I've been skimming this thread and it really is disappointing how some are reacting to this. I think this video will educate those who are trying to put everything in a box.
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1st Grade Transgendered Student being barred from using Female Bathroom
- Thread starter Trojita
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This gets repeated a lot. And it's not helpful, or justifiable, at all. No one should be asked, nay, forced to *segregate* themselves, and that is basically what you are asking her to do here. Separate but equal is NOT equal.
She wants to use the girl's bathroom because she *is* a girl. Presuming any of the other girls are uncomfortable with her using the girl's bathroom, how would they (or you) take a suggestion that *they* instead be forced to use the nurse's bathroom instead? None of them would agree to that. Why? Because it's unfair and unjust to do that to them, or to Coy, or to anyone else.
Eighty Deuce
Banned
HurricaneJesus
Member
sounds like child abuse. someone said "it isn't like the kid is using the girls change room;showering with other girls". well what do you think is next?
I hold the opinion that kids this young are too young to know. I was very effeminate as a child, but that does not mean my parents should have pushed me to dress like a girl. let the kid be a kid. stop perpetuating differences between genders. it divides people, when in reality, there is no such division.
the issue is very complicated.
I hold the opinion that kids this young are too young to know. I was very effeminate as a child, but that does not mean my parents should have pushed me to dress like a girl. let the kid be a kid. stop perpetuating differences between genders. it divides people, when in reality, there is no such division.
the issue is very complicated.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You say it's complicated but you talk as if you have it figured out based on absolutely nothing.
That makes the most sense to me. The label on the door doesn't define who you are, it's just practical to use the bathroom designed with your genitalia in mind. The fact that they said she could use the individual faculty bathroom sounds like they are trying to be accommodating.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
He's the guy who had a meltdown and was banned in the last Trans-kid thread.
HurricaneJesus
Member
CHEEZMO;48476354 said:
I was kinda hoping a guy from a previous trans bathroom panic thread was gonna make an appearance here. Last thread he said he would have 'respect' for trans women that used the male bathroom, and that all the men there would instantly understand that she was trans and respect her. It was fucking hilarious.
Slippery slope, much? She has a *legal* identity, marked on all of her documentation and paperwork. She *is* a girl. She's entitled to any and all access that other girls her age are entitled. No one is saying that anyone else be allowed to do anything else that they are not *legally* entitled to. The root of the matter is that Colorado state specifically has laws that prevent discrimination against gender identity. This is *against* the law there. And it's asinine to come up with make believe scenarios that aren't even happening right now to take away rights from this little girl.
Your opinion, would be wrong, and not backed by science, or current understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity said:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/917990-overview#aw2aab6b3 said:
This may be a complicated issue for laypeople, but, it's certainly been a very well studied issue by actual medical professionals and scientists or whatnot.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You are not a transgender person, and I am assuming your work does not involve studying and understanding them. Your life experience is irrelevant.
You'll probably find that, in general, if you base your opinions of things that are vastly outside your life experience on your life experience, you will run into problems.
HurricaneJesus
Member
CHEEZMO;48476354 said:
yeah, after i was accused of having aspergers. very tolerant bunch, you are. i do not form opinions lightly. the ones i have, i hold strongly. if you were able to persuade me using science and logic, i could be a great ally for your cause. instead, you attack and alienate me, which only furthers my convictions.
HurricaneJesus
Member
Devolution
Member
Gender dysphoria is a thing. It's not on us to force you to accept it. You can play "the earth is flat cause I say so" all you want, it's not really going to inspire anyone to provide you with resources to the contrary given the standoffish attitude.
faceless007
Member
That you don't have much life experience with transgendered people.
Is that wrong?
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
How many 6 year olds who identify as the opposite gender change their minds though? I can imagine that the rate might be not so low.
SillyEskimo
Member
Given the given situation I think it is an excellent compromise.
You seem to waive all evidence provide away by the simple statement of "My life experiences contradict what you are saying, and your experiences, and the evidence you provide". Please do correct me if I'm wrong in that regard. And, if I am wrong, why doesn't my life experience, or any of the other trans* people in this thread, have any weight with you? Why aren't our experiences any more or less valid as your experiences?
The Librarian
Banned
Cyan is a god, after all.
HurricaneJesus
Member
yes, it is wrong. last night at temple i sat with my trans friend, and they told me about their upcoming show. not that i should have to prove anything to you. I might as well leave the topic, because i have never before tried to have a discussion on an issue and been met with such hostility. no contrasting opinions allowed. got it.
I just don't think a child that young can make such a decision. it is obviously the parents influence at work here. let kids be kids. unfortunately, boys and girls have different body parts. even if i felt that i should have been born a girl, i would still understand why i need to use the boys restroom.
once last thing... why does the kid get dressed up as a super effeminate looking girl? stereotypically girlish clothes reinforce gender stereotypes. my partner has it ingrained in me that identifying things as being for boys or girls is wrong. i agree.
Devolution
Member
You come into the thread declaring this or that based on nothing but your own conjecture then get mad when you're met with hostility. You didn't come in with any genuine intrigue or efforts to understand. Why should anyone give you the benefit of the doubt when you treat them like peons?
Grade school logic right here. "Because you were mean to me, I won't support you anymore!" This shit is stuff I heard from the playground.
If I recall correctly, people did try and help you out with your odd question, but you kept saying what they said wasn't true and instead kept going back to what you defined the term as, at the same time beginning to insult others that were actually trying to help you out. It eventually ended with you having a meltdown off of something that you yourself started.
It's quite clear by your interest in these topics and the side you always jump on in said topics, as well as your ability to dodge and deflect answers given to you if they don't conform with your factually illogical thinking, you have no desire to actually learn more about transgendered people.
Unfortunately, the rate is probably not so low.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9094828/Gender-Identity-Disorder-in-children-an-experts-view.html said:
That said, there is absolutely no reason to deny any particular person a choice to their *current* gender identity and any privilege that goes with it.
If they change their mind when they hit puberty, or when they hit their age of majority... So what? Why does it matter? Why does that change anything with regard to how you treat them here and now? We should respect their choices they make now, even if they are apt to change them later, simply because we don't know if that change will happen, and because it improves their quality of life now. No irreversible changes have happened certainly, and I see no reason why not to allow her the same privileges any other girl her age would have, even if she might change her mind later.
No, it's a poor compromise, and as-it-is, a violation of Colorado's discrimination laws.
SillyEskimo
Member
Well, I think it is a simple and easy solution!
HurricaneJesus
Member
you can stop responding to me now. i never said i won't support you anymore...i never supported you in the first place.
also, no one answered my question. i was told that gender is not what genitals you have. i then asked what gender is, if not your sex. i was then told "it is the gender you identify with". i then said that gender as we know it is then based on stereotypes. i then asked to define gender without using the word gender, and no one could.
please stop responding, because i will not leave challenges unmet.
It's unfortunate that it's so difficult for many people to separate sex from gender. Removing this ignorance is going to be (not that it hasn't been) a long and painful struggle that I look forward to participating in.
But sometimes I just feel that abolishing the concept of gender entirely would be quicker and less painful.
But sometimes I just feel that abolishing the concept of gender entirely would be quicker and less painful.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Do you mean sexuality? Because sex and gender are inexorably linked, you can't have gender dysphoria without a physical gender to be dysphoric about.
I understand your confusion and that you want clarification on what people actually mean when they talk about gender identity. To be honest it's a bit hard to explain.
People have asked me before about this, what frustrates me is that they always seem to think they know better. People tell me that gender is just a cultural construct and I could have just been a feminine guy. Well, I tried that, for about 18 months or so, I really tried. It didn't work. I was miserable and wound up in hospital after a suicide attempt.
I don't think I can explain gender to you in a manner you would deem adequate.
your 1 trans friend has THEIR upcoming show ?
besides the problematic plural, the part show (with your answers in this and the other thread) makes me think that your TRANS FRIEND is a drag queen
Well, can you perhaps expound on why? You've been given a number of reasons why it isn't a good solution, but remain unmoved; maybe you can help us understand your position.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Genderqueer, trans, etc. people sometimes prefer gender neutral pronouns, and they/their/them is common due to there not being a solid singular solution.
One more reason why said friend experience don't fit this thread
HurricaneJesus
Member
i use 'they' and' their' to avoid getting attacked for using 'him' or 'her' in a way that some would see as inappropriate, and detract from what i am actually saying. i don't know what my friend would say. just trying to stay gender neutral.
That's kind of the point though. Eliminating gender roles would (hypothetically) eliminate gender dysphoria.
I mean, I've always seen gender and sexuality as gradients that were independent of each other and from what I've read most modern scientific analyses match my beliefs. Eliminating the binary divisions we have, such as gay/straight or male/female, would do a lot to reduce aversions to the subject.
Of course, it is nonetheless a radical initiative.
Is your friend a drag performer?
You don't even know the pronoum a friend prefers ?
We are talking about the most simple and binary case of transgender girl : the girliest of then all.
Hormones, surgery, probably heterosexual
There is NO question if this girl should use or not the girl bathroom.
Doctors and specialists said that.... even if I think that the biggest specialist on this question is herself, you cis people only believe if a DOCTOR tells it .. so .. a DOCTOR told it
edit :
I'm not sure that it would eliminate gender dysphoria. Gender roles and gender presentation can be distinct from gender. It's how and why there butch women or femme guys out there. Gender presentation, rigid gender norms, and the binary gender expectation are social constructs, and sure they could be dismantled, but that doesn't affect *gender* itself. But I guess I don't really know. It's an interesting (thought?) experiment for sure.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Let's not try to divide Cis people and Trans people when you have Cis people on your side.
Charoncaori
Member
Child abuse? How ridiculous. Did you even watch the video about her? She likes pink and yellow because they're bright and pretty, not because they're girly.
I was a complete tomboy as a girl. Couldn't stand being called cute, hated princesses, loved sports, computers and playing in the dirt. Dressed in pretty neutral clothing, too. But I never once considered myself a boy. And my parents didn't try to push me into being one, either.
The thing is, science is coming to the conclusion that girls' and boys' brains are actually pretty different, and pretending that everyone starts as a blank slate is actually pretty damaging.
A doctor telling myself that I need his opinion so that I know that I am trans is not on my side ... he is in the side that tells me that I am literaly SICK because I need a doctor and literaly CRAZY (transsexuality is listed as a mental disorder, gender variant people are listed as fetishism) because I can't decide for myself.
That cis doctor never needed anyone telling him that he was alowed to have puberty ...
They are not on my side ... they were a barrier that I had to go trough to get what everyone else get for garanted
And I am a tomboy. Do you have ANY idea what is to prove that you are a trans girl when you don't wear makeup or dresses ?
well .. there are LOTS of cis girls who have genital surgery because they don't like the look of their genitals ...and they make plastic genital surgery.
Do you know how many psyquiatrists they need to convince that they need to have this surgery ?
NONE
Devolution
Member
They're also finding that trans people have more and more similarities to the sex they want to identify as.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
And this is an argument because?
It sounds like something that someone would say about segregated facilities in the 50s, having blacks there would make them feel "uncomfortable"
Also its "her continued use"
Brian Griffin
Member
NeoGAF Trans Kid Thread Checklist:
[x] They are only X years old! They can't possibly know!
(Yes they can and do. Many studies and reality have shown it.)
[x] The parents must have put them up to this!
(See previous.)
[x] I wanted to be Batman when I was a kid! This is just a phase!
(No it's not and this is one of the most ignorant and insulting arguments ever)
[x] Penis use men's! Vagina use women's!
(Sooo Buck Angel should piss with the ladies?)
[x] I don't care how much evidence there is! He's still a boy!
(Cool, I hear the Flat Earth Society has been looking for more members.)
[x] It's my opinion that they are not actually transgender!
(Unless you are an expert on the subject your opinion doesn't matter.)
[x] Just make all bathrooms gender neutral!
(Instead of the much easier solution of just letting the kid use the one they want?)
[x] What if a dude claims to be trans so he can go in the women's room to rape people with his hidden penis?!
(This is more offensive than the Batman argument.)
Good times.
I believe the lawyer for the girl's family said that discrimination against trans kids is in fact illegal in the Colorado so regardless of what anyone here thinks, the school dun goofed.
[x] They are only X years old! They can't possibly know!
(Yes they can and do. Many studies and reality have shown it.)
[x] The parents must have put them up to this!
(See previous.)
[x] I wanted to be Batman when I was a kid! This is just a phase!
(No it's not and this is one of the most ignorant and insulting arguments ever)
[x] Penis use men's! Vagina use women's!
(Sooo Buck Angel should piss with the ladies?)
[x] I don't care how much evidence there is! He's still a boy!
(Cool, I hear the Flat Earth Society has been looking for more members.)
[x] It's my opinion that they are not actually transgender!
(Unless you are an expert on the subject your opinion doesn't matter.)
[x] Just make all bathrooms gender neutral!
(Instead of the much easier solution of just letting the kid use the one they want?)
[x] What if a dude claims to be trans so he can go in the women's room to rape people with his hidden penis?!
(This is more offensive than the Batman argument.)
Good times.
Everyone who is confused about trans kids should watch all the clips at this link.
I believe the lawyer for the girl's family said that discrimination against trans kids is in fact illegal in the Colorado so regardless of what anyone here thinks, the school dun goofed.
Yeah I guess I phrased it incorrectly. Eliminating gender would be akin to eliminating personality. What I meant to say (as I tried to clarify in my last post) was eliminating gender roles specifically should, based on my limited understanding, eliminate gender dysphoria. With that said, I think we agree with each other for the most part.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
While I understand why you're enraged, you're really lashing out here. You really need to reread what he wrote and reconsider what he meant.
Eliminating gender roles and puberty would eliminate gender dysphoria
...makes sense... I read it like the doctor as the cis people on the side .. not the people on this thread xD
Sorry Trojita ... Corgis who are trans allys are the best corgis =x
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Apology accepted
I just wanted you to realize there are people that aren't in your situation that support you and others like you. I can't exactly know what you've gone through since I haven't experienced it myself, but I'm sympathetic for the plight you've gone through to be recognized as your true gender.
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