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[belmonkey]

It's just frametimes. Framerates aren't the best measure of smoothness/consistency. I imagine the consoles generally have good frame limiter solutions onboard, while on PC, you have to kind of know which program to use.

Here's an example with The Witcher 3, taken from Durante's PC Gamer article titled 'The Alchemy of Smoothness':

This last image represents the most consistent and smooth 30fps possible. This is the 'console-like' smoothness people are talking about. See how using a different program(RTSS) is preferable to using the in-game limiter?

So just to be perfectly clear: the way to achieve the best framepacing with minimal input lag at a locked 30 FPS is to:

Enable:

Rivatuner Statistics Server 30 FPS lock
Borderless Windowed for real triple buffering

Disable:

In-game triple buffering
In-game V-sync
In-game FPS limiter

Is that correct?

 

[icecold1983]

Do you sit farther away from the display you use to play console games while sitting close to a monitor for PC games?

yes, but the difference is probably smaller than youre thinking. my eyes are about 3 feet from the screen when i play on my pc, and 6 when i play consoles.

 

[daninthemix]

So just to be perfectly clear: the way to achieve the best framepacing with minimal input lag at a locked 30 FPS is to:

Enable:

Rivatuner Statistics Server 30 FPS lock
Borderless Windowed for real triple buffering

Disable:

In-game triple buffering
In-game V-sync
In-game FPS limiter

Is that correct?

I use Nvidia Inspector to lock the frame-rate instead of RTSS. I also enable half-refresh v-sync.

Borderless Windowed for the triple buffering is great but I don't use it with Witcher 3 because the only crash I ever had was with BW, so I've been full-screen ever since.

Borderless Windowed plus a low max pre-rendered frames setting is the way to combat the input lag of 30fps. I have max pre-rendered frames set to 1 globally.

 

[leng jai]

Is half refresh rate vsync meant to have ridiculous screen tearing?

 

[KKRT00]

Is half refresh rate vsync meant to have ridiculous screen tearing?

No.

 

[CouchMaster]

I've always wondered about this - why is it that 30fps on console always feels much better than it does on PC? Whenever I play games with a locked 30fps on console (like DriveClub, The Order, Horizon 2 etc) it feels fine. Whenever I lock games to 30FPS on PC it always feels like there's some stutter effect and input lag. I tried playing The Witcher 3 at 1620p/30fps as opposed to 1080p/60fps and I really couldn't stand it despite how much cleaner it look IQ wise. From what I've read I understand it has something to do with vsync and your TV's refresh rate. Is there any way to make it feel as good on PC?

Just a side note - TLOU Remaster had an option to lock the framerate to 30FPS and that felt similarly awful too which makes me things even more confusing. People will say it's placebo/recency effect but I'm sure it has something to do with the method used to lock the FPS.

You feel this effect when you jump between 30 and 60fps on the fly, which is the primary reason why it feels more pronounced on PC. If a console game lets you choose between the two you'll feel the same effect (TLoU for eg) If Driveclub had 60fps mode and you played that for 10 min then went back to 30fps again, you won't believe how you were able to play in 30 all this while.

 

[SeanTSC]

No.

What about Plasma TVs? On the motion smoothness stuff to test Motion Resolution with 120/144hz lightboost I've had my ST60 (with *everything* turned off) get near the same results as 120hz monitors do and BlurBusters has had an article about Plasmas doing that as well. Though, from my limited understanding, it's not "Proccessing" so much as it is how Plasmas refresh frames working different than LCDs do. I think how Panasonic's FFDs work also has something to do with me noticing judder/stutter in games on them less than on other displays.

 

[Mithos]

So just to be perfectly clear: the way to achieve the best framepacing with minimal input lag at a locked 30 FPS is to:

Enable:

Rivatuner Statistics Server 30 FPS lock
Borderless Windowed for real triple buffering

Disable:

In-game triple buffering
In-game V-sync
In-game FPS limiter

Is that correct?

And is this the exact thing to do for every single game or is the "2 minute fixing" different for every damn game?

 

[leng jai]

No.

The Witcher 3 screen tears like crazy with half refresh rate vsync. I must be doing something wrong.

 

[SaberEdge]

It doesn't if you use the right method. External framerate limiters always produce some amount of stutter in my experience. Instead, use Nvidia Inspector's "1/2 refresh rate" setting under Vertical Sync, or the "Adaptive (half refresh rate)" setting in the Nvidia Control Panel. This will give you a properly timed 30fps.

This is literally exactly the same thing as a 30fps game on consoles. The display is typically refreshing 60 times a second and each unique frame of the game is displayed twice.

The only other reasons it might feel different is if you are using a mouse and keyboard the non-linear speed of the camera motion does not look or feel that great at only 30fps. Gamepad movement is much more forgiving at 30fps. The other reason is that when you go between higher framerates and a capped 30fps you really notice the inferior motion clarity and poorer controller response, similar to what some people mentioned about going between 60fps and 30fps in The Last of Us Remastered.

 

[The Dear Leader]

RivaTuner is your friend, it's the best if you need to lock something at 30fps.

 

[SaberEdge]

The Witcher 3 screen tears like crazy with half refresh rate vsync. I must be doing something wrong.

Personally I don't like the "Adaptive (half refresh rate)" method in the Nvidia Control Panel for that very reason. I hate any amount of screen tearing. I personally use and get the best results with the "1/2 refresh rate" setting in Nvidia Inspector. The latter method allows you to use "adaptive" or "standard" VSync settings, whereas the Nvidia Control Panel only offers adaptive vsync at half refresh rate.

 

[Whitman's Ghost]

No, he isn't missing the point. The guy he was responding to said that DriveClub looks and plays like a 60fps game.

It's just harder to tell. 60FPS is overblown in racers for a lot of people that do not play with wheels because you are not controlling a camera and you don't see nearly the amount of natural judder in 30FPS. Third person games have loads of judder. Motion blur helps a little. Racers like Driveclub to me can be tolerated for a variety of these same reasons.

But yeah you are right racers are in fact a lot more smooth when you are playing 60FPS solid.

And the OP is pretty much wrong IMO. Games like TLOU R looked pretty damn juddery at 30FPS.

 

[Whitman's Ghost]

Personally I don't like the "Adaptive (half refresh rate)" method in the Nvidia Control Panel for that very reason. I hate any amount of screen tearing. I personally use and get the best results with the "1/2 refresh rate" setting in Nvidia Inspector. The latter method allows you to use "adaptive" or "standard" VSync settings, whereas the Nvidia Control Panel only offers adaptive vsync at half refresh rate.

Yeah, I think I should probably use that setting.

 

[Fret]

The reason is simple - controllers and TVs give far more input lag compared to a mouse and monitor. Its easy to get used to 30fps on a console because a controller isnt very accurate, but with the precision of a mouse 30fps is extremely slow and infuriating

 

[Kibbles]

Some people have posted about TVs vs monitors but I would game on my 360 on the same monitor as my computer and I could still notice a difference. In fact the monitor felt a lot more responsive and smoother than HDTVs I've played on at friends houses.

 

[CTLance]

In addition to the reasons that have already been mentioned I think a tiny part is also psychological.

On a PC there is always the knowledge that you could

tweak this setting
or install that mod
or rummage through those ini files
or install better hardware
or reboot
or do a fresh OS install
or kill background processes
or update your drivers
or move the game into your SSD
or research optimisation guides on the net
or ...

...whereas consoles are WYSIWYG. This will always influence you, even if only subconsciously. You will look more critically at something you know full well you can influence as opposed to something you can't do shit about.

Not claiming that it's not the frame pacing etc. - quite the opposite. It's just that PC gaming is fundamentally different from console gaming in how you approach your games. And obviously that changes how you look at them.

 

[CouchMaster]

The reason is simple - controllers and TVs give far more input lag compared to a mouse and monitor. Its easy to get used to 30fps on a console because a controller isnt very accurate, but with the precision of a mouse 30fps is extremely slow and infuriating

That's not true. I've never played a PC game on a monitor with kb/mouse, its the same setup as consoles except over HDMI 2 and bluetooth dongle/DS4 and it is still noticeable.

 

[leng jai]

The reason is simple - controllers and TVs give far more input lag compared to a mouse and monitor. Its easy to get used to 30fps on a console because a controller isnt very accurate, but with the precision of a mouse 30fps is extremely slow and infuriating

I'm using a controller and the same TV for both consoles/PC, so that's not it.

 

[dock]

The reason is simple - controllers and TVs give far more input lag compared to a mouse and monitor. Its easy to get used to 30fps on a console because a controller isnt very accurate, but with the precision of a mouse 30fps is extremely slow and infuriating

Do you honestly believe that wireless gamepads for consoles have lag?
There are plenty of conclusive tests showing otherwise, with wired controllers being equivalent to homeopathy at this point.

As for TV lag, there are TVs without this problem.
I'm often surprised when gamers buy a TV with lag problems.

 

[Ty4on]

That's interesting. Appreciate the graphs. This could be what it is then. Any idea if the Last of Us Remaster has frame pacing issues running 30fps?

Doesn't look like it.

You get the square wave when the frame rates dip below 60, but that is unavoidable with vsync on. If there had been frame pacing issues you'd see it dip to something like 100ms. It's depressingly common in PC games.

 

[Zakalwe]

Yea, we've seen several games this generation with poor frame pacing on the consoles, bizarrely. Destiny, The Witcher 3(before it was capped) and Bloodborne the most notable examples.

Destiny? That game always felt as smooth as 30fpd could be to me.

Bloodborne obviously did, but playing Destiny now I can't notice it at all.

 

[SeanTSC]

Destiny? That game always felt as smooth as 30fpd could be to me.

Bloodborne obviously did, but playing Destiny now I can't notice it at all.

IIRC they fixed it pre-launch.

 

[ghst]

That's why games ljke DriveClub can exist. Despite being 30fps it looks and plays like a 60fps racer. Still has the best sense of speed of any racer since Burnout to me

driveclub: how one mediocre racer broke through boundaries of optical science through the power of proprietary fandom.

 

[Scrabble]

I'm using an r9 290 and use RTSS to limit to 30, but people also recommend Nvidia 1/2 Vsync to go with it. Is there an amd option for 1/2 Vsync or using a 30 hz refresh rate?

 

[Renekton]

I use Radeonpro, Afterburner and D3DO. Sometimes in tandem. It's a crapshoot for PC, always. I figured the best solution is just 60fps or bust.

Having said that, PS4X1 seems increasingly plagued by framepacing issues. Bloodborne was slightly off but I adapted to it NP within an hour.

 

[R_Deckard]

No.

They do.. its called Motion Interpolation but each Tv manufacturer calls in different things and they work ever so slightly differently, but many leave this on "Motion Flow", "ClearFrame" and such are good examples of it in the menu.

This can create a smoother effect by adding frames but is not great for games, turn it off.

 

[heringer]

Control input is a factor too. Controllers aren't as sensitive and precise as mouse + keyboard. Other than that, it's a blend of motion blur with how far you are from your monitor/TV.

 

[Cannon Goose]

I'm using an r9 290 and use RTSS to limit to 30, but people also recommend Nvidia 1/2 Vsync to go with it. Is there an amd option for 1/2 Vsync or using a 30 hz refresh rate?

I'm pretty sure that RadeonPro has options for forcing refresh rate and half v-sync.

 

[Peterthumpa]

How can I play a game when using bordless fullscreen using DSR? The image never scales to the monitor size and I end up seeing just a portion of the screen.

 

[metareferential]

Control input is a factor too. Controllers aren't as sensitive and precise as mouse + keyboard. Other than that, it's a blend of motion blur with how far you are from your monitor/TV.

So basically a combination of lesser experiences make a better one for many people.

xD

Thanks Durante and others for the tech explanations.

 

[Beerman462]

MSI Afterburner window borderless and RTSS have helped me alot recently. I normally have enough power to run near 60fps no problem. GTA 5 and W3 stressed my system at high settings so getting a locked 30fps on W3 and using MSI to watch frame times allowed me to tune both game to run great.

 

[batman2million]

I'm stilling fighting to find the best setting for locking games at 30 fps. Witcher 3 was mess and I don't know if it was the game or my system. I'm hoping to do with same with Arkham Knight.

Right now I'm just using RTSS at 30fps and Vsync from Nvidia inspector to just "on"

I'm going to keep trying to mess with it to see the best setting.


EDIT: I hope this isn't a dumb question. Should my frame pacing be the same as my frame rate?

 

[FunkyDealer]

Here's what I planned to write:

"I think it's because most PC monitors are built with a specific hz in mind, whereas TV's scale better and need to be good at lower hz like in television broadcasts and film.

I'm basing this on the fact that I've played games on the same computer with the built-in laptop screen, an external monitor and a TV. The same game running with the same settings on the same PC felt and looked nicer on a TV."

Then I remembered that I used the same external monitor for my old Wii, and it was fine.

 

[Oemenia]

I always wanted to ask this but was scared that I'd be labelled a filthy console peasent. Either way some good info ITT. On PC, anything between 30-60 FPS makes my eyes burn.

 

[Lord Error]

30fps will always feel worse on PC if you use the mouse for control. Mouse is the kind of input that requires 1:1 smoothness, which is not the case with the controller.

30fps in TLOU feels worse than 30fps in say The Order because of inferior motion blur solution, and the fact that motion blur in TLOU is calibrated for 60fps 'shutter' even when you play in 30fps mode.

 

[dragonfart28]

You missed the point of the OP and thread. Eg that playing a PC racer (Eg Project Cars or Assetto Corsa) locked to 30fps on a PC, would likely feel and look less smooth than DriveClub or Forza Horizon 2, despite the two running at the same frame rate.

This is complete nonsense and I have never experienced any such phenomenon on a PC game that is truly locked at 30fps.

30 fps will always feel worse on PC if you use the mouse for control. Mouse is the kind of input that requires 1:1 smoothness, which is not the case with the controller.

This could be the explanation if there is one.

I actually play most games on my PC with a controller and on a HDTV and have not had any issues when locked at 30.

 

[Renekton]

Control input is a factor too. Controllers aren't as sensitive and precise as mouse + keyboard.

Disagree. I play using controller on PC games too.

 

[Skyzard]

Seriously, RTSS works on windows 10 right lol?

Otherwise I'm not upgrading.


I usually go for a higher framerate but if I'm dropping to 30 then it's golden solid.

 

[Garrus Vakarian]

This could be the explanation if there is one.

I actually play most games on my PC with a controller and have not had any issues when locked at 30.

Agreed, I reckon it is the controller that dampens the impact of the lessened responsiveness, I am much more comfortable with a controller on a game locked at 30 on pc than with a M/K.

 

[Lord Error]

This could be the explanation if there is one.

I actually play most games on my PC with a controller and on a HDTV and have not had any issues when locked at 30.

It's not the only reason (frame limiter alogarithm is a big factor too) but all things being the same, mouse control feels horrible at 30fps - and I say that as someone who has no problems whatsoever enjoying 30fps games played with a controller.

 

[Windom Earle]

It doesn't if you do it right. HOWEVER, chances are you tested playing at higher fps before locking to 30, so it will automatically feel sluggish.

 

[Methos#1975]

Might be a stupid question, but can someone prime me on how to use RTTS. I have it installed and I have FPS limited to 30 within it, but it doesn't seem to actually do anything

 

[Fitts]

Amazing. I'm just getting back into PC gaming and had a similar experience with Witcher 3. Using the same monitor as I have with my consoles, it's a blurry mess when limiting to 30fps. Fortunately, it's gorgeous at 60fps and my build is handling the game just fine -- better than expected, actually.

This thread was informative.

 

[petran79]

one thing I read from the CRT days was that PC monitors have a higher bandwidth than TVs.
Is this term today still relevant?

 

[ThisGuy]

No, it doesn't. It's good for a 30fps game, but it's still noticeably 30fps. Playing it back to back with a game like Assetto Corsa is still a world of difference. Sense of speed is not the same thing as framerate.

Anyways, use Rivatuner Statistics or MSI Afterburner and Nvidia's 1/2 refresh rate vsync for the exact same '30fps feeling' you get on consoles.

Okay I'm eager to try this because this was my biggest grief with the witcher 3 (30fps feeling like butt). Where at in msi afterburner do I limit fps in games?

Under the monitoring tab, in active hardware, should I select framerate and frametime?

 

[leng jai]

So how exactly do I use half refresh rate vsync in The Witcher 3 without it tearing like crazy? It's essentially the same as having now vsync.

 

[epmode]

driveclub: how one mediocre racer broke through boundaries of optical science through the power of proprietary fandom.

That's probably too long for the next OT title. Too bad.

 

[csquared587]

So how exactly do I use half refresh rate vsync in The Witcher 3 without it tearing like crazy? It's essentially the same as having now vsync.

I just did the RTSS method without nvidia adaptive Vsync, and it felt very smooth to me. much more smooth than anything else I've tried.

 

[Methos#1975]

I just did the RTSS method without nvidia adaptive Vsync, and it felt very smooth to me. much more smooth than anything else I've tried.

Seriously, bestow your wisdom on me. When I set the limit to 30 in RTSS, its working on every game but Witcher 3 for me lol. What is up here?