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Jimmy Johns founder apparently hunts Elephants

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http://www.smilepolitely.com/splog/jimmy_john_is_a_big_man._with_the_photos_to_prove_it/

elephant_2.png

Man fuck this guy.

Just as bad (except not as bad, or even close) my wife doesn't want us to go their any more because of this. I'm not one to boycott stuff, but I'll follow her lead on this since it clearly upset her.
 

Chichikov

Member
Rich big game hunters are the only thing keeping several species from going extinct.
Hunting elephants in Botswana definitely isn't keeping them from going extinct.
I'm not against hunting in general but fuck that type of rich men safari hunting for bragging rights shit.
 

ymmv

Banned
I want a pic of an elephant triumphantly standing besides a trampled hunter. Fuck this guy. Scum of the earth.
 

crozier

Member
Hunting elephants in Botswana definitely isn't keeping them from going extinct.
I'm not against hunting in general but fuck that type of rich men safari hunting for bragging rights shit.
They might be assholes, but a lot of those Safaris wouldn't even exist as animal sanctuaries were it not for big game hunters. Tags are expensive and there's a massive conservation effort required to keep the animal populations stable.

This isn't the one I'm looking for, but here are a few of the facts:

http://www.conservationforce.org/rolevalueoftouristsafarihunting.html
 

Chichikov

Member
They might be assholes, but a lot of those Safaris wouldn't even as animal sanctuaries were it not for big game hunters. Tags are expensive and there's a massive conservation effort required to keep the animal populations stable.

Here's a good debate on the matter:

(wrong article....let me find it...)
The animal sanctuaries in Botswana have nothing to with big game hunters.
You probably refer to that 60 minutes piece about big game farm for exotic animals in Texas, that's a different discussion and a different issue.
Safaris like the one this guy went to do nothing for conservation of animals and to claim that Elephants would go extinct if Jimmy Johns wouldn't be allowed to hunt them is ridiculous.
 

crozier

Member
The animal sanctuaries in Botswana have nothing to with big game hunters.
You probably refer to that 60 minutes piece about big game farm for exotic animals in Texas, that's a different discussion and a different issue.
No, I'm talking specifically about Africa. See the link I posted above.

The reason elephants don't go extinct from big game hunting is because tags cost like $50k, not counting the rest of the trip, and are handed out in limited quantities not unlike tags in the US. A substantial part of the money from these trips goes towards protecting the elephants from poachers and towards conservation efforts.
 

crozier

Member
The Conservation Value of Tourist Safari Hunting

In the last quarter of the 20th Century, a new conservation tool arose from regulated sport hunting. The safari hunting industry began providing new conservation opportunities. Safari hunters were some of the first ecotourists. Their contribution has become world renown through programs such as CAMPFIRE, the Chobe Enclave Conservation Trust, BOP Parks, etc. Tourist safari hunting is the most efficient, effective, self-funding tool to conserve wildlife, promote biodiversity and to provide immediate benefits to rural people in remote areas.

IT PROVIDES IMMEDIATE TANGIBLE BENEFITS TO RURAL PEOPLE

Is a source of high pay employment providing dignity and self-determination;
Is a source of basic public services (medicine, bore holes, etc.) where governments can't otherwise provide them;
Stimulates secondary industries and employment while preserving traditional culture;
Converts wildlife from a liability to an asset-from being intolerable pests and nuisances to "game animal" status;
Converts wildlife habitat to a higher revenue producing land use; Promotes bottom up development and human well-being; Is a major source of revenue wherever it exists;
Has the potential to generate more income for land owners from a given number of wild animals than wildlife cropping, ranching and viewing tourism;
Provides the highest revenue per tourist of any ecotourism activity;
Often occurs in remote areas where no other means are available to improve human
well-being and the quality and duration of human life;
Can occur even where other land uses are impractical or impossible.

IT PROVIDES THE HIGHEST LEVEL CONSERVATION BENEFITS

Gives animals their highest lawful, positive, economic value in the remote bush;
Reduces poaching through physical presence, reporting, funding and by creating an atmosphere of local intolerance;
Creates wildlife and habitat conservation incentives locally and nationally;
Provides badly needed funding, locally and nationally;
Stimulates management directed at supporting the population until the age it is of trophy quality;
Provides means of having game scouts in remote locations at no cost to governing authorities;
Provides a primary rationale for conservation.

IT HAS NO DETRIMENTAL BIOLOGICAL IMPACT

It is insignificant in animal take, and, therefore, of low risk to the population;
It is low in habitat disturbance because of the low volume of tourist hunters and their desire for a natural experience;
It is self-limiting as tourists lost interest automatically when trophy quality decreases;
To maintain trophy quality, quotas are set far lower than real sustainable yield, resulting in a far greater margin of safety;
It is focused on a small, select segment of surplus adult males past breeding prime:
Example: In Zimbabwe, only 150 elephants per year are removed from a population of 80,000 animals (0.2 of 1%); there is scientific evidence that removal of the old bulls enhance breeding by allowing a greater number of more vigorous males to participate.
Example: In Mongolia, only 20 argali rams are removed annually from a population of 20,000 individuals (0.1 of 1%);
Example: In Khyrgyzstan, only 16 argali rams are taken annually from a population of 7,500 (0.21 of 1%).
It is easy to monitor, regulate and to manage adaptively;
It is a legal activity and positive value for wildlife;
It occurs where little or no other management and conservation incentive would exist but for it, outside of parks and protected areas.

TOURIST HUNTING IS AN EXCEPTIONAL CONSERVATION TOOL

It is the principal conservation tool beyond the boarders of protected areas where most wildlife and habitat still exist and the need is greatest (Parks are limited to 5% of habitat);
It is self-funding and self-sufficient-tourist hunters pay their own way;
Tourist hunters spend prodigious amounts, by far the highest tourist spending per tourist and per animal;
Requires no government capital investment or donor agency support;
It is one of the most highly taxed, licensed and intensively regulated activities in the world because of the revenue it generates and low cost of monitoring due to its low volume;
Quotas are set to maintain competitive trophy quality, which is far less than the level of sustainable offtake;
It is efficient and the most cost effective method of financing conservation; It is a special category of sustainable use that can be put to immediate use.

http://www.conservationforce.org/rolevalueoftouristsafarihunting.html
 

Chichikov

Member
No, I'm talking specifically about Africa. See the link I posted above.

The reason elephants don't go extinct from big game hunting is because tags cost like $50k, not counting the rest of the trip, and are handed out in limited quantities not unlike tags in the US. A substantial part of the money from these trips goes towards protecting the elephants from poachers and towards conservation efforts.
The link you provided is a brochure for a company that does tourist hunting trips.
Also, I never claimed that big game hunting cause elephants to go extinct (though illegal hunting might cause it) you claimed it prevent them from doing so, which is a claim that I think is bullshit.

Again, I'm not against to hunting in general (and hunters have been great allies for environmental causes, at least in the US) but this is bullshit ego-hunting, they set up rich people who wouldn't survive a day in the wild for super easy big game kills for bragging rights.
I just don't think that's a good enough reason to kill an Elephant.
 
Fuck this fuck.
Yeah big up you shot a massive animal from a distance with a gun. Well done.

Unless you had to fight off the elephant as it was in musk and trampled all over your shit and tried to kill you, there is no reason to kill them.

Same with any animal really, a friend visited someone in the USA who had a bear stuffed in his house. Apparently it tried to attack him in the forest.
So he escapes and then decided to go back at a later date and kill it and stuff it to put in his house. Makes me sick.
 

crozier

Member
The link you provided is a brochure for a company that does tourist hunting trips.
Then look elsewhere. It's a commonly known fact that trophy hunting is a form of conservation effort in Africa...this really isn't debatable.

I won't argue that these hunters are assholes, but at the same time what other incentive does Africa have to keep their many endangered species from getting poached into oblivion? Sometimes the right thing is done for the wrong reason...this is one of those instances. I'm not saying it's perfectly executed in all cases, but it's the best (IMO) solution at the moment.
 
Then look elsewhere. It's a commonly known fact that trophy hunting is a form of conservation effort in Africa...this really isn't debatable.

I won't argue that these hunters are assholes, but at the same time what other incentive does Africa have to keep their many endangered species from getting poached into oblivion? Sometimes the right thing is done for the wrong reason...this is one of those instances. I'm not saying it's perfectly executed in all cases, but it's the best (IMO) solution at the moment.

i.e., do my arguing for me.

I wonder how many people pissed off at this guy buy Chinese goods.

I wonder if this argument will ever not be used?
 

Chichikov

Member
Then look elsewhere. It's a commonly known fact that trophy hunting is a form of conservation effort in Africa...this really isn't debatable.
People use hunting as a conservation tactic that is true, but for elephants in Botswana?
Yeah, no.

I won't argue that these hunters are assholes, but at the same time what other incentive does Africa have to keep their many endangered species from getting poached into oblivion? Sometimes the right thing is done for the wrong reason...this is one of those instances. I'm not saying it's perfectly executed in all cases, but it's the best (IMO) solution at the moment.
And what incentives does the US has to protect the bald eagle?
Not to mention that there are many endangered species that Botswana protects that are not hunted by rich tourists.
 

watershed

Banned
I wonder how many people pissed off at this guy buy Chinese goods.

Every single thread on gaf dealing with any issue always gets at least one of these replies. Everyone is a hypocrite because no one is an angel. I get that. Therefore we should never complain, never be outraged, and never verbalize any sense of moral or ethical right or wrong?
 
Every single thread on gaf dealing with any issue always gets at least one of these replies. Everyone is a hypocrite because no one is an angel. I get that. Therefore we should never complain, never be outraged, and never verbalize any sense of moral or ethical right or wrong?

It's the worst kind of shit, drive-by posting. I'm guessing it's hard to have a discussion for those people and they can't formulate any valid responses so that's the go to. SHould be bannable at this point.
 

raindoc

Member
Poaching isn't the main reason for the dwindling number of wildlife in africa, human expansion is. As long as hunting reservations are profitable, that land, natural habitat for countless of species, won't be turned into farmland - this is the main reason why big game hunting is considered "conservational", including elephants in Botswana.
 

crozier

Member
People use hunting as a conservation tactic that is true, but for elephants in Botswana?
Yeah, no.

Official letter regarding 2013 hunting in Botswana:

HUNTING IN BOTSWANA - STATEMENT TO VALUED CLIENTS, AGENTS AND FRIENDS

Over the last 5 years, Botswana's trophy hunting industry has been subjected to some extensive changes to areas available for hunting, and changes in land use in other areas where photographic and hunting operations have been combined - these changes have given rise to much speculation amongst the international hunting fraternity: the Botswana Wildlife Management Association wishes to confirm that from the end of this year big game hunting will continue in the following concessions:

Butler &Holbrow Safaris / Chobe Enclave CH1/2 - end of 2013

Calitz Hunting Safaris / Mababe NG 41 - end of 2017

In spite of draconian cuts in quota for other species, elephant remain the flagship species in Botswana and sustainable offtake of this species will continue under the guidance and direction of the Botswana Government. Recent aerial surveys conducted by independent researchers, in collaboration with Government and the Association, have determined that the Botswana elephant population is stable and in some parts of the country are considered locally over-abundant. The Special Elephant Quota, which is auctioned annually to industry members and stakeholders, will continue in select areas for the benefit of local communities and for elephant conservation and management as a whole. Private research on tusk weights/population distribution and densities, supported by outfitters, is ongoing and will continue to inform Botswana's Wildlife Management Authority.

Assurances have been made to the industry by senior members of Government during the course of the last five years that elephant hunting will continue in Botswana; in the meantime, outfitters remain committed to ongoing discussion and consultation with Government to determine the way forward. Hunting on game ranches is unchanged. Please contact your safari outfitter or the Botswana Wildlife Management Association (botswanawildlife@yahoo.com or debbie@mochaba.net) for any further information or confirmation you may require.

http://www.huntingreport.com/worldupdate.cfm?articleid=594

And what incentives does the US has to protect the bald eagle?
Are you really comparing the poaching problems in Africa with those in the U.S.? A simple law is typically enough to persuade most Americans to avoid a particular species. Africans still poach under threat of death.
 
Official letter regarding 2013 hunting in Botswana:



http://www.huntingreport.com/worldupdate.cfm?articleid=594


Are you really comparing the poaching problems in Africa with those in the U.S.? A simple law is typically enough to persuade most Americans to avoid a particular species. Africans still poach under threat of death.

I see no research and no link to any sort of information other than a pro-hunting institution. It doesn't matter though, arguments aren't being made that deserve any serious discussion.
 

codhand

Member
Jimmy John's are independently owned, before you go starting a boycott.

Also the Avacado on wheat with alfalfa sprouts is amazing.
 

cheststrongwell

my cake, fuck off
Every single thread on gaf dealing with any issue always gets at least one of these replies. Everyone is a hypocrite because no one is an angel. I get that. Therefore we should never complain, never be outraged, and never verbalize any sense of moral or ethical right or wrong?

Boycotting this guy won't do anything to help African Elephants from going extinct. I understand not being down with animals being hunted for trophies. It doesn't really bother me, unless that hunting is actually leading to an animals extinction.

I posted the China thing after reading 70% of poached ivory goes to them. It was a dumb post, but I wasn't trying to do a "drive by." I understand it would be nearly impossible to not buy anything made in China.
 

Chichikov

Member
Official letter regarding 2013 hunting in Botswana:



http://www.huntingreport.com/worldupdate.cfm?articleid=594
What point are you exactly arguing?
I don't think anyone claimed that they break the Botswanan law.

Are you really comparing the poaching problems in Africa with those in the U.S.? A simple law is typically enough to persuade most Americans to avoid a particular species. Africans still poach under threat of death.
Wait, and the few elephant tags the Botswana does issue stop the poachers?
Again, what point are you arguing exactly?

And FYI, Botswana has probably the most successful elephant conservation programs in the world, and big game hunting has little impact on it one way or the other.
 

watershed

Banned
Boycotting this guy won't do anything to help African Elephants from going extinct. I understand not being down with animals being hunted for trophies. It doesn't really bother me, unless that hunting is actually leading to an animals extinction.

I posted the China thing after reading 70% of poached ivory goes to them. It was a dumb post, but I wasn't trying to do a "drive by." I understand it would be nearly impossible to not buy anything made in China.

Then in this case, your second post is a lot better than your first.
 

Visceir

Member
I think I'd be fine with this if those rich people pay enough for the hunt of 1 to guarantee 2 - 3 elephant' safe living environments.
 

Gannd

Banned
I'm guessing these are all east coast places? Don't recall seeing either in California.

There is one in Santa Clara I know. But, when I'm back home and want a sandwich anything other than Tommy's is complete and utter shit.
 
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