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Valhelm · Apr 23, 2015

Quite often on the internet, and especially on Gaf, I see people blaming all prejudice against queer people on religion. A lot of people suggest a world without religion would have no homophobia whatsoever, and people would be able to love who they want without repercussions.

But I'm not so sure. If religion is the impetus behind anti-gay bias, what caused it in the first place? There had to be a reason for ancient Jews to encode homophobia into their law, and a reason for later Jews, Christians, and Muslims to follow this. Given that Christians had no issue with abandoning restrictions on pork, shellfish, and mixed fabric, it seems pretty obvious that homophobia goes beyond faith. If it didn't, Roman-era Christians wouldn't have kept that restriction.

The prevalence of homophobia in some non-Abrahamic cultures also makes me think that homophobia has more to do with simple ignorance and repulsion than religion. Tons of traditional cultures, like ancient Athens, 15th century Italy, 10th century Japan, and contemporary Papua New Guinea, it's okay for an adult man to have sex with a teenager. But two adults being together is much more taboo.

I think that because most men feel no attraction to other grown men, across the world's cultures, they're inclined to prohibit homosexuality through law. It doesn't hurt them, or anybody, but many guys think it's gross, so they prohibit it. Religion is just a vehicle of doing so.

What are your thoughts?

Razmos · Apr 23, 2015

I think that people are always going to shit on or be afraid of whatever they perceive as "different"

Religion isn't the root cause of homophobia, but it's practically one big megaphone for it.

CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls · Apr 23, 2015

If it hadn't been mentioned in religious scripture, no one would have a reason to be against it in the first place. Because it is, and because it is somehow seen as "unnatural" it is therefore railed against as a sin before god.

Air · Apr 23, 2015

Well I know non religious homophobic people, but I think the simple answer is ignorance. Mix in ignorant people in positions of power and you get religious intolerance. The shape of this intolerance has changed, but the root of it I would say is just lack of knowledge/ empathy of gay people.

Shmuppers · Apr 23, 2015

I don't buy into the idea that entire concept of religion was established solely for the purpose of justifying homophobia. People made religion so that they could readily answer life's questions.

In my opinion, homophobia is fueled by repulsion, ignorance, etc etc.

SwampFox · Apr 23, 2015

Some people just don't like people different from them. I believe it is as simple as that. Same deal with racism, but I don't mean to steer this thread into that conversation.

FiggyCal · Apr 23, 2015

I think the prevalence of Islama\ophobia among the "new atheists" shows intolerance really isn't exclusive to religious people. I'm guessing that homophobia would still exist without religion.

Ventara · Apr 23, 2015

Neither. Though some religious people do play a part in homophobia.

webkatt · Apr 23, 2015

Homophobia would still exist without religion.

Religion would still exist if homophobia did not.

So, no OP, Just no.

……forgetit · Apr 23, 2015

Neither, some justify their homophobia with religion, I've also known homophobic atheists though.

Lamel · Apr 23, 2015

I think homophobia is generally caused by the idea of homosexuality being very different from the norm.

ShadowKingpin · Apr 23, 2015

Razmos said:
Religion isn't the root cause of homophobia, but it's practically one big megaphone for it.

This.

Lamel said:
I think homophobia is generally caused by the idea of homosexuality being very different from the norm.

But, what is 'the norm'? You mean heterosexual couples? I have a good feeling that religion helped boost the 'norms' we have today.

Thequietone · Apr 23, 2015

Back then gay couples meant less children which means less people in the future to go to church/worship. That is why religion originally put them as a sin in their holy books, in my opinion. I think regardless if there weren't a religion to discriminate against LGBTQ people there would still be people prejudice against them. Humans always have to divide each group of people into others, because, they fear difference. I wish we didn't but so many people do.

DrGonzo615 · Apr 23, 2015

People project their own values into religion and cherry pick the parts that suit them.

So the short answer is sort of yes in both cases but sort of no.

Somnid · Apr 23, 2015

The former. There are plenty of places that either acknowledged some forms of homosexuality or simply didn't categorize such activities before Christianity started pushing their agenda down everyone's throats. Christianity also believes in a unified self that turned it into an identity rather than a set of personal preferences.

lazygecko · Apr 23, 2015

Arbitrary tribalism comes in many shapes and sizes. Religion or no religion. When our world views are challenged we'll grasp at whatever we can reach to rationalize our hate.

shinra-bansho · Apr 23, 2015

I understand the first clause of the question... I don't know what exactly the second clause is supposed to mean.

Religion typically comes about through attempts to explain phenomena beyond contemporary scientific knowledge. And yes, whence organised, religion becomes a vehicle to impose other certain behaviours or beliefs.

Skellig Gra · Apr 23, 2015

Interestingly I thought you were going from another angle. At least in Christianity, many homosexuals find solace in lives of religious devotion to avoid the scrutiny of never getting married or being with someone of the opposite sex. If they could function normally in society with out being outcasts would there have been enough people to run the church over the years?

Shuggananas · Apr 23, 2015

ShadowKingpin said:
But, what is 'the norm'? You mean heterosexual couples? I have a good feeling that religion helped boost the 'norms' we have today.

Not dying did actually. The natural breeding instinct was there before religion, I'm gonna guess.

Mr. Giggles · Apr 23, 2015

Wow.

Very thought provoking post OP.

Geez, I dunno really... If you believe in god and believe that he explicitly forbids it then I would say homophobia is born from religion.

BUT.

If you take an atheistic point of view, well, your hypothesis could hold some weight.

Jackpot · Apr 23, 2015

Religion definitely exacerbates a lot of existing prejudices.

The Technomancer · Apr 23, 2015

Like in many other cases religion is just an integral part of the feedback loop of justification that amplifies "gay people are icky" into "gay people are sinners and corrupters"

LurkerPrime · Apr 23, 2015

Neither is accurate. Homophobia is a reflexive fear of something different, and such reactions have no doubt existed since the beginnings of humanity. It has less to do with the religion, and more to do with the people wielding said religion in an attempt to legitimise their stance.

Religion is a tool for people to use, nothing more. (And that's ok, so long as it's not being weaponised.)

FiggyCal · Apr 23, 2015

ShadowKingpin said:
This.

But, what is 'the norm'? You mean heterosexual couples? I have a good feeling that religion helped boost the 'norms' we have today.

I doubt that the Bible has any serious effects on people's actual sexuality.

The fact that the vast majority of people are heterosexual means that a minority will be seen as different.

Bizazedo · Apr 23, 2015

ShadowKingpin said:
But, what is 'the norm'? You mean heterosexual couples? I have a good feeling that religion helped boost the 'norms' we have today.

It depends on what you mean by "normal"

.

It's normal for a portion of the population to be homosexual, but I'd argue that it's normal for the majority of the population to be heterosexual due to that whole annoying procreation thing. That can also mean that you can say homosexuality is not the "norm" while simultaneously endorsing, supporting, and being okay with it.

It's just nuance.

If one follows that line of thought, that's why heterosexuality is the "norm". Sheer numbers and procreations.

The fear and paranoia around non hetero lifestyles is the real issue.

bennywhatever · Apr 23, 2015

I think homophobia would still exist without religion. Religion just gives "valid" reasoning behind it. Without religion, there would be nothing to substantiate a homophobic claim.

I'm religious and know a ton of welcoming, great religious people that love the gay community. I don't know what the second part of your sentence meant, but if it's "You have to be homophobic to be religious," then that's just false.

HiredN00bs · Apr 23, 2015

FiggyCal said:
I think the prevalence of Islamaphobia among the "new atheists" shows intolerance really isn't exclusive to religious people. I'm guessing that homophobia would still exist without religion.

Islamaphobia? Why would anyone have any reason to fear Islam?

Laevateinn · Apr 23, 2015

Homophobia was put into the Torah because it was written by people who lived in the worst part of the world surrounded by a bunch of people who hated them. You couldn't do things that would limit their reproductive capabilities because they needed all the manpower they could get.

FiggyCal · Apr 23, 2015

HiredN00bs said:
Why would anyone have any reason to fear Islam?

Exactly!

Valhelm · Apr 23, 2015

Somnid said:
The former. There are plenty of places that either acknowledged some forms of homosexuality or simply didn't categorize such activities before Christianity started pushing their agenda down everyone's throats. Christianity also believes in a unified self that turned it into an identity rather than a set of personal preferences.

But why was Christianity homophobic to begin with?

-COOLIO- · Apr 23, 2015

i think there would currently be less homophobia without religion. can you imagine how far behind black rights would be if the bible explicitly said that black people were evil or something?

ShadowKingpin · Apr 23, 2015

Shuggananas said:
Not dying did actually. The natural breeding instinct was there before religion, I'm gonna guess.

That was a given. It's a necessity for the advancement of Human Beings.

Bizazedo said:
It depends on what you mean by "normal" .

It's normal for a portion of the population to be homosexual, but I'd argue that it's normal for the majority of the population to be heterosexual due to that whole annoying procreation thing. That can also mean that you can say homosexuality is not the "norm" while simultaneously endorsing, supporting, and being okay with it.

It's just nuance.

If one follows that line of thought, that's why heterosexuality is the "norm". Sheer numbers and procreations.

The fear and paranoia around non hetero lifestyles is the real issue.

Homosexuality is a norm for me, but I was always under the impression that Religion had a hand in the creation of why society thinks the way they do today.

FiggyCal said:
I doubt that the Bible has any serious effects on people's actual sexuality.

The fact that the vast majority of people are heterosexual means that a minority will be seen as different.

The hate towards Homosexuality today due to people's interpretations of the Bible is a huge cause. I do see your point about being looked at differently as the Minority, but Religion is far from innocent on this.

Skellig Gra · Apr 23, 2015

HiredN00bs said:
Islamaphobia? Why would anyone have any reason to fear Islam?

Well its a bit of a misnomer. People aren't afraid of the religion itself. They are afraid of religious extremists.

Chairman Yang · Apr 23, 2015

The examples in the OP make it clear that homosexuality has been tolerated (or not tolerated) to varying degrees in different cultures. Clearly, culture has a powerful effect on the prevalence and fervour of homophobia.

The question now becomes: does religion have an effect on culture? To me, the answer is obviously yes. Then, it's equally obvious that religion can have a powerful effect on the prevalence and fervour of homophobia.

mcarlie · Apr 23, 2015

Valhelm said:
Given that Christians had no issue with abandoning restrictions on pork, shellfish, and mixed fabric, it seems pretty obvious that homophobia goes beyond faith.

It's not a case of arbitrarily affirming one law and ignoring others, the dietary laws, circumcision and others are mentioned in the New Testament as things that Christians aren't supposed to follow.

Valhelm · Apr 23, 2015

HiredN00bs said:
Islamaphobia? Why would anyone have any reason to fear Islam?

You know what they mean. Semantic arguments about the "phobia" suffix are pointless.

Kai Dracon · Apr 23, 2015

Religion does make it easier to organize a widespread homophobic campaign, since it provides a literal appeal to authority.

But as we've seen in Russia, you don't need religion for that. With sufficient propaganda taking advantage of people's fears and need to blame their problems on an "other", you can get people to hop onboard the hate train.

I think it might be harder to deprogram people whose phobias and excuses are based in a religion however, because religions provide people with a single, absolute identity. Anything that challenges claims made in the name of their religion can scare them because it raises the possibility their religion isn't right about everything.

Frog-fu · Apr 23, 2015

Homophobia has not led to the creation of any religion I know of it. It is simply one antequated principle amongst a host of others.

Rabbi_Vole · Apr 23, 2015

What?

xenist · Apr 23, 2015

Religion just put a nice coat of mortal sin over the innate human reaction to feel awkward towards the different.

Servbot24 · Apr 23, 2015

Both religion and homophobia stem from human nature. I think you're just looking for a chance to bash religion. You don't need to make up weird threads like this to do that.

HiredN00bs · Apr 23, 2015

Valhelm said:
You know what they mean. Semantic arguments about the "phobia" suffix are pointless.

I was actually being sarcastic. People should be afraid of Islam, its Abrahamic predecessors, and all religions that perpetuate horrendously wicked ideas. They should relentlessly oppose them.

Bizazedo · Apr 23, 2015

ShadowKingpin said:
Homosexuality is a norm for me, but I was always under the impression that Religion had a hand in the creation of why society thinks the way they do today.

I don't believe it had a hand in it, it just reflected the opinions of the time. Saying the problem originated with religion is really a gross oversimplification of the issue while at the same time ignoring the fact that people, themselves, fear and hate that which is different. Usually

.

riotous · Apr 23, 2015

Neither?

I'd say illusory superiority and the human desire to proclaim thyself righteous are responsible for both religion and homophobia for many. Bad mouthing other's makes people feel good about themselves without having to put any effort into actually being a good person.

But humanity is too complex to boil things down so simply.

Somnid · Apr 23, 2015

Valhelm said:
But why was Christianity homophobic to begin with?

How does any group reputation happen? It's arbitrary and organic. One person had a bad experience or made an observation they thought was smart and other people listened and incorporated it without questioning it and because they were the minority it's easy enough to villainize them by making them seem weird.

Valhelm · Apr 23, 2015

mcarlie said:
It's not a case of arbitrarily affirming one law and ignoring others, the dietary laws, circumcision and others are mentioned in the New Testament as things that Christians aren't supposed to follow.

It's pretty well-accepted that a group of Roman Christians decided which rules to follow and which to ignore.

FiggyCal · Apr 23, 2015

-COOLIO- said:
i think there would currently be less homophobia without religion. can you imagine how far behind black rights would be if the bible explicitly said that black people were evil or something?

But people that were opposed to black rights did often use the Bible to support their message. It's all in the interpretation. Religious people can seriously read the old testament and see how it explicitly bans eating shellfish and go on and do it anyway. At the same time, another religious person might read the passage about how gay sex is an abomination and still support gay rights. What the Bible says and what people take out of it are two different things.

Chairman Yang · Apr 23, 2015

Servbot24 said:
Both religion and homophobia stem from human nature. I think you're just looking for a chance to bash religion. You don't need to make up weird threads like this to do that.

This is a terrible post with no value. There's clearly discussion to be had about the OP's premise, despite your dismissive one-sentence "argument" that doesn't actually address half the points made in this thread.

Tacitus_ · Apr 23, 2015

Ancient greeks & romans were big on gay sex - as long as you were on top.

phanphare · Apr 23, 2015

people are responsible for religion, people are responsible for how they interpret their religion, and people are responsible for homophobia. we're so blame-adverse in today's society, always side-stepping the real issues for temporary band-aids. religion isn't the problem and it never was. if I really wanted to I could quote some Bible verses and use them to justify murdering someone. that doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with the religion itself, it means there's something wrong with me and how I was using a religion or religious text to justify a wrong.

I see people bash religion as a whole all the time (never mind how ridiculous it is to group "religious people" together as a whole) and they are just as guilty of hiding behind religion as the people they think they're bashing. we as a whole need to take more responsibility for ourselves, our actions, and the actions of others.

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