer better than creating an imaginary enemy that wages an imaginary war against you, because everything is, naturally, about you. Your niche loli otaku game doesn't make it to the west and it's because a shadowy group of people somehow pressured a publisher who's never given a shit before
It's surely not because your niche loli game doesn't sell enough in here, and not because you weren't even going to get the game before you wanted to fight against this evil. Of course, nothing will change your mind because the all-reaching enemy hides all the proof and if you don't fight, 'they' have already somehow won.
It's disgusting how far the idiotic conspiracy mindset has seeped into people.
It's surely not because your niche loli game doesn't sell enough in here, and not because you weren't even going to get the game before you wanted to fight against this evil. Of course, nothing will change your mind because the all-reaching enemy hides all the proof and if you don't fight, 'they' have already somehow won.
It's disgusting how far the idiotic conspiracy mindset has seeped into people.
JumpCancel
Banned
Wasn't this the plot of SPECTRE?
Wooooooooooow.Meanwhile, Marie Rose's VA is PO'd.
Neuromancer
Member
It's a profit deal!
It seems very unlikely to me though that they wouldn't create a profit if they release the game digitally in the west. They're already putting money into translating it anyway.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not saying they think they'd make zero money, I'm saying they think they won't make ENOUGH money to justify the effort.
That's rather reductionist when you consider intangibles like branding also matter quite a lot, not just impacting a single product but even the company as a whole. To believe that Koei-Tecmo cares little about branding would be rather naive. A lot of other Japanese publishers do, which affects which products are localized and how they are altered in the process.
DOAX probably does jack shit for the DOA brand. Hell, DOA barely does anything for DOA.
entremet
Member
JumpCancel
Banned
If anything DOA does nothing for DOA.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
KT, the Vita exist. It is here to save you.
I think that mostly has to do with 3D fighters not being popular anymore. Tekken is in the same boat, and I love Tekken.
I highly doubt a Japanese company is well aware of GamerGate.
I think that mostly has to do with 3D fighters not being popular anymore. Tekken is in the same boat, and I love Tekken.
RichiRamjag
Member
They typically aren't. Sad that some almost seem pleased about it.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/doax3-still-not-releasing-in-us-koei-tecmo-makes-excuses
You can scroll down to see some games they released this year without any fear of negatively affecting their brand. If there's a significant profit to be made, the theoretical backlash (from an audience that isn't interested in that type of games in the first place) doesn't matter. Of course, if we're talking about a game where they don't anticipate a lot of profits AND with a backlash possibly associated with it, then it's another story.
JumpCancel
Banned
007 LOLITA
Starring PlayAsia as Ernst Stavro Blofeld
"It was me Western Audiences. The author of all your pain"
Hits Asian Cinemas February 2016
Hits Western Cinemas TBA
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Those games listed that they released are really small. Smaller then small. Who in mainstream has heard of Nights of Azure? Ar No Surge? Deception is exclusive to it's hardcore fans. Meanwhile everyone has heard of DoA. It doesn't sell well like it used to but you've heard the name, you know it's what it's famous/infamous for, I can see why KT would want to be skeptical about localizing it over here.
The persecution complex is very much real, yeah. Annoying, too.
That's the worst part of discussion on supposedly controversial business decisions to not release games. People act like "making money" and "not making money" are the binary outcomes of publishing games and if it's the former, the company in question has no excuse.
It's just really dumb.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
No, not everyone has heard of DoA. Not at all. People familiar with DoA have a huge chance of being familiar with the first two DoA volleyball games, or at least be familiar with the series' sexualisation of female characters.
Do you seriously believe a big company is holding off selling a big money maker because of some imagined backlash (without any tangible existence in reality)? People making the calls at big publishers are not GAF users. They go where the money is.
DesertOfSand
Banned
The article that Lime talked about makes a pretty good argument that the reason for the game not coming to the west is most likely not an economic one.
It's not an argument that is completely shut down, since we're not Koei Tecmo's accountants, but there's good reason to have the economic motive towards the bottom of the pile when discussing reasons why the game isn't coming to western shores.
You're right in that it isn't an open and shut case, hence the open discussion.
I was being hyperbolic, sorry about that.
Given the most recent iteration of DoA5 had a similar abundance of DLC, and Koei Tecmo release a statement about it stating "DoA DLC sales have [been] met with great success in Europe and US, predominantly because the fan base has expanded significantly on PlayStation 4 and Xbox One," I'm not so inclined to believe this.
This is actually a pretty good aspect I hadn't thought of.
The polls to choose the characters even only counted Japanese purchases.
I can definitely imagine this being at least a factor in the decision to not bring the game to the west.
Because the climate is changing. People are less accepting of the sexual objectification that DoAX series not only has but touts as a main feature.
Heck, competitive players were even tossing around the idea of having a soft ban of the more sexually exploitative costumes in DoA5:LR, and these are the people that specifically chose to play Dead or Alive over the more superior Virtua Fighter series.
/halfjoking
I don't understand why you keep insisting that I think feminism is some sort of boogeyman?
I never stated or implied that I thought feminism was some sort of bad change that's destroying everything I love about videogames or whatever.
I only said that a movement of feminism is making waves throughout the western videogame industry, and that this game not coming to the west is an acknowledgement that those waves are meaningful and real.
It's a bit weird and clumsy, but I view a foreign market looking in at the western videogame industry and recognizing the fact that the audiences here are less open to the blatant objectification of women than we were before as a good thing.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
People keep blaming it on 'climate' but guess what, it hasn't stopped the uber-sexy costumes for DOA 5. It hasn't stopped any fanservice game that I can think of from being released.
It hasn't stopped the sexy characters in other tecmo games. I'm playing deception 4, and oh boy, it is rather silly with all the fanservice i'm seeing.
If Tecmo believed in the game, and thought it would sell enough to turn a profit, they woudl release it. There is little to nothing people can say about DOAX 3 that hasn't been said about DOA 5, or any other game in the franchise.
I mean, it's not like they are trying to hide what the game is about, or inserting out of place fanservice for the titillation, it's an outright, honest stag game. It's sexy fun beach resort, not anything serious.
It hasn't stopped the sexy characters in other tecmo games. I'm playing deception 4, and oh boy, it is rather silly with all the fanservice i'm seeing.
If Tecmo believed in the game, and thought it would sell enough to turn a profit, they woudl release it. There is little to nothing people can say about DOAX 3 that hasn't been said about DOA 5, or any other game in the franchise.
I mean, it's not like they are trying to hide what the game is about, or inserting out of place fanservice for the titillation, it's an outright, honest stag game. It's sexy fun beach resort, not anything serious.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Of course all this could have been simply avoided if KT or the PR person just explained that the franchise is niche and only dedicated to the hardcore DoA fan.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Great games.
DesertOfSand
Banned
DoA5:LR is a fighting game that has sexy costume DLC.
DoAX3 exists pretty much for the sole purpose of ogling and objectifying women, something you acknowledge as well.
You don't see how the context of the two games might change how Koei Tecmo views the potential backlash they'd receive for bringing each game to the west?
And I've never heard of Deception 4. I haven't heard of a ton of localized games that had the objectification of women or similar content. Most people who play videogames have heard of the Dead or Alive series.
It's a matter of scale.
formasymphonic
Member
I know what you are saying, but the mainline DOA games always had "it's a serious / legit fighting game" aspect to fall back on. For me personally I have no interest in a DOAX. I like sexy women as much as the next het male, but it's always been the smooth and relatively accessible fighting (compared to other fighters) that I enjoyed. The sexuality has always been a part of the games, but it was something you could tolerate because you like the fighting. In 5, 5+, Ultimate and LR they took it to new peaks/depths depending on your view, with some of the costumes and the same will probably happen with X3 now they have realised how much money they can make.
The difference is though, X3 doesn't have "it's a great fighting game" to fall back on.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I'd say DoA fans are probably a minority among the people raising hell over this on Twitter and co. It's mostly those paranoiac feminist haters that have shat everywhere in the last year or so looking for yet another excuse to get angry. (And I'd bet most of them were/are not even interested in the game one bit.)
It's definitely mostly GG co-opting that's happening. A lot of the fans don't come off very well. I mean you can look at the threads and they're pretty rofe with hostility to perfectly valid criticisms.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Don't lump the DoA fandom with whatever their PR person was trying to attract. A lot of them are serious about the fighting game.
CaviarMeths
Member
The difference is that everyone seems to be fine with sexualizing underage or suspiciously young-looking characters as long as they have giant tits.
People lose their minds and post sweating gifs at every new Honoka screenshot, even though she's the same age as Marie Rose, literally has the same face, and also acts like a teenager. The only difference is that her breasts are enormous, so it's totally hot.
JumpCancel
Banned
People forget that DOA, especially 5 are solid fighting games.
It's just overshadowed by the sexy ladies.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
So serious that when the idea to ban sexy costumes from tournaments was floated, the community at large responded to the idea with hostility.
There are some serious fans, but "a lot" seems like a stretch, honestly.
kuroneko0509
Member
I love how folks keep quoting this article when it's been argued before on this very forum the games he listed don't merit any mass Critism. He hasn't even played Nights of Azure. All he did was pulled the most controversial of images possible to make his point. Something another poster around here will also do without doing actual merited research.
You're allowed to be serious about the fighting AND like sexy costumes.