• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Is religion responsible for homophobia or is homophobia responsible for religion?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't believe it had a hand in it, it just reflected the opinions of the time. Saying the problem originated with religion is really a gross oversimplification of the issue while at the same time ignoring the fact that people, themselves, fear and hate that which is different. Usually :).

So, wouldn't that go back to how the Bible was written and that it wasn't written in God's interests, but corrupted by Human beliefs? If it's the will of God, then religion is a primary cause, but if it's the corruption of Human beliefs, then it it's the Extremism and a fault on my part.
 

entremet

Member
It's pretty well-accepted that a group of Roman Christians decided which rules to follow and which to ignore.

St. Paul, Christianity's most influential theologian and writer of half of the NT, confirmed certain things as obsolete--circumcision, New Moon festivals, dietary laws. He mentioned that those were not needed for salvation, but you could follow them as long as you didn't force them on others.

Remember, most of the early Christians were Jews.

Paul help spread Christianity throughout the Gentile world of Asia Minor, and he mentioned that Jewish customs were not required for them, even though early leaders were forcing those customs on Gentiles.

Paul does condemn homosexuality in his letters. Jesus's Gospel accounts never mention it. Some Christians reject Paul's view on homosexuality, viewing that Jesus himself never mentions it. Though, Jesus does talk about adultery and divorce prominently.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
I was actually being sarcastic. People should be afraid of Islam, its Abrahamic predecessors, and all religions that perpetuate horrendously wicked ideas. They should relentlessly oppose them.

Eh, I disagree. Religion can be and often is responsible for incredible creativity. Much of the greatest art, music, and thought of Europe and the Middle East were inspired by religion. The basis of most rhetoric and art music in the West, for instance, stems from religion. Beethoven's symphonies could not have been written, had polyphony and our system of notation not been developed by Catholic monks.

The issue is when people use religion as an excuse for bigotry or violence. Islam and Christianity have problematic aspects, but certainly shouldn't be "relentlessly opposed".
 

Bizazedo

Member
So, wouldn't that go back to how the Bible was written and that it wasn't written in God's interests, but corrupted by Human beliefs? If it's the will of God, then religion is a primary cause, but if it's the corruption of Human beliefs, then it it's the Extremism and a fault on my part.

Religion is created by people and, even more dangerously, interpreted by people. One of the problems with the thread and discussion is that it's not really "religion" we're talking about, is it? It's Judaism / Christianity / Islam, all of which stem from a common source. So an easy counter-argument is, do all religions outlaw or criticize homosexuality? I admittedly don't know the answer to that, but I'd argue they all probably don't.

People are the cause, not religion in and of itself. If someone really thinks it's religion, then the same argument could be made to say "The rule of law" is responsible for homophobia since laws can and have been made to outlaw or marginalize homosexuality, all the while ignoring people made those laws.
 
Religion is created by people and, even more dangerously, interpreted by people. One of the problems with the thread and discussion is that it's not really "religion" we're talking about, is it? It's Judaism / Christianity / Islam, all of which stem from a common source. So an easy counter-argument is, do all religions outlaw or criticize homosexuality? I admittedly don't know the answer to that, but I'd argue they all probably don't.

People are the cause, not religion in and of itself. If someone really thinks it's religion, then the same argument could be made to say "The rule of law" is responsible for homophobia since laws can and have been made to outlaw or marginalize homosexuality, all the while ignoring people made those laws.

Then it's dealing with Extremism and a fault on my part. My apologies.
 

Servbot24

Banned
This is a terrible post with no value. There's clearly discussion to be had about the OP's premise, despite your dismissive one-sentence "argument" that doesn't actually address half the points made in this thread.

The premise of the thread is to ask whether religion is the source of homophobia. It asks for my thoughts. My thought is that that is an absurd idea with faulty logic on an elementary level.

Homophobia is caused by human nature. We are creatures of conformity, and anything outside the majority's boundaries, we fear and attack.

Religion is also caused by human nature. We fear death and long for meaning. We also seek leaders and rules, which religion provides.

They don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, but since religion is steeped in tradition, it has been slow to cut the homophobic roots we all at one time shared.
 

Siegcram

Member
Quite often on the internet, and especially on Gaf, I see people blaming all prejudice against queer people on religion. A lot of people suggest a world without religion would have no homophobia whatsoever, and people would be able to love who they want without repercussions.
I've literally never seen this argument in a serious context.

Monotheistic religions do provide a breeding ground for bigotry, but they equally promote a message of love and forgiveness. People are just generally assholes and adhere to antiquated rules scribbled down thousands of years ago instead of grasping the greater message of dudes like Jesus.

Homophobia would still exist if there was no religion. The problem is people, not arbitrary concepts.
 

Platy

Member
Long story short, most religions were basicaly created as a "constitution" to make people live in he desert without killing themselfs.

Can't do stuff that will make you fight, can't do stuff that will bring you diseases. We have few people and we need to make more people.
Why you can't kill that dude you don't like ? because .... someone stronger than you will make you suffer.
Homosexuality enters both in the disease (it wasn't a clean time =P) and no workforce creating. And no "makes the warrior stronger" sparta stuff either.

The problem is that people start noticing how some of those laws didn't applied anymore (like farms for avoding most pig diseases).... and start reading those as they please.
 
I certainly believe huge religion is part of it but there's plenty of people who aren't religious or believe in a god at all and seem to dislike gays.
 
Eh, I disagree. Religion can be and often is responsible for incredible creativity. Much of the greatest art, music, and thought of Europe and the Middle East were inspired by religion. The basis of most rhetoric and art music in the West, for instance, stems from religion. Beethoven's symphonies could not have been written, had polyphony and our system of notation not been developed by Catholic monks.

The issue is when people use religion as an excuse for bigotry or violence. Islam and Christianity have problematic aspects, but certainly shouldn't be "relentlessly opposed".
Anytime you offload moral responsibility to a fictitious surrogate that requires no rational justification, you only create potential to harm. This isn't hypothetical; it's been demonstrated in the real world ad nauseam. Saying that music is somehow the product of the religion because religious people crafted it is a blatant fallacy.

Homophobia would still exist if there was no religion. The problem is people, not arbitrary concepts.
I know good people that behave reprehensibly towards homosexuals because of ignorant, irrational religious belief. They wouldn't look down on gays if their holy texts hadn't deemed their lifestyle a sin and abomination.
 

Siegcram

Member
I know good people that behave reprehensibly towards homosexuals because of ignorant, irrational religious belief. They wouldn't look down on gays if their holy texts hadn't deemed their lifestyle a sin and abomination.
Well I wouldn't call them good people then. Those beliefs are their choice.

I know non-religious homophobes and religious folks that are totally down with the gayness.

This isn't a zero-sum game. Do certain religions encourage homophobic behavior? Sure.
Are the singlehandedly responsible for all of it? No, that's absurd.
 

Air

Banned
Well I wouldn't call them good people then. Those beliefs are their choice.

I know non-religious homophobes and religious folks that are totally down with the gayness.

This isn't a zero-sum game. Do certain religions encourage homophobic behavior? Sure.
Are the singlehandedly responsible for all of it? No, that's absurd.

Down with the gayness sounds like it'd be the name of a great cover band.
 
Well I wouldn't call them good people then. Those beliefs are their choice.

I know non-religious homophobes and religious folks that are totally down with the gayness.

This isn't a zero-sum game. Do certain religions encourage homophobic behavior? Sure.
Are the singlehandedly responsible for all of it? No, that's absurd.

overwhelming majority is because of religious beliefs. the plethora of evidence to that fact is astounding. even if a person is not that religious or do not go to mass every week, the motivation to hate on gays is due to their religious beliefs.
 

y2dvd

Member
A little bit of both. Are we really denying that a lot of religion across the board condemns homosexuality? As for the latter, homophobia is one of the many reasons religion was created to fit someone else's philosophy in life for others to follow to their liking.
 

Kiritsugu

Banned
Of course homophobic religious beliefs cause homophobia. There are non-religious homophobes, but if the Quran, Bible, and Talmud said that sex between people of the same gender is perfectly fine, the number of homophobes would be drastically lower, probably a small minority of the world's population.
 
it seems that most if not all the monotheocratic religions are the ones that have the big hate on this. if you look at ancient greece, rome, and other cultures it was practiced frequently without cuase for concern. I believe there would still be homophobia, just like there is racism in the world, but I do not believe it would be as reviled as it is with mono-religions making up the majority of the worlds population.
 
D

Deleted member 309291

Unconfirmed Member
Homophobia (among men, which is the most common) is the result of men's insecurity regarding their own masculinity. Masculinity, machismo and all of their cousins being related but ultimately different issues.
 
Religion is just what many people hide their prejudices behind, if we didn't have Religion those people would find something else to hide their intolerance behind.
 

lazygecko

Member
it seems that most if not all the monotheocratic religions are the ones that have the big hate on this. if you look at ancient greece, rome, and other cultures it was practiced frequently without cuase for concern.

I think the attitude in ancient Greece ultimately grew out of a culture that villified women. You've got parallel situations today in isolated Afghan communities and other nearby regions.
 

injurai

Banned
Homophobia is the result of archaic lay-thinking trying to explain away heterosexual attraction and sexual reproduction. Because the Darwinian natural selection and biological evolution had not been discovered, the explanations deferred to creationism. Which had already long been worked into human culture at that time.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
it seems that most if not all the monotheocratic religions are the ones that have the big hate on this. if you look at ancient greece, rome, and other cultures it was practiced frequently without cuase for concern. I believe there would still be homophobia, just like there is racism in the world, but I do not believe it would be as reviled as it is with mono-religions making up the majority of the worlds population.

Sort of. Outside of Sparta, gay sex was only acceptable if you were the penatrator. It was best of the guy on the bottom was a slave or a teenager, too.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
I was actually being sarcastic. People should be afraid of Islam, its Abrahamic predecessors, and all religions that perpetuate horrendously wicked ideas. They should relentlessly oppose them.

If you mean what you wrote above then you should probably read up on the fundamentals of Islam and why many of the "wicked ideas" are actually misinterpretations or fundamentalists reimagining the truth behind the teachings to suit their agendas.

The foundation of Islam is peace and tolerance. Many of the parts we find disagreeable as a western society are cultural modifications made by twisting aspects of the text to sell as Islamic law.

Islam is a beautiful religion at its core. Do some research on common misinterpretations before you blame the religion itself. Some examples
 

Siegcram

Member
overwhelming majority is because of religious beliefs. the plethora of evidence to that fact is astounding. even if a person is not that religious or do not go to mass every week, the motivation to hate on gays is due to their religious beliefs.
I don't dispute that. It's one of the major reasons I have nothing but contempt for organized religion. But even then I'm able to see that religion at its core is neither the exclusive culprit here, as well as completely unconcerned with things like homosexuality.

Anyone able to comprehend the greater appeal of religious messages beyond zealous adherence to archaic scriptures already accepts homosexuality and the entirety of the human spectrum. Ignorant and stupid people will continue to use whatever justification for their bigotry, may it be religious or otherwise. Ignorance remains ignorance, regardless of the coat of paint.

Which is why I don't think the number of homophobes would suddenly plummet if religion were to disappear. Most people are stupid and afraid of the "other"
 
Religion is not responsible for homophobia; but it is a giant obfuscation for pinpointing the irrationality behind it because people hide behind the magical/supernatural dogmas of religion in order to justify it (e.g., "magic man in sky told me it was no good; your logical reasons are invalid").
 

stufte

Member
I know good people that behave reprehensibly towards homosexuals because of ignorant, irrational religious belief. They wouldn't look down on gays if their holy texts hadn't deemed their lifestyle a sin and abomination.

People look for all sorts of reasons to justify the things they do. The bible is vague at best about homosexuality, so lots of folks extrapolate what they want in order to hate others.

Religion is a convenient justification to be horrible, homophobia would exist without it.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
In a historical context the idea that two same sex Adults would be monogamous for life would be something equivalent to owning a yacht or someshit. Some 0.1%er activity that the BC Roman equivalent of Kim would indulge in. You needed kids for economic reasons. Therefore homosexual relationships were done on the sly, underground, outside the cultural norms.
 

geardo

Member
I don't think homophobia has anything to do with religion. Religion is just the low-hanging fruit that bigots can hide behind in order to avoid taking responsibility for being piles of shit. In a world without religion, people would just create some other way to do that. You'd need to have far too much faith in humanity to think that the world would be a better place without religion.
 
Homophobia certainly isn't 'responsible' for religion, that... doesn't even make sense, but homophobia transcends all of the major world religions today, and there have been examples of homophobia in societies that either preceded the modern, common religions, or were even relatively untouched by those religions. Even in the modern day, you have atheistic communities that are deeply homophobic (link and link).

The Philosopher/Psychologist William James theorized that revulsion to same-sex intimacy between men was something instinctive for humans, and that societies that had become comfortable with it became comfortable out of habit. James was writing in the 19th and early 20th century, so obviously society has changed, but arguably, this theory would suggest that religious arguments against homosexuality could have been informed by an instinctual predisposition against homosexuality.

With Homophobia, religions can be a block to progress (I'd argue that progress is a less homophobic society), but they don't have to be. Similarly for several hundred years, Western slave owners used a perverted Christianity to justify slave ownership, and yet, abolitionists also used Christianity as the foundation of abolition... And, of course, many Civil Rights advocates were deeply religious and bolstered their righteousness with Christian teaching. You see similar arguments made today by universalist and progressive churches (as well as progressive members of more moderate churches like Catholicism) where Christian teachings are used as an argument to love and build community. What this shows me, at least, is that religion is typically used to foment a societal/communal belief, and not necessarily the other way around.
 

Newt

Member
Homophobia certainly isn't 'responsible' for religion, that... doesn't even make sense, but homophobia transcends all of the major world religions today, and there have been examples of homophobia in societies that either preceded the modern, common religions, or were even relatively untouched by those religions.

The Philosopher/Psychologist William James theorized that revulsion to same-sex intimacy between men was something instinctive for humans, and that societies that had become comfortable with it became comfortable out of habit. James was writing in the 19th and early 20th century, so obviously society has changed, but arguably, this theory would suggest that religious arguments against homosexuality could have been informed by an instinctual predisposition against homosexuality.
From an evolutionary perspective this would make sense.
 

reckless

Member
Religion may be responsible for homophobia in some cases, I've known born again Christians who have had their view completely change from accepting to being homophobic after getting more extreme in their beliefs. I'd bet there are similar examples in other religions too.

Homophobia being responsible for religion doesn't make any sense, entire religions aren't going to be born out of homophobia.
 

AngryMoth

Member
I don't think religion itself really has a huge impact, I think it's more of an excuse people use to justify feelings that have a more complex explanation. There's plenty of christians who aren't homophobes and plenty of irreligious people who are.

They seem to pick and choose which parts of their religious to pay heed to. Some ignore the stuff condemning homosexuality, some don't.
 
I don't think homophobia has anything to do with religion. Religion is just the low-hanging fruit that bigots can hide behind in order to avoid taking responsibility for being piles of shit. In a world without religion, people would just create some other way to do that. You'd need to have far too much faith in humanity to think that the world would be a better place without religion.

I don't agree with that part. While I agree that homophobia would still exist without religion, I know a few people (who I certainly wouldn't classify as bigots) who have homophobic views simply because those views are expressed in their religion. Like they're incredibly kind and gentle people but their gentle nature has this blind spot in regards to homosexuality.
 

Siegcram

Member
I know a few people (who I certainly wouldn't classify as bigots) who have homophobic views simply because those views are expressed in their religion. Like they're incredible kind and gentle people but their gentle nature has this blind spot in regards to homosexuality.
That's even worse. And they most certainly are bigots.
 
From an evolutionary perspective this would make sense.
Not only would it not make much more sense than the possible alternative explanations, it would also be close to impossible to prove since people don't exist in a vacuum. I'm also sceptical of what any philosopher or psychologist has to say about evolution.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
It doesn't make sense to put all religions into the same umbrella. Buddhism for example isn't homophobic, though obviously that's different from school to school.
 
Religion didn't cause homophobia and it would almost certainly exist even if religion didn't. The reason people including myself give religion tons of shit for being homophobic is because it's scriptually mandated. Meaning, if your the kind of person that has a problem with gay people for one reason or another, there is a verse or two you can dig out of the Bible/Koran to validate it. If you were to say "I don't like those gays and I don't want them to have the same rights or the same wedding cake as me!", you'd be look at rightly as a backwards, hateful, bigoted nutbag. But say that same thing and then point to where it is preached in some form in a holy book, then all you have to do is put it under the banner of "religious freedom" and you can get away with anything.

What most likely happened is that the fallible human beings who wrote these holy books were woefully uneducated compared to what we know today about the world around us. They were also very superstitious and tribal leading them to discriminate against anyone who didn't believe what they believed, look like they looked, and act like they acted.

EDIT: Another way that amplifies why religious makes it worse is how people actually believe these books were "breathed" into existence by God. Therefore they know it's right just because God said it, end of argument in their minds. Whereas if you just had 2 points of view going against each other it may be easier to persuade someone who is homophobic into being less so. Good luck with them thinking that even God doesn't approve of their behavior or whatever.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom