Support NeoGAF

[Durante]

or render it slowly using spare cycles like they currently do. both would seem to be better solutions than relying on an internet connection.

Not if you want to justify your always-on DRM system or deflect from direct hardware comparisons. The Azure Cloud with its 300.000 servers is extremely good at these essential next-gen tasks.

even if we magically solve all the problems (which we cant), absurdity of it is that if you take up server resources via offline gaming, someone has to pay for it.

so it makes no sense at all to use "cloud" for offline gaming on expensive console... its absurd notion from business perspective.

you can do it like Onlive, and use cheap thin client to access cloud gaming and pay for it on monthly basis... but for PS4/XO offline games to rely on expensive server resources without paying some large monthly fee... it just does not make any sense for Microsoft.

That's the really devastating thing in my opinion: even if you solve all the technical problems (which is basically impossible in the general case), the business case for cloud-assisted computing in games still doesn't make much sense! And not just because of server costs, but also because of implementation and testing costs for developers. None of the presented scenarios seem to even remotely pay off in terms of advantage/effort.

Do they disprove/rubbish the 300k server claim?

I still think that's a strange thing to focus on -- whether or not there are 30k or 300k or 3 million or 30 million servers in Azure doesn't really make a difference for any of this.

 

[Amir0x]

In 15 years time when the Xbone is ancient and long ago replaced and the servers are all shut down, will all my games stop working because they can't access the 'cloud' any more?

Even if the cloud did bring a specs advantage to games, I don't think I'd want it.

According to Microsoft, this is really only going to be a problem around the year 2040. Of course that's only 27 years, which of course is less time than the time between now and when the NES released, but who's really keeping track? Nobody will ever want to go back and play these games anyway, right?

 

[PJV3]

How can they show what isn't true?

That's sort of my point, if they had it they wouldn't have shown the price is right. or a yet unfilmed Halo tv show.

 

[Fistwell]

Good read. I'm on the server's side.

 

[BocoDragon]

According to Microsoft, this is really only going to be a problem around the year 2040. Of course that's only 27 years, which of course is less time than the time between now and when the NES released, but who's really keeping track? Nobody will ever want to go back and play these games anyway, right?

Don't worry.. we will have cloud server emulators by then ;P

(sort of joking... it probably will happen... but screw the need for that).

 

[onQ123]

How about something like a Basketball Game or Boxing game where they can offload the crowd rendering to the cloud & use all of the Xbox GPU/CPU for the action that's being controlled by you?

 

[HelloMeow]

So with a 100Mb line (12,5MB), you would have an advantage of

12,5 / 176.000 * 100 % = 0,071% ?

or with only cpu

12,5 / 20000 * 100% = 0,063% ?

Is it really that simple and that little?

Well, the most complex and time consuming calculations could need and return only a small amount of data.

 

[KidBeta]

How about something like a Basketball Game or Boxing game where they can offload the crowd rendering to the cloud & use all of the Xbox GPU/CPU for the action that's being controlled by you?

Streaming that data back is going to take a fair amount of bandwidth, as is passing the data to the cloud.

 

[KingSnake]

How about something like a Basketball Game or Boxing game where they can offload the crowd rendering to the cloud & use all of the Xbox GPU/CPU for the action that's being controlled by you?

Yes, if you want the crowd not to react to your actions. So pretty much any EA game can benefit of that.

 

[CyclopsRock]

One would assume that a useful function for the cloud computing would be server-side calculations in multi-players games. Already different games have different aspects calculated either client side or server hit (hit detection, physics etc). The more that goes on the server, the more that frees up on the client side for graphics etc (so less need to sacrifice visual quality in multiplayer). This is compounded by the fact that the Live servers could be sitting in the same rack as the Azure servers, reducing latency as much as humanly possible.

Of course, this wouldn't make your XBone 5x more powerful, but it is a theoretically sound (I think) use for the cloud that is practical with today's internet connections (since it wouldn't actually be the end user that's utilising the cloud directly).

 

[Beermeister]

I don't care if its 100x the PS4, I will not buy it anyway. Kinect, television, sports, privacy, drm etc.

 

[Bedlam]

Kinda funny that MS got called out on their "power of the cloud" buzzword bullshit so shortly before E3. I wonder if they are hastily rewriting scripts right now. I'm almost sure they'll work in a few more "next-gen is not just about graphics" or "we offer more than graphics" phrases.

 

[JaggedSac]

Great article. Bandwidth is certainly an issue and would have to be looked at being utilized in a way more similar to multiplayer games where game state is maintained on both client and server and each update the other with as small of packets as possible. I would imagine art assets would be hard to transmit across the wire in an interactive way anyway and that is a large portion of the bandwidth needs.

 

[feint_ruled]

1) If you have a huge map that has tons of objects interacting with each other, then your console/pc only needs to calculate the events that happen in your recognizable vicinity (the area you can reach/interact with) - everything else can be simply calculated server-side, and feed into your client once you reach there. And when you are there, your system starts calculating the stuff once it is your interaction.

This reminds me of an interesting article I read once. The example they used was a model was hunting for squirrels in a forest.

Approach 1, and an application for the cloud, would be to model squirrel birth and death rates, population growth over time, migration patterns and every variable you could imagine to tell you whether or not there would be a squirrel in any given tree. For a large forest, this could take considerable computing time.

Approach 2 is to do some statistical analysis to tell you there was a (say) 0.25 chance of a squirrel being in any given tree, and run that single calc.

Given there is no obvious difference to the player, who would pick method 1 over method 2?

 

[Amir0x]

Kinda funny that MS got called out on their "power of the cloud" buzzword bullshit so shortly before E3. I wonder if they are hastily rewriting scripts right now.

One thing I hope this massive negative fan reaction has caused is journalists in the industry to have some hard questions lined up when the Microsoft PR people rain down on E3. I hope they're really ready to grill these assholes.

 

[TheD]

One would assume that a useful function for the cloud computing would be server-side calculations in multi-players games. Already different games have different aspects calculated either client side or server hit (hit detection, physics etc). The more that goes on the server, the more that frees up on the client side for graphics etc (so less need to sacrifice visual quality in multiplayer). This is compounded by the fact that the Live servers could be sitting in the same rack as the Azure servers, reducing latency as much as humanly possible.

Of course, this wouldn't make your XBone 5x more powerful, but it is a theoretically sound (I think) use for the cloud that is practical with today's internet connections (since it wouldn't actually be the end user that's utilising the cloud directly).

That what multiplayer games already do and it has nothing to do with graphics rendering.

 

[V_Arnold]

This reminds me of an interesting article I read once. The example they used was a model was hunting for squirrels in a forest.

Approach 1, and an application for the cloud, would be to model squirrel birth and death rates, population growth over time, migration patterns and every variable you could imagine to tell you whether or not there would be a squirrel in any given tree. For a large forest, this could take considerable computing time.

Approach 2 is to do some statistical analysis to tell you there was a (say) 0.25 chance of a squirrel being in any given tree, and run that single calc.

Given there is no obvious difference to the player, who would pick method 1 over method 2?

One that can say "hunt in a virtual enviromnent paralell to other hunters, where your actions affect each other's". It is not an MMO in a traditional way, but yet you have the sense of "permanence" or "effect" regarding your actions and the state of the virtual world.

Of course, it is all wishful thinking since even most mainstream MMO's are moving AWAY from this model, and embrace the amusement park model instead.

 

[backbreaker65]

Demoing this on stage at E3 will be easy, because of a controlled environment and smoke and mirrors.

 

[xelios]

Knew it was bullshit when I heard it. Nice to see it confirmed. Sure wasn't falling for this crap after SimCity.

 

[IcyEyes]

Maybe MS just only try to hide the "always online" with the "power of clouds"

I mean, sound a lot better this:
Enhanced your gaming experience with the power of cloud*!

than this :
Connection required to play your game.






*online connection required

 

[nib95]

DF bringing a dose of reality. They will use cloud for some of the stuff mentioned, but basically as dedicated online servers for low latency online gaming advantages. The cloud computing rendering at a local level is just nonsense. They could use it for latency insensitive stuff, but it's more headache than it is advantageous.

This whole malarkey is as DF said, just so hide the hardware deficit between Xbox One and the PS4 and to push a DRM online agenda, similar PR fluff as the 200Gbps bandwidth claim.

My guess is they might show it off and aside from the dedicated server advantages, it'll just be smoke and mirrors. Just like the presentation which was done using clickers, not voice commands. Only far more unscrupulous and false.

 

[BY2K]

See, even if they try to prove it with a E3 demonstration, I know it could and will be bullshit, because the environment will be perfectly controlled so it goes exactly as Microsoft wants it to go.

*sigh*

 

[koji kabuto]

According to Microsoft, this is really only going to be a problem around the year 2040. Of course that's only 27 years, which of course is less time than the time between now and when the NES released, but who's really keeping track? Nobody will ever want to go back and play these games anyway, right?

Son, when i was your age i used to play this game ** holds a game blu-ray disk**, Unfortunately i can't let you try it now because MS shutdown the severs, So here is a video of me playing the game, Please imagine how fun it was.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Really glad the internet is pushing back on this bullshit.

Seeing this nonsense propagated on GAF by certain individuals the day after the unveil was fucking painful.

 

[ace3skoot]

One thing I hope this massive negative fan reaction has caused is journalists in the industry to have some hard questions lined up when the Microsoft PR people rain down on E3. I hope they're really ready to grill these assholes.

journalism in the games industry!?

It's fan outrage that caused all these questions to be asked, if we has more thna a handful of real journalist they would be asked difficult question all the time

 

[KingSnake]

And even if they can effectively "outsource" some calculations to the cloud there are very low chances that any developer will do that for the multiplat games. And that means all multiplat games will be worse on Xbone than on PS4 unless they are using Xbone as the basis. Even so, they could still have better things (textures, geometry, framerate) on PS4 and PC.

 

[Fistwell]

Kinda funny that MS got called out on their "power of the cloud" buzzword bullshit so shortly before E3. I wonder if they are hastily rewriting scripts right now. I'm almost sure they'll work in a few more "next-gen is not just about graphics" phrases.

I have this vision of an Xbox-team's pre-E3 war-room. A dozen unwashed, sweaty, several-weeks-old-beard-sporting dudes furiously typing on laptops as they draft, re-draft, and re-redraft the script of the E3 conference.

Piles of empty pizza boxes. Stench of dry sweat, stale beer, fear and urine.

The white board reads

Buzzword Shizzle

Infinite Power of the Cloud
Kinect 2, Always On, Always Watching
Please Watch Football. Please?
Think of it as a New Game!
Germany? Why on Earth Would I Live There?
...

 

[PJV3]

The power of the infinite MS cloud combined with the power of the PS4, nothing will be impossible.

 

[dollartaco]

The reaction to Microsoft's Infinite Cloud Power claims has been generally skeptical here except for a minority that were about as vocal as the GDDR5 glue huffers. But among a lot of gaming press, the talk has mirrored that of political campaign bullshit defference, i.e., "we're really excited to see what it can do" rather than "what they are describing isn't possible regardless of the number of servers they have." I hope outlets like DF start to turn that around.

 

[nib95]

Really glad the internet is pushing back on this bullshit.

Seeing this nonsense propagated on GAF by certain individuals the day after the unveil was fucking painful.

These are the same people that have been promoting rubbish for months now. Gullible doesn't even come in to it. From constantly downplaying rumours, to moving goal posts, inventing secret sauces, inventing specs advantages, regurgitating false PR and more.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

*Applause*

These are the same people that have been promoting rubbish for months now. Gullible doesn't even come in to it. From constantly downplaying rumours, to moving goal posts, inventing secret sauces, inventing specs advantages, regurgitating false PR and more.

Well that one guy Penguins&polarbears (I think) got banned for being a viral marketer, I have my suspicions about a few others as well tbh...

 

[Vashetti]

The power of the infinite MS cloud combined with the power of the PS4, nothing will be impossible.

Is the Wii U the USB accessory for this Über Console?

 

[Man]

Is the Wii U the USB accessory for this Über Console?

It's the data packet that will be teleported across the web.

 

[Bedlam]

even if we magically solve all the problems (which we cant), absurdity of it is that if you take up server resources via offline gaming, someone has to pay for it.

so it makes no sense at all to use "cloud" for offline gaming on expensive console... its absurd notion from business perspective.

you can do it like Onlive, and use cheap thin client to access cloud gaming and pay for it on monthly basis... but for PS4/XO offline games to rely on expensive server resources without paying some large monthly fee... it just does not make any sense for Microsoft.

Agree. This point is overlooked too often. It just doesn't make sense from an economical perspective. Those servers that would provide each Xbone user with 3 or 4 times the processing power of their local Xbone (lol@ that Booty claim) would cost MS a fortune; assuming that it would actually work of course. It most definitely would be way more costly than just releasing a slightly better spec'd console.

And even if it worked, those elusive "cloud" resources would likely be way too unreliable and inconsistent for any developer to base even semi-critical parts of their game on them. There are just too many variables in the whole cloud<->user chain (local internet speed etc).

 

[TheOddOne]

Still think its a bull.

Xbox One cloud is 'one area console has advantage over PS4', says Avalanche tech lead

But believes Sony could implement a similar feature in PS4 if Microsoft is successful.

Xbox One's cloud-side computing is one area that gives Microsoft's console an advantage over PlayStation 4, Avalanche Studios' chief technology officer Linus Blomberg has told VideoGamer.com, despite PS4 featuring more impressive 'raw power'.

Discussing the next-gen console alongside studio head Christofer Sundberg, Blomberg said that the console's ability to compute processes on the cloud is "definitely an area where the Xbox One has a step up over PS4, and it opens up for many interesting things.

"It's perfect for open-world games like ours as it enables techniques to make the game worlds more alive and social, such as persistence and asynchronous multiplayer features," he continued. "We are already using server-side computations in our PC hunting game theHunter, so that's nothing new for us as a concept. But Microsoft's solution may allow us to do this more efficiently and to a greater [extent]."

Xbox One's architecture is said to allow developers to off-load non-latency sensitive processes to the cloud, freeing up system resources on the console.

According to a report on Ars Technica, processes that could be off-loaded to the cloud include physics modelling, fluid dynamics and cloth modelling, each typically CPU-intensive.

A Microsoft representative (via stevivor.com) has also claimed that the cloud's processing capabilities will make the Xbox One "40 times" more powerful than the Xbox 360.

However, if the technology "proves successful for Microsoft", Blomberg expects "Sony to follow suit and add similar support" to PS4.

Whether Xbox One games perform will better than PS4 titles (or vice-versa), however, is "too early to say," Blomberg adds.

"I think [Xbox One and PS4] will be very similar in the end," Blomberg says. "Of course, if we find areas where either platform is particularly strong then we'll take advantage of that. But it's too early to say if our games will look better on any of the two platforms. All I can say is that there's potential for visually stunning games on both platforms."

Besides Xbox One's cloud-processing, Avalanche is also considering making of use of Kinect 2.0 and the console's TV functionality.

"If it makes the experience better, we’ll definitively support the Kinect and TV functionality," adds CCO Christofer Sundberg. "We have a few ideas at this point, but will only implement them if it adds to the core experience rather than take away from it."

Avalanche is currently gearing up for its "biggest" E3 since 2005, where it's expected to reveal a Mad Max title and a new game in the Just Cause series.

Avalanche boss 'understands' Xbox One disappointment

Sundberg says that Avalanche, which created the Just Cause series, has been "working with the Xbox One for quite some time," and the company is impressed by its capabilities.

"Our impressions from first sight until the recent public reveal have been positive," he says. "It's an impressive piece of hardware, and powerful hardware will obviously help our games look fantastic."

Microsoft faced harsh criticism from fans following the reveal of Xbox One last week, largely owing to the platform holder's focus on TV functionality and the ongoing confusion surrounding its policies on pre-owned software support and online requirements.

But once those issues have been clarified, the real battle between Sony and Microsoft "can finally kick off", Sundberg says.

"Once [Microsoft has] cleared any remaining question marks around touchy subjects like always-on and second-hand sales, they are able to focus on the games and the real console war can finally kick off."

Avalanche Studios is currently preparing for its "biggest" E3 since 2005, where it's rumoured to be revealing a next-gen Just Cause title and a game set in the Mad Max universe.

The studio's chief technical officer also believes that, despite the difference in raw power, the results offered by Xbox One and PS4 will be "very similar in the end".

 

[MasLegio]

journalism in the games industry!?

It's fan outrage that caused all these questions to be asked, if we has more thna a handful of real journalist they would be asked difficult question all the time

besides the on location and the day after coverage on web and podcasts I think the games media coverage has been pretty good

though IGNS podcast unlocked was awful and gutwrenching

 

[Risk Breaker]

Thank you, Digital Foundry, thank you.

 

[Lucifersam]

It doesn't matter to the casuals, but communities like GAF care for it. It's also a great way to start flame wars!

I thought GAF liked the PS2 and PS1 for the gaming experience they produced cause the games certainly were not as good looking as rival consoles?

Always thought this place was against graphic whores and put a premium on the actual games above pure tech specs? Why did that suddenly change?

 

[Amir0x]

Son, when i was your age i used to play this game ** holds a game blu-ray disk**, Unfortunately i can't let you try it now because MS shutdown the severs, So here is a video of me playing the game, Please imagine how fun it was.

Oh man now it makes sense to have the SHARE button on PS4 and the ability to share on Xbox One! They want you to save your gaming experiences for posterity on video so that when they finally shut down the servers there will be visual evidence that these games actually existed!

journalism in the games industry!?

It's fan outrage that caused all these questions to be asked, if we has more thna a handful of real journalist they would be asked difficult question all the time

Honestly it has been bad, but there have also been some real push back this time. So I think game journalists can get their shit together and go into E3 prepared this time to do some damage, or not... but at the very least, I expect a few people to get in some real severe questions. This is the biggest assault in this industries history, so I think it's kind of important.

 

[MasLegio]

*Applause*



Well that one guy Penguins&polarbears (I think) got banned for being a viral marketer, I have my suspicions about a few others as well tbh...

lol

I called that out weeks ago (if not months)

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Microsoft needs to prove its position with strong ideas and practical demonstrations. Until then, it's perhaps best not to get too carried away with the idea of a super-powered console, and there's very little evidence that Sony needs to be worried about its PS4 specs advantage being comprehensively wiped out by "the power of the cloud".

So wait til e3?

 

[TheD]

*Applause*



Well that one guy Penguins&polarbears (I think) got banned for being a viral marketer, I have my suspicions about a few others as well tbh...

I really wish being a viral marketer was a crime.

 

[Quasar]

This is compounded by the fact that the Live servers could be sitting in the same rack as the Azure servers, reducing latency as much as humanly possible.

I'm surprised Live is not running on top of Azure personally.

 

[HocusPocus]

I don't think anyone that is thinking of getting an Xbox One believes the cloud computing thing will in anyway compensate for the power gap to PS4. My believe is that Sony has the more powerful system by a good stretch, and nothing will change that. Where Sony (as they always do) invested more in their hardware of the machine, it appears that Microsoft had a different vision than brute force power. I do believe the gap in power to the PS4 will be noticable, but to what degree I'm unclear. I'm waiting for E3 to see the games as I'm not sure exactly what all that power will accomplish at 1080p resolution that the Xbox one can't do. If the consoles were targeting regular computer monitor resolutions at twice that resolution then Microsoft would most definiately be in trouble. The cloud computing thing sounds like a nice PR vehicle but to what extent they will be succesful / fail with it is yet to be seen. I'm awaiting E3 to see, and they should explain their full policy on DRM, Used Games, Cloud Computing, and see lots of games being revealed. Looking forward to it.

 

[UberTag]

See, even if they try to prove it with a E3 demonstration, I know it could and will be bullshit, because the environment will be perfectly controlled so it goes exactly as Microsoft wants it to go.

*sigh*

Even the console-side demonstrations of the Xbox One's multitasking and app switching were artificially manufactured. Ditto for the Skype call. And Kinect 2.0 was just tech demos with no gameplay application.

If stuff like that isn't going to be faithfully recreated in a conference 3 weeks prior, there is absolutely NO CHANCE of any Cloud-enhanced gameplay being done in real-time. Actually, I'd give Microsoft credit for merely demonstrating a fabricated application of the Cloud's utilization at this point. Even if it's nothing more than fantasy. Still loads better than just talking about its potential.

 

[nib95]

How about something like a Basketball Game or Boxing game where they can offload the crowd rendering to the cloud & use all of the Xbox GPU/CPU for the action that's being controlled by you?

To be fair, they have 5gb of available ram. Why would they use such a complex method that has such potential reliability issues when they have so much more ram available for such things, as well as the HDD and Blu ray? Honestly seems like a long winded way to find a solution to something that is not a problem. Though theoretically it could be done, it just does not seem sensible or viable. Expensive, unreliable and complex.

They're better off just using it for dedicated servers for bigger online maps, more players etc, less lag. Maybe even for game streaming of older titles similar to Sonys plans for Gaikai?

 

[Man]

I'm surprised Live is not running on top of Azure personally.

Could be they are moving it there with the server upgrade in mind.
Rumors are that iCloud was initially on Azure until Apple got their data center up and running.

 

[TheD]

How about something like a Basketball Game or Boxing game where they can offload the crowd rendering to the cloud & use all of the Xbox GPU/CPU for the action that's being controlled by you?

Because the thing you are rendering on the cloud would be several frames behind what you are rendering locally and look like arse.

 

[mclem]

Clearly we're not seeing the big picture here; what all of this is *really* telling us is that Xbox One will be a triumphant behemoth in the world of turn-based gaming!

Sure, it might suck at *action*, but it'll play a mean game of chess.

 

[M°°nblade]

I have this vision of an Xbox-team's pre-E3 war-room. A dozen unwashed, sweaty, several-weeks-old-beard-sporting dudes furiously typing on laptops as they draft, re-draft, and re-redraft the script of the E3 conference.

Piles of empty pizza boxes. Stench of dry sweat, stale beer, fear and urine.

The white board reads

Don't forget:

'If you're backwards compatible, you're really backwards'