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leng jai · Jun 12, 2015

I've always wondered about this - why is it that 30fps on console always feels much better than it does on PC? Whenever I play games with a locked 30fps on console (like DriveClub, The Order, Horizon 2 etc) it feels fine. Whenever I lock games to 30FPS on PC it always feels like there's some stutter effect and input lag. I tried playing The Witcher 3 at 1620p/30fps as opposed to 1080p/60fps and I really couldn't stand it despite how much cleaner it look IQ wise. From what I've read I understand it has something to do with vsync and your TV's refresh rate. Is there any way to make it feel as good on PC?

Just a side note - TLOU Remaster had an option to lock the framerate to 30FPS and that felt similarly awful too which makes me things even more confusing. People will say it's placebo/recency effect but I'm sure it has something to do with the method used to lock the FPS.

Terbinator · Jun 12, 2015

Set a 30Hz profile in your driver panel.

LogN · Jun 12, 2015

Games locked at 30 on FPS can cause stutter by a myriad of things. For instance, frame pacing isn't present with the built in lock or the game was intended for 60 and can be locked at 30 with a bad limiter.

There are programs like RivaTuner Statistics Server and GeForce Experience to add adaptive V-Sync or a proper limiter. These will typically result in much smoother experiences, similar to what you see on consoles.

Cels · Jun 12, 2015

check this thread out

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=984491

IAmRandom31 · Jun 12, 2015

Because PC games aren't created from the ground up with a framerate in mind. On clnses the whole game is built and optimized around the 30fps mark when that is the actual desired framerate from the beginning. So during testing they can get the feel of the controls and response times and whatnot just right.

That's why games ljke DriveClub can exist. Despite being 30fps it looks and plays like a 60fps racer. Still has the best sense of speed of any racer since Burnout to me

quesalupa · Jun 12, 2015

leng jai said:
Just a side note - TLOU Remaster had an option to lock the framerate to 30FPS and that felt similarly awful too which makes me things even more confusing. People will say it's placebo/recency effect but I'm sure it has something to do with the method used to lock the FPS.

I'm not crazy!

nib95 · Jun 12, 2015

I've found the exact same thing. I'm not exactly sure why it is, but I think it may be a combination of the use of motion blur and post processing, coupled with how HDTV's handle motion comparative to PC monitors.

Regarding the LoU Remaster running at 30fps vs the PS3 version, I agree, the former feels less smooth. From what I could tell, this was again down to the level and implementation of motion blur. Games like Driveclub and Forza Horizon 2 have other things in their favour too, like locked frame rates, on top of improved input response.

Seanspeed · Jun 12, 2015

IAmRandom31 said:
That's why games ljke DriveClub can exist. Despite being 30fps it looks and plays like a 60fps racer.

No, it doesn't. It's good for a 30fps game, but it's still noticeably 30fps. Playing it back to back with a game like Assetto Corsa is still a world of difference. Sense of speed is not the same thing as framerate.

Anyways, use Rivatuner Statistics or MSI Afterburner and Nvidia's 1/2 refresh rate vsync for the exact same '30fps feeling' you get on consoles.

viveks86 · Jun 12, 2015

leng jai said:
I've always wondered about this - why is it that 30fps on console always feels much better than it does on PC? Whenever I play games with a locked 30fps on console (like DriveClub, The Order, Horizon 2 etc) it feels fine. Whenever I lock games to 30FPS on PC it always feels like there's some stutter effect and input lag. I tried playing The Witcher 3 at 1620p/30fps as opposed to 1080p/60fps and I really couldn't stand it despite how much cleaner it look IQ wise. From what I've read I understand it has something to do with vsync and your TV's refresh rate. Is there any way to make it feel as good on PC?

Just a side note - TLOU Remaster had an option to lock the framerate to 30FPS and that felt similarly awful too which makes me things even more confusing. People will say it's placebo/recency effect but I'm sure it has something to do with the method used to lock the FPS.

I've noticed this too, until I started playing console games on game mode. There's a lot of post processing and interpolation on TVs these days that mask the "stutter". Once you remove all that stuff, it pretty much looks the same as it would on a PC. I've actually been contemplating for a while if I should turn all that post processing back on and trade off some responsiveness for fluidity.

I think the issue with TLOU was that the 30 fps was a crude bolt on option and they didn't compensate it well with proper motion blur. So the transition from 60 to 30 was way too jarring. Just a guess. It really felt unplayable and broken compared to other 30 fps games or even last gen TLOU.

STILLethal · Jun 12, 2015

When I play TW3 on max settings with unlimited fps and v-sync off - on my recently purchased Asus VG248QE monitor it feels really smooth, hovers around 35-45fps, but really smooth, so Im guessing the monitor/TV youre playing also has an effect? Optimization of PC vs console version of the game as well

Crayon · Jun 12, 2015

I notice it too. I notice some pc game engines are smooth at low framerates and some are jumpy. It actually happens on console too. Overall I find it's more common for console games to start missing frames but deliver 20-30 fps with the frames spaced out consistently. Where PC games get quick, random little pops and hiccups.

Idk what it is. It could be the closed platform optimization or the mantle-like console apis.

leng jai · Jun 12, 2015

viveks86 said:
I've noticed this too, until I started playing console games on game mode. There's a lot of post processing and interpolation on TVs these days that mask the "stutter". Once you remove all that stuff, it pretty much looks the same as it would on a PC. I've actually been contemplating for a while if I should turn all that post processing back on and trade off some responsiveness for fluidity.

I think the issue with TLOU was that the 30 fps was a crude bolt on option and they didn't compensate it well with proper motion blur. So the transition from 60 to 30 was way too jarring. Just a guess. It really felt unplayable and broken compared to other 30 fps games or even last gen TLOU.

Just a sidenote, I play both my PC and PS4/Xbox games on the same Panasonic plasma TV, so it's not a TV vs monitor thing either.

Bl@de · Jun 12, 2015

IAmRandom31 said:
Because PC games aren't created from the ground up with a framerate in mind. On clnses the whole game is built and optimized around the 30fps mark when that is the actual desired framerate from the beginning. So during testing they can get the feel of the controls and response times and whatnot just right.

That's why games ljke DriveClub can exist. Despite being 30fps it looks and plays like a 60fps racer. Still has the best sense of speed of any racer since Burnout to me

ehm ... wot? I played Driveclub. It feels like a 30fps racer. It looks like a 30fps racer. It is a 30fps racer.

texhnolyze · Jun 12, 2015

st1llx said:
When I play TW3 on max settings with unlimited fps and v-sync off - on my recently purchased Asus VG248QE monitor it feels really smooth, hovers around 35-45fps, but really smooth, so Im guessing the monitor/TV youre playing also has an effect? Optimization of PC vs console version of the game as well

35-45 is smooth indeed, I'm playing the Witcher 3 on those framerates as well.
However, I understand OP's complaint as I've also tried capping the game at 30 fps. It's not really smooth.

nib95 · Jun 12, 2015

Bl@de said:
ehm ... wot? I played Driveclub. It feels like a 30fps racer. It looks like a 30fps racer. It is a 30fps racer.

You missed the point of the OP and thread. Eg that playing a PC racer (Eg Project Cars or Assetto Corsa) locked to 30fps on a PC, would likely feel and look less smooth than DriveClub or Forza Horizon 2, despite the two running at the same frame rate.

Seanspeed · Jun 12, 2015

Crayon said:
I notice it too. I notice some pc game engines are smooth at low framerates and some are jumpy. It actually happens on console too. Overall I find it's more common for console games to start missing frames but deliver 20-30 fps with the frames spaced out consistently. Where PC games get quick, random little pops and hiccups.

Idk what it is. It could be the closed platform optimization or the mantle-like console apis.

It's just frametimes. Framerates aren't the best measure of smoothness/consistency. I imagine the consoles generally have good frame limiter solutions onboard, while on PC, you have to kind of know which program to use.

Here's an example with The Witcher 3, taken from Durante's PC Gamer article titled 'The Alchemy of Smoothness':

This last image represents the most consistent and smooth 30fps possible. This is the 'console-like' smoothness people are talking about. See how using a different program(RTSS) is preferable to using the in-game limiter?

Bl@de · Jun 12, 2015

nib95 said:
You missed the point of the OP and thread. Eg that playing a PC racer (Eg Project Cars or Assetto Corsa) locked to 30fps on a PC, would likely feel and look less smooth than DriveClub, despite the two running at the same frame rate.

Framepacing issues. Can be avoided on a PC as well. I play Witcher 3 with a 30fps lock and it feels as smooth as a console game when I play it on my TV. Nothing about 30fps design from the ground up.

EDIT: Look at the graphs from Seanspeed

benny_a · Jun 12, 2015

The issue you're seeing is a naive implementation of locking the frame rate if you don't use more specialized tools for the job.

The behavior you're seeing is uneven frame pacing and that can also exist in console titles that don't do a good job about consistent frame times. Before it was patched in Destiny, Digital Foundry described it like so:

"Performance wise, Destiny delivers a stable 30fps regardless of on-screen action, interrupted only by issues with frame-pacing. There are regularly instances in which a singular frame remains on-screen for an additional 16.7ms, creating a run of three identical frames, followed by a single frame. This interrupts the cadence of frames required to deliver a stable 30fps, creating a slight judder during motion. This issue manifests itself in our consistency graphs as a series of spikes and dips at random intervals - as opposed to the flat 33ms line you'd get from a locked 30fps title with appropriate frame-pacing."

viveks86 · Jun 12, 2015

leng jai said:
Just a sidenote, I play both my PC and PS4/Xbox games on the same Panasonic plasma TV, so it's not a TV vs monitor thing either.

Ahhh.. sounds like a different issue. Have you tried playing the same video file on both PC and Console? Do they look they same? Also, are your TV input modes the same for both signals? Are you connected to your TV from the PC using HDMI or something else?

Issue could be as simple as vysnc/frame pacing related, I'm just thinking of all other possible issues.

EDIT: Oh wait you can't play video files using the consoles yet can you? Ugh..

Seanspeed · Jun 12, 2015

nib95 said:
You missed the point of the OP and thread. Eg that playing a PC racer (Eg Project Cars or Assetto Corsa) locked to 30fps on a PC, would likely feel and look less smooth than DriveClub or Forza Horizon 2, despite the two running at the same frame rate.

No, he isn't missing the point. The guy he was responding to said that DriveClub looks and plays like a 60fps game.

leng jai · Jun 12, 2015

viveks86 said:
Ahhh.. sounds like a different issue. Have you tried playing the same video file on both PC and Console? Do they look they same? Also, are your TV input modes the same for both signals? Are you connected to your TV from the PC using HDMI or something else?

Issue could be as simple as vysnc/frame pacing related, I'm just thinking of all other possible issues.

They're both running through a receiver and the same mode in the TV settings so I'm pretty sure it's just a vsync issue.

Durante · Jun 12, 2015

That's just framepacing issues. They can exist on consoles as well, e.g. unpatched Witcher 3.

The good thing on PC is that you can almost always fix it -- and it's not that hard either.

Seanspeed said:
It's just frametimes. Framerates aren't the best measure of smoothness/consistency. I imagine the consoles generally have good frame limiter solutions onboard, while on PC, you have to kind of know which program to use.

Here's an example with The Witcher 3, taken from Durante's PC Gamer article titled 'The Alchemy of Smoothness':

This last image represents the most consistent and smooth 30fps possible. This is the 'console-like' smoothness people are talking about.

Yep.

nib95 · Jun 12, 2015

Seanspeed said:
It's just frametimes. Framerates aren't the best measure of smoothness/consistency. I imagine the consoles generally have good frame limiter solutions onboard, while on PC, you have to kind of know which program to use.

Here's an example with The Witcher 3, taken from Durante's PC Gamer article titled 'The Alchemy of Smoothness':

This last image represents the most consistent and smooth 30fps possible. This is the 'console-like' smoothness people are talking about. See how using a different program(RTSS) is preferable to using the in-game limiter?

That's interesting. Appreciate the graphs. This could be what it is then. Any idea if the Last of Us Remaster has frame pacing issues running 30fps?

Seanspeed · Jun 12, 2015

benny_a said:
The issue you're seeing is a naive implementation of locking the frame rate if you don't use more specialized tools for the job.

The behavior you're seeing is uneven frame pacing and that can also exist in console titles that don't do a good job about consistent frame times. Before it was patched in Destiny, Digital Foundry described it like so:

"Performance wise, Destiny delivers a stable 30fps regardless of on-screen action, interrupted only by issues with frame-pacing. There are regularly instances in which a singular frame remains on-screen for an additional 16.7ms, creating a run of three identical frames, followed by a single frame. This interrupts the cadence of frames required to deliver a stable 30fps, creating a slight judder during motion. This issue manifests itself in our consistency graphs as a series of spikes and dips at random intervals - as opposed to the flat 33ms line you'd get from a locked 30fps title with appropriate frame-pacing."

Yea, we've seen several games this generation with poor frame pacing on the consoles, bizarrely. Destiny, The Witcher 3(before it was capped) and Bloodborne the most notable examples.

roytheone · Jun 12, 2015

I tried locking ac: unity to 30 fps once, it felt horrible and the controls became laggy as shit. Same with GTA V with half refresh rate v-sync on, game felt almost unplayable framy, even though I had a stable 30 fps.

Crayon · Jun 12, 2015

Seanspeed said:
It's just frametimes. Framerates aren't the best measure of smoothness/consistency. I imagine the consoles generally have good frame limiter solutions onboard, while on PC, you have to kind of know which program to use.

Here's an example with The Witcher 3, taken from Durante's PC Gamer article titled 'The Alchemy of Smoothness':

[img
[img
[img

This last image represents the most consistent and smooth 30fps possible. This is the 'console-like' smoothness people are talking about.

I see. That's consistent with how it feels to me. it's especially noticeable in otherwise hi-performing console games that have actions scenes that load up the engine and slow it down. When they get down to 15 or 10 fps, you can see it go by like a metronome... tick....tick....tick....tick. This is how I remember dos games as well as 16 an 8 bit games slowing down. With the advent of ps3 and 360 tho, some console games started to appear with tearing and stuttering. Exactly as you said; frames having poor timing.

Bl@de · Jun 12, 2015

Seanspeed said:
Yea, we've seen several games this generation with poor frame pacing on the consoles, bizarrely. Destiny, The Witcher 3(before it was capped) and Bloodborne the most notable examples.

I usually notice framepacing issues and I hate them but I didn't notice anything during my 50 hours with Bloodborne. Must be minor issues (graph anyone?). Game also ran great for me. No big dips. I was pleasently surprised with this FROM title on consoles. Expected worse. Much worse.

PS. Didn't play Multiplayer. I know it looked different there.

Dictator93 · Jun 12, 2015

Game devs implementing poo rFPS caps and framepacing on all machines... as already posted in this thread.

Try and use RTSS for the best frame locking around.

benny_a · Jun 12, 2015

Bl@de said:
I usually notice framepacing issues and I hate them but I didn't notice anything during my 50 hours with Bloodborne. Must be minor issues (graph anyone?). Game also ran great for me. No big dips. I was pleasently surprised with this FROM title on consoles. Expected worse. Much worse.

PS. Didn't play Multiplayer. I know it looked different there.

Sometimes even the frame-time analyzer tool doesn't catch frame-pacing problems, as dark10x (Digital Foundry contributor / That's the guy to follow if you care about consistent frame times) wrote about The Evil Within.
I'm not aware of any graphs but I haven't followed technical analysis of games in a long time.

I think it's just a general thing that some people perceive differently. There have been people that have been very happy with their dual-GPU setup for years and those had framerate judder in a lot of games due to the framebuffer transfer time from GPU#2 to GPU#1.

Edit: In any case. Use RTSS Rivatuner Statistics Server on PC.

alexandros · Jun 12, 2015

Durante said:
That's just framepacing issues. They can exist on consoles as well, e.g. unpatched Witcher 3.

The good thing on PC is that you can almost always fix it -- and it's not that hard either.

Yep.

What I would very much like to know is why framepacing issues still exist and why there is a need for external programs in order to get smooth frame delivery. i mean, shouldn't Nvidia and AMD implement whatever it is RTSS is doing as default in their drivers? Is there any downside to doing so?

Anyway, the method of control also plays a big part. Using a controller makes bad framerate seem smoother as it's not as fast as a mouse.

pswii60 · Jun 12, 2015

Terbinator said:
Set a 30Hz profile in your driver panel.

Even that won't add the effective motion blur effect that developers build in to their console versions. Although it's still much preferable to judder.

Mechazawa · Jun 12, 2015

Durante, I'm curious that you evangelize Triple Buffering in favor of more traditional Vsync in that Witcher 3 article(which you end by talking up the virtues of getting minimal input lag)

I mean, I use Triple Buffering all the time, but I've commonly heard that there's input latency associated with Triple Buffering that isn't present in double buffering. Is it imperceptible?

Durante · Jun 12, 2015

Mechazawa said:
Durante, I'm curious that you evangelize Triple Buffering in favor of more traditional Vsync in that Witcher 3 article(which you end by talking up the virtues of getting minimal input lag)

I mean, I use Triple Buffering all the time, but I've commonly heard that there's input latency associated with Triple Buffering that isn't present in double buffering. Is it imperceptible?

I "evangelize" using borderless windowed fullscreen to get true triple buffering, IIRC.

True triple buffering (which always uses the most recently finished frame once a V-sync impulse comes around) does not perceptibly increase latency over double buffering. However, what most games do if you enable "triple buffering" in their settings is use 3 buffers in a queue, which does increase latency.

Zoned · Jun 12, 2015

IAmRandom31 said:
Because PC games aren't created from the ground up with a framerate in mind. On clnses the whole game is built and optimized around the 30fps mark when that is the actual desired framerate from the beginning. So during testing they can get the feel of the controls and response times and whatnot just right.

That's why games ljke DriveClub can exist. Despite being 30fps it looks and plays like a 60fps racer. Still has the best sense of speed of any racer since Burnout to me

Talked liked someone who has no idea about this and justifies because "it feels like that". Driveclub is 30fps racer and will play like 30fps racer. Anything else means you haven't played any 60fps games to differentiate or probably ignorant to accept it.

mrlion · Jun 12, 2015

IAmRandom31 said:
That's why games ljke DriveClub can exist. Despite being 30fps it looks and plays like a 60fps racer. Still has the best sense of speed of any racer since Burnout to me

No it does not...

Mechazawa · Jun 12, 2015

Durante said:
I "evangelize" using borderless windowed fullscreen to get true triple buffering, IIRC.

True triple buffering (which always uses the most recently finished frame once a V-sync impulse comes around) does not perceptibly increase latency over double buffering. However, what most games do if you enable "triple buffering" in their settings is use 3 buffers in a queue, which does increase latency.

Very interesting. Thanks.

I guess at this point if I'm going to use TB, I need to wholesale move everything towards Borderless.

Alienous · Jun 12, 2015

leng jai said:
Just a side note - TLOU Remaster had an option to lock the framerate to 30FPS and that felt similarly awful too which makes me things even more confusing. People will say it's placebo/recency effect but I'm sure it has something to do with the method used to lock the FPS.

I was wondering about that coming into this thread.

There's something off about how it handles it. I imagine it just forces a 30Hz output from 30+ frames of data, so there's probably skipping of frames and gaps in the output (due to not being a solid 60fps to halve).

EDIT:
Reading this thread I gather it's called frame pacing?

leng jai · Jun 12, 2015

I don't think this is the same as the frame pacing issues like we've seen in Destiny and Bloodborne. I've played those games and it felt like the framerate would periodically hitch. When I lock a PC game to 30fps it feels like it's running through mud and almost like it's in slow motion.

Anyway I just tried limiting the FPS with RTSS and using adaptive vsync and it does feel better - but now I'm getting screen tearing.

Burgess_101 · Jun 12, 2015

I think it's a perception thing. I'll always play 60fps on my PC and knowing I can do 60 makes 30 worse. With console I know there's no option so I make do. Bloodborne for example recently has been fine.

camac002 · Jun 12, 2015

leng jai said:
Just a side note - TLOU Remaster had an option to lock the framerate to 30FPS and that felt similarly awful too which makes me things even more confusing. People will say it's placebo/recency effect but I'm sure it has something to do with the method used to lock the FPS.

Alienous said:
I was wondering about that coming into this thread.

There's something off about how it handles it. I imagine it just forces a 30Hz output from 30+ frames of data, so there's probably skipping of frames and gaps in the output (due to not being a solid 60fps to halve).

EDIT:
Reading this thread I gather it's called frame pacing?

People were arguing about this last year. TLOUR is a rock solid 30, frame times and everything. But for whatever reason, people still think that their brains are magical and that they need no adaptation time. I don't mind 30fps but seeing it immediately after 60fps is crap. Plug in your PS3 on one TV channel and PS4 on the other, and switch between the versions without seeing 60fps. (Hell, switch between TLOUR 30 and Uncharted 2 true 30)

bj00rn_ · Jun 12, 2015

leng jai said:
Anyway I just tried limiting the FPS with RTSS and using adaptive vsync and it does feel better - but now I'm getting screen tearing.

First priority is to run over 30fps in the first place.. tune the game and iq for solid 30 and vsync it.

SparkTR · Jun 12, 2015

It doesn't? 30fps on consoles still feels like 30fps to me.

icecold1983 · Jun 12, 2015

Seanspeed said:
No, it doesn't. It's good for a 30fps game, but it's still noticeably 30fps. Playing it back to back with a game like Assetto Corsa is still a world of difference. Sense of speed is not the same thing as framerate.

Anyways, use Rivatuner Statistics or MSI Afterburner and Nvidia's 1/2 refresh rate vsync for the exact same '30fps feeling' you get on consoles.

ive tried every option there is, and 30 fps never feels as good on pc as console.

Durante · Jun 12, 2015

Yeah, while there are perhaps more games with framepacing issues on PC than consoles (unless you spend the 2 minutes fixing it), the psychological component also seems huge to me.

When you're used to playing at 60 FPS in a given scenario (e.g. on your PC) then 30 FPS will feel worse.

Oh, and a third factor is the mouse. It's a much more sensitive input device to framerate. For me, the quickest way to tell if I'm running 120 Hz on the dektop is just to move the mouse pointer.

icecold1983 · Jun 12, 2015

Durante said:
Yeah, while there are perhaps more games with framepacing issues on PC than consoles (unless you spend the 2 minutes fixing it), the psychological component also seems huge to me.

When you're used to playing at 60 FPS in a given scenario (e.g. on your PC) then 30 FPS will feel worse.

Oh, and a third factor is the mouse. It's a much more sensitive input device to framerate. For me, the quickest way to tell if I'm running 120 Hz on the dektop is just to move the mouse pointer.

do tvs really have "processing" that monitors dont that would increase perceived smoothness?

Durante · Jun 12, 2015

icecold1983 said:
do tvs really have "processing" that monitors dont that would increase perceived smoothness?

No.

icecold1983 · Jun 12, 2015

Durante said:
No.

yeah, the post earlier in the thread was the first id ever heard of it

Caayn · Jun 12, 2015

Seanspeed said:
It's just frametimes. Framerates aren't the best measure of smoothness/consistency. I imagine the consoles generally have good frame limiter solutions onboard, while on PC, you have to kind of know which program to use.

Here's an example with The Witcher 3, taken from Durante's PC Gamer article titled 'The Alchemy of Smoothness':

This last image represents the most consistent and smooth 30fps possible. This is the 'console-like' smoothness people are talking about. See how using a different program(RTSS) is preferable to using the in-game limiter?

Thanks for the graphs. Explains perfectly why 30fps on PC feels worse.

How come that third-paty tools are better at this than the official drivers?

Seanspeed · Jun 12, 2015

icecold1983 said:
ive tried every option there is, and 30 fps never feels as good on pc as console.

Do you sit farther away from the display you use to play console games while sitting close to a monitor for PC games?

bj00rn_ · Jun 12, 2015

Durante said:
No.

You are right of course. But varying response times might be a factor.

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