Queing, fish and chips, chavs? You consider those culture?
I'm not part of any problem thanks very much. I just don't see any culture worth protecting so much that it turns you into a seething racist and an asshole.
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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)
- Thread starter E-phonk
- Start date
I'm not part of any problem thanks very much. I just don't see any culture worth protecting so much that it turns you into a seething racist and an asshole.
King Gilga
Member
GoldenEye 007
Member
Audioboxer
Member
In the aftermath, for sure. In the space of days arrests into double figures and we have now seen the threat level lower. However, I posted some stats on the last page off the BBC
Given the alarm bells screeching at full volume around this terrorist and everything supposedly reported/known about him (and the network), we have to start throwing hard questions at the authorities as to why it's taken for over 20 people to be killed for action to be taken. Even with all the musings made in this thread about protecting everyone's rights and privacy, there have been points where the authorities have to either have been stretched too thin/ignoring information/not acting out of fear or something else.
Those numbers above are legit worrying. Are we sitting on another Abedi who just needs some more weeks/months to mobilise and/or jump abroad for a bit to then come back? Is anyone really confident this is the last homegrown terrorist attack we're going to see in the UK for the longterm future?
The Hamburglar
Banned
whats this garbage i'm reading?
Do scottish people not have any culture, i'm sure you wouldn't say that about scots so by british I presume you mean english.
Racists may say they are trying to protect british/english culture, but the only people who say what you said are usually morons on the far left or non native brits being racists towards brits.
Fox news has mentioned he was reported to authorities repeatedly but they make sure to leave out who did so.
show me your skeleton
Member
British isn't a race.
plagiarize
Banned
If you have to presume he meant English to make what he said 'garbage' maybe don't presume he meant English.
Manchester's culture is multicultural. Whatever it may have been in the past that is the culture it has had for decades. From the Curry Mile to Chinatown to Canal Street, if you think Manchester isn't a vibrantly multicultural city and that it's 'British' or 'English' culture needs protecting from anyone, then you don't remotely understand the city of Manchester.
And if anyone thinks other places becoming more like Manchester is somehow losing identity or culture, then they should take another look at Manchester.
You're either a moron on the far left or a non native brit being racists towards brits.(sic)
I can't tell what's going on in this thread anymore
plagiarize
Banned
Probably.
The Hamburglar
Banned
ermm I never said once britain or manchester for that matter isn't a multicultural city. The poster I quoted flat out said there is no such thing as british culture.
I find it bizarre that the poster thinks there is no such thing as british culture. I or the poster I quoted never even mentioned manchester.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Okay, British culture exists. Tell me some things about it?
It's fine to argue it exists, but just saying it exists without detailing aspects of it is pointless.
It's fine to argue it exists, but just saying it exists without detailing aspects of it is pointless.
SimpleGamer
Member
Hell no and I'm pretty sure they won't mention it.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Fox News? Are you kidding?
"The Britain I know is multicultural" was what they said. Hence why there isn't a 'British culture' per se. Or more specifically, they have trouble identifying it or understanding what the culture is that racist people who make a claim to protect 'British values' is.
There wasn't a mention that there was no such thing as British culture. In any case, this is a stupid discussion to be having. Don't get so mad over it. Also, they way you bring in the far-left is super weird.
I don't know about culture per say, but we can assess British attitudes... somewhat.
Traditionally, we liked tea. We prefer Coffee now.
We like pubs. Pub culture is dying.
The best selling newspapers are The Sun, and the Daily Mail - two of the most hated newspapers in the country.
Gay Marriage is legal now. Legal marriage is on the wane.
About half the Scots want to remain part of the UK. the other half don't.
About half the UK voted to leave the EU. The other half didn't.
Over 80 per cent say it matters that the food they buy is healthy. Obesity is at its highest levels.
Half the people in managerial positions consider themselves working class. Yeah.
Scottish culture is different to English culture which is different to Northern Irish culture.
Of course British culture is different to the UK, as the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
I've always seen Britain as a land with pockets of culture.
The cheese rolling and oil barrel runs of the south west with their scrumpy cider, the spray on tans and high street clubs of Essex, the embrace of multiculturalism and business in London, the Scottish have their own quite proud culture and traditions (again, quite different from Aberdeen to Glasgow to the Highlands), the south coast has its own left wing boutique student thing going on, Yorkshire too, Carlisle, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester.
They're all very different places with very different cultures.
Multiculturalism with immigrant cultures is a big part of that but even just local history and custom are different enough to be their own thing.
Protecting British culture is a ridiculous thing because it's long proved to be able to defend itself and accept outside influences and additions from immigrant populations.
The cheese rolling and oil barrel runs of the south west with their scrumpy cider, the spray on tans and high street clubs of Essex, the embrace of multiculturalism and business in London, the Scottish have their own quite proud culture and traditions (again, quite different from Aberdeen to Glasgow to the Highlands), the south coast has its own left wing boutique student thing going on, Yorkshire too, Carlisle, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester.
They're all very different places with very different cultures.
Multiculturalism with immigrant cultures is a big part of that but even just local history and custom are different enough to be their own thing.
Protecting British culture is a ridiculous thing because it's long proved to be able to defend itself and accept outside influences and additions from immigrant populations.
Yup. People who claim there is no such thing as British culture aren't very well travelled.
Culture encompasses so much. It is what makes the skyline of a city, town, or village distinguishable; a film, book, piece of architecture, fashion, meal, beverage, or work of art distinguishable; it builds upon the characteristics and achievements of those who came before and swings the opinion of those who are raised in that culture.
It's the big things and the little things. It's the physical or visual things and the unspoken things. It's the subtleties in discussion and debate. It's mannerisms. Humour. Humor. Linguistics. Gestures! The difference between a striked and unstriked 7. Traffic first or pedestrians first. Fork or fingers. It is every little detail in life.
Cultures are so distinct from each other that it is impossible to narrow them down with anything less than an encyclopedia.
Yet at the same time, a culture can be respectful and understanding of other cultures. British culture - and especially Manchester culture - embraces other cultures. It takes from those cultures and adds to its own. Those who live there are generally mindful and curious.
As a Brit living overseas (10 years in), I am swamped by these little details that make up British culture whenever I return to the UK. For those saying there is no such thing as British culture or laughing it off with "fish and chips and queuing", I highly recommend getting outside of the UK for a year or two.
British culture is full of absurdities. It's a christian country made up mostly of non-religious folk. But most people most places kinda sorta celebrate something christmasy at the end of the year.
And if you want to talk about values... British values... hanging has been illegal 50+ years, Bringing it back is still very popular. Just shy of 50% of people support it in recent times. But that's better than the 75% that supported it in the 80s...
So the legal system objects to the British values system and has long waited for most Britons to catch up with it.
Aye. Home is home after all.
And if you want to talk about values... British values... hanging has been illegal 50+ years, Bringing it back is still very popular. Just shy of 50% of people support it in recent times. But that's better than the 75% that supported it in the 80s...
So the legal system objects to the British values system and has long waited for most Britons to catch up with it.
Aye. Home is home after all.
TsunamiOfSwagger
Member
Panicked a bit before. I was in the Moss Side area of Manchester at about 13.45 and heard an explosion of some kind.
No idea what it was, but it's being reported on the evening news website.
Edit- link to website.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/live-explosion-heard-armed-police-13104838
No idea what it was, but it's being reported on the evening news website.
Edit- link to website.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/live-explosion-heard-armed-police-13104838
Seems like it happened when they stormed a house. Apparently the person has been arrested?
TsunamiOfSwagger
Member
No idea, but it was loud, so I must have been close. Then we heard loads of sirens and there was a police helicopter in the air.
plagiarize
Banned
I'm also a brit living overseas (in the US). Given the wide tapestry of culture in Britain and here in the states, I'm not sure I could tell anyone what *British* culture is.
Northern culture. Scottish culture. Welsh... London... Manchester... I mean, those I can isolate. But British? I mean as an umbrella term that encompasses all of the above... okay. But as a single notion that needs protecting like your BNP or EDL types might say... as something that someone could make a sound argument that we're 'losing'?
Then I have no idea or concept of what that could even possibly be.
You drive twenty minutes and they call a bread roll something completely different.
DasPenguin
Member
Let's put it this way: it will never get as bad as American gun violence and mass shootings.
Yeah, I don't think British culture is something the government should legislate to 'protect', especially if the suggestion is that 'protecting British culture' means deporting immigrants or other racist nonsense like that, but I think it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that there's no such thing as British culture.
I do recognise what the poster above says about breaking it down into Northern culture, West Country culture, Scottish culture, etc, but I think you could make that argument for any culture or nation.
Rural Anatolian culture is very different to that in liberal coastal cities like Izmir, but you can still say that there is such a thing as Turkish culture. Provencal culture is pretty different to culture in northern France, but again, I think there is an overarching sense of Frenchness.
Every country is full of contradictions and parts that can't easily be reconciled. And the nature of the United Kingdom also makes it pretty hard to disentangle Scottish, Welsh, etc culture. And if you insist that sub-UK phenomena can't be counted as British culture then I guess that makes it more complicated as well. eg. Can we count fish and chips as British culture or must we call it English? Is the love for the NHS a British trait or not (after all there is no NHS in NI)...?
For me British culture and life encompasses everything from curry and chips, to Doctor Who, sprinter trains rattling past five-a-side games on the local playing fields, the pips on Radio 4, a kebab on a rainy Friday night, Coronation Street, the Christmas copy of the Radio Times, an English breakfast in a greasy spoon, old counties with quaint names like Lancashire and Perthshire, red-brick terraces, ruined castles, Yorkshire Tea, cheddar cheese, the dulcet tones of David Attenborough, silently fuming over the prat on the phone in the quiet carriage, and moaning about the bank holiday rain...
And for you it will be different - it'll be things I've probably never noticed, but which are imperceptibly part of British life.
We're a multicultural nation, but immigrants expand and add to this tapestry, it's not as if they somehow delete it.
I do recognise what the poster above says about breaking it down into Northern culture, West Country culture, Scottish culture, etc, but I think you could make that argument for any culture or nation.
Rural Anatolian culture is very different to that in liberal coastal cities like Izmir, but you can still say that there is such a thing as Turkish culture. Provencal culture is pretty different to culture in northern France, but again, I think there is an overarching sense of Frenchness.
Every country is full of contradictions and parts that can't easily be reconciled. And the nature of the United Kingdom also makes it pretty hard to disentangle Scottish, Welsh, etc culture. And if you insist that sub-UK phenomena can't be counted as British culture then I guess that makes it more complicated as well. eg. Can we count fish and chips as British culture or must we call it English? Is the love for the NHS a British trait or not (after all there is no NHS in NI)...?
For me British culture and life encompasses everything from curry and chips, to Doctor Who, sprinter trains rattling past five-a-side games on the local playing fields, the pips on Radio 4, a kebab on a rainy Friday night, Coronation Street, the Christmas copy of the Radio Times, an English breakfast in a greasy spoon, old counties with quaint names like Lancashire and Perthshire, red-brick terraces, ruined castles, Yorkshire Tea, cheddar cheese, the dulcet tones of David Attenborough, silently fuming over the prat on the phone in the quiet carriage, and moaning about the bank holiday rain...
And for you it will be different - it'll be things I've probably never noticed, but which are imperceptibly part of British life.
We're a multicultural nation, but immigrants expand and add to this tapestry, it's not as if they somehow delete it.
plagiarize
Banned
And that I can firmly agree with.
Miles Quaritch
Member
It's fine to say all of the above, but if you can't talk about what a culture is in depth and explain it to someone who might not know what is it, does it really exist?
People like the idea of British Culture, but they can never seem to actually articulate what it is. We've been here for close to a decade. People screaming British Culture is eroding, ask them what exactly that is and they start to talk about how immigration is out of control and how there's too many mosques and halal food everywhere.
So just going by that, British Culture is basically being xenophobic and scared of change/coloured people?
Dorsal Axe
Member
FBI 'warned MI5 in January that Salman Abedi was planning terror attack in UK'
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...r-salman-abedi-manchester-arena-a7760756.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...r-salman-abedi-manchester-arena-a7760756.html
KZObsessed
Member
^^ Fucking hell. Massive failure by the intelligence services.
Somebody has some explanations to give. Lack of resources is not a satisfactory explanation.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
I hope she gets raked over the coals for this massive failure of trust. How can you trust someone to keep you safe when they ignored so many reports?
Miles Quaritch
Member
It actually is a satisfactory explanation. If you have X number of suspects and the one you're investigating isn't showing signs of overt extremism or behaviour that's a red flag for terrorist intent, you move onto other targets that are more pressing.
Fewer resources = less time to spend investigating targets.
RustyNails
Member
Looks like British authorities dropped the ball here big time. He was referred to the authorities 5 fucking times and still they did nothing? Shameful.
So you investigate every suspect for few months and then they can do whatever they want? You don't even monitor them going in and out of the country? You find this satisfactory?
Theonik
Member
In practice that's the best you can do. Surveillance is too expensive and the more of it you have the less useful it becomes due to excess noise. You can't watch someone forever unless you can justify doing so.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I don't find it satisfactory, but think about what you're saying. You can't monitor someone indefinitely.
We'll never have enough security personnel to allow for that kind of monitoring, the alternative is to create laws that make monitoring easier, but are we willing to keep giving up more and more rights?
It's not about monitoring everybody indefinitely. We are talking about someone who was reported 5 different times as being radicalised and possibly dangerous. And who was put on a US terrorist list in 2016. And who was reported by US intelligence early this year as planning something. Who returned from Libya in UK just some days before the attack. We talk here about a week or two of surveillance that should have been enough.
One would think that anybody who's on a terrorists list and is returning from Libya or Syria would be observed for a period, given the patterns of some recent terrorists attacks.
UK authorities received 5 separate warnings by close associates and a warning from the FBI and that wasn't enough to warrant an investigation and he was allowed to travel freely.
That's either incompetence or the structure of the government is so inefficient that it is needlessly putting UK citizens into potential danger every day.
That's either incompetence or the structure of the government is so inefficient that it is needlessly putting UK citizens into potential danger every day.
Born in Manchester, not sure if that makes him a citizen.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He was, yes. His parents were given British citizen status in the '90s.
It's neither the muslim community.. whatever that means, or MI5 that I blame. If it's true that there are however many thousands of radicals in the UK, I'm not sure how much I trust that anyone can do the job of stopping it. As far as the community, of course there are good people that will do the right thing. At the same time there are no-go zones in various European nations.
So the blame for Manchester is on the UK government. Deport these people, throw them in jail if they are citizens or whatever else needs to be done to purge them from the society. Pretty simple system of gather whatever intel you need, and in this case seems like there was a ton of it with corroboration from the family and friends, put him in front of a judge and settle it. At least get the obvious cases like this guy out of the picture.
So the blame for Manchester is on the UK government. Deport these people, throw them in jail if they are citizens or whatever else needs to be done to purge them from the society. Pretty simple system of gather whatever intel you need, and in this case seems like there was a ton of it with corroboration from the family and friends, put him in front of a judge and settle it. At least get the obvious cases like this guy out of the picture.