It's a satirical image from the famous Sony hating UK: Resistance.
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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
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It's a satirical image from the famous Sony hating UK: Resistance.
Apophis2036
Banned
Oh every one of the big three do it, of that there is no doubt, i own all three current gen consoles and have a WiiU on pre order with a launch day PS4 purchase planned so you will find no MS bias here
.Sony's 2005 E3 will go down in history as one of the biggest over exaggerations of hardware and software capabilities ever tho, i hope this time they are far more conservative with the consoles limitations.
They talked for 50 mins about specs at the reveal of PS3 lol !, can't see this happening again as the industry (esp E3) has changed so much in the past 7 years.
As Kaz is still living that event down i bet he wants no such repeat either
.jeff_rigby
Banned
Repeat to add new insights?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6418/...d-opteron-cpus-for-servers-production-in-2014
It appears that Charlie at SemiAccurate has had an inside track in this. He hinted over a year ago about SeaMicro and ARM - X86 (AMD). He spend allot of time pointing out (with pictures too) that the design of the SeaMicro chassis would support more CPUs and cards than could be fit into the Power/heat budget of the chassis using Atom CPUs and SeaMicro comment: one bullet point in the Sea Micro slide deck points out the ASICs at the heart of the system connect to the CPUs via plain old vanella PCIe2. They do this in an odd way however, they say, "CPU independent; X-86, ARM, etc. That kinda makes you wonder a bit, doesn't it.
So combining the above with the ARM agreement over a year ago to put ARM A5s as DRM trustzone in AMD APUs (Including I assume both consoles) with the AMD purchase of SeaMicro along with their purchase of stock in Cloud gaming company CiiNOW and this 2010 article Part the Clouds: AMD Fusion APUs Ideal for Cloud Clients would tend to support a long range plan.
Combine the rumors of both consoles with AMD CPU and GPU with the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint in 2010 mentioning cloud gaming and locally serving (same technology) a handheld so it can "Cloud serve" a Xbox 720 game to a handheld and Sony purchasing Gaikai cloud gaming company a few months ago with a Sony patent in 2011; SYSTEM AND METHOD FOR DATA SYNCHRONIZATION FOR A COMPUTER ARCHITECTURE FOR BROADBAND NETWORK. , which is a Sony patent train starting in 2001, probably because of the Cell processor, on distributed processing and we have everyone on board Cloud serving in all it's forms (see the above AMD chart).
I outlined this 5 months ago and supported it with cites from AMD and patents from all.
I suggest reading the article Part the Clouds: AMD Fusion APUs Ideal for Cloud Clients and this continuation of the article. Lots there that applies to us and it's an easy read. After reading think about Zlib having hardware support in AMD APUs and the W3C supporting WebCL and Zlib compression as the standards to be used by web browsers. Think about AMD also including a ARM A5 for DRM and more in their APUs.
Think about my being called crazy for all the attention I paid to the PS3 webkit browser and my opinions on what's coming this year.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6418/...d-opteron-cpus-for-servers-production-in-2014
It appears that Charlie at SemiAccurate has had an inside track in this. He hinted over a year ago about SeaMicro and ARM - X86 (AMD). He spend allot of time pointing out (with pictures too) that the design of the SeaMicro chassis would support more CPUs and cards than could be fit into the Power/heat budget of the chassis using Atom CPUs and SeaMicro comment: one bullet point in the Sea Micro slide deck points out the ASICs at the heart of the system connect to the CPUs via plain old vanella PCIe2. They do this in an odd way however, they say, "CPU independent; X-86, ARM, etc. That kinda makes you wonder a bit, doesn't it.
So combining the above with the ARM agreement over a year ago to put ARM A5s as DRM trustzone in AMD APUs (Including I assume both consoles) with the AMD purchase of SeaMicro along with their purchase of stock in Cloud gaming company CiiNOW and this 2010 article Part the Clouds: AMD Fusion APUs Ideal for Cloud Clients would tend to support a long range plan.
Combine the rumors of both consoles with AMD CPU and GPU with the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint in 2010 mentioning cloud gaming and locally serving (same technology) a handheld so it can "Cloud serve" a Xbox 720 game to a handheld and Sony purchasing Gaikai cloud gaming company a few months ago with a Sony patent in 2011; SYSTEM AND METHOD FOR DATA SYNCHRONIZATION FOR A COMPUTER ARCHITECTURE FOR BROADBAND NETWORK. , which is a Sony patent train starting in 2001, probably because of the Cell processor, on distributed processing and we have everyone on board Cloud serving in all it's forms (see the above AMD chart).
I outlined this 5 months ago and supported it with cites from AMD and patents from all.
I suggest reading the article Part the Clouds: AMD Fusion APUs Ideal for Cloud Clients and this continuation of the article. Lots there that applies to us and it's an easy read. After reading think about Zlib having hardware support in AMD APUs and the W3C supporting WebCL and Zlib compression as the standards to be used by web browsers. Think about AMD also including a ARM A5 for DRM and more in their APUs.
Think about my being called crazy for all the attention I paid to the PS3 webkit browser and my opinions on what's coming this year.
Canis lupus
Member
Oh every one of the big three do it, of that there is no doubt, i own all three current gen consoles and have a WiiU on pre order with a launch day PS4 purchase planned so you will find no MS bias here
Sony's 2005 E3 will go down in history as one of the biggest over exaggerations of hardware and software capabilities ever tho, i hope this time they are far more conservative with the consoles limitations.
They talked for 50 mins about specs at the reveal of PS3 lol !, can't see this happening again as the industry (esp E3) has changed so much in the past 7 years.
As Kaz is still living that event down i bet he wants no such repeat either
E3 2005 is still best E3 imo.
Vita is a more recent point of reference, and I think/hope we'll get something closer to its reveal.
The closer proximity to launch might facilitate that...PS4 might be on a Vita style schedule, rather than a PS3 style one (i.e. a reveal within 11 months of launch vs 18 months of launch)
There should be a decent slate of software in an advanced stage to show by next E3 certainly, if not earlier, if they are targeting the a 6 month launch window straddling 2013/2014.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Continuation of my post on AMD-ARM above, PS4 will likely have a ARM A5 for DRM:
Oh, mentioned in some of the ARM - AMD articles is the ability to run ARM programs or easily port Android programs that are designed to run on ARM processors. As previously mentioned, programs for handhelds running on ARM processors that follow HSA Foundation rules may run on X86 APUs that contain ARM processors with little maybe no change.
Started looking for PS4 + ARM or Android and found this: PS4 Rumors : Multitasking while gaming , android based OS …. More 7/2011
Oh, mentioned in some of the ARM - AMD articles is the ability to run ARM programs or easily port Android programs that are designed to run on ARM processors. As previously mentioned, programs for handhelds running on ARM processors that follow HSA Foundation rules may run on X86 APUs that contain ARM processors with little maybe no change.
Started looking for PS4 + ARM or Android and found this: PS4 Rumors : Multitasking while gaming , android based OS …. More 7/2011
Interesting, this; "PS4 will play Blu-ray 200GB discs for movies only, these discs will be played on a 16x BD reader while games will get to 100GB discs only" is accurate. A 4K blu-ray player will be a quad layer drive with h.265 codec which is 2X the compression of 1080P blu-ray (h.264) so 100 GB for games and data but twice a blu-rays 1080P storage or 200 gigs storage for 1080P blu-ray. The rest of it varies from probable to possible, there may be a Android OS mode that is transparent.
Apophis2036
Banned
I think Jeff's enthusiasm is fantastic and I enjoy reading his posts but i think he focuses far too much on 'cutting edge' tech news / leaks.
I think this console will have to be built for $500, with them taking a $100 hit and selling it at $400 to match the 720's launch price.
Expect the original leaks of a 4 Core AMD CPU, a 1.8TF GPU with 2GB's of Ram, which is still a pretty big power leap over the PS3 (Faster CPU, 4x Ram, 7x GPU power, faster BR Drive), if it's any better than that then fantastic but expecting massive bumps in Ram or GPU power just over a year from launch is setting people up for disappointment imo.
I'm expecting similar but a tad bit higher. I think it'll get to 4Gb of RAM, but I don't think it'll be GDDR5 like the early rumors suggested. I could see them getting into the 2-2.5 TFlop range (likely on the lower end) if they use the 8850 or 8870 as the base. Of course those will be underclocked.
Specs like that are enough to run something like BF3 on Ultra well over 30fps at 1080p. That kind of power in a console setting would be fantastic.
I was hoping for it to be Android based. Google and Sony can now work their butts off to create an "efficient" OS (read OS memory footprint).
Also the news about the speed; it's a significant jump to go from 9MBps to 72MBps. Streaming assets would definitely see drastic improvements. And I can't think beyond first parties who may utilize this to a great effect.
Also the news about the speed; it's a significant jump to go from 9MBps to 72MBps. Streaming assets would definitely see drastic improvements. And I can't think beyond first parties who may utilize this to a great effect.
Android is kind of a RAM hog though. I'm betting it'll be Linux based again.
I totally agree with you on the BRD speed. People keep forgetting how much of a difference that'll make in loading high quality texture assets and large environments. I hope we don't see anything like the UE3 slow texture load next gen.
Apophis2036
Banned
I think they could well have been persuaded to go with 4GB's of Ram, esp if the 720 has something mental like 6GB's.
That is the only upgrade i can realistically expect over the OP's original leak.
Beefing up the GPU will create more heat and require more power.
Even at 1.8TF, it's unreal to think what games like God of War / Killzone / Uncharted / Gran Turismo could look like with a GPU even 6 times as powerful as RSX, 4 times as much Ram and a more up to date CPU.
Agreed. I should have made more clear that I think 1.8Tflops is likely with a 78XX variant and 2-2.5 if they use an 88XX. The 88XX series could probably hit the higher levels of performance at cooler levels. It all depends on when manufacturing starts.
Given it'll be a custom version, I'm hoping they can make it a frugal one (esp. compared to XB3 which supposedly will have more RAM). I don't OS to play a detrimental part when it comes to resource/RAM limitation for game design.
You'll see it with third parties I'd assume. At least the first generation of next gen titles as they get their heads around how to play to the strengths of each platform. I just hope PS4 owners won't be getting the short end of the stick with regards to inferior versions of multiplat games like with PS3.
Apophis2036
Banned
Won't that be guaranteed by the fact they are going with an AMD CPU ?, i thought the main factor in multi platform games being mostly lower quality than the 360 versions was the complexity of the Cell CPU ?.
Is there any chance at all that they will stick with an updated version of the Cell or is it 99% they are going with a far more traditional PC like CPU ?.
gundamkyoukai
Member
There no chance of them going with Cell again even thought i like Cell they will be going with a traditional PC like CPU .
I expect ports will be the same between PS4 and 720 unless ones has a huge jump in power compare to the next which i don't see happening .
Still each platform going to have it's edge in something but don't think it going to be a big deal .
pharmboy044
Member
So if the PS4 is not using the Cell, does this mean no backwards compatibility with PS3/PSN games? Will Sony be willing to emulate some PS3 games for the early adopters?
phosphor112
Banned
16x is really damn fast...
1x BD = 38mbps...
x
16
_____
576mbps = 72MB/s
The 8x DVD drive in the 360 is ~60mbps (7.5MB/s)
correct my math if I'm stupid.
Oh god, I just realized my previous estimate (no longer in post) was wrong... DVD doesn't read linear, too late.. must go to bed.
No one knows what they'll do. I'll be highly upset if I can't play my huge library of PSN games.
And a console that can run BF3 ultra 1080p/30fps could make games that look much better due to a closed platform etc.
Just taking a current game from 720p/30 to 1080p/60 would require 4xthe shader power (geometry wouldn't change).
FatalMuzza
Banned
Are we completely certain there will be a PS4?
Sony may prefer to release a Super Ulta Slim with no Blu Ray next round. DLC only model at a seriously low low price making it affordable to even the starving children of the 3rd world. And Gaki would be a further selling point which would be touted to provide scalable future proof GFX. No matter how much it sucks - we know Sony is on board.
This would make more sense considering the lack of success of the Vita and Sony's financial position.
Sony may prefer to release a Super Ulta Slim with no Blu Ray next round. DLC only model at a seriously low low price making it affordable to even the starving children of the 3rd world. And Gaki would be a further selling point which would be touted to provide scalable future proof GFX. No matter how much it sucks - we know Sony is on board.
This would make more sense considering the lack of success of the Vita and Sony's financial position.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I suggest reading the article Part the Clouds: AMD Fusion APUs Ideal for Cloud Clients and this continuation of the article. Lots there that applies to us and it's an easy read. After reading think about Zlib having hardware support in AMD APUs and the W3C supporting WebCL and Zlib compression as the standards to be used by web browsers. Think about AMD also including a ARM A5 for DRM and more in their APUs.
A PS3 is a early design to fill the same niche that AMD is filling with their APUs, the PS3 has no place in the future. The AMD APUs can be produced cheaper than the PS3's hardware if only because of the economy of scale.
Any console that targets the third world would need to do more than play games. I agree that a Linux OS even if "other OS" is necessary and AMD is providing a HSA Linux kernel. Redhat Linux just hired a Top programmer who was previously working on Gstreamer for Collabora. He is directing the development of Open Office for Linux. With good productivity software and hardware DRM (ARM processor in the AMD APU) plus games, Linux can finally be accepted as an alternative to Windows which increases the cost of platforms with Windows by about $100.
Red Hat wrote the Sugar front end for The One Laptop per child that has the "Near" or Neighborhood feature that Nintendo in the Wii U and Sony in the Vita copied.
Those specs are what I expect also (10X, 300FPS, 1.8TF, 4Gb RAM, 2 Jaguar packages (8 Jaguar CPUs)) but I expect a much cheaper SKU if Sony is targeting a 2014 design with QOS.Apophis2036 said:
A low end 1 APU without descrete GPU can fill a low cost price point but still support 10X & 300fps which I pointed out that a PDF from a Sony engineer appears to be their min spec to support 5 S3D 1080P views on a glassless 4K TV. A higher end SKU with a discrete GPU can support higher performance. QOS allows for easy standards so that the game runs properly on both SKUs. This is apparently what Microsoft is going to do with the Xbox 720 with the lower power SKU in Cable boxes.
Read the two AMD articles again and think on it. If you have the big picture in mind, the title of the first AMD article tells why companies like Netflix, Amazon, Sony, Hulu and more are going to support this; there is money to be made in providing cloud services. Think about a AMD APU that is virus free (ARM Trustzone) powerful enough to handle most consumer programs and with interfaces (Wireless and Wired) to support accessories envisioned for the next 10 years; this is what I expect from the PS4 and Xbox3. AMD can't compete with Intel in providing PC processors using older CPU only processing so they make the PC obsolete by partnering with Microsoft and Sony in producing a game console where Sony and Microsoft insist programmers follow HSA rules, with programs following HSA rules AMD APUs are at least the equal of Intel and MUCH MUCH cheaper.
Two SKUs that put out different quality visuals would be a nightmare to market. Even if the standards are easily implemented having some of your cutsomers get better graphics on the same platform is a really bad move. Stuff like HDD-less SKUs work because many people won't know how gimped they are. Having a version with better graphics would really put people off, even if they wouldn't have it set up right. The knowledge that one is a "good" version and the other a "bad" version sours the brand. A streaming only version is the only type of thing that would work like that, as an alternative to disks and downloads, but I don't forsee anything like that in the near future.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Do you accept that AMD HSA APUs will be forward compatible? Think on why QOS is in the AMD 2014 roadmap. Even without QOS, a few years down the road you will eventually have a new game Console right? IT's going to run older games as well as newer games...the same situation arises. Think on it, with QOS and properly written programs even without multiple SKUs, the program you buy now for the PS4 can take advantage of more resources in a PS5.
You have a valid point about the customer view but it's a choice with a higher pricepoint. Do you think having a lower pricepoint PS3 is going to make customers happy when they find out that their investment in PS3 games can't be used on the PS4? A cheap min performance PS4 to fill the entry pricepoint is I think the better choice. What will Sony do and are 2014 designs going to be used for game consoles is the big question.
I'm surprised no one picked up on this in the previous cite:
Low end Android handhelds from China are selling sub $100. PS4 titles on the road means "Cloud served" from your home PS4 just like in the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint. PS4 to support 4K blu-ray for Sony 4K TVs and 4K glassless 1080P S3D and now a future Sony Touchscreen TV. (This implies a way for the TV to pass touchscreen information to the PS4.) Now read the AMD article again....think on Sony talking about using the PS4 APU for medical imaging and watch an episode of The Gifted Man.http://kokena.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/ps4-rumors-multitasking-while-gaming-android-based-os-more/ said:
Didn't know starving children of the 3rd world can afford the fast internet broadband Gaikai requires...I thought they'd be more worried about, you know, food.
phosphor112
Banned
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
PS4 is supporting 4K. I don't understand why this isn't obvious to you guys.
Melchiah
Member
I think there's no way Sony/MS would settle on mere 2GB of memory,
which is the same amount their competitor's system has, and which is released on the market probably at least a year before theirs.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I think the confusion is in Game Rendering. My understanding is Sony wants all PS4 games to at least render @ 1080P 60Hz and support S3D at 30Hz 1080P. There may be some 4K games but Sony will be supporting media at 4K and maybe higher on the PS4. Sony also wants to support 5 view glassless S3D @ 1080P on a 4K TV and that sets the min spec for the PS4 10X PS3 GPU with a bandwidth to support a total of 300FPS for video streams however they occur.
Edit: Duplicate post below <grin>.
I think some people are just confused on what 4k support means. The people laughing it off are those that think it means 4k native res for games, when in reality it just means OS and video output at 4k. There may be an occasional PSN title at 4k too.
Agreed. Base functionality for both have to be the identical (if there are multiple SKUs). Any alteration will come in the form of important but supplemental parts like HDD etc. A console is not a PC and console development is always locked to the specifications. It'll just add to the dev cost of third parties as well first parties if there were fundamental differences in Sony's offerings. I don't think Sony would like to lose good graces of third parties given MS will lap up this opportunity (they've been very good with third parties this gen).
So when I was reading about OS and other functionality, it got me wondering whether 4GB is actually enough... MS is going for slower but larger quantity; makes me question why Sony didn't do something similar if they are trying to match XB3 feature for feature pertaining to OS.
With 2GB ram only, this console is dead in the water.
Sony's rumored goal is to go for faster RAM which will mitigate differences somewhat versus the higher count of the next Xbox and also won't have to deal with Kinect and stuff like an always on DVR. The next Xbox will likely have a lot of always on Apps while the PS4 won't. It should be pretty similar in practice.
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
Exactly to the both of you. Games aren't the only thing. It will be mainly for movies. The entire company is focusing on 4K. Of course their most popular entertainment product will have it.
New developments
Thats not directly related to the PS4, but it proves my point that sony is taking 4K very seriously. The PS4 will help, just like bluray, sony push 4K out to everyone.
New developments
Thats not directly related to the PS4, but it proves my point that sony is taking 4K very seriously. The PS4 will help, just like bluray, sony push 4K out to everyone.
Noone will care about 4k... Do you really think with the current state of the world economy people will buy 4k display in the next years? The answer is no. I would much prefer them (Sony and the other manufacturers) to democratize OLED displays but looks like we're nowhere near close of that. Samsung and LG were supposed to do that this year, but yields were so poor they had to push back them to 2013.
systemfehler
Member
Well you have to think beyond 2013/14 and Sony has a console, TV and movie division with exact dates in their roadmaps. They offer content and a solution to watch and even though the economy is not in great shape I don't see Apple products dusting in stores same goes for other tablets, phones, ...
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Almost everyone(here in the states) either has a 1080p\720p TV and are happy with it or they haven't even made the jump to HD because they can't afford their house payment or to put food in the fridge and outside of some nice 3D enhancements(no one seems to give s shit about 3D) you need like a 60in screen to really see the difference.
Even 4K movies are a corporate pipe dream ATLEAST for the next 4-5 years probably longer, their just desperate to push the next "big" thing they can try and market and sell but it's gonna be a giant fail boat.
Are you seriously comparing Sony to Apple?
systemfehler
Member
I also thought 3D will be a "fail boat", too bad it did not sink but is no a "standard" with nearly each new Tv and so will be 4k - not in 1-2 years but in 3-4 I bet there will be a mid-high range price TV generation with 4k.
People will always buy TVs and with so many componets built to fail after x hours/years you have to buy a new one. Right now there is no market for 4k but there was no market for 3D or tablets either - companies will create it with PR.
Why should Apple be different? Believe me every product has its fans and early adopters - there are enough "cinema freaks" who would love to jump to 48fps and 4k and with those the rest will sooner or later follow. There are still very little 3D releases but still most new TVs have the feature and that will hapen to 4k. Sony would be insane to not offer and market 4k for their TV, console and movies otherwise people would be content with what they have now. This is the whole point of "new and better" products.
With HD-ready nobody thought they ever need anything better - when the industry offers 4k people will follow.
Coming from the other thread about KZ3 tech vid, it makes me wonder if GG can get close to the pre-rendered launch trailer at 720p@30fps.
Trailer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_-tc5TQfBw&hd=1
Or is this setting the bar too high?
Trailer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_-tc5TQfBw&hd=1
Or is this setting the bar too high?
who cares when their games suck and play like crap
The Abominable Snowman
Member
So do latest rumors purport a high core dedicated CPU instead of an APU? Not even a weaker APU but no APU at all?
2GB would be a killer, literally. I doubt any next gen system has less than 3-3.5GB
2GB would be a killer, literally. I doubt any next gen system has less than 3-3.5GB
SniperHunter
Banned
stfu! I loved both KZ2 and KZ3. This is such a bad and negative mind frame you have there...
watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6hz_s2XIAU
Take it back.... NAO.
"Supporting 4096x2160/24p and 3840x2160/24,25,30p* with one single HDMI cable. The PVM-X300 is also equipped with a unique feature of evaluating video signal of 4096x2160/60p with one single HDMI cable when connected to Sonys new F55 4K camera system."
I would like to know what's going on here.
Well I played most of KZ1, and completed KZ2. Had KZ3 for months (because my brother purchased it) and didn't play it. KZ2 played like trash, story was crap, it looked good, amazing but that doesn't make it into great game. So no, I am not speaking out of my ass, I did play a few KZ games. Just my opinion. They should make engines for other Sony studios.
But I am not going to say that I am not looking forward to their new IP, because I do. Let's hope they deliver
Tallshortman
Member
Framing your comment as "who cares" would indicate you're trying to speak for a majority of people instead of just giving your opinion of the game. Clearly you don't as, while each game has it's cons, it's a fairly popular franchise.
Hmm silly me, I allways assumed this profile represented my own opinion. I guess I was wrong. I appologize.
So now you are speaking for majority?There was no "I"! How this works? aghh
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