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Messofanego · Mar 2, 2014

This article shows that success and fame, being intangible, doesn't make your internal problems go away. Money can't buy happiness, etc. That there is a thing such as too much attention, even if it's positive.

And how people find it hard to relate to someone not feeling great about the success, as was shown with some of us here in the Flappy Bird thread (dat first page is brutal). I've probably done that towards some millionaire or billionaire's success at some point, too.

Game of the Year - by Davey Wreden

The point of the comic was purely just to clarify that financial and critical success does not simply make your insecurities go away. If you were insecure about other peoples' opinions of you and addicted to praise in order to feel good about yourself, the dirty truth is that there is no amount of praise you can receive that will make that insecurity goes away. What fire dies when you feed it?

But if I go posting on the internet about how awful I felt receiving all these Game of the Year awards, no one is going to take that seriously. "Oh, yeah, we get it, real rough life you've got there. Sounds pretty miserable to be loved for your art. Maybe go cry about it into a pile of money?" And then of course I'm back in the problem I was trying so hard to avoid in the first place, where I'm stressing out about peoples' opinions of me and forgetting simply to feel good about myself. I want to be able to like myself and my work, but it becomes SIGNIFICANTLY harder once people on the internet start asking you to feel ashamed of yourself. It's really really hard to ignore.

So either I share this thing that is simply True, that is a representation of what I actually felt at this time, and risk being shamed for it, or I hide it away and continue to pretend that success means you never feel shitty about anything ever again in your life.

We should be able to accept people's feelings as true and valid to them, not to discount them with unsympathetic remarks. That whatever position they're in, rich or poor, personal feelings don't radically improve with positive recognition. It sounds like he's going through impostor syndrome a bit along with the depression. I hope he gets help and is able to work on his self-esteem by himself eventually. To have support from loved ones. Because they are real.

I admit to chuckling over this, though

Although I don't think I was as crazy as some Naughty Dog fans were over TLOU...

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

i read this yesterday and it's really great, hopefully it can help some people understand that insecurity doesn't just disappear the moment you achieve something big

Ovek · Mar 2, 2014

Yay another whining indy game dev...

OldRoutes · Mar 2, 2014

aeolist said:
i read this yesterday and it's really great, hopefully it can help some people understand that insecurity doesn't just disappear the moment you achieve something big

Ovek said:
Yay another whining indy game dev...

Such a great juxtaposition. Now let's play "who lacks empathy?"!

Haunted · Mar 2, 2014

This is a similar sentiment to what Jonathan Blow has talked about after Braid came out.

Very refreshing to see someone open up like this.

Ovek said:
Yay another whining indy game dev...

Trying to get a mention on @NeoGAFShitPosts?

Alienous · Mar 2, 2014

Wow.

And I thought the game was pretentious

Castle Doctrine · Mar 2, 2014

Okay, but I still don't know what he's insecure about specifically. He's wasting his time with this existential crap, no matter how eloquent he writes about it. Kurt Cobain syndrome.

StuBurns · Mar 2, 2014

Considering it got massive praise and it's an iteration of something he did years previously, I'm not surprised the adulation feels hollow. The artistic work was largely ignored, now it looks pretty and is on Steam, it's treated as something of far greater worth.

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

Castle Doctrine said:
Okay, but I still don't know what he's insecure about specifically. He's wasting his time with this existential crap, no matter how eloquent he writes about it. Kurt Cobain syndrome.

he's insecure about his ability to produce good work, just because you have a bunch of people telling you it's great that doesn't just disappear. external validation isn't a substitute for real self-confidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

Pinko Marx · Mar 2, 2014

Ovek said:
Yay another whining indy game dev...

It's like you missed the entire point.

Tertullian · Mar 2, 2014

Yeah, I still don't feel terribly sympathetic. And I love The Stanley Parable.

Currygan · Mar 2, 2014

these "issues" he's having, I just cannot sympathize with. Also, why would anyone feel to make a comic book about it and post it on the web?

Thomper · Mar 2, 2014

Currygan said:
these "issues" he's having, I just cannot sympathize with. Also, why would anyone feel to make a comic book about it and post it on the web?

Because sharing your experiences and talking about it is always better than having them cropped up inside you? Furthermore, not only does it help him to work through his feelings, it also makes it clear to others feeling the same that they are not alone.

Impostor syndrome is not a made up thing, and there are plenty people who struggle with it. Disappointed with GAF's response so far, and the response is exactly why he *should* share something like this.

RedRooster · Mar 2, 2014

Stupid feelings and emotions always getting in the way. I guess that's why people drink.
Try working 20 years in a dead end government job with NO recognition, see if the lack of acknowledgement treats you better.

Razzer · Mar 2, 2014

Currygan said:
these "issues" he's having, I just cannot sympathize with. Also, why would anyone feel to make a comic book about it and post it on the web?

As he says in the comic, he's trying to give himself a visual representation of his feelings so that he can try to deal with them. I imagine releasing it is about getting this off his chest. Everyone deals with these things in different ways.

mattiewheels · Mar 2, 2014

Currygan said:
these "issues" he's having, I just cannot sympathize with.

Consider yourself very lucky.

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

Tertullian said:
Yeah, I still don't feel terribly sympathetic. And I love The Stanley Parable.

Currygan said:
these "issues" he's having, I just cannot sympathize with. Also, why would anyone feel to make a comic book about it and post it on the web?

i don't understand the need to explicitly post "i am not a sympathetic person"

this guy is saying that he's emotionally suffering and your response is "well you're successful and have money"? great, that doesn't mean a thing

if we as a species could just start giving people the benefit of the doubt when they say they're hurting we'd be a hell of a lot better off

hohoXD123 · Mar 2, 2014

Ovek said:
Yay another whining indy game dev...

Yay another moronic post...

Castle Doctrine · Mar 2, 2014

aeolist said:
he's insecure about his ability to produce good work, just because you have a bunch of people telling you it's great that doesn't just disappear. external validation isn't a substitute for real self-confidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

Thanks. I see. Just a sincere suggestion for him: if he reads your post he should notice how you explained it clearly in two simple sentences. He's wallowing in it, almost romanticizing his misery for the entertainment of others.

BraXzy · Mar 2, 2014

Ovek said:
Yay another whining indy game dev...

Interesting to see this issue from another Dev's point of view. Mike Bithell has kind of touched on the same topic too.

Razzer · Mar 2, 2014

RedRooster said:
Stupid feelings and emotions always getting in the way. I guess that's why people drink.
Try working 20 years in a dead end government job with NO recognition, see if the lack of acknowledgement treats you better.

This is exactly the kind of thing that causes this in the first place. He looks at someone like you and the hard work you put in, and he feels as though he doesn't deserve his success. So he looks for external validation to try and get rid of that feeling. Saying things like this will only make the problem worse.

securitypigeon · Mar 2, 2014

Interesting but why he has to be so flowery about it is beyond me.

MormaPope · Mar 2, 2014

I read through the OP, the drawings as well, and I still don't have that much empathy for these insecurities. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I preferred Phil Fish's venomous ambition over stating simple insecurities. "Every time a new set of awards come out, it's like my ego shotgunned a red bull" almost made me roll my eyes.

Simply being a consumer is definitely a different perspective. Validation is like dust when it comes to consumer validation. Games get shit on and validated on GAF at a exponential rate. Being insecure as a artist is a given, people involved with game design and publishing post on GAF to combat blind invalidation. GOTY awards amount to simple validation, your name and game get presented at the end of the year and you gain a title for that year.

This testimonial ultimately reads like "getting GOTY doesn't solve everything guys, I still have self doubts and insecurity", and my response to that is a frank "no shit". GOTY has never been and never will be a holy grail.

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

Castle Doctrine said:
Thanks. I see. Just a sincere suggestion for him: if he reads your post he should notice how you explained it clearly in two simple sentences. He's wallowing in it, almost romanticizing his misery for the entertainment of others.

he's expressing it in a way that makes sense to him personally and provides more context and nuance and it will probably resonate pretty heavily with people who have the same issues. knowing you're not the only person who feels that way is probably an enormous comfort for them so kudos to davey for putting himself out there.

Coffee Dog · Mar 2, 2014

StuBurns said:
Considering it got massive praise and it's an iteration of something he did years previously, I'm not surprised the adulation feels hollow. The artistic work was largely ignored, now it looks pretty and is on Steam, it's treated as something of far greater worth.

This. It's hard as an artist to come to the realization that nobody really gives a shit about your art until it's mass market friendly.

Silky · Mar 2, 2014

Sounds like the usual struggles of a successful artist. I think maybe he needs a hiatus from any game workings on or something, and approach his next game as something not trying to be superior as Parable.

I didn't care for Parable, but the dude's obviously talented. Hope he gets the support he needs.

DerZuhälter · Mar 2, 2014

A problem of all our "artistic industries", be it music, film, video games and even (but to a minor degree) "classic art" e.g. paintings, sculptures and so on.
The process of the commercialization of art will hurt some of the finer souls out there. Whether it's the media side of coin, of people scoring the way in which someone was trying to express himself (imagine your dad&mom instead of hanging your first painting onto the fridge, laughing about the inconsistancies of the scale of the house and yourself and the questionable unrealistic use of colors, saying it's a D- only saved by a certain crude charme) or the customers who might be "Soulja Boy-ing" the work.

Currygan · Mar 2, 2014

Thomper said:
Because sharing your experiences and talking about it is always better than having them cropped up inside you? Furthermore, not only does it help him to work through his feelings, it also makes it clear to others feeling the same that they are not alone.

Impostor syndrome is not a made up thing, and there are plenty people who struggle with it. Disappointed with GAF's response so far, and the response is exactly why he *should* share something like this.

I find there are better ways to deal with such issues insteada sending messages through the web and making the entire planet know about them. Plus, you also expose yourself to the other side of the coin, ie people attacking you for the same reason, and what good does it do to your situation?

aeolist said:
i don't understand the need to explicitly post "i am not a sympathetic person"

this guy is saying that he's emotionally suffering and your response is "well you're successful and have money"? great, that doesn't mean a thing

if we as a species could just start giving people the benefit of the doubt when they say they're hurting we'd be a hell of a lot better off

I have never said I don't sympathize with him because he's rich and famous, I just don't see how these issues are particularly destructive and suffocating enough to justify such a long exposition. Mine is a literally ignorant opinion and not meant to be disrespectful to the guy, but so are those who say why it's such a good thing he did that etc

Razzer · Mar 2, 2014

Some people here seem to be almost aggressive toward him putting this up. He's allowed to express his feelings people. He likely knows it's flowery bullshit, but it helps him sort out his thoughts. From the wikipedia article posted:

Writing therapy allows the person to organize his or her thoughts through writing. According to this method, once the person is able to see their accomplishments, as opposed to interpreting them internally, they will associate these accomplishments with reality. The text can also be used as a reminder of one's accomplishments at a later time. Workshops aim to dissolve the sense of inadequacy.

Davidion · Mar 2, 2014

Wonder if the impetus to make this was ignited by the whole Flappy Bird incidents at all.

Great little comic, very well addresses any worthless points brought up by the mouth-breathing morons who are too stupid to understand that there's more than some binary good/bad success/failure mental dynamic to achieving any kind of accomplishment.

Alienous · Mar 2, 2014

Razzer said:
Some people here seem to be almost aggressive toward him putting this up. He's allowed to express his feelings people. He likely knows it's flowery bullshit, but it helps him sort out his thoughts. From the wikipedia article posted:

Do people usually upload the results of their writing therapy online?

I can't imagine uploading it and not anticipating harsh responses, when it is already partially self-deprecating.

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

Currygan said:
I find there are better ways to deal with such issues insteada sending messages through the web and making the entire planet know about them. Plus, you also expose yourself to the other side of the coin, ie people attacking you for the same reason, and what good does it do to your situation?

I have never said I don't sympathize with him because he's rich and famous, I just don't see how these issues are particularly destructive and suffocating enough to justify such a long exposition. Mine is a literally ignorant opinion and not meant to be disrespectful to the guy, but so are those who say why it's such a good thing he did that etc

he's an artist, he felt something and made some art to express himself. i don't understand what's weird or confusing about this. all of the music, movies, books, and games that really mean something to you came from an emotion a person or group wanted to express.

scitek · Mar 2, 2014

I literally felt like I was reading the diary of a crazy person.

Silky · Mar 2, 2014

Currygan said:
I find there are better ways to deal with such issues insteada sending messages through the web and making the entire planet know about them. Plus, you also expose yourself to the other side of the coin, ie people attacking you for the same reason, and what good does it do to your situation?

Writing/Creativity is an output for Therapy.

RedRooster · Mar 2, 2014

Razzer said:
This is exactly the kind of thing that causes this in the first place. He looks at someone like you and the hard work you put in, and he feels as though he doesn't deserve his success. So he looks for external validation to try and get rid of that feeling. Saying things like this will only make the problem worse.

To have a good portion of the last four years of his life consumed by development of this passion, he has definitely not just coasted past the rest of us with no effort and I respect his effort. Rather than waiting for the validation to come though, he should be trying to move on and produce more for the world to enjoy, keep trying the achieve. Same with that Flappy guy, sunset the project, let it do whatever it does, and move on to something else. Why worry?
I had that issue once, spent 3 years out of school developing for someone else, told I'm doing a great job but then you hand it over to the client and there's nothing you can do even though you wish you could. Just move on and go again. This whole thing is just a big amusement ride, stop waiting for your carrousel horse to come back around so you can get back on.

SketchTheArtist · Mar 2, 2014

Hate posting this, gonna make me look like I'm on a high horse but, building, creating something that you TRUELY believe in and represent yourself in a way that hundreds, thousands or millions of people will experience is kinda like going in a town square and casually walking around naked. To some it's nothing, but to the majority it takes a lot of courage.

If you're the director of the game and you actually gave a shit about saying something (either in an entertaining or personal way), you're exposing yourself to the world and to some people, that takes guts.

Whenever you see GAF threads of people explaining their personal struggles looking for an ear or just to vent, imagine someone going in those threads and saying ''grow a pair you wuss''. Even though that person's anonymous and still gets to keep his privacy, it might really hurt that person. Making something like a movie, a game, a painting or a song and sharing it with the world that has your signature, and sometimes your face on it is kinda like that. Especially if you're an indie developer. You don't know if it's gonna end up good, will be well-received or just be brushed off to die in one of the dark corners of the net. To me, that takes a shit-ton of courage.

So when I see articles with devs talking about personal matter and people just brushing it off as just a whiny person trying to make us feel bad for all the success they had, it's just so fuckin' mean-spirited. Especially if those people never had the guts to create something or to share something personal with the world around them. Not gonna call those people names because they all have a different story, environment or reasons for them to lash out at other people, that I probably can't understand, but to me, they look sad.

chubbytired · Mar 2, 2014

I'm very confused. What about what he wrote incites such an immediate and callous response from some of you? He is attempting to express how he is feeling and has a rather interesting perspective from which to tell it.

Are comments like "And I thought the game was pretentious" or "Yay another whining indy game dev..." meant to be funny or what? Why bother? I know it's the internet and blah, blah, blah but what about someone else expressing how they feel compels you to immediately strike it down?

Edit: Yes to what Sketch just posted above, just an alternate take on what I am trying to say. It seems so pointlessly cruel to be angry at someone for attempting to describe how they feel.

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

RedRooster said:
To have a good portion of the last four years of his life consumed by development of this passion, he has definitely not just coasted past the rest of us with no effort and I respect his effort. Rather than waiting for the validation to come though, he should be trying to move on and product more for the world to enjoy, keep trying the achieve. Same with that Flappy guy, sunset the project, let it do whatever it does, and move on to something else. Why worry?
I had that issue once, spent 3 years out of school developing for someone else, told I'm doing a great job but then you hand it over to the client and there's nothing you can do even though you wish you could. Just move on and go again. This whole thing is just a big amusement ride, stop waiting for your carrousel horse to come back around so you can get back on.

ignoring the attention (positive and negative) of thousands of people is a difficult thing to do, especially if you're someone like this who craves validation but ultimately finds it to be hollow and unfulfilling

Ran rp · Mar 2, 2014

Some of you guys are so cold.

NotLiquid · Mar 2, 2014

A lot of members here easily misconstrue the feeling of success.

Acknowledgement is great. There's nothing better than knowing that someone out there treats your fruits of labor with high regard. Ask any indie developer out there and they'll tell you how one of the major advantages of doing what they do is how everything put out is a personal investment in a very personal product.

The real problem is that so many of them choose the path to avoid being treated like they are a commodity. These aren't major studios out to sell a million copies. Being a part of a massive collective like a multi-million dollar studio means you don't always share those personal goals with everyone else and that it isn't a burden upheld by you, because it is a vision shared by everyone else working on it. It may be a proud accomplishment on your part but by all means, the level of personal attachment and making that product "your own" is lost among developers fueling hours and endless quantities of manpower. That's the beauty of being an indie, because most of it is yours and you know your own self that it is your vision behind the entire project.

And the eventual downside of getting full creative control over your very own project and hold it up between a small number of people is just that; there's an insane level of pressure you have to handle the more your product is treated like a mass-consumer commodity. While it's great to know that more people out there know of your stuff, the weight of that responsibility is still on a few people who by all means might not be capable or ready to face the immeasurable success. That's one of the bigger struggles you end up having to face.

The feeling of all the acknowledgement in the world isn't necessarily better than no acknowledgement. Money and recognition can't always buy happiness. No matter what end of the spectrum you are, it's still going to be lonely at the top. The biggest hurdle is to never lose yourself to the pressure, and not to lose sight of what you like doing.

Alienous · Mar 2, 2014

chubbytired said:
I'm very confused. What about what he wrote incites such an immediate and callous response from some of you? He is attempting to express how he is feeling and has a rather interesting perspective from which to tell it.

Are comments like "And I thought the game was pretentious" or "Yay another whining indy game dev..." meant to be funny or what? Why bother? I know it's the internet and blah, blah, blah but what about someone else expressing how they feel compels you to immediately strike it down?

Nothing like that.

In a similar way to how he can't find validation in the acceptance of others, I find his comic ironically more pretentious than the game the comic is about, which I also found pretentious. So yeah, funny in an ironic kind of way.

I'm not striking him down by any means. That's just my reaction to how he chose to express himself.

Servbot24 · Mar 2, 2014

I hope his problems happen to me someday.

RedRooster · Mar 2, 2014

aeolist said:
ignoring the attention (positive and negative) of thousands of people is a difficult thing to do, especially if you're someone like this who craves validation but ultimately finds it to be hollow and unfulfilling

I'll admit I just don't get some people's brains I guess, we're all different. I'll bow out of this thread before I start sounding uncaring.

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

Alienous said:
Nothing like that.

In a similar way to how he can't find validation in the acceptance of others, I find his comic ironically more pretentious than the game the comic is about, which I also found pretentious. So yeah, funny in an ironic kind of way.

I'm not striking him down by any means. That's just my reaction to how he chose to express himself.

pre·ten·tious
adjective
1. attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

you are either accusing him of putting everyone on and trying to make it seem like he's really suffering when he's not, or you don't know what "pretentious" means

personally i hope it's the second, because the first means that you're kind of a cruel and cynical person

legacyzero · Mar 2, 2014

Ovek said:
Yay another whining indy game dev...

Tell me you at least read the entire thing...

Alienous · Mar 2, 2014

aeolist said:
pre·ten·tious
adjective
1. attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

you are either accusing him of putting everyone on and trying to make it seem like he's really suffering when he's not, or you don't know what "pretentious" means

personally i hope it's the second, because the first means that you're kind of a cruel and cynical person

I think, perhaps, that he could express himself more succinctly than alcoholism and "sun gift" analogies.

Perhaps ostentatious is a better fit for what I'm trying to say.

Zen_Arcade · Mar 2, 2014

It's a shame that he seems to put so much importance into these GOTY lists. But he also seems to realize that it's a bit silly and that in a few months time that the stress will be past him.

aeolist · Mar 2, 2014

Alienous said:
I think, perhaps, that he could express himself more succinctly than alcoholism and "sun gift" analogies.

Perhaps ostentatious is a better fit for what I'm trying to say.

i think taking him at his word that this is an accurate representation of what is going on in his head would be a good thing. not sure why some people are reacting in a "well that can't be what he's REALLY feeling" way.

SketchTheArtist · Mar 2, 2014

Servbot24 said:
I hope his problems happen to me someday.

Create something with the hope that people will enjoy it.

hohoXD123 · Mar 2, 2014

Servbot24 said:
I hope his problems happen to me someday.

You want a deep feeling of inadequacy which cannot be fixed by external accomplishments?

Support NeoGAF

"Game of the Year" - How Stanley Parable's Davey Wreden struggled with the attention

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at last, for christ's sake

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And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'

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at last, for christ's sake

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