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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it

A

Azzanadra

Member
yellow submarine said:
Just don't work in the game industry, it's the smart choice. Work somewhere where they will value you and pay you accordingly. Many, many other creative places to work where they don't treat you like cattle and where a lesser number of your peers aren't self-immolating tryhards who think they're the next Van Gough (while implementing a design vision from a team of producers).
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The problem seems to lie in the lack of sustainability in AAA games, which more often than not are my favourite games. What is it exactly? I highly suspect its the advancement of technology and thus graphics, so whats the solution? That all developers use Unreal Engine 4? Have a coherent vision from the beginning? Appeal to a wider audience? The vast majority of video games I think are niche products, aside from the usual CoD/Sports stuff.

I don't believe the solution is to spend less hours on the game- if anything we need more man hours for video games, with a 40 hours work week something like Uncharted 4 would take a decade to make. Even with these insane crunch times, you have games like LA Noire and Bioshock Infinite who still get trapped in development hell and long reveal to release dates.
 
H

Hypereides

Member
Reading about the current state of workload in the game industry has me somewhat concerned.

Currently, I'm studying with intention of pursuing employment in the gaming industry.

For a brief period I was a voluntary beta-tester at a indie developer, in Copenhagen. Mainly did it to get an impression of the work environment and the industry. Some of the people I spoke with did not exactly seem friendly and it did appear to be a tough work environment.

There also seemed to be this attitude, among some people, that if you aren't a programmer then you shouldn't expect people to respect nor pay any attention to you.
 
T

texasairhead101

Member
About to finish up part two and this is a must listen to for people that haven't. Great interview that Amy talks openly through the entire thing.
 
J

JP_

Banned
BobTheFork said:
Well crowd funding seems to have taken off as a way to get the capital you need to start up. I think Job security in a game publisher is overstated. As soon as a game is finished you can be cut with hundred others and be waiting to get another stop for months.

It's still far more possible for a small team or even on person to accomplish a self publish than ever before.
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No, this is not realistic. Crowdfunding is mostly dead now and everybody hates early access. The honeymoon is over. You see success stories in the headlines, but you never hear about all the games that get ignored and make no money. Going indie was never easy and it's only getting harder. Been at it for like 5 years now and I've been doing freelance work to pay the bills. Depending on how my current game goes, I thought about getting a normal job in AAA if things don't pick up -- but now I'm considering other industries for something more dependable and just making games as a hobby.
 
Astral Dog

Astral Dog

Member
Yep, the Hellish working conditions of the videogame industry are well know by now and not secret, not even beloved Naughty Dog is stainless about this, not to mention toxic sexism, explotation that happens on the technology field :(
 
G

Goron2000

best junior ever
elcuervo75 said:
I worked 50-60 hour weeks for 10 years making 30-36000 a year at a public school that was too cheap to hire extra help or pay me more. I let them do it to me for far too long.

Boo hoo to you and your 150k+ salary.

At least I'm ok now.
Click to expand...

This isn't just Amy and people in high up positions. These hours are for everyone in the industry, including QA who in most cases work for minimum wage.
 
rackham

rackham

Banned
Did someone say triple a games have a razor thin profit? Don't they make near billions off their micro transactions? I call huge bullshit on that. How many triple a games are barely making their money back?
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
I'm not sure why 14 pages into this thread people are still talking about Crunch. This is not about Crunch, this is Hennig saying she worked 7-day, 80 hour work weeks for basically 10 years straight. That's not Crunch, that's a gulag.

This is a perennial problem when young, passionate people who don't have families come into the industry and get taken advantage of. When everyone else at the company is doing it, it becomes normalized. And once 80 hour weeks becomes the standard, you start seeing things like discrimination against people who have families, or just a basic life balance, or are older and can't get 5 hours sleep a night ad infinitum without major health implications.

It's not limited to gaming; this is common in the tech industry and is colloquially known as "startup life" even when the company is not really a startup anymore.

At this point I think the government needs to step in and provide some protections for workers in technology, because it is obviously something the industry has not been able to solve on its own, and people are having relationships and (physical/mental) health ruined because of it.
 
B

Byakuya769

Member
This is a broader problem than just one developer or even one industry. It's past time that western governments step in and save their professionals from theirselves.

eyeball_kid said:
I'm not sure why 14 pages into this thread people are still talking about Crunch. This is not about Crunch, this is Hennig saying she worked 7-day, 80 hour work weeks for basically 10 years straight. That's not Crunch, that's a gulag.

This is a perennial problem when young, passionate people who don't have families come into the industry and get taken advantage of. When everyone else at the company is doing it, it becomes normalized. And once 80 hour weeks becomes the standard, you start seeing things like discrimination against people who have families, or just a basic life balance, or are older and can't get 5 hours sleep a night ad infinitum without major health implications.

It's not limited to gaming; this is common in the tech industry and is colloquially known as "startup life" even when the company is not really a startup anymore.

At this point I think the government needs to step in and provide some protections for workers in technology, because it is obviously something the industry has not been able to solve on its own, and people are having relationships and (physical/mental) health ruined because of it.
Click to expand...

Wow, we're completely on the same page, but I would add in pretty much any white collar job. This love to work, die to live culture is leaves us completely failing to take advantage of societal productivity gains.
 
U

username12

Member
If I'm working 80 hours a week and can retire at 40, that's a fair sacrifice. If I'm just going through life like everybody else, not worth it.
 
Z

zelas

Member
I'm seeing a lot of people talk about crunch in this topic. It was my understanding that crunch referred to a specific period of time at the end of a game's life cycle. Is Amy saying she was required to do crunch for 10.5 years, nonstop?
 
H

How About No

Member
Sub Boss said:
Dont do it!
Click to expand...

Still better than Walmart. Well except you can't work more than 40 hours working for Walmart

Anyway Naughty Dog artists are my professional rolemodels and what they do is something I'd absolutely love to do but if I'd have to work hours like that...

Well maybe by the time I get proficient and get a portfolio together the industry'll change. I can take my time

Interficium said:
Bad news, artists are considered the most disposable part of the industry.

Unless you're like in the top 50 of concept artists worldwide.
Click to expand...

:( nuuooo
 
Diseased Yak

Diseased Yak

Gold Member
I realized my dream of landing a job in the games industry, working for one of the biggest devs in SoCal. Didn't take me long to burn the fuck out, but I had also been working in IT for 25+ years and was generally burned out anyway. The crazy hours certainly helped it along, though.

I could never do 80+/week, though, for weeks in a row, much less years. That would take some level of stamina I'll never attain.
 
T

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Zombie James said:
Crunch, again, is a huge industry problem not enough people talk about. It comes up once in a while and people have a little chat about it but that's not enough. There needs to be constant attention and a constant dialog if anything is ever going to change.
Click to expand...

It's not just crunch. Apparently long working hours to get a game out within 2 years is the norm. It's why the industry needs a serious reset button in terms of development times/work schedules.
 
I

Interficium

Banned
How About No said:
Still better than Walmart. Well except you can't work more than 40 hours working for Walmart

Anyway Naughty Dog artists are my professional rolemodels and what they do is something I'd absolutely love to do but if I'd have to work hours like that...

Well maybe by the time I get proficient and get a portfolio together the industry'll change. I can take my time
Click to expand...

Bad news, artists are considered the most disposable part of the industry.

Unless you're like in the top 50 of concept artists worldwide.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
All that overtime has to be fucking horrible to the bottom line. Such a horrible way to do business.

She was probably exempt too though so while everyone else saw a nice check she got the same.
 
J

jelly

Member
FyreWulff said:
Industry needs to grow up and hold to that 9-5 hard schedule.
Click to expand...

When you have a conveyor belt of new staff it's unlikely. You just have to hope the company you work for isn't brutal or you can stick with something you're passionate about for the short or long haul until you move on. Maybe the more consistent hardware and ecosystem of consoles will help things a little.

Is the film industry any different, when passion and creativity is involved along with sought after jobs employers have employees over a barrel.
 
maks

maks

Member
zelas said:
I'm seeing a lot of people talk about crunch in this topic. It was my understanding that crunch referred to a specific period of time at the end of a game's life cycle. Is Amy saying she was required to do crunch for 10.5 years, nonstop?
Click to expand...


That's what I'm scratching my head over. I had a back-to-back crunch where I worked a 9am-9pm schedule mon-sat for maybe 14 or so months straight. But this was because I was put onto the crunch of 3 straight games. I'm guessing this couldn't have been just uncharted games she had to work on.
 
M

mmazurkiewicz

Member
NervousXtian said:
All that overtime has to be fucking horrible to the bottom line. Such a horrible way to do business.

She was probably exempt too though so while everyone else saw a nice check she got the same.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong but if the companies have this 80 hour culture for everyone, they're likely also getting screwed as they're likely all salaried.
 
Z

zoku88

Member
Byakuya769 said:
This is a broader problem than just one developer or even one industry. It's past time that western governments step in and save their professionals from theirselves.



Wow, we're completely on the same page, but I would add in pretty much any white collar job. This love to work, die to live culture is leaves us completely failing to take advantage of societal productivity gains.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on the industry somewhat. I work in the hardware component industry (processor). People usually start leaving at 5 and almost no one is here past 6.


I think I've only worked 5 total weekends in the six years I've been here.

The hardware industry has a lot of similar challenges to the software industry, except that it is a lot more expensive and less room to correct mistakes. So, besides BS scheduling, not sure why they would "need" to crunch more.

It might be that the industry skews older,though.
 
S

ScottFarRoad

Neo Member
Pretty sure don't have to work that long each week to make videogames. I don't work more than 40 as a self-employed indie dev and I'm pretty sure Amy doesn't anymore, or she wouldn't be still making games.

Though maybe I'm a poor judge of time. It's hard to tell what's work and what's not.

Admittedly, one reason I got out of AAA dev is because I don't want to spend 80+ hours making a game I don't believe in. But I'll spend 100 a week making one I do.

I feel nothing but compassion for talented people who consume their talents making AAA games though and I hope they enjoy every moment of it. Just remember a career is supposed to last a lifetime. How many crunch times can you go through? And if you still want to make games but can't manage crunch, there are 100s of proper indie teams who will take you!

I wonder if we'd even have just a ripe indie scene if it it wasn't for AAA burning out employees who splinter into smaller teams. Technically, that's a net gain for we indie devs.
 
B

balohna

Member
I work at a AAA studio, and the average employee is more likely to work 50-65 hours during crunch and 40 hours most of the rest of the year. Salaried employees get a ton of vacation, and hourly employees get paid overtime. Free meals. It's not so bad if it's only 2-3 months at the end of a 2 year cycle (with some scattered mini crunches here and there for demoes, important milestones, etc.).

I see some leads pulling ridiculous hours (probably 80+) at key points, but not all the time. They also take a ton of vacation time when things slow down, and get paid nicely.

I can see Naughty Dog having crazy standards based on what they put out, but 80 hours for 10+ years is extra crazy. On my list of places to never apply to.
 
B

balohna

Member
username12 said:
If I'm working 80 hours a week and can retire at 40, that's a fair sacrifice. If I'm just going through life like everybody else, not worth it.
Click to expand...

If you're an Amy Hennig or other big name creative, you can probably save and retire fairly young if you're willing to sacrifice lifestyle a bit. And hey, if you have no kids and work 80 hours a week you'll probably do fine.
 
B

Branduil

Member
There's no way that people can even be productive for 80 hours a week. They could probably cut worked time in half and be just as productive. So this kind of scheduling is stupid in addition to being evil.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
CuHpcUjW8AEHMWt.jpg
 
S

Sesha

Member
More hours per day doesn't automatically lead to more work done. Modern society still has yet to accept this, to everybody's detriment. Some have to work long hours due to their profession, but there's no need for your average software developer to work 10+ hour days.

This is why I'm skeptical when companies like Capcom are adamant about cutting down development time on even major titles to 2.5 years. It inevitably leads to tired, unhappy developers, who do lower quality work as a result. It's not a safe recipe for a great product. That Capcom specifically is still sticking to the idea even after SFV and them as a result telling their shareholders that they need spend more times to make a high quality title.
 
A

Azzanadra

Member
balohna said:
I work at a AAA studio, and the average employee is more likely to work 50-65 hours during crunch and 40 hours most of the rest of the year. Salaried employees get a ton of vacation, and hourly employees get paid overtime. Free meals. It's not so bad if it's only 2-3 months at the end of a 2 year cycle (with some scattered mini crunches here and there for demoes, important milestones, etc.).

I see some leads pulling ridiculous hours (probably 80+) at key points, but not all the time. They also take a ton of vacation time when things slow down, and get paid nicely.

I can see Naughty Dog having crazy standards based on what they put out, but 80 hours for 10+ years is extra crazy. On my list of places to never apply to.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I buy her story completely though, I have a feeling she might be exaggerating a bit. Because 80 hours every week for 10 literal years would kill you, and I don't even mean in a joking way- I mean you would literally be dead.

I can understand leads putting in crazy hours though, they are to video games what a director would be to a movie or a show runner to a TV show- so I would expect an intense level of work.
 
B

Boombloxer

Member
Lister said:
Fucking brutal. Never going into game development, unless it's in a lead role where I can make sure neither I nor my team has to ever give up so much for the product.

Another thing that pisses me off are the souless suits at the top, who certainly aren't working 80 hours a week, and yet reap huge dividends on the backs of talented engineers and artists making the games under what are pretty unfair, unethical workign schedules.
Click to expand...

This post is an example of not knowing much.
At most studios with this level of quality, the seniors and execs work just as hard.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Krejlooc said:
Its funny because Sonic Heroes' level design takes an enormous nose dive in the second half. The first two or so levels are actually pretty alright, then it just gets jankier and jankier as it goes.
Click to expand...

yea you almost think the game is gonna be good going by Ocean Palace/that second city level and by the halfway mark you're like "pls God no more of this shit"

But hey they called 2003 the "Year of Sonic!" so I guess that means everybody's working 80 hours on this huge ass video game to get it out by the end of the year(December 30th in Japan). Then you wonder why its so glitchy and unpolished...
 
L

lemon__fresh

Member
eyeball_kid said:
I'm not sure why 14 pages into this thread people are still talking about Crunch. This is not about Crunch, this is Hennig saying she worked 7-day, 80 hour work weeks for basically 10 years straight. That's not Crunch, that's a gulag.

This is a perennial problem when young, passionate people who don't have families come into the industry and get taken advantage of. When everyone else at the company is doing it, it becomes normalized. And once 80 hour weeks becomes the standard, you start seeing things like discrimination against people who have families, or just a basic life balance, or are older and can't get 5 hours sleep a night ad infinitum without major health implications.

It's not limited to gaming; this is common in the tech industry and is colloquially known as "startup life" even when the company is not really a startup anymore.

At this point I think the government needs to step in and provide some protections for workers in technology, because it is obviously something the industry has not been able to solve on its own, and people are having relationships and (physical/mental) health ruined because of it.
Click to expand...

Sesha said:
More hours per day doesn't automatically lead to more work done. Modern society still has yet to accept this, to everybody's detriment. Some have to work long hours due to their profession, but there's no need for your average software developer to work 10+ hour days.

This is why I'm skeptical when companies like Capcom are adamant about cutting down development time on even major titles to 2.5 years. It inevitably leads to tired, unhappy developers, who do lower quality work as a result. It's not a safe recipe for a great product. That Capcom specifically is still sticking to the idea even after SFV and them as a result telling their shareholders that they need spend more times to make a high quality title.
Click to expand...

Nailed it! The North American work ethic...
 
S

Sölf

Member
"I mean, Uncharted 1; a ten-hour game, no other modes... you can't make a game like that any more."
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I am not really sure about that statement. Unless she was specifically referring to AAA games. But even then I am not sure I would really agree.

But aside from that, holy shit. 80 hours or more every week? That's really insane and unhealthy. How can people keep going like this for years?!
 
Z

zombieshavebrains

I have not used cocaine
Azzanadra said:
I don't know if I buy her story completely though, I have a feeling she might be exaggerating a bit. Because 80 hours every week for 10 literal years would kill you, and I don't even mean in a joking way- I mean you would literally be dead.

I can understand leads putting in crazy hours though, they are to video games what a director would be to a movie or a show runner to a TV show- so I would expect an intense level of work.
Click to expand...

I'd be skeptical too. No one works that much unless they really want to. I know she's not asking for any sympathy but I also don't have any to give if she did it for that long.

Plus, what the hell is there to do for 80 hours a week if you aren't releasing a game?
 
D

DangerMouse

Member
Azzanadra said:
I don't know if I buy her story completely though, I have a feeling she might be exaggerating a bit. Because 80 hours every week for 10 literal years would kill you, and I don't even mean in a joking way- I mean you would literally be dead.

I can understand leads putting in crazy hours though, they are to video games what a director would be to a movie or a show runner to a TV show- so I would expect an intense level of work.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Not to mention Hennig clearly puts in double or even triple duty in a lot of her games. She was both creative director and one of the lead writers/story planners and I think she seems like the type to be pretty hands-on even if she's not doing the actual engineering. I can believe she had that many hours at times but she wears a lot of hats so the time is going to add up, even if the work environment regulated hours better.

Sesha said:
More hours per day doesn't automatically lead to more work done. Modern society still has yet to accept this, to everybody's detriment. Some have to work long hours due to their profession, but there's no need for your average software developer to work 10+ hour days.

This is why I'm skeptical when companies like Capcom are adamant about cutting down development time on even major titles to 2.5 years. It inevitably leads to tired, unhappy developers, who do lower quality work as a result. It's not a safe recipe for a great product. That Capcom specifically is still sticking to the idea even after SFV and them as a result telling their shareholders that they need spend more times to make a high quality title.
Click to expand...

Yeah.
 
M

MoonFrog

Member
I'm pretty sure she said she wanted to do it and that she wasn't sacrificing so much to do it given how she organized her life but that she thinks, looking back, especially for people who would be sacrificing more, that it isn't worth it and that she has moved on to a lighter work week. That's what I got from the quotes in the OP.
 
C

chepu

Member
You know what grinds my gear the most, when there are assholes who says "X game is a piece of shit, not worth a freakin dime, git gud lazy developer" and even tweet that shit to developers.

I cant imagine being one of those developers who worked 80 hour a week and maybe lost a marriage, your kids bday party or a special moment with your parents/grand parents and then read that shit.

This is a pretty fucked up industry, from both sides, some sick bosses, and disgusting customers too.

Faith lost in humanity :/
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Omnistalgic said:
This is why we need AA games back, and everyone needs to stop complaining about replay value and length.

Just put out quality work.
Click to expand...
Only halfway through this, but AA games just don't work anymore and I don't think they ever will. Look at Bizarre Creations with Blur and Blood Stone. Pandemic with The Saboteur. Look at Evolution with Motorstorm and Driveclub. The latter are really only applicable to current-gen but it pretty much goes without saying that if you're under a big publisher, it's either AAA or go home, unless you're some kind of indie darling (and most likely still under a crunch).

FWIW, Bizarre were under Activision. Pandemic under EA. Evo under Sony. Only smaller pubs/devs not under those kinds of publishers are capable of still churning out decent, smaller titles and surviving. Sega seemed to have a pretty solid working model with devs like Platinum and Sumo, but every other big name sounds like they push too hard.
 
I

III-V

Member
I really cringe everytime I read some moron post about lazy devs.

Its the biggest bullshit and really criminal and damaging to these people who give everything for their art.

80 hrs a week is no way to live for years on end, and even worse when you have a family...
 
Compsiox

Compsiox

Banned
I worry about this often. I'm looking to get into the industry as a programmer and I hope this changes within the next 5 years.
 
F

Forsaken82

Member
Relix said:
This happens a lot in software development when releasing nears closing depending on project management.
Click to expand...

She's stating that this was her average work week from the start of a project to the end...

I don't doubt it to be honest... Higher ranking positions typically do work longer hours from start to finish. It's tough, but you do it because you love the industry. I don't care who you are and what you say... if you work at a company for 10 and a half years and NOT leave WHILE working those conditions, you can't honestly say you didn't enjoy your time or the projects. That just doesn't happen. You can keep saying it's not worth it til you die, but you just DON'T keep this up without enjoying it.
 
B

BajiBoxer

Banned
III-V said:
I really cringe everytime I read some moron post about lazy devs.

Its the biggest bullshit and really criminal and damaging to these people who give everything for their art.

80 hrs a week is no way to live for years on end, and even worse when you have a family...
Click to expand...

Yes, if anything it's the opposite. Maybe the work would be higher quality if people were working less hours. The few people I knew who actually worked those kind of hours (admitedly not tech people) weren't really acomplishing more than they would in 2/3rds or half the time if rested. They also make a hell of a lot more mistakes.
 
R

RPGam3r

Member
At some point you have to take responsibility for your poor work life balance. I've been on projects where I could have had my devs work way more hours, but I pushed back and came up with other ways to deal with the issues.

Plus being in a leadership position and working heavy overtime sets a bad precedent for your team.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
BobTheFork said:
Well crowd funding seems to have taken off as a way to get the capital you need to start up. I think Job security in a game publisher is overstated. As soon as a game is finished you can be cut with hundred others and be waiting to get another stop for months.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's certainly not impossible to get started as an indie and I purposely avoided job security as a benefit to working in AAA. Just noting that there are lots of people who are, like, good designers that can't write code, or talented 3D modelers who can't spell, or whatever who can be very useful as part of a big team but probably couldn't make a good game on their own.

Azzanadra said:
so whats the solution? That all developers use Unreal Engine 4?
Click to expand...

It wouldn't hurt. People waste a lot of time on custom toolsets they don't actually need.

Even with these insane crunch times, you have games like LA Noire and Bioshock Infinite who still get trapped in development hell and long reveal to release dates.
Click to expand...

I mean, LA Noire took so long in dev hell in part because of the crippling crunch culture and Bioshock Infinite did because of incoherent management and poor production support.

NervousXtian said:
All that overtime has to be fucking horrible to the bottom line. Such a horrible way to do business.

She was probably exempt too though so while everyone else saw a nice check she got the same.
Click to expand...

Basically everyone working directly on a game besides, like, QA is exempt at a software company.

JP_ said:
No, this is not realistic. Crowdfunding is mostly dead now
Click to expand...

This is... not correct tho?
 
M

Mik2121

Member
Having heard enough stuff about Naughty Dog's work environment from different people working there, yes, the overtime mentality is quite something, though in some ways might be slightly different than your average Japanese game company where the overtime is also incredibly bad, but there they actually pressure you into doing it no matter what (and no, not happening where I work now). Some of the horror stories from coworkers that used to work at Capcom, Konami, Level 5, Nintendo etc.. are quite something :p

BTW there are companies like Ubisoft where "overtime" means working until 8pm and an average day being until 6. Many of these companies are working on average until 8 or 9, then overtime (not even deadline crunch) is stuff like 11 or 12. For all the shit some of the larger companies get, at least they have been sued enough to create a better work environment :) (some of this information is personal experience, some is from coworkers)
 
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