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[Mango The Magician]

Uhhh...neither. Homophobia is just a product of Xenophobia. it's just ignorance.

Certain people within certain religions however, do play a part in it, but even then not all of them are intentionally homophobic.

 

[injurai]

I would say that religion and homophobia both stem from the same source, man's fear of what he doesn't understand.

Nah. I think religion attempts to answer life's mysteries and builds in sin and fear of falling out of favor with god. When religion attempts to explain sex, reproduction, penis and vagina, and heterosexual attraction. That is attributed to god. People see creating life as an imperative. They come to recognize rape, casual and unprotected sex as dangerous. They believe in nuclear families with planned children. They come to think homosexual relations are giving into the same temptations that lead to rape. This is where homophobia stems from.

It's not fearing that he doesn't understand homosexuality. It's building up a system in attempts to explain everything that is build around fear. That relegates homosexuality. As a result the homophobia stems from that construct.

 

[BamfMeat]

What the hell arguments can atheists have against gay people?

 

[stufte]

What the hell arguments can atheists have against gay people?

No good ones, but ones that definitely comes up outside of a religious context is that it's "gross" or that it's "Not Natural". Atheism doesn't preclude intolerance of homosexuals.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

What the hell arguments can atheists have against gay people?

"It's not natural", "It's goes against evolutionary needs", "You're shrinking the gene pool by supporting or being gay", "Homosexually and other sexual desires can be controlled and gay people can have normal romantic and sexual relationships with the opposite sex".

That's just the few I heard, all are pretty bad arguments.

 

[soul creator]

I think debating issues in terms of "if X was gone, negative thing Y would no longer occur!" is a bit of a distraction. "if X was gone, negative thing Y would be less likely to occur" is I think something that's actually capable of being discussed, and potentially studied (like the link I already posted)

Do I think less religious influence (especially if we're speaking specifically about the big monotheistic, patriarchal religions) would magically solve all instances of homophobia? Of course not. Do I think less religious influence (again, speaking of the biggest offenders like many flavors of Christianity and Islam) make a society as a whole less likely to be homophobic? I think so, and there is some data that bears that out.

As mentioned, the type of religion obviously influences things, since "religion" can be anything from someone who has prayed once in their life, and only when someone was dying, all the way to someone whose entire life 24/7 is dictated by the rules described in an ancient text. Slave holders, abolitionists, cafeteria Christians, Jesus Camp Christians, Martin Luther King, Jerry Falwell, etc. are all "true Christians", after all.

So uh...yeah. Define "religion" for the discussion, and frame things in terms of more likely/less likely, and that's a question that probably can be answered.

 

[KmA]

I think most people find it easier to blame religion. Which is sad because there are plenty of queer people that find solace in religion.

Most straight people don't realize how homophobia exists if it isn't blatant. It doesn't only come in the form of kicking kids out of houses, not being able to get married, etc. Those are just byproducts of a general heteronormative culture. I've been around plenty of straight men who were completely off-put by my presence once I revealed I was gay despite it being pretty obvious their ignorance didn't stem from religion.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

That is one binary-ass way of thinking

Hate comes from people, some of whom twist nice ideas into bludgeons to use against people they don't like, and some of whom need no overarching policies to hate others.

 

[MagnaderAlpha]

Humanity is responsible for both homophobia and religion, as well as prejudices against other races, genders, abuse of both physical and mental kind, superiority complexes, the greed of money and the need to control. In the end, strip away any of the "reasons" people think give birth to such hatred and evil, and well just find other "reasons" to hate each other. Tis the way of mankind.

 

[LOLDSFAN]

But I'm not so sure. If religion is the impetus behind anti-gay bias, what caused it in the first place? There had to be a reason for ancient Jews to encode homophobia into their law, and a reason for later Jews, Christians, and Muslims to follow this. Given that Christians had no issue with abandoning restrictions on pork, shellfish, and mixed fabric, it seems pretty obvious that homophobia goes beyond faith. If it didn't, Roman-era Christians wouldn't have kept that restriction.

Restrictions on pork, shellfish and mixed fabric were for the ancient Jews during the Old Covenant. Homosexuality as a sin can be seen in both the Old and New Covenant so saying it "goes beyond faith" isn't very accurate in regards to Christianity.

Now to your point, human nature is responsible for homophobia.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Homophobia was before religion

 

[kamineko]

I only know enough to comment on Christianity, not religion globally.

My personal opinion on Paul's letters is that he was writing and commenting on common social practices in Greece and Rome 2000 years ago because that is, in fact, what he was doing.

Paul was focused on establishing and strengthening the new church. His concerns over sexual practices in ancient Rome have little to nothing to do with, say, gay marriage. The modern concept of homosexuality did not exist at that time.

The church, so far as I know, had no official stance on homosexuality until Saint Thomas Aquinas decided to systematize church law by throwing Paul and Aristotle into a blender. I believe this was approximately 1,200 years after Paul's death. This was a fateful decision with long-lasting ramifications, even if contemporary fundamentalists know nothing about ancient history, Aquinas, or Aristotle.

The Christian religion is not, by nature, homophobic. One must, in fact, make many leaps of logic to assert that it is inherently so. Such beliefs were bolted-on after the fact, and it remains so to this day.

Do bigots use Christianity to rationalize their bigotry? Absolutely. Neither one causes the other. They have simply been engaged in a poorly conceived, albeit effective, partnership.

 

[Foffy]

Religion promotes a sense of dogma that creates a social structure of "Us vs Them", which society has dangerously inherited from that point of reference. To label people good or bad comes from subjective dogma, which religion holds as the leader pillar that mess stems from.

Religion is obviously the cause of homophobia today, if that's the grounds we're considering. How else can one be irked by human variation other than being literally bullshitted into the idea that sexual variation is a problem? It's a learned response, and most of that learning comes from miasma that says "gay is bad", which is primarily religious nonsense. Occasionally you'll hear someone use it in the vein of "population control", but ignorance is an issue for even non-faith people, as well.

It's a learned idea, but it's mostly learned in the domain of religion, which is always looking backwards in time for validation, and never taking present data into account.

 

[TheOctodad]

I would argue that religion often serves as a vehicle for people's biases and hate. Simple as that.

 

[SuperEpicGuy]

If it hadn't been mentioned in religious scripture, no one would have a reason to be against it in the first place. Because it is, and because it is somehow seen as "unnatural" it is therefore railed against as a sin before god.

Well then how did black racism came to be? I feel that it's people who were part of a dominant view of the world just bullied the minorities for their own fun since they didn't share similar views.

 

[Demon Ice]

Religion may not be the original cause of homophobia but it is probably the single biggest reason homophobia is *still* so prevalent today in the 21st century.

I mean think about it. We live in an age of incredible technological and scientific advancement, and yet people still have hangups over sexual orientation. It just doesn't fit.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Well then how did black racism came to be? I feel that it's people who were part of a dominant view of the world just bullied the minorities for their own fun since they didn't share similar views.

Pretty well documented on how the Bible was (and occasionally still is) misused to justify slavery

I doubt they asked them about their "views" at all back then

 

[SnakeSlashRO]

Sex with a member of the opposite sex has a reason outside of desire. It's logical as it helps further a species.

Sex with a member of the same sex serves no reason other than to fill a desire... Maybe sanitary reason too? Some body parts are designed/created/evolved (whatever you believe) for sexual intercourse, while other body parts have no significant sexual reproductive function.

People can and should love whomever they want, but homosexuality is lost on me, purely for the sexual part. If anything I think it's due to hormones... a man with female chemistry will want female things.

people are entitled to their beliefs however.

 

[SnakeSlashRO]

Well then how did black racism came to be? I feel that it's people who were part of a dominant view of the world just bullied the minorities for their own fun since they didn't share similar views.

I love how in all conversations about gays, blacks get dragged in.

What are you arguing? Just because there is a scripture or some writing in a biblical context written down, doesn't mean people are going to follow it. Hell there are gay Christians and Jews.

 

[Ishida]

Neither. They can be used to make terrible excuses for one another, though.

 

[Surface of Me]

Humans dont like others being different. So, neither. One needs only to look at Russia's current social climate around LBGT to see that.

 

[danm999]

I don't think religion is responsible for homophobia given I've known religious people who believe in equal rights for LGBT people. So at the very least interpretations of religion exist that don't rely on homophobia.

What I do think though is that religion can often provide an intellectually lazy get out for a homophobe. I've had a few conversations in my life where someone says something about gays being a problem, and I ask them why and they might answer "the Bible says so".

And deep down I suspect the real reason is they find homosexuality frightening or disgusting or have just never seriously thought about it, but don't/can't articulate that, so defer to a religious authority.

 

[Onemic]

The whole "if there was no religion there would be no homophobia" is one of the most bullshit statements I've ever heard. I've really ever heard it on GAF too, because if you really think critically about it, it should be quite obvious that this wouldnt be the case. It's the closest thing that I could actually call atheist propaganda...which sounds weird as fuck to me honestly lol.

You have places like China and North Korea, both largely atheist states, that are not receptive to gay people. It's simply the fear of someone being different than you are. Having no religion wouldnt change anything.

 

[Stevetopsy]

Sex with a member of the opposite sex has a reason outside of desire. It's logical as it helps further a species.

Sex with a member of the same sex serves no reason other than to fill a desire... Maybe sanitary reason too? Some body parts are designed/created/evolved (whatever you believe) for sexual intercourse, while other body parts have no significant sexual reproductive function.

People can and should love whomever they want, but homosexuality is lost on me, purely for the sexual part. If anything I think it's due to hormones... a man with female chemistry will want female things.

people are entitled to their beliefs however.

Does this mean you think every time a straight couple has sex it's to get pregnant? Or what about couples that for health reasons aren't able to conceive? Is there no reason for them to have sex now? Or what little reason there is in your eyes.. is it rendered meaningless in light of not going into it with the intention of procreating? Most times people have sex, it's for pleasure. Straight or Gay.

I don't see how a man can find another man attractive either since i'm straight but that doesn't mean I can't imagine them wanting to be sexually intimate with their partner in the same way I'd want to be with mine.

 

[Ikael]

Homophobia, just like any other human moral impulse ever, was just a directive to ensure the survival of society back in the days where your tribe / village could hardly afford to loose one healthy individual fit for reproduction just because he / she didn't "want" to have children. See also how sterile couples were demonized as well back in the days too.

In order to justify said directive, homophobia was thus born, along with a huge set of rationalizations for that hatred that tried to diverge the social practice of ostrasizing gays (or people without children in general) from its initial survivalist purpouse. Both religion (it is sinful!) and science (it is an illness!) were used as arguments in order to keep perpetuating the conduct of homosexual shaming.

As society evolved, homophobia became less and less useful, and thus it started to die, unsurprisingly, first in the biggest, less fertility-dependant metropolis and civilizations, despite of the efforts of the old guard of trying to keep the hatred alive, acting as old robots with an outdated program running inside their brains.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Sex with a member of the opposite sex has a reason outside of desire. It's logical as it helps further a species.

Sex with a member of the same sex serves no reason other than to fill a desire... Maybe sanitary reason too? Some body parts are designed/created/evolved (whatever you believe) for sexual intercourse, while other body parts have no significant sexual reproductive function.

People can and should love whomever they want, but homosexuality is lost on me, purely for the sexual part. If anything I think it's due to hormones... a man with female chemistry will want female things.

people are entitled to their beliefs however.

This is also another arguement against homosexuallity that atheists being up. Not to say you're against same sex relationships, SnakeSlash. I'm just point out another argument they tend to bring up.

Sex serves a primary and a secondary purpose. Its first purpose is to reproduce, second purpose is for pleasure. Humans mostly focus on the secondary purpose. We don't have sex just for the sole purpose of impregnating someone and reproducing, most of us just do it for the sheer pleasure it gives and reproduction is an afterthought unless planned. Thing is, humans are completely illogical, so saying something as "It's logical as it helps further a species" doesn't make sense because we're not logical, we're emotionally driven, social creatures. We have sex for the fun of it mostly, regardless of what sexuality we are.

 

[Zoc]

Back then gay couples meant less children which means less people in the future to go to church/worship. That is why religion originally put them as a sin in their holy books, in my opinion.

Yes, exactly.

It's easy to see why homophobia is so successful. Say you start out with two societies: one says that you can marry whoever you want, have kids or not, you are free. The other says you must marry a person of the opposite sex and have as many kids as possible.

After a few generations, which society do you think will have more people? Which will have a declining birthrate and dying out?

That's what has happened for thousands of years, and it is why strongly organized religions are so dominant.

 

[Jenov]

It's not religion, it's just fear. Which is the justification for almost every type of prejudicial human behavior. Fear of what's different. There's also sociological and biological pros to preferring heterosexuals which has already been brought up (ie, making children which means workers for the family, possible political clout through marriages, growth of human population, etc.)

 

[PreFire]

I don't think either has to do with each other.

Some people just have strong opinions and beliefs.

Growing up, I regrettably admit I was homophobic. I live in NYC, and whenever I'd go to the west village to get some pizza, I'd always get hit on by another guy. Being young and ignorant, I hated it and would feel disgusted. I espcially felt disrespected because I didn't invite it, and a few times I was with my then girlfriend. It's not cool to blow kisses at someone in the street.

I changed and matured since then. A few good friends came out the closet and it opened up my eyes. It's their choice and I wouldn't be a real friend if I didn't understand.

Religion and homosexuality and the fear of it would exist regardless. Sure, there are religious people who think it's a sin. But religion didn't cause it. People have opinions and reasons.. Even if we don't agree with them.

Is there a difference between homophobia and gay bashing? Homophobia as in secretly or personally not liking gay people but not saying anything about it or revealing it with body language.

 

[bengraven]

A bunch of guys got together in the desert.

"I hate guys who want to bang guys" the first one said.
"Yeah, me, too!" said the second.
"I'll third it..." said the third.
"I love to suck dick, though," said the fourth.
"Can we kill this fucking guy?" asked the second.
The first and third said, "Nah, just banish him. We'll stick together and make a club."

Thus, religion was invented.

 

[jerry1594]

I know really manly bro types who find homosexuality disgusting, and even regular guys who find it disgusting.

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

A man putting his penis into another man's butt hole is simply too much for some people.

Sad but true.