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[Claude Kenni]

It's really sad how many people are bitter about somebody having more success or money to the point where it's felt that such a person isn't allowed to have or vocalize problems or emotions. This guy can at least admit what he's feeling and be brave enough to deal with it, if you think he's supposed to be happy because he has money and accomplishments you clearly don't get it.

Some people here really need to look in the mirror, such a lack of maturity. Taking your anger about yourself out on this guy because he has more success while complaining about him maturely handling emotional problems is quite pathetic and extremely hypocritical.

 

[-COOLIO-]

It's really sad how many people are bitter about somebody having more success or money to the point where it's felt that such a person isn't allowed to have or vocalize problems or emotions. This guy can at least admit what he's feeling and be brave enough to deal with it, if you think he's supposed to be happy because he has money and accomplishments you clearly don't get it.

Some people here really need to look in the mirror, such a lack of maturity. Taking your anger about yourself out on this guy because he has more success while complaining about him maturely handling emotional problems is quite pathetic.

it's the same thing with that star wars actor thread in the ot. it's like, as soon as someone makes good money, then you can call them ugly or whatever. im not saying celebs are reading gaf but shit, they probably use the internet. i don't think it's yacht parties 24/7.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

This isn't a healthy way to deal with discomfort of fame. It comes off as an attempt at seeking more attention in and of itself since the original attention was largely positive. He needs to deal with this better.

Look at Joel Hodgson: guy found fame in the early 80s as a prop comic. Appearances headlining Vegas. SNL spots. Talk shows. The works. Gave it up because he hated the spotlight, the adulation, the ego trips. Same thing happened 10 years later with MST3K, so he quit again to relative obscurity. Huge fame of any kind and him just don't mix.

But no, OP, respectful criticism is a right when used properly, especially when compassion is swung like a club at any dissent from the wielder's opinion. Just as someone far out of our circle doesn't deserve dehumanizing, the opposite of someone getting a face and a name seared into the concious of the reader doesn't make them unquestionable.

 

[Backfoggen]

2014

 

[aeolist]

it's a combination of a capitalist culture that values money over everything and macho bullshit about how you should just nut up and deal with it if you have problems

expressing emotions is a sign of weakness and success should be the solution to everything

 

[dark_prinny]

It's really sad how many people are bitter about somebody having more success or money to the point where it's felt that such a person isn't allowed to have or vocalize problems or emotions.

Who´s saying that? I´m really happy about people who obtain success trough their hard work. And of course he is allowed to vocalize his problems and emotions as I am in my right to have my own vision of them and thinking this kinds of problems are not very likely of being solved by that kind of attitude.

 

[blame space]

This isn't a healthy way to deal with discomfort of fame. It comes off as an attempt at seeking more attention in and of itself since the original attention was largely positive. He needs to deal with this better.

this post is really pissing me off

 

[PaulExcellent]

This isn't a healthy way to deal with discomfort of fame. It comes off as an attempt at seeking more attention in and of itself since the original attention was largely positive. He needs to deal with this better.

I don't think that's what it is at all?
It just seems like he wanted to give his take on how it feels to work on something so hard for all to see, getting recognition, and having to deal with the after-effects of it. It doesn't seem like he's looking for attention at all.

I might be totally wrong, though.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

The notion of their being a proper way to "deal with your emotions" and that an artistic person expressing themselves in an artistic way somehow reflects poorly on that person as pretentious or whiny is absurd. It's astonishing how shallow and short-sighted that view is.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't think that's what it is at all?
It just seems like he wanted to give his take on how it feels to work on something so hard for all to see, getting recognition, and having to deal with the after-effects of it. It doesn't seem like he's looking for attention at all.

I might be totally wrong, though.

I hope he's working this out some other way than this, otherwise I fear he's feeding right back into that problem that he's describing. Is hair of the dog good for what he describes?

 

[MYeager]

Is this common in other forms of media? I don't hear much about indie musicians/directors/producers/writers, but then again, I don't follow those industries.

Yep, you'll see it in varying degrees in different media or art forms. When you spend years crafting something personal and release it to the public there's a bunch of stuff that can go through your head, like was it really ready yet, how it'll be perceived, is it as good as you thought it was, if it wins awards does it really deserve to win over everything else, how do you follow that up now, etc.

Whenever you pour your heart into something and release it for mass consumption the response, positive or negative, can be overwhleming. He certainly seems too appreciate his success, just overwhelmed by the response to it and aware that he's stuck in an unhealthy cycle of seeking outside validation and trying to find a way of expressing that.

 

[Haunted]

Let's just say, I think a couple people won't make it out of this thread once a mod shows up.

 

[Kocolino67]

Reading the comic, it's very sad to see that he cannot enjoy his success he achieved by making something he likes to do. I wish him all the best for his future. He is very creative, hence I hope that he doesn't stop making games in the future - if this is still something he wants to do.

 

[SketchTheArtist]

Seems relevant to some of the posts here....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c

 

[Messofanego]

Annoyingly, I actually think the very nature of game development breeds these insecurities. Nothing like taking on an extremely isolating task for years. One where it is often extremely hard to see how much progress you are making, and for indie developers often with extremely tight budgets to live off of and without any guarantee that it will be worth it in the end.

I could imagine any form of art or creation that you spend years on without knowing whether it's good or not can be pretty intense.

It will be a cold day in imaginary hell before I sympathize with something like this.

How about empathy, which is better? Here's a 3min cartoon to explain:

The Power of Empathy

 

[SJS]

Sorry people, but just because this person has feelings doesn't mean he's immune from criticism. There IS a healthier way of going about these feelings. If you've accomplished something, you need to brag a little and buff your self esteem, not identify it as some self-inflicted oppression. And if the former perception is by some majestic reason unavoidable, you need to create a new and more amenable reality for yourself.

Wreden is a respectable developer, but your coddling of his weaknesses will only worsen his psychological issues by justifying and consecrating a self-hating mindset for him.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Do some of you people really think fame and money makes you instantly happy?

 

[Drensch]

I think it's fair for people to see this a melodramatic and whiny. There are lots of people who have emotional issues, however, many of them don't have the money or fame that this guy received. I think in the game industry alone, there may be people who are toiling away at Assassin's Creed or another giant project, who work a bunch of hours in Q &A or something like that. Resentment of well to do people talking about their woes is normal.

I think it's fair to say you can be somewhat sympathetic to his emotional issues while simultaneously put off by them. There are people who work in coal mines, there are people starving, children dying etc. His missives come off a little "first world problems" when seen in the light of his money and fame.

 

[dark_prinny]

Do some of you people really think fame and money makes you instantly happy?

No.

 

[Alienous]

Seems relevant to some of the posts here....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c

Indeed.

I hope Davey is accepting his happiness.

 

[PaulExcellent]

I hope he's working this out some other way than this, otherwise I fear he's feeding right back into that problem that he's describing. Is hair of the dog good for what he describes?

I'm not sue wht that expression means, but I agree with your first point. While we might all have our different perspective on his attitude, what matters is what he's trying to say.

Do some of you people really think fame and money makes you instantly happy?

Not anymore, no. A very wealthy individual showed me money doesn't buy everything. It seems to fall short a bit.

Edit: That's not to say that money didn't bring him some happiness. Being able to travel every other week to a new country was an amazing experience for him. Money can bring you happiness. Money doesn't mean that it'll make this developer's complaints any less real.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Not anymore, no. A very wealthy individual showed me money doesn't buy everything. It seems to fall short a bit.

correct. It doesn't suddenly make your negative thoughts disappear. It buys you materialistic happiness, not emotional happiness

 

[Scrooged]

I think it's fair for people to see this a melodramatic and whiny. There are lots of people who have emotional issues, however, many of them don't have the money or fame that this guy received. I think in the game industry alone, there may be people who are toiling away at Assassin's Creed or another giant project, who work a bunch of hours in Q &A or something like that. Resentment of well to do people talking about their woes is normal.

I think it's fair to say you can be somewhat sympathetic to his emotional issues while simultaneously put off by them. There are people who work in coal mines, there are people starving, children dying etc. His missives come off a little "first world problems" when seen in the light of his money and fame.

The whole point is him trying to figure out why he feels the way he does because of the fame and recognition. Sure, it's a first world problem just like anything people face in the first world. Taking this down it's logical path, people in poverty in first world countries are still incredibly well off compared to people starving in third world countries. But does that mean we, in the first world, should not share and talk about our issues?

 

[mcw]

This is exactly the kind of thing that causes this in the first place. He looks at someone like you and the hard work you put in, and he feels as though he doesn't deserve his success. So he looks for external validation to try and get rid of that feeling. Saying things like this will only make the problem worse.

I just wanted to say thanks for taking this empathetic approach in your response.

 

[Dali]

Oh, yeah, we get it, real rough life you've got there. Sounds pretty miserable to be loved for your art. Maybe go cry about it into a pile of money?

Or hire a therapist. He can afford it. He's asking consumers for empathy. It's not our job to empathize. Especially not with something that is so foreign to many as huge success, recognition throughout your field and wealth. He's lamenting his good fortune and success and expects us to care? I understand he's got a complex but this is something he needs to discuss with people close to him that actually care about him or a therapist rather than asking a bunch of strangers to put themselves in what they see as pretty comfortable shoes.

 

[Shinta]

"Being given an award for your art is like being given the sun. No matter how you dress it up, it is ultimately intangible, and will kill you."

I made it to that point, and then had to just stop reading.

 

[faceless007]

I'd really love to know what makes some of you so certain that him not releasing this post and comic and instead keeping it entirely private would be more helpful to him than posting it is. Considering he tried that for a few weeks and it didn't seem to help.

 

[hohoXD123]

Versus inadequacy and no external accomplishments? Of course.

Except this isn't a debate about having one or the other.

 

[jacksepticeye]

I think (I hope) that it's not that these people are horrible assholes, but that they're projecting what you might call "the moment of good news." They're imagining how happy they would be to find out that a thing they made was super successful, that they were going to have plenty of money, that they had won GotY or whatever. And then projecting that forward and imagining it goes on forever.


If you read what he wrote, I don't get the feeling that he's even asking for our sympathy. He's asking for our understanding. Is it really that difficult to try to put yourself out of your own head and into his, just for a moment?

*claps*

 

[PaulExcellent]

Oh, yeah, we get it, real rough life you've got there. Sounds pretty miserable to be loved for your art. Maybe go cry about it into a pile of money?

Or hire a therapist. He can afford it.

what am i reading
Is this sarcasm or something?
Like, I actually have no idea if it is.

 

[Alienous]

There've been a few posts of "respectful criticism." There's been a lot more of this:

I think (I hope) that it's not that these people are horrible assholes, but that they're projecting what you might call "the moment of good news." They're imagining how happy they would be to find out that a thing they made was super successful, that they were going to have plenty of money, that they had won GotY or whatever. And then projecting that forward and imagining it goes on forever.

Well, I would guess that Wreden was happy at the moment of finding out these things. He says something about that in his comic. But... life goes on. You don't live in that moment forever. Your happiness level normalizes back to whatever it was before the good news happened. For some people, that means you're still pretty happy. For Wreden, that means, apparently, depression.

If you read what he wrote, I don't get the feeling that he's even asking for our sympathy. He's asking for our understanding. Is it really that difficult to try to put yourself out of your own head and into his, just for a moment?

First, I stand by thinking that the comic comes across as pretentious. Or, as I concluded, more aptly ostentatious.

Second, as I stated earlier, I can't understand how people could be expected to "put themselves in his head" and "understand" when he's clearly struggling with irrational thoughts. In his situation I would not nearly act the same way, so it's difficult to empathize with him. His insecurities, and inability to fully accept his accomplishments as anything other chasing 'validation' are things that really only he could understand and deal with. Sure, I can appreciate his depression, but I can't do anything beyond that, particularly when his depression makes no sense to me.

 

[Shinta]

Is it really that difficult to try to put yourself out of your own head and into his, just for a moment?

I don't think that's the issue. People get it. You're not famous, then the next second you are.

But why do most Oscar acceptance speeches, and professional PR sound the same? Because at the end of the day, you're an incredibly lucky person just for being included in the nomination process, let alone winning. If you start talking about your anxiety in not winning awards again, comparing it to alcoholism, and describing in extreme detail how you can't even find happiness or rest without winning again and again, then it's very easy for people to find that to be a bit of a silly problem.

PR basically tells everyone to be humble, to thank everyone who helped you get to that point, and it turns out it's mostly good advice.

Is this an interesting comic strip that shows what this guy is thinking? Kind of. It's definitely not the standard PR response from a publisher or game dev. But I don't know if it's really an improvement, and I can totally see why people are criticizing it. Ironically, if you put yourself in the position of the critics, it's not hard to see their motivation. They think it's basically the epitome of "first world problems." This guy is basically saying he's addicted to winning awards. That is about as ridiculous as it gets; just in my humble opinion.

I really don't think the guy meant it to come off that way, but honestly, it kinda does ... I mean, he even says getting an award for your art will "ultimately kill you." Come on man. Maybe he should work on the next game, and then every journalist in love with his stuff can say "from the makers of Stanley Parable" and then he'll win another one. Is that killing someone? Ridiculous. Maybe some therapy would actually help the guy. I don't attach a huge stigma to therapy, and the guy is not looking at this right at all. He literally thinks the biggest opportunity he's gotten is going to kill him. At that point, maybe you should talk to someone.

And what message does this send to gaming journalists, that are already very smitten with indie games. Keep giving them awards or they'll be sad? But, if you give them any awards, they'll be sad too? What? The only constant here is that this guy is sad, regardless if he wins or loses.

 

[Pie and Beans]

As passable an experience TSP is, I can't help but feel its an almighty arrogance to even expect it to get many GOTY awards at all. It is, after all, barely an interactive experience at all.

Perhaps if you holed yourself up and simply didnt play anything else of 2013 and... still didn't by this point... you could keep some bizarre idealistic "well why didnt THIS outlet give ME GOTY?!", but beyond that I'm not getting it at all. Malcontent gonna malcontent I guess.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Wreden is a respectable developer, but your coddling of his weaknesses will only worsen his psychological issues by justifying and consecrating a self-hating mindset for him.

It seems unfair to characterize empathy with 'coddling his weakness.' Expressing a mote of understanding has no more or less effect on his ability to deal with his demons than getting viciously judgmental about the man who shares an emotional crisis on the internet. I mean, post what you just posted here to his Twitter, because clearly you know better than him and the rest of us how to be "strong" and do things correctly all the time.

 

[Messofanego]

Sorry people, but just because this person has feelings doesn't mean he's immune from criticism. There IS a healthier way of going about these feelings. If you've accomplished something, you need to brag a little and buff your self esteem, not identify it as some self-inflicted oppression. And if the former perception is by some majestic reason unavoidable, you need to create a new and more amenable reality for yourself.

Wreden is a respectable developer, but your coddling of his weaknesses will only worsen his psychological issues by justifying and consecrating a self-hating mindset for him.

Who's coddling his weaknesses? No one is telling him to continue wallowing in his insecurities, but hope that he gets help for his self-esteem and that some of us know what it's like so we're willing to hear him out. The answers aren't easy for something like this and take time. You gave a good suggestion, just don't know if that method would work out for his self-worth until it's suggested as a course of action by a therapist and he acts on it.

 

[Shinta]

But this... doesn't actually tell us anything. It's essentially saying "he shouldn't have expressed his true feelings because he should've known that people like me would react badly." Well, ok. But that doesn't get us anywhere.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's bad PR, and there's a reason most professionals settle on the same kind of reaction to awards; because it works, and that's the reaction people expect. It's like saying, well "it was a good idea for Tom Cruise to jump on Oprah's couch mere weeks after his PR manager of decades quit. It expressed his feelings." Yeah, but in the public eye, some things you should probably keep to yourself, especially if its bad PR. Putting this out there doesn't do much but open him up to criticism.

I've never been a fan of "first world problems," or its cousin "white whine," either. It's a cheap and obnoxious way of dismissing people's problems. Nobody posting in this thread or on GAF in general has it as bad as a starving kid in a war-torn third-world country. Does that mean they're never allowed to complain about anything?

Never? No.

But I'll draw a line at, "I'm addicted to winning GOTY awards and that makes me sad." If someone told me this was a parody comic strip, it wouldn't surprise me, but I guess it's real ...

This whole comic strip seems like a huge cry for help, which is why multiple people have suggested therapy. Either that, or this guy is just trying to get attention, because he's literally addicted to attention. Therapy might help there too.

 

[spekkeh]

It feels slightly whiny because his anxiety for not being validated is pretty unfounded. But I do kind of see his point, and could see myself experiencing very similar feelings, if I was ever good enough to create a critically acclaimed and widely distributed game.

I guess this is why a lot of artists (actors, writers etc.) purposefully choose to never read what others write about. I would imagine that once Wreden finds the strength to take this approach he would feel a lot happier.

 

[PolarGamer]

Dude expresses how he feels. I don't think he wants your comfort or even understanding. He probably has a need to get out what is going on inside, and does it in an interesting way.

Which is more than can be said about a lot of these posts.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Yay another whining indy game dev...

Care to explain at least why he's whining?

 

[maxcriden]

he's saying that seeing goty lists without papers please makes him think the whole process is bullshit

Lists without Papers, Please come off as bullshit to him? I think?
That's the one line that comes off as strange to me.

Ah, thanks guys. I totally didn't get that at all.

 

[Alienous]

Dude expresses how he feels. I don't think he wants your comfort or even understanding. He probably has a need to get out what is going on inside, and does it in an interesting way.

Which is more than can be said about a lot of these posts.

Well .. sure? I don't think "a lot of those posts" were going for that.

It also has drawings, which is more than can be said about a lot of these posts.

 

[Rickenslacker]

I can understand it and don't fault him for expressing it publicly like this, even if it results in the ire of some onlookers.

But I still can't help but feel jealous, as even with the internal conflict he's still successful and better off than someone like me, who has the insecurities and struggles without that blanket. Hope this was cathartic for him and not something he ends up regretting due to some of the responses.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Anyone who doesn't sympathize or thinks he's whining, when was the last time you created something that more than 30 people have seen and critiqued? Remember how nervous you were when you were called up in school to do your presentation? Now open that up to the whole world, and its not some dumb book report, its one of the most important things you've ever done.

 

[Alienous]

Anyone who doesn't sympathize or thinks he's whining, when was the last time you created something that more than 30 people have seen and critiqued? Remember how nervous you were when you were called up in school to do your presentation? Now open that up to the whole world, and its not some dumb book report, its one of the most important things you've ever done.

I don't see how that analogy works.

If everyone for weeks later told me how good the presentation was I would feel good about it, then eventually it wouldn't matter anymore. That's different to being less than accepting of the praise, and ultimately insecure.

 

[blackMamba1187]

Hopefully it was enough for this guy to get his comic out there. Now he should take a good, long break from the internet, possibly meet with a therapist, and move on to whatever he wants to do next.

Personally, I wish him the best of luck. Depression, in all of its forms, is difficult.

 

[Play-Stay-Tion]

wat

 

[shacklesmcgee]

I don't see how that analogy works.

If everyone for weeks later told me how good the presentation was I would feel good about it, then eventually it wouldn't matter anymore. That's different to being less than accepting of the praise, and ultimately insecure.

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't really work. Trying to find something similar to the insecurities of an artist that everyone would have felt at some point.

 

[RadarScope1]

LOL at "coddling his weakness."

 

[TetraGenesis]

i don't understand the need to explicitly post "i am not a sympathetic person"

this guy is saying that he's emotionally suffering and your response is "well you're successful and have money"? great, that doesn't mean a thing

if we as a species could just start giving people the benefit of the doubt when they say they're hurting we'd be a hell of a lot better off

I really, really like that statement. Really. I might steal that, hope you don't mind.

Edit:

Reading through this thread really hits home how many callous, emotionally inept people there are on any given forum. I feel legitimately sad that empathy is so hard for some people.

 

[Drensch]

Does Beiber get the same kind of sympathy thrown his way? After all he had more money than he can spend, thousands of women throwing themselves at him, and has to deal with paparazzi. He might have doubts as to the validity of his relationships, his creativity etc.