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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)

Harmen

Member
People can observe a silence if they choose to even if other people choose not to.



It may or may not be.

If you chose to observe the silence, why not focus on the reason you are observing the silence rather than shaming other people who chose not to observe (even if they are intentionally being a dick about it).

If you are talking trough a minute of silence where many people are paying respects to this horrific event, you are a dick in my book (and many others I can guarantee you).

Sure, any person can think (or even do what he wants), but going on talking trough the moment others want to spend in silence is just being disrespectful to the people around you. It is one minute.
 
I walked in on a room full of people observing the silence and didn't actually know one was planned or being observed today. I was loudly talking/joking as well. Oops

Edit: Just to be clear, I immediately stopped when I realised what they were doing.
 

King_Moc

Banned
There is no obligation to observe a silence.

There are many reasons why you may choose to observe, or not observe, a silence.

There are many ways to pay your respects which may or may not include participating in a silence.

Even if someone chooses not to observe a silence purely to be a dick - there is no obligation to observe a silence.

Would it be better to cajole this person into silence against their will? Is that respectful to the people whom you are paying respect to by participating in a silence?

Nobodies making the point that he should be forced to do it. They're just expressing surprise that such a prick exists.
 

Mikeside

Member
People can observe a silence if they choose to even if other people choose not to.



It may or may not be.

If you chose to observe the silence, why not focus on the reason you are observing the silence rather than shaming other people who chose not to observe (even if they are intentionally being a dick about it).

I'm not sure why you're being a contrarian about this, but it's pretty clearly a cunt move to ignore a silence to sit for ONE MINUTE and think about young lives lost for no good reason.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
According to an article in The Atlantic the other day, there is enough resource for full time surveillance of 500 people.

I do not think the security services deserve much criticism. If you look at the number of terror fatalities in the U.K. since 7/7, we do extremely well compared to other countries considering we are a major target.

It's not about criticising the law enforcement, it's about acknowledging that obvious red flags were ignored and what can be done in the future to filter the threats better. Known radical coming back from a country like Libya shouldn't go under radar. It's a pretty obvious situation that needs to be addressed.

The fact that other attacks were prevented didn't mean that things can't be improved.

And secret services can be criticised as long as there is free speech and there is a reasonable doubt about the way they acted in some instances.

For example there isn't much they could have done in the Westminster attack, but this one could have been prevented, maybe.
 

Beefy

Member
@AP
BREAKING: Libyan anti-terror official says alleged Manchester bomber phoned mother hours before concert attack, said "forgive me"
 

King_Moc

Banned
@AP
BREAKING: Libyan anti-terror official says alleged Manchester bomber phoned mother hours before concert attack, said "forgive me"

So he knew what he was doing was wrong? Or just that he knew his mother would think that? I don't get it...
 

jelly

Member
Ah, nothing to see there then, they do sometimes fall into the pit of viewing the other side when it's flat earth believers, silly reporting. BBC do it sometimes too. It's not informative.
 
Some cuntflap near me (just outside blackburn) shouted BOMB on a train today, que 5 police units and an evacuated train

What the fuck is wrong with some people?
 
Some cuntflap near me (just outside blackburn) shouted BOMB on a train today, que 5 police units and an evacuated train

What the fuck is wrong with some people?

Wow, I can't even imagine what would happen in that situation on the NYC subway.

I hope he gets jail time for that. Seriously fucked up.
 
So he knew what he was doing was wrong? Or just that he knew his mother would think that? I don't get it...

That sort of thing has happened before...it's like they know they are about to commit a heinous and unforgivable, barbaric crime...and that it'll bring shame on the family etc but..do it anyway. I suppose it's part of the whole indoctrination
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
ITT: too many people trying hard to be logical, neutral and "technically" correct, and coming off as assholes. Good job.
 

pulsemyne

Member
Some cuntflap near me (just outside blackburn) shouted BOMB on a train today, que 5 police units and an evacuated train

What the fuck is wrong with some people?

Same thing happened in swansea city centre yesterday when some floppy haired idiot started shouting he had a bomb. Shopping centre had to be evacuated and they dragged the prat away.
 

Chococat

Member
I'm not sure why you're being a contrarian about this, but it's pretty clearly a cunt move to ignore a silence to sit for ONE MINUTE and think about young lives lost for no good reason.

While I would whole heartily engage in a minute of silence for the victims of this attack, I can't agree with shaming those who do not for whatever reason.

It the same sort of society peer pressure that people use on those not of the same belief system.faith.

It like those who don't stand for the Pledge, or a national Anthem.
Or those of a different faith/no faith no joining in when another religion prays.

People don't know the reason why someone does what they do. Yes he could be a jerk. Or he could be in shock and is in a stage of denial. Or he could have something like Asperger. Or he could be a high function sociopath who does good, but is terrible a emotion interaction. Or the sort of group silence could go against his own religious belief. Or they are a Stiff-upper-lip sort plows through life believing in reserving emotions in public.

People need to stop judging people for not grieving the way you do. It doesn't make one a better person for observing the silence. The silence is a way for the some of living to grieve and remember fallen. It should not be twisted into another point to divide people.
 
It was far too early for a minute's silence, should have had one next week after people had time to digest what had happened and we had a better idea of how many people died.
 
People need to stop judging people for not grieving the way you do. It doesn't make one a better person for observing the silence. The silence is a way for the some of living to grieve and remember fallen. It should not be twisted into another point to divide people.


This has nothing to do with how people grieve. Its purely a lack of respect and common decency.
 

Budi

Member
While I would whole heartily engage in a minute of silence for the victims of this attack, I can't agree with shaming those who do not for whatever reason.

I mean from what I understand that this was someone causing disturbance by talking while others were having a moment of silence. That person didn't let others grieve in their way properly. You mentioned faith, if people were having a prayer and somebody would be disturbing them during that, they wouldn't be dicks to you and shouldn't be called out for it?

It would be all fine with me if that person didn't participate in it, but if they are in the same premises and this is going on then show the people having the moment respect atleast.
 
So apparently the bomber was a known quantity to UK intelligence and they still didn't do anything about him? This is a frustrating trend with terrorists slipping through the net, if I recall it's the case with the last few major terrorist attacks in recent years as well, including the Boston bombers.

Meanwhile the FBI/CIA is engineering false terrorist plots to lure in a few dumbasses who aren't actually a threat and patting themselves on the back for wasting valuable time and money. Good grief.
 

H1PSTER

Member
So apparently the bomber was a known quantity to UK intelligence and they still didn't do anything about him? This is a frustrating trend with terrorists slipping through the net, if I recall it's the case with the last few major terrorist attacks in recent years as well, including the Boston bombers.

Meanwhile the FBI/CIA is engineering false terrorist plots to lure in a few dumbasses who aren't actually a threat and patting themselves on the back for wasting valuable time and money. Good grief.

Explain what they can do, he wasn't a criminal before the attack.
 

milanbaros

Member?
So apparently the bomber was a known quantity to UK intelligence and they still didn't do anything about him? This is a frustrating trend with terrorists slipping through the net, if I recall it's the case with the last few major terrorist attacks in recent years as well, including the Boston bombers.

Meanwhile the FBI/CIA is engineering false terrorist plots to lure in a few dumbasses who aren't actually a threat and patting themselves on the back for wasting valuable time and money. Good grief.

Suspected doesn't mean guilty.
 
So apparently the bomber was a known quantity to UK intelligence and they still didn't do anything about him? This is a frustrating trend with terrorists slipping through the net, if I recall it's the case with the last few major terrorist attacks in recent years as well, including the Boston bombers.

Meanwhile the FBI/CIA is engineering false terrorist plots to lure in a few dumbasses who aren't actually a threat and patting themselves on the back for wasting valuable time and money. Good grief.

Because they can't always do much without invading their privacy and they can't get a warrant/court order etc unless they know he is guilty/planning something.
 

Joe

Member
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hester/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In the past 5 years, the alleged bomber was reported to terrorism-related authorities by:

  • a local Manchester Muslim organization
  • his friends (twice)
  • his mosque (they also banned him)
  • his own family
Yet no one ever head anything back.

And:
Abedi was able to travel frequently between the UK and Libya, where it is feared he trained in bombmaking and possibly travelled to Syria.

Hopefully that's enough to silence people who say the Muslim community needs to do more.
 
Explain what they can do, he wasn't a criminal before the attack.
It's not like the options are either arrest him or do nothing at all. If you have so many people coming forward saying they're concerned that someone is veering towards extremism, then offering them some form of expert guidance on how to deal with their concerns might help.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hester/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In the past 5 years, the alleged bomber was reported to terrorism-related authorities by:

  • a local Manchester Muslim organization
  • his friends (twice)
  • his mosque (they also banned him)
  • his own family
Yet no one ever head anything back.

And:


Hopefully that's enough to silence people who say the Muslim community needs to do more.
The real issue here is that Muslims aren't doing enough!

I do need to save this list whenever that baseless, dumb line gets parroted though.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Because they can't always do much without invading their privacy and they can't get a warrant/court order etc unless they know he is guilty/planning something.

If the law enforcement agencies are not able to get a surveillance warrant against somebody who was repeatedly reported to be radicalised by people close to him maybe they don't really make a good use of the public funding they are using.
 
So apparently the bomber was a known quantity to UK intelligence and they still didn't do anything about him? This is a frustrating trend with terrorists slipping through the net, if I recall it's the case with the last few major terrorist attacks in recent years as well, including the Boston bombers.

Meanwhile the FBI/CIA is engineering false terrorist plots to lure in a few dumbasses who aren't actually a threat and patting themselves on the back for wasting valuable time and money. Good grief.

Teressa May has cut police numbers by 20,000 they just dont have the resources to watch everyone on the watch list properly
 

Audioboxer

Member
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hester/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In the past 5 years, the alleged bomber was reported to terrorism-related authorities by:

  • a local Manchester Muslim organization
  • his friends (twice)
  • his mosque (they also banned him)
  • his own family
Yet no one ever head anything back.

And:


Hopefully that's enough to silence people who say the Muslim community needs to do more.

I drew comparisons to Rotherham for a reason, the bulk of the blame lies on the authorities. Where the people do not help is some of the knee-jerk calls of racism and abuse if the police do actually investigate something. Which then has them under investigation for non-action and stating fear of being called -isms played a factor in making them skittish to be seen going after the Islamic communities. It's a fucking mess, because after this if an investigation is carried out (which it should be) and all of the above is independently confirmed I'll bet the excuses/reasoning echoes Rotherham.

Although putting "his own family" above seems sketchy as they all seem pretty mental themselves. At least the brother and the father. Reports from the mosque and community are more likely here, the family are probably doing some sorts of damage control especially given the so-called reports on his brother/father (brother was arrested as well).

The communities themselves don't often deserve blame for not reporting, the issues with some of them are what it has been since the early 2000's. Not integrating and creating "ghettos" of their own. That's still a social issue, and at times it does become easier for radicals to hide amongst "closed off" communities. With the little mixture of diversity and different cultures/eyes all contributing to a community, it'll become less efficient for radicals to be reported. Not to mention it's just not good for a country to have communities segregated from others. It creates animosity, hostility and the perception that the communities and people just aren't compatible with each other. Let us not ignore a lot of radicalisation revolves around fostering anti-Western hate/hate of any other communities or groups outside of your "own". Sharia Law will never be a thing either, so even the police can have a hard time of trying to interact and work with communities that will probably see them as "Western police". Hence why utter failings of integration aid in fostering breakdowns within a country.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hester/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In the past 5 years, the alleged bomber was reported to terrorism-related authorities by:

  • a local Manchester Muslim organization
  • his friends (twice)
  • his mosque (they also banned him)
  • his own family
Yet no one ever head anything back.

And:


Hopefully that's enough to silence people who say the Muslim community needs to do more.

Yeah, good luck with that...

https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/868030747562606592

Yes, it's a link to a wretched cunts twitter, but these cunts are usually the ones to post videos like this...

No-one will hear about all the things the Muslim community tried to do, it'll just come back to 'ghettos', they don't integrate, they won't take on 'British culture' (whatever the fuck that is) and the usual bullshit you tend to hear from people when they want to blame an entire community for the actions of a few.
 

Razmos

Member
I've lived in the UK my entire life and still don't understand the "British Culture" that so many racists are trying to protect.

The Britain I know is multicultural and stronger because of it.
 

Tovarisc

Member
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hester/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In the past 5 years, the alleged bomber was reported to terrorism-related authorities by:

  • a local Manchester Muslim organization
  • his friends (twice)
  • his mosque (they also banned him)
  • his own family
Yet no one ever head anything back.

Resources question at the end. Someone somewhere evaluated report and person reported and didn't find it to rise level of questioning / surveillance etc. Just my takeaway after ex-IC operatives told on CNN and NBC how they are constantly resource strained because there is so much more to track down than they have resources to so they have to make tough calls about what pursue.

In this case IC made bad call and it cost lives.

P.S. 20 to 30 people just to have full surveillance coverage on one (1) POI around the clock.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Yeah, good luck with that...

https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/868030747562606592

Yes, it's a link to a wretched cunts twitter, but these cunts are usually the ones to post videos like this...

No-one will hear about all the things the Muslim community tried to do, it'll just come back to 'ghettos', they don't integrate, they won't take on 'British culture' (whatever the fuck that is) and the usual bullshit you tend to hear from people when they want to blame an entire community for the actions of a few.

There is truth in that in some areas of the country and the one thing some of us do not do to help ourselves and the country is a knee-jerk reaction to cunt flaps like Hopkins to run away ignoring any difficult truths. You do not need to blanket blame communities, but you do need to honestly look at areas in the country where there truly isn't any integration or very little. Why are all of these arrests continually being carried out in very isolated communities? Why do the police and authorities act scared to go into some of these communities and actually do something with reports/evidence? We have legitimate scandals that have gone on in the UK due to non-action from the councils and authorities. This could be another if an independent investigation can backup those statements above on the telegraph site. There should be hard looks at what the hell is going on if intelligence not being acted upon can lead to mass loss of life.

It's not healthy when brains are simply shut off completely because of the fear of "racism/abuse" allegations when it's not true. You can't, on one hand, scream at the authorities and council for not investigating reports/behaviour as them saying they're scared to offend/be racist is nonsense, and then on the other hand name call anyone who talks about integration issues because a knob head like Hopkins (incorrectly) uses truth to extrapolate nonsense/unfair blaming/genuine racism.

Why would your brain read things like this and then say I better ignore it because someone might call me racist?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/10/uk-muslim-ghettoes-warning/

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...verty-and-exclusion-in-birmingham-in-pictures

Do you not think it's far better to accept reality and then we can have honest conversations about what we can try to do as a country? Hopkins has anything but an honest conversation, but then again, anyone sticking their head in the sand and ignoring everything isn't either. Some isolation is born from poverty and a lack of council care, but some of it is born from communities not wanting to allow others in. What do we do? Well besides trying to educate and encourage communities, the very first thing we have to do is somehow enable our authorities and intelligence services not to act scared, not to cower away, not to ignore reports and to respond appropriately to 99.9% of cases. They may have to go into strict Islamic communities and may have to deal with "optics" that they are targeting. I mean, they are targeting, if they have credible information that is the whole point in finding a target and going after it. All it takes is one person, who they know of, to be "ignored" long enough and you have over 20 dead, and many injured. That is, if we can have an investigation and prove this man should have been prevented from ever getting to where he has. Early reports suggest yes, we have failed to stop someone we should have. Time to have difficult, challenging and honest conversations about why that might be the case. Unfortunately, it seems to be becoming a reoccurring trend (he was known to the authorities... followed up with people reported him, he travelled abroad, he was on an active watchlist and finally multiple arrests now happen hours within the attack occurring). Intelligence service work isn't easy, but we cannot keep being retroactive to these atrocities. Something has to change.

edit: More arrests today, Police make tenth arrest ~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40056102 It may be "lone-wolf" attacks at times, but it's clear there are networks in the UK spanning various communities. Most of the arrests, however, continue to be in heavily isolated communities with very little integration. As I said at times this can foster some serious resentment to the country you are supposedly part of, if the community around you is operating like it's completely cut off and outside of the country. Which can then fuel that nonsensical labelling of the police as racist if they go into communities they aren't part of and pull people out. All of these little pieces of the jigsaw add up, racists like Hopkins only take some pieces and then amplify them with hateful rhetoric which is never going to help a country move forward. Not to mention she aims to make it out ALL Islamic communities are like this, in order to fuel the narrative of blanket blaming everyone. That is not the case, and I hope it's more than 100% clear I am only addressing those that fit the descriptors above. Talking honestly doesn't mean you have to talk hatefully, or exaggerate. Honesty is just a key part of the cycle of enquiry needed to ask the right questions and try and find the right answers.

Edit2: Just read Hopkins has been let go by LBC. Adios fuck nugget!
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hester/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In the past 5 years, the alleged bomber was reported to terrorism-related authorities by:

  • a local Manchester Muslim organization
  • his friends (twice)
  • his mosque (they also banned him)
  • his own family
Yet no one ever head anything back.

And:


Hopefully that's enough to silence people who say the Muslim community needs to do more.

Damn. Huge black eye for law enforcement here. Hopefully this gets more attention.
 

Audioboxer

Member
^^ Good post Audioboxer. Also the fact that police wouldn't investigate the Asian grooming gangs partially out of fear of being accused of racism is just sickening. Children were being raped, who cares if there are a lot of idiots out there ignorantly throwing around that term whenever they can.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ophile-gang-for-fear-of-appearing-racist.html

By all means, police agencies always need to be monitored, regulated and have an enquiry process to look into them for abuses. Unfortunately, members in the forces can abuse, have abused and will continue to abuse power.

However, we cannot live in a society where credible evidence/intelligence gets ignored. There just isn't room for a lack of action leading to abuses/death. As above, we cannot have people's rights being abused, but too often we're seeing situations where there were multiple levels of intelligence/reports and STILL no action was taken (or no action until AFTER serious crime(s)).

An independent enquiry will have to look into these allegations above. I know there is a lot of arrests being made now, but again, this is retroactive to an incident which cost many lives. We have to find out why this man wasn't in a far more serious position than he was for the supposed reports given to the authorities and his travelling to and from the country. It's no use having intelligence services that the radicals think won't bother them and won't act until after their "dirty work" is done.

Police have made "significant arrests and finds" in their inquiry into the Manchester Arena bombing, according to the UK's top counter-terrorism officer.

Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said they had "got hold of a large part" of the terror network they believe bomber Salman Abedi was part of.

"Immense" progress has been made, he added, but more arrests were likely.

A total of 66 people remain in hospital, with 23 in critical care.

23 still in critical care :(

Security minister Ben Wallace told the BBC there were between 400 and 500 active investigations into people plotting or engaged with plots to attack the UK, covering 3,000 individuals.

There were also between 12,000 and 18,000 people in the same category as Abedi - those who had come to the attention of the security services.

"The scale of the challenge we face is the key," said Mr Wallace.

"When is someone boasting or when is someone acting suspiciously? The police and the security services always have to make that judgement call and that is a lot of people.

"We used to say that a terrorist only has to be lucky once. We have to be lucky all the time."

An insight into how serious this is, but also why reports cannot be ignored

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40056102
 
police out in force today. saw a convoy of huge landrovers that said force scotland on them Must have got extra bodies from different parts of the country.
 
I've lived in the UK my entire life and still don't understand the "British Culture" that so many racists are trying to protect.

The Britain I know is multicultural and stronger because of it.

You're probably part of the problem if you live in UK and have no idea of the culture.

How the hell do you live in a country your entire life ignorant of its culture unless you're in a self segregated community or a total shut in.

Do you even queue?
 

Breads

Banned
There is no obligation to observe a silence.

There are many reasons why you may choose to observe, or not observe, a silence.

There are many ways to pay your respects which may or may not include participating in a silence.

Even if someone chooses not to observe a silence purely to be a dick - there is no obligation to observe a silence.

Would it be better to cajole this person into silence against their will? Is that respectful to the people whom you are paying respect to by participating in a silence?

The fuck you on about. There is no freedom of the consequences or criticism of the choices you make.
 

Ensirius

Member
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