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[membran]

Gunplay is obviously paramount, and we focus a crazy amount of time on nailing the feel of firing the weapons in our game to make sure that they have weight and impact.

That's the one thing I really look forward to in this beta. Halo's gunplay has always been tight and from what I've seen in the H5 videos, it will be on par with if not better than previous Halo games.

We want each of the new abilities to expand the possibility space for competitive combat in meaningful ways. They should provide players with new tools to create on the battlefield and present interesting choices on both sides of an encounter. [...] Some of the Spartan Abilities are core mobility options like Clamber, Sprint and Thruster that allow for more fluid and natural movement through the environment. They should augment combat in interesting ways, when used effectively.

I played a lot of Halo PvP, even competitively back when Halo 2 was in its prime. And even though I'm one of these guys who's always skeptical of change regarding their favorite shooter franchise, let me tell you: Halo's movement and floaty jumping mechanics were always wonky at best. You had to get used to it, learn its intricacies and the "trick jump" spots in the maps to be any good at maneuvering. The one thing to get down was the fact you had to crouch mid-air to make certain jumps and that was it. Still, 1on1 shootouts never really went past (movement-wise) some strafing and jumping. Sure, you can pretend this constitutes a large enough skill gap but I really think it doesn't, it was needlessly complicated to pull off some good movement, counter-intuitive even.

If you look at it objectively, you've got to admit that they're right in addressing this, considering this will be a 2015 game. I'm only fearful that they've done too much at once, but I'll wait until after I've played the beta before passing final judgement. From what I can tell from the videos, a good player can out-maneuver and out-play a lesser skilled player hard, way harder than before. The problem that I see with it that you can also remove yourself from a critical situation much faster, safer and better than before.

Clambering it particular seems way too easy to pull off. Can you clamber sideways or do you at least have to face the edge you're clambering?

Other abilities are offensive in nature and more oriented toward “crowd-pleaser” moves (like Charge or Ground Pound) that provide a big punctuation point in a match. At a competitive level you are not going to see many GPs attempted in close games because the risk is too high. But when someone does go for it and manages to land it, they deliver a big wow moment that pays off both for them and the viewers of the match.

This is a joke, right? Explaining the implementation of a new game mechanic with its appeal to e-sports viewers, is he serious? This cannot be a valid reason at any point. I come from a eSports background but I still don't see their point here. Firstly, I hope that they give a proper audio cue if someone is charging up ground pound above you; secondly, as a viewer (as well as a player) I'd find it much more exciting to see or pull off a drop-down-into-backsmack because it's way harder as you cannot stand still mid-air and aim for a 1-Hit-Kill-AoE effect.

And lastly, I think they are pushing this way too hard as an eSports title. If it has merit, it'll become one. I've seen a photo of one of their LAN finals - some dudes at a table - I've played at more pompous LAN tournaments back in 2006.

On offense you can commit to an aggressive push or flank at a slight cost to weapon readiness.

From what I've seen, it really doesn't take long to go from sprinting to aiming, has to be less than half a second and is a minor penalty at best.

On defense, you can try for a rapid retreat but it carries the trade-off of stalling your shield recharge. Should you be able to escape from a situation where you are over-matched or have lost the upper hand? Yes, in a skillful manner (using mobility and spatial awareness to your advantage) and so long as your opponent has opportunity to counter using their own skills. The key for us has been to balance the potential escapability of sprint with mechanics like shield recharge and sprint ramp-up, while maintaining a sprint mechanic that feels good.

Problem is that using your skills (as in: sprinting?) lowers your weapon, rendering you unable to fire. On top of that, "chasing" a low/no-shield target in Halo has always been a bad idea. You are just asking to be naded or drawn into more enemies as you chase.
I've seen a video of this Greenskull guy (granted he was apparently playing vs scrubs) sprinting towards and ground pounding into a group of enemies (while being low shield), killing one then thruster-dashing to the right into a hallway to safety. I'm unsure if I like that kind of movement, it seems a little bit too... unpredictable? Predictability of enemy movement (by not going overboard on having tons of movement options) and therefore less randomness should be paramount IMHO.

but the larger Halo community is very diverse and we are building a game for an audience with many different perspectives represented amongst them. Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint

You got to give it to them: They don't beat around the bush. They are basically saying "screw you, vocal minority". Nothing new, but it's surprising to read this in a publicly released statement in this manner.
I'm not a fan of sprint, obviously. The reasons against it I'm sure others have pointed out already. The question is: would those silent masses NOT buy Halo 5 if it had no sprint? Would they even care or notice? Surely they won't creating threads about it, right?

I'd rather have a base movement speed increase by 10-15% as it was with the MLG settings of old. Those were quite nice to play with.

Particularly as this [sprint] is the third Halo game to feature the [sprint] mechanic.

Ah, it's tradition now, I see. Tradition's always good.

When a player crosses over from Campaign to Arena, or from Arena to big team MP, we want the mechanics to translate across consistently. It’s jarring to become accustomed to a core mechanic only to have it disappear, or vice versa.

Weak argument. Previous Halos even had different engines, aiming or mechanics for single- and multiplayer. But I can agree nontheless with this.

The other big change has been the addition of our internal pro team. They have been invaluable in helping us to identify issues with mechanics and map design that become obvious at the highest level of skilled play, and we’ve had the time and focus to react to that feedback.

The question is how often they actually listen to them. I can't fathom the idea that those pro players, some well known in the scene, welcomed the prophet's bane's 25% movement speed bonus (in addition to sprint and thruster pack dash).

Why are we still left with per-default enabled motion trackers in almost all playlists and SMG spawns? This time around, at least the pistol will be a suitable starting weapon and from what I hear, the SMG is op now?

Well, we'll see. I'm moderately hyped. As I said, the gunplay appears to be good and perhaps you can turn off some features in custom games (sprint, thruster pack, motion tracker). You'd still be left with maps designed around that features, but whatever, we got Forge, right?

 

[Caayn]

The Halo 5 ViDoc was filled with this stuff. "It's a Spartan, you should be able to...". Bringing lore into MP and therefore justifying those abilities is pretty bad reasoning in my eyes.

Which makes the change in scopes and the "visual" ADS even more weird. The scope of a weapon is integrated in a Spartan's hud, a Spartan is effectively always aiming down his/her sight.

Adding sprint is strange because a Spartan can sprint and shoot perfectly at the same time. Also they can achieve speeds of up to 50Kph.

Removing crouchjump in favor of the ledge grab is strange because a Spartan can crouchjump, a normal person can crouchjump.

Etc, etc.

343i adding lore to the mp is hypocritical as they're adding and removing it where they see fit. It's nothing more than an excuse to justify silly gameplay changes.

 

[Peterpan]

343i adding lore to the mp is hypocritical as they're adding and removing it where they see fit. It's nothing more than an excuse to justify silly gameplay changes.

I agree. I do believe however that it is not an excuse more of the base of the new additions and ideas.

 

[Final Verdict]

I read the whole explanation. Would have been much easier to say they are trying to court some of the younger shooter audience that are used to Call of Duty type controls and feel.

Best of luck to 343. Even though I disliked Halo 4 and MCC has an abysmal launch I would like to see them be successful and make Halo their own.

I don't really see how they are trying to court a younger audience as they are making the controls more complex by adding new abilitys, and giving everyone an even playing field.

As he said, they are trying to "enhance the skill gap".

By adding new abilities, while not changing any of the core gameplay experience, they are attempting to make a game that will be easy and familiar to pick up and play for anyone, but difficult to master for people who want to spend the time trying to improve their skills.

I will also say that he is absolutely right about there being a lot of halo fans out there that want and expect sprint to be there. I have several friends who are not hardcore gamers, or Cod gamers, but love to play halo, and they were telling me that they liked having sprint in there.
I guess that just my experience, but I can definitely see where they are coming from.

I do not just want a Halo 3.5 or whatever same people are imagining Halo 5 would be like without sprint/abilities. i want a gameplay experience that feels fresh, and not like Cod, which I believe they will be delivering this time around.

 

[Sai]

Which makes the change in scopes and the "visual" ADS even more weird. The scope of a weapon is integrated in a Spartan's hud, a Spartan is effectively always aiming down his/her sight.

Adding sprint is strange because a Spartan can sprint and shoot perfectly at the same time. Also they can achieve speeds of up to 50Kph.

Removing crouchjump in favor of the ledge grab is strange because a Spartan can crouchjump, a normal person can crouchjump.

Er, I can see folks curling themselves up in a similar manner to clear obstacles they're jumping over, but for a ledge that is trying to be stood upon, grasping with the arm(s) is a sensible action; that makes sense from a lore perspective.

But, crouch jumping was an important aspect of past Halo games that afforded a more clearer divide when it comes to the skill of maneuvering around the maps and the control thereof. Clambering may make more sense, but it's making this aspect of the game much more accessible in general.

In my opinion, that's a much bigger deal than sprint could ever be.

[EDIT] - And I agree concerning Smart Scope. This is definitely a step back from the prior look of zooming in with scoped weapons. At least, for weapons that have a scope, this look should remain the same as it always has, I think.

 

[Glass]

I can take a wait and see attitude to most of the spartan abilities, the only one I immediately don't like the look of is ground pound. Far more satisfying is a well aimed head shot as your flying through the air mid jump bearing down on your opponent, and I think a big AOE one-hit-kill instantly feels cheaper then the gunplay needed to kill someone.

It does sound like the hardest spartan ability to use though, so perhaps it'll quite rare.

 

[Sai]

I can take a wait and see attitude to most of the spartan abilities, the only one I immediately don't like the look of is ground pound. Far more satisfying is a well aimed head shot as your flying through the air mid jump bearing down on your opponent, and I think a big AOE one-hit-kill instantly feels cheaper then the gunplay needed to kill someone.

It does sound like the hardest spartan ability to use though, so perhaps it'll quite rare.

I think Ground Pound is superfluous, but after seeing it in action a few times, I don't think it's going to matter much against competent players; it's too high risk, with a low possibility of return. It takes too long for it to prepare, makes noticeable noise as it does so, and the AoE seems pretty tiny.

I don't think folks even with Assault Rifles will have much issue with knocking them out of the air. I'm still kind of curious as to what kind of damage it can inflict on vehicles, though.

 

[RBK]

What does MLG have to do with anything?

Again, if you think a particular Halo game is too slow, you should be asking the devs to increase the movement speed, not to add sprint. Increasing the base movement speed does fix the problem, adding sprint changes the combat dynamics completely ("run and gun" vs "run or gun") and creates more problems.

A lot since that's the only way you can increase movement speed?

Unless no one had a problem with it in the previous 4-5 Halo games.

 

[RSB]

A lot since that's the only way you can increase movement speed?

Unless no one had a problem with it in the previous 4-5 Halo games.

MLG settings in Halo 3 used faster movement speed because the standard movement speed was too slow. Which proves my point, the solution to a slow movement speed is increasing the movement speed, not adding sprint. Not that hard to understand, really.

 

[Akai__]

A lot since that's the only way you can increase movement speed?

Unless no one had a problem with it in the previous 4-5 Halo games.

What do you mean by "it's the only way"? You can go into game settings and bump up the movement speed in every custom gametype.

 

[RBK]

MLG settings in Halo 3 used faster movement speed because the standard movement speed was too slow. Which proves my point, the solution to a slow movement speed is increasing the movement speed, not adding sprint. Not that hard to understand, really.

Is there any Halo game that had faster player movement at default settings than it's predecessor?

Faster base movement was usually set aside for MLG, which isn't the standard playstyle for Halo players.

 

[RBK]

What do you mean by "it's the only way"? You can go into game settings and bump up the movement speed in every custom gametype.

It's synonymous with MLG settings.

Different wording should have been used.

 

[Dunkley]

Reading this, it makes me feel like they are focusing more on what is realistic for a Spartan to be able to do rather than what would make a good Halo multiplayer experience.

Where did we go wrong to have game design decisions be dictated by in-universe realism rather than ensuring balance and good flow?

 

[RSB]

Is there any Halo game that had faster player movement at default settings than it's predecessor?

Faster base movement was usually set aside for MLG, which isn't the standard playstyle for Halo players.

Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say...

If I remember, CoD 4 overshadowed Halo 3 players on Xbox Live.

They traded places in the weekly activity charts, but Halo 3 ended being the most played game on Xbox Live in 2007, 2008 and 2009.

 

[Foolishfellow]

343: Our intensive focus group testing proves that Halo 5 contains all of the elements that the kids these days want!!! More Dorritos, more fast, more e-sports, more fun!

^This is all you need to read. The Josh Holmes explanation is just gobbledygook.

 

[Subitai]

I've said it for a while, they just need to bit the bullet and split the player base. Spartan (map control) mode for old players & competition, and an ODST (CoD style mayhem) mode for new players. Trying to bridge the gap is just p*ssing everyone off and consuming whatever goodwill is left. It isn't like 343i is on its own with limited resources either. It is part of M$ and can get whatever it needs to sell the game so as to sell the Xbox One.

 

[NullPointer]

I've said it for a while, they just need to bit the bullet and split the player base. Spartan (map control) mode for old players & competition, and an ODST (CoD style mayhem) mode for new players. Trying to bridge the gap is just p*ssing everyone off and consuming whatever goodwill is left. It isn't like 343i is on its own with limited resources either. It is part of M$ and can get whatever it needs to sell the game so as to sell the Xbox One.

They managed this in Reach with the Arena, which had different settings and scoring. And they ended up doing more competitive settings in Halo 4 as well.

Always thought Reach's Arena idea was a good one and worth expanding upon.

 

[Sai]

They had some more competitive-minded maps and playlist changes for Halo 3 too, if I remember correctly.

[EDIT] - Actually, it was an MLG playlist, right?

Everyone would be better off demanding more choices 'n options, rather than insinuating that Halo should be played a specific way; the ideal Halo varies wildly among old and new fans alike.

 

[Mdot]

I don't think folks even with Assault Rifles will have much issue with knocking them out of the air. I'm still kind of curious as to what kind of damage it can inflict on vehicles, though.

Does shooting them while they prepare the move immediately take them out of it or does it still "charge" while being shot?

 

[JimmyBoy]

I dunno.
I appreciate the write up.
Halo has to evolve some time.
If you have an issue with sprint/dashing how else would you evolve it?

I just hope they don't make the time-to-kill too much lower.

 

[Sai]

Does shooting them while they prepare the move immediately take them out of it or does it still "charge" while being shot?

Haven't seen anyone shooting them down yet, since it's been so rarely used. I'd presume it's the latter though.

If you have an issue with sprint/dashing how else would you evolve it?

Simply increasing the base movement speed seems to be the prevailing opinion here.

 

[nbnt]

Which makes the change in scopes and the "visual" ADS even more weird. The scope of a weapon is integrated in a Spartan's hud, a Spartan is effectively always aiming down his/her sight.

Adding sprint is strange because a Spartan can sprint and shoot perfectly at the same time. Also they can achieve speeds of up to 50Kph.

Removing crouchjump in favor of the ledge grab is strange because a Spartan can crouchjump, a normal person can crouchjump.

Etc, etc.

343i adding lore to the mp is hypocritical as they're adding and removing it where they see fit. It's nothing more than an excuse to justify silly gameplay changes.

Crouch jumping is in. http://teambeyond.net/forum/index.p...-multiplayer-beta-reveal-discussion/?p=339399

 

[Sai]

Crouch jumping is in. http://teambeyond.net/forum/index.p...-multiplayer-beta-reveal-discussion/?p=339399

Ohh, that's good news.

I mean, clambering would still make that kind of pointless, but heeey.

 

[Caayn]

Crouch jumping is in. http://teambeyond.net/forum/index.p...-multiplayer-beta-reveal-discussion/?p=339399

Some good news

 

[JimmyBoy]

Simply increasing the base movement speed seems to be the prevailing opinion here.

So a kind of...less vertical and mobile unreal tournament/quake?
I'm not asking for it to become a twitch insta-gib shooter...just...some kind of new gameplay mechanic that you can't just ignore would be welcome at this point.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Crouch jumping is in. http://teambeyond.net/forum/index.p...-multiplayer-beta-reveal-discussion/?p=339399

Um, doesn't ledge grabbing make crouch jumping irrelevant?

 

[NullPointer]

Crouch jumping is in. http://teambeyond.net/forum/index.p...-multiplayer-beta-reveal-discussion/?p=339399

There are spots where you can crouch jump or spring jump to clear the upper level cleanly without having to do the clamber animation. Crouch jumping is faster and keeps your gun at the ready. Clamber is slower and puts your gun away.

Good players will crouch/spring jump onto higher ground where noobs will clamber. Plus there are long jumps that require sprint + thrust + clamber to even access. We'll see how it all plays out next month.

Its cool that crouch jumping is faster and more effective than clambering.

I'm happy to see clamber in though, as Halo is one of those games where I tend to miss jumps by what seems to be a fraction of a hair's width, often, so I appreciate that little extra nudge ;p

 

[Hahs]

As nice as this reads, it probably won't translate into anything meaningful until that beta. Putting ambitions into words comes with a grain of salt these days. Like he said, he can't really clarify how the rest of 343 feels. TBH I'm just glad that they give a fuck!

 

[Tye The Czar]

different times, COD was not king of FPS back when Halo 3 was big.

If I remember, CoD 4 overshadowed Halo 3 players on Xbox Live.