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Digital Foundry's evidence-based analysis on Xbox Cloud potential

Man

Member
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

Latency said:
To put this in perspective, when the logic circuits of a CPU want some data, they have to wait a few nanoseconds (billionths of a second) to retrieve it from its cache.... If the CPU were to ask the cloud to calculate something, the answer won't be available for potentially 100ms or more, depending on internet latency - some 100,000,000 nanoseconds!
Bandwidth said:
The PS4 memory system allocates around 20,000MB/s for the CPU of its total 176,000MB/s. The cloud can provide one twenty-thousandth of the data to the CPU that the PS4's system memory can. You may have an internet connection that's much better than 8mbps of course, but even superfast fibre-optic broadband at 50mbps equates to an anaemic 6MB/s
Economy said:
Beyond the technical considerations of what is and isn't possible due to bandwidth and latency constraints, there are of course economic considerations. Running a server to provide a solo player game is extremely expensive. It makes far more sense to use the servers to run multiplayer games
Lies said:
When you play Battlefield 3 on your Xbox 360, do you have the equivalent power of a dozen Xbox 360s because the server is notionally that powerful? Microsoft's claims seem pretty wishy-washy against such a comparison, and without the explicit clarification that they are literally installing four teraflops of server power for each and every Xbox One bought, the claims of that power target can only be considered bogus PR hand-waving to try and detract from the performance deficit with their rival.
Deceit said:
What's obvious at this point is that the concept of cloud computing looks uncertain and unlikely, and Microsoft needs to prove its claims with actual software. Yet based on what we've been told, the firm itself isn't sure of what uses to put it to, while the limitations of latency and bandwidth severely impede the benefits of all that computing power.
Put up or shut up said:
Microsoft needs to prove its position with strong ideas and practical demonstrations. Until then, it's perhaps best not to get too carried away with the idea of a super-powered console, and there's very little evidence that Sony needs to be worried about its PS4 specs advantage being comprehensively wiped out by "the power of the cloud".

I believe Evolved1 summed it up pretty elegantly:

mw897ul.jpg
 
I just don't get how they are going to sell the power of the cloud without always-online. I mean I guess it has potential but how are they going to allow an 'offline' version of a game without severely impairing it?
 

Exentryk

Member
That was a good article. Doesn't look good for Xbone.

EDIT - Except the inclusion of Euclideon's Geoverse. That is a scam.
 
Are X1 games going to have a notice or warning on the game stating it requires an always-on connection? I could seriously see this backfiring big time. I'm not discounting the "power of the cloud", but without a stead speed and always-on internet connection, the cloud can't work for everyone...

So devs will either need to create two games, or the features that use the cloud will be superficial at best.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Thank you Digital Foundry for pushing back on these absurd claims
Yeah, I'm glad DF said something. Cloud computing has potential but not for several years yet and not on the scale/speed Microsoft claims. It really just reeks of an excuse for Always Online.
 
Eurogamer said:
Things like time-of-day can be uploaded to the server, and the relevant rendered lighting for the local area sent back over a few minutes. This data will be saved to HDD and retrieved as the player walks around.

They could put the same data on a 50GB Blu-ray disc... no need for "the cloud" here.
 

vareon

Member
I just don't get how they are going to sell the power of the cloud without always-online. I mean I guess it has potential but how are they going to allow an 'offline' version of a game without severely impairing it?

They just need to sell an SKU with cloud expansion pack included, obviously!
 
Thank you Digital Foundry for pushing back on these absurd claims

people will believe what they want to believe, and 'the cloud' seems like a term that people have been fooled into believing is some magical thing, even though they can't explain how it's different to the internet, or how it works at all.
 

Hypron

Member
Until proven otherwise, I put the "infinite power of the cloud" in the same category as the ps3's "4D" and the megadrive's "blast processing".
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Gemüsepizza;59734305 said:
They could put the same data on a 50GB Blu-ray disc... no need for "the cloud" here.

or render it slowly using spare cycles like they currently do. both would seem to be better solutions than relying on an internet connection.
 
I still wonder while all of a sudden in this gen it is power that matters most? When was the last time the most powerful console in a gen was the best one with the best games? In fact it is usually the opposite and this was clearly recognized until very recently.

The PS2 did fine when the Xbox was clearly producing better looking games, same with the PS1 VS N64 etc.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's marketing spin to counter the fact that its more conservative specs might not fully measure up to PS4.
 

Gori

Member
Yeah. Microsoft needs to make it real by showing us something really fun that uses it, it's quite simple. Or at least show us what it could become with some fake reel like Kinect.

Nintendo won with motion controls because they showed it together with Wii Sports.

If you have the cloud, tell us about it, and then at least TEASE a fucking multiplayer game where the AI is in the cloud. This would make me believe that this is the future.

They still don't have that killer app for Kinect, even.
 

Omikaru

Member
Thank you Digital Foundry for pushing back on these absurd claims

I think Microsoft's misinformation campaign has failed anyway. So much negative buzz about the system and I think people are starting to tune it out, at least in "core" circles who are usually considered trendsetters on these expensive systems.

At any rate, it is nice to see someone in the press not simply gobbling these cloud claims up without an ounce of critical thought.
 
I still wonder while all of a sudden in this gen it is power that matters most? When was the last time the most powerful console in a gen was the best one with the best games? In fact it is usually the opposite and this was clearly recognized until very recently.

The PS2 did fine when the Xbox was clearly producing better looking games, same with the PS1 VS N64 etc.

It doesn't matter to the casuals, but communities like GAF care for it. It's also a great way to start flame wars!
 
I still wonder while all of a sudden in this gen it is power that matters most? When was the last time the most powerful console in a gen was the best one with the best games? In fact it is usually the opposite and this was clearly recognized until very recently.

The PS2 did fine when the Xbox was clearly producing better looking games, same with the PS1 VS N64 etc.

When we have the same launch date, the same price and mostly the same games and almost the same sale figures last gen, then specs become more important. It would be very different if one console will launch 2 years later or is twice as expensive.
 

UberTag

Member
I just don't get how they are going to sell the power of the cloud without always-online. I mean I guess it has potential but how are they going to allow an 'offline' version of a game without severely impairing it?
Clearly the games that are Cloud-dependent will be always-online. Period.
 
"The power of the cloud" is just one of a series of golden shit nuggets including 5 billion transistors, rocket science and 200gb/s system bandwidth.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Gemüsepizza;59734641 said:
When we have the same launch date, the same price and mostly the same games and almost the same sale figures last gen, then specs become more important.

I think that's fair.

Honestly, I found the specs of the Wii U to be irreverent because of the precedent of the underpowered Wii, and every implication that they were not competing on power.

But Xbone vs PS4? How could we not compare?
 

spwolf

Member
Yeah, I'm glad DF said something. Cloud computing has potential but not for several years yet and not on the scale/speed Microsoft claims. It really just reeks of an excuse for Always Online.

even if we magically solve all the problems (which we cant), absurdity of it is that if you take up server resources via offline gaming, someone has to pay for it.

so it makes no sense at all to use "cloud" for offline gaming on expensive console... its absurd notion from business perspective.

you can do it like Onlive, and use cheap thin client to access cloud gaming and pay for it on monthly basis... but for PS4/XO offline games to rely on expensive server resources without paying some large monthly fee... it just does not make any sense for Microsoft.
 
I think most of us had these same doubts from the start. There are just too many technological barriers to allow real time rendering through the cloud.
 

Kevf

Neo Member
So with a 100Mb line (12,5MB), you would have an advantage of

12,5 / 176.000 * 100 % = 0,071% ?

or with only cpu

12,5 / 20000 * 100% = 0,063% ?

Is it really that simple and that little?

The PS4 memory system allocates around 20,000MB/s for the CPU of its total 176,000MB/s. The cloud can provide one twenty-thousandth of the data to the CPU that the PS4's system memory can. You may have an internet connection that's much better than 8mbps of course, but even superfast fibre-optic broadband at 50mbps equates to an anaemic 6MB/s. This represents a significant bottleneck to what can be processed on the cloud, and that's before upload speed is even considered. Upload speed is a small fraction of download speed, and this will greatly reduce how much information a job can send to the cloud to process. Taking the Forza crash example, if the console has to upload both the car collision mesh and scenery mesh to the cloud for it to calculate whether they have collided or not, that's going to take several seconds.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
I still wonder while all of a sudden in this gen it is power that matters most? When was the last time the most powerful console in a gen was the best one with the best games? In fact it is usually the opposite and this was clearly recognized until very recently.

The PS2 did fine when the Xbox was clearly producing better looking games, same with the PS1 VS N64 etc.

Right. But this is not a thread about the eventual popularity contests. This is a thread discussion the claims regarding the capabilities of the Xbone. I don't see how what you are saying is relevant to the issue at hand.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I still wonder while all of a sudden in this gen it is power that matters most? When was the last time the most powerful console in a gen was the best one with the best games? In fact it is usually the opposite and this was clearly recognized until very recently.

The PS2 did fine when the Xbox was clearly producing better looking games, same with the PS1 VS N64 etc.
I hate this reasoning. True, power isn't a primary factor for marketshare but it's certainly a consideration people make and one that is extra important to enthusiasts that make up GAF.
 
In before Digital Foundry is teh biased!

Anyway totally unsurprising. MS does not even show a tech demo to show off a proof of concept. Not even a god damn white paper. It sounds like something last ditch pulled out of their ass to counter the PS4 hype.
 

PJV3

Member
Instead of 30 minutes being dedicated to TV features, they should have spent some if it showing the cloud in action.

Nobody would want cloud stuff at E3, so they could still concentrate on games.
 
Nice to hear the press talking about this. Off topic, I've started using the phrase "infinite power of the cloud" in everyday speech.
 

Gori

Member
They did not say anything new....
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58999753&postcount=263


99% of the rendering pipeline requires insanely fast access times and high bandwiths. Remainder could be helped by the cloud, but it will not have much impact on visuals. AI rendering of the large groups of people [factions] could have the biggest impact.

Yes, but this is for current-type-gaming though. I don't think offloading to the cloud will be generally worth it with the games we already play.

I'm hoping they actually have some NEW ideas. Incorporating MMO ideas into single/multiplayer experiences, for example. Give us some massive worlds and cities that are alive because they are run on the server!
 

mandiller

Member
In 15 years time when the Xbone is ancient and long ago replaced and the servers are all shut down, will all my games stop working because they can't access the 'cloud' any more?

Even if the cloud did bring a specs advantage to games, I don't think I'd want it.
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
Yes, but this is for current-type-gaming though. I don't think offloading to the cloud will be generally worth it with the games we already play.

I'm hoping they actually have some NEW ideas. Incorporating MMO ideas into single/multiplayer experiences, for example. Give us some massive worlds and cities that are alive because they are run on the server!
And who would pay for all those servers running these massive cities/worlds? ;)
I'm sure we'll see some companies/publishers push for this but I fear that they'll try to offload the annual TCO to consumers in the end.
 
The interesting bit for me is the suggestion that even if you have a super-fast fibre optic 50mbs connection, the benefit in processing power is 6mb/s.


The PS4 memory system allocates around 20,000MB/s for the CPU of its total 176,000MB/s. The cloud can provide one twenty-thousandth of the data to the CPU that the PS4's system memory can. You may have an internet connection that's much better than 8mbps of course, but even superfast fibre-optic broadband at 50mbps equates to an anaemic 6MB/s. This represents a significant bottleneck to what can be processed on the cloud...

I think MS better drop this 'cloud' PR speak.
 

Atrophis

Member
It's clear to everyone with an ounce of common sense that these claims are pie in the sky fantasy.

They are only pushing it to spread FUD about PS4.
 

Maximilian E.

AKA MS-Evangelist
In before Digital Foundry is teh biased!

Anyway totally unsurprising. MS does not even show a tech demo to show off a proof of concept. Not even a god damn white paper. It sounds like something last ditch pulled out of their ass to counter the PS4 hype.

So that is what E3 is for?

Some people really have no patience..
 

V_Arnold

Member
There are a few things(!) that should be great, but they do not require "MICROSOFT(TM) CLOUD", only a server-based single-player/multiplayer experience.

1) If you have a huge map that has tons of objects interacting with each other, then your console/pc only needs to calculate the events that happen in your recognizable vicinity (the area you can reach/interact with) - everything else can be simply calculated server-side, and feed into your client once you reach there. And when you are there, your system starts calculating the stuff once it is your interaction.

2) Combine the above with a game where you "log into" a virtual world (think Omikron, think Shenmue, think GTA with sci-fi, think Watch Dogs without the shooting-focus, think Blade Runner, whatever), and instead of waiting a LOOONG time to generate the "current state" of the city you just logged into (with your single-player character), the game just loads the initial data directly from the servers. It is not really a processing-heavy stuff, as you could have millions of players requesting data from their game start, but at the same time, you only need a constant ongoing process of calculating the virtual world's state - once.

Of course, the thing about this that it requires a clear vision, it is not easily marketable (so while it would require resources, it does not seem like something that would immediately boost your sales potential), and it also does not need the MS CLOUD but simply an online infrastructure. If the CLOUD marketing and all its bullshit potentially helps us to get there, good. But I feel like it wont be enough. Directors with clear and daring visions of such games is a way to go, and players supporting the idea - I am willing to support good ideas like that, just not on Xbox One :p
 
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