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[op_ivy]

It is for an arena shooter, where you should always be weapon ready.

there is no set rule for arena shooter. and i'd just requote my last sentence.

i find it odd that no one comments on my "revisionist history" post though. of all the things reach and 4 did wrong, sprint was quite minor. if the worst thing about halo 5 is that it allows you to sprint, it should be an utterly fantastic game.

 

[Killer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B28oQvaL7Mg

This how you make an arena shooter! god i miss my PC already . anyone tried it?

 

[RBK]

That Toxikk video looks more like UT than anything else.

Halo doesn't play like either one.

 

[Akai__]

there is no set rule for arena shooter. and i'd just requote my last sentence.

i find it odd that no one comments on my "revisionist history" post though. of all the things reach and 4 did wrong, sprint was quite minor. if the worst thing about halo 5 is that it allows you to sprint, it should be an utterly fantastic game.

Do you have any examples where arena shooters have Sprint and really large maps, slow movement speed, ADS and other abilities?

343 is literally promoting this whol arena shooter thing since E3 or Gamescom and in my opinion they are missing the point of what an arena shooter actuall is.

 

[op_ivy]

Do you have any examples where arena shooters have Sprint and really large maps, slow movement speed, ADS and other abilities?

343 is literally promoting this whol arena shooter thing since E3 or Gamescom and in my opinion they are missing the point of what an arena shooter actuall is.

can you name an arena shooter with rechargable health before halo? did that make it not an arena shooter? how about a radar? 2 weapon limit? any of these, and likely many more, could be used to say halo never was an "arena shooter". why call out sprint alone?

 

[NullPointer]

But that's the thing - Halo isn't *just* an arena shooter. Its also an objective based shooter with a mix of vehicles and infantry combat. And its got a huge single player and co-op component, steeped in continuing fiction.

 

[op_ivy]

But that's the thing - Halo isn't *just* an arena shooter. Its also an objective based shooter with a mix of vehicles and infantry combat. And its got a huge single player and co-op component, steeped in continuing fiction.

i agree. (not sure who you are responding to or what your point is)

 

[NullPointer]

i agree. (not sure who you are responding to or what your point is)

Just chiming in, but mostly in response to this:

It is for an arena shooter, where you should always be weapon ready.

 

[Figments]

Kinda sucks I didn't get an answer to my previous question--or if I did, at least none that I could see.

In any case, I'll ask again here, with additions as well as a suggestion.

- How does sprinting correlate to bigger maps and an increased movement speed doesn't? A lot of posters seem to be using those two in conjunction and getting me all confused.

- If they're gonna implement sprint, wouldn't it be a good idea to make it so you can still fire your weapon, but with a penalty to accuracy? I know you all just hate CoD-ifying this, but Advanced Warfare has a perk that allows you to fire while sprinting. Wouldn't that be an acceptable tradeoff?

 

[...Scatter...]

The shit map design came largely from catering to sprint though

According to what he said it clearly didn't. He said maps were completed prior to abilities being finalized or considered.

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

According to what he said it clearly didn't. He said maps were completed prior to abilities being finalized or considered.

That might even be worse...

 

[...Scatter...]

That might even be worse...

You're not wrong. Good to know they recognized their mistake and are fixing it.

 

[Hubble]

But that's the thing - Halo isn't *just* an arena shooter. Its also an objective based shooter with a mix of vehicles and infantry combat. And its got a huge single player and co-op component, steeped in continuing fiction.

Agree. I am not sure where this arena shooter and "even start" thing has come about. As an avid Halo competitive fan, there are some maps/game types like Guardian Oddball that did not have even starts and was not exactly an arena but was pure Halo in teamwork and strategy. Guardian Oddball MLG in Halo 3 is a good example of what Halo is.

 

[Photolysis]

How does sprinting correlate to bigger maps and an increased movement speed doesn't? A lot of posters seem to be using those two in conjunction and getting me all confused.

Sprint will involve far higher movement speeds than would ever be considered for the base movement speed. Therefore to balance around that, the maps need to be far larger.

A larger base movement speed does require larger maps, but you have more granular control; you could increase it by 10% if you wanted and you're free to do so. Making sprint a 10% speed increase on the other hand would be ridiculous, given what you have to sacrifice for it.

Sprint also involves locking out combat options. So while the maps have to be balanced around the use of sprint, you cannot actually manuever around the maps at that speed while engaging in combat or being ready to do so. The end result is slower gameplay (longer time to traverse maps), as well as encouraging rushing to power weapons over more tactical play. The maps become far larger in real terms.

Without sprint and just having a single base movement speed, you can balance around that while allowing players full access to the sandbox. You can also tweak the speed more freely to provide good feedback to players. Thus you end up with a faster and more responsive game.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ardians-new-smart-scope-and-spartan-abilities

Its only visual. Can we stop now?

 

[Figments]

Sprint will involve far higher movement speeds than would ever be considered for the base movement speed. Therefore to balance around that, the maps need to be far larger.

A larger base movement speed does require larger maps, but you have more granular control; you could increase it by 10% if you wanted and you're free to do so. Making sprint a 10% speed increase on the other hand would be ridiculous, given what you have to sacrifice for it.

Sprint also involves locking out combat options. So while the maps have to be balanced around the use of sprint, you cannot actually manuever around the maps at that speed while engaging in combat or being ready to do so. The end result is slower gameplay (longer time to traverse maps), as well as encouraging rushing to power weapons over more tactical play. The maps become far larger in real terms.

Without sprint and just having a single base movement speed, you can balance around that while allowing players full access to the sandbox. You can also tweak the speed more freely to provide good feedback to players. Thus you end up with a faster and more responsive game.

Thanks for the reply.

Though, what I suggested seems to make some bit of sense, at least in the context you've given me.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

You know, I'd be more ok with 343 tampering with the core halo gameplay if their throwback to the oldschool halo fans (MCC) actually worked as intended. I should be playing Halo 2 ranked team hardcore with 3 other friends on dedicated servers right now. Since literally none of that is possible right now and MCC is dead in the water, I'm in here stressing about Halo 5. Everything about this sucks.

yeah, I am sort of feeling like they are giving up on it.

 

[Diprosalic]

Its only visual. Can we stop now?

we already know that it isn't. Can we stop now?

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

Its only visual. Can we stop now?

It says right in there that scoping narrows the spread of bullets a bit. Nothing major, I'd assume. And it only applies to automatic weapons like the AR and such. I'm super happy with that.

Thanks for linking that interview by the way, Gnome. It got me a little more optimistic and hyped for the beta!

 

[TheDarkBites]

They couldn't get servers running for four games that have already been released in a lobby system that randomly generates four separate attribute types on the simplest way possible for over a month.

I'm not buying Halo 5 simply because of Halo MCC's massive fuck-up.

 

[Figments]

They couldn't get servers running for four games that have already been released in a lobby system that randomly generates four separate attribute types on the simplest way possible for over a month.

I'm not buying Halo 5 simply because of Halo MCC's massive fuck-up.

"The more complex a system is, the more it is prone to catastrophic failure."

Don't ask me where that's from. I'm too lazy to look it up. But it isn't wrong.

 

[cluto]

"The more complex a system is, the more it is prone to catastrophic failure."

Don't ask me where that's from. I'm too lazy to look it up. But it isn't wrong.

Regardless of how complex a system is, you don't release it as a broken mess.

 

[Two Words]

You can argue what does and doesn't make something an arena shooter all day, but Halo 5 is not the kind of arena shooter I want to play. I don't think it is a kind most Halo fans want to play.

 

[nynt9]

"The more complex a system is, the more it is prone to catastrophic failure."

Don't ask me where that's from. I'm too lazy to look it up. But it isn't wrong.

So releasing games in a "catastrophic failure" state is ok as long as they're complex games?

 

[Hubble]

Why the fuck is the scope on the BR so damn big? Like even when it is not scoped, it is monstrous on screen. Looks so hideous and not Halo, where weapons have art to it than a scope.

 

[BuggeryBugz]

I re-watched the halo 5 beta vid-doc and I'm not sure about it all now. I know I don't like the thruster pack and neither here nor there with sprint but I now think that the SMG and the AR should not have zoom.

 

[Figments]

Regardless of how complex a system is, you don't release it as a broken mess.

I never condoned what they did, only that they need to learn from it. Also, that entire quote comes from the concept of making something more complex to fix its problems. Something's gonna go wrong somewhere--it's inevitable.

Here's a good read on the subject: http://www.itskeptic.org/great-paper-failure-complex-systems

So releasing games in a "catastrophic failure" state is ok as long as they're complex games?

It's nice that you put words in my mouth. Honest, it is.

 

[Mayyhem]

This game wont be good.

Come on, it's 343. What have they done so far that hasn't sent the Halo franchise and fan base into oblivion?

Last chance for most, I guess.

 

[Akai__]

can you name an arena shooter with rechargable health before halo? did that make it not an arena shooter? how about a radar? 2 weapon limit? any of these, and likely many more, could be used to say halo never was an "arena shooter". why call out sprint alone?

All these examples are obviously factoring into it not being an arena shooter. I just choose Sprint, because it really is the worst offender for me. Halo was never a true arena shooter game, but all these abilities that got (re-)introduced in Halo 5 are making it less and less an arena shooter. Don't know why 343i is obsessed with the word, but I think the community used the word to describe what they actually want.

Agree. I am not sure where this arena shooter and "even start" thing has come about. As an avid Halo competitive fan, there are some maps/game types like Guardian Oddball that did not have even starts and was not exactly an arena but was pure Halo in teamwork and strategy. Guardian Oddball MLG in Halo 3 is a good example of what Halo is.

343i is using "Arena Multiplayer", since the E3 reveal. Not sure when they did start talking about even starts, but that refers to the starting weapons and abilities here, I think. Weapons and power ups on maps are probably not what they meant, allthough it should always take the same amount of time to get to these for both teams.

And Guardian is probably one of the better examples, because it happens to be asymmetrical map, with asymmetical placed power weapons and power ups.

 

[Altima]

Why people hate sprint ?

In CS we have to swap to knife to sprint ....

 

[Unknown One]

Why people hate sprint ?

In CS we have to swap to knife to sprint ....

Not the same thing. Knife is a constant speed and you have total control over your movement at the cost of having a useless weapon out.

Sprint is a linear dash with restricted movement options.

 

[king picollo]

Appeasing the casual halo/fps players who will only play for a week, at the cost of the halo fans who would play indefinitely if the game worked right.

 

[Killer]

Appeasing the casual halo/fps players who will only play for a week, at the cost of the halo fans who would play indefinitely if the game worked right.

Has any fanbase been treated like this? This is Sonic tier.

 

[DryvBy]

Wait, they're copying the COD formula? Why?

 

[JaggedSac]

Sprint will involve far higher movement speeds than would ever be considered for the base movement speed. Therefore to balance around that, the maps need to be far larger.

A larger base movement speed does require larger maps, but you have more granular control; you could increase it by 10% if you wanted and you're free to do so. Making sprint a 10% speed increase on the other hand would be ridiculous, given what you have to sacrifice for it.

Sprint also involves locking out combat options. So while the maps have to be balanced around the use of sprint, you cannot actually manuever around the maps at that speed while engaging in combat or being ready to do so. The end result is slower gameplay (longer time to traverse maps), as well as encouraging rushing to power weapons over more tactical play. The maps become far larger in real terms.

Without sprint and just having a single base movement speed, you can balance around that while allowing players full access to the sandbox. You can also tweak the speed more freely to provide good feedback to players. Thus you end up with a faster and more responsive game.

The maps we've seen in videos look like normal sized Halo maps to me.

 

[Silphonica]

But that's the thing - Halo isn't *just* an arena shooter. Its also an objective based shooter with a mix of vehicles and infantry combat. And its got a huge single player and co-op component, steeped in continuing fiction.

The real problem with Halo is the disparity of the communities wants.

 

[IxmagicmanIx]

The argument that it is realistic or organic to be sprinting around in a firefight is fucking retarded. The only thing that matters is how it effects gameplay, not the lore behind a spartan running at high speeds. Sprint makes gameplay worse, that's the only factor that should matter.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

I think it's great that he wrote this piece, more developers should do similar. The problem I have with it is that it sounds like he's rationalizing why the new additions are there instead of saying why they need to be there in the first place. It's great saying that new abilities bring new sorts of movement options to the player, but I'd rather hear why he thinks the player needs to have these movement options. If it's change for the sake of change, that's fine, I'll judge the game on it's own merits but what I'd like to hear is what he thinks Halo is and how he plans on putting his own stamp on it.

 

[MysteryM]

I quite enjoyed reach and the sprint was probably the armour ability that I didn't mind.

There is something to be said about everyone moving at the same speed in past halo games, if you die and your team mates are in trouble it can take a while to get back there depending on spawn location but I did like that about it.

I'll treat Halo 5 with an open mind and will purchase a few weeks in.

 

[Femmeworth]

I couldn't make it through all that, someone has been drinking too much of their own punch.

One of the fundamental goals that we start with for the game is “immersion,” which I’ll just use as shorthand for creating and maintaining an active sense of belief on the part of the player in everything that they are experiencing. This unpacks to a lot more complexity than I am going to dive into, but at the most basic level we are trying to simulate the act of a bipedal hero moving through an environment from first person perspective. We want to convince the player that this illusion is true. We start with questions like: what would it feel like to move? To shoot? Upon that foundation we consider the actions and capabilities that should be available to a Spartan on the battlefield. What are the unique capabilities available to a Spartan? How should those feel? This is based on established lore and our individual perceptions. To achieve an immersive experience, we first ground our portrayal of actions in what it feels like to be a human being in our world (that’s the common lens that we all use as reference) and then we adapt those actions to reflect what it would be like to be a kick-ass Spartan wrapped in Mjolnir assault armor.

Good god.

 

[Calm Killer]

Just to add to the conversation here. My general thought behind the halo series is Halo CE and 2 are the best of the series. I know a lot of people Love Halo 3. That is when it started to go downhill for me with the inclusion of the Bubble shield and other deployables. This was the early implementation of armor abilities. They weren't as bad because they were pick up items so you still had to control an area if you wanted one. They weren't power weapons, but it played into the game style and skill leave that Halo represents. Halo Reach, Halo 4 introduced armor abilities and sprint. These completely changed the game play. Sprint changed the way a game played in many bad ways, IMO. Map size had to change. Map design completely change.

The Multiplayer maps were so good in Halo 2. They were great design for the gametypes that we could play in the game, repetitive fun on multiple game types and multiple maps. Halo 3 had some alright maps, Reach's maps were kinda bad, Halo 4 maps were terrible because there were almost no smaller maps. Not that they were poorly designed or didn’t look great, they just didn’t play great. Haven was the best map in the game, because it fell closest to the normal halo sized maps: Arena 4v4 or smaller. Adding in the armor abilities or spartan abilities and Sprint completely change map size and map design. Clamor is an ability that allows you to be rewarded for missing a jump. If you miss a jump you should die or have to attempt the jump again. It is part of the skill level that has made halo worth playing. I won't say that it is catering to the new players, because it is a mechanic that is built into the game: new movement options. I will say that once you start doing this it changes Halo into something that is not Halo.

The basic functions of halo that make halo fun. Everyone that has experience with Halo knows the Triangle of fun. Shoot, Melee, Grenade. 30 seconds of fun repeated over and over. Great maps designed around an arena type game. This needs to be the focus of the games. Adding in the abilities takes away from what is Halos foundation. Altering the movement doesn’t make an equal game. I know 343 is trying to innovate and make something new and fresh, but really all I want is great Halo, classic style no movement speed alterations, no abilities, no deployables. Whatever you want to call it, I don’t want it in my halo. I want greatly designed maps, small and Medium sized with larger maps for BTB, but the focus being on small maps. Power weapons need to spawn on the field. AR starts or BR starts, whatever balances well. Servers and multiplayer that has been battle tested and hardened before release. I want a nice stable environment to enjoy it in.

I am not trying to place blame on anyone here, as enough of that has happened here far too much. I am just trying to say what I want to happen and what needs to happen. They almost got it right with Halo 2A MP, but not there yet. We need more maps and a stable environment.

 

[Akai__]

The real problem with Halo is the disparity of the communities wants.

Yep, but that problem is kinda solved, when the MCC works to 100% and maps/gamemodes get some tweaks.

It was a really clever move from 343i and/or Microsoft to do this.
People can always return to the collection and play their favourite Halo MP. Such a shame, that the execution sucks.

I think it's great that he wrote this piece, more developers should do similar. The problem I have with it is that it sounds like he's rationalizing why the new additions are there instead of saying why they need to be there in the first place. It's great saying that new abilities bring new sorts of movement options to the player, but I'd rather hear why he thinks the player needs to have these movement options. If it's change for the sake of change, that's fine, I'll judge the game on it's own merits but what I'd like to hear is what he thinks Halo is and how he plans on putting his own stamp on it.

The Halo 5 ViDoc was filled with this stuff. "It's a Spartan, you should be able to...". Bringing lore into MP and therefore justifying those abilities is pretty bad reasoning in my eyes.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

The Halo 5 ViDoc was filled with this stuff. "It's a Spartan, you should be able to...". Bringing lore into MP and therefore justifying those abilities is pretty bad reasoning in my eyes.

Yeah if that is their reasoning behind it, then I think that's a poor source of design. I know a lot of people like world of Halo but design should come first and the lore should be built around that. The argument in game design of "x should be able to do y" so we'll build a mechanic to reflect is quite poor.

When we play a game, we accept that we're giving up a certain amount agency in order to receive the play experience the designer intended. In previous Halo games, we accepted things like not being able to sprint because being able to sprint would fundamentally change the pacing of the combat we enjoy. Players are happy to suspend disbelief if the core experience is enjoyable.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Appeasing the casual halo/fps players who will only play for a week, at the cost of the halo fans who would play indefinitely if the game worked right.

Some of you all act like you didn't play Halo 4. From what I'm seeing, everything in 5 seems to be 343 reeling Halo back in from the insanity that was 4. Sure, it still has a few of the different mechanics, but it sounds way better than 4 at this point. Everyone with equal starts, map control is back, etc.

It's a wait and see scenario for sure, but at least we get a beta to decide.

 

[RSB]

Can you name any Halo game that does this without the help of MLG settings?

What does MLG have to do with anything?

Again, if you think a particular Halo game is too slow, you should be asking the devs to increase the movement speed, not to add sprint. Increasing the base movement speed does fix the problem, adding sprint changes the combat dynamics completely ("run and gun" vs "run or gun") and creates more problems.

 

[op_ivy]

Some of you all act like you didn't play Halo 4. From what I'm seeing, everything in 5 seems to be 343 reeling Halo back in from the insanity that was 4. Sure, it still has a few of the different mechanics, but it sounds way better than 4 at this point. Everyone with equal starts, map control is back, etc.

It's a wait and see scenario for sure, but at least we get a beta to decide.

yuuup. halo 5, on paper at least, seems like a better game then reach or 4. this should be celebrated.

i do understand the need to voice criticism though, particularly for a beta where the devs are asking for feedback for a title releasing nearly a year away. so sprint naysayers, keep at it and good luck.

 

[samurai1226]

The points that really made me quit playing Halo 4 were the random elements like Custom Loadouts, Ordanance Drops and way too many one-hit-powerweapons.

Halo 5 seems to fix all of this and as long as the gunplay is more focussed on skillweapons like BR or DMR I can live with Sprint and the abilities.

When playing MCC I somehow always try to press sprint because the movement speed in some open environments really dont seem outdated to me. I loved classic Halo, but I dont think a FPS without sprint would work very well.

CS:GO is a bad example to me, since like CS:S it's just another Remake of CS 1.6 with only very minor differences.

 

[Drubbed]

PEACE 343I you fucked up MCC and this sounds awful.

Phil needs a serious word with these guys.

 

[Septic360]

The points that really made me quit playing Halo 4 were the random elements like Custom Loadouts, Ordanance Drops and way too many one-hit-powerweapons.

Halo 5 seems to fix all of this and as long as the gunplay is more focussed on skillweapons like BR or DMR I can live with Sprint and the abilities.

Yeah exactly. Plus the lack of decent maps in the game.

I think over time, the hatred or intolerance for all things Halo 4 has accrued and the some members of the community are being a bit too dismissive. Its now up to 343 to prove otherwise.

343 have TWO strikes against their name now; (1) the failing of Halo 4's MP and (2) TMCC being a broken mess. Let's hope Halo:5 Guardians can break that chain otherwise the Halo franchise will go down the toilet in terms of how it will regarded from H5 onwards.

 

[watership]

The points that really made me quit playing Halo 4 were the random elements like Custom Loadouts, Ordanance Drops and way too many one-hit-powerweapons.

Halo 5 seems to fix all of this and as long as the gunplay is more focussed on skillweapons like BR or DMR I can live with Sprint and the abilities.

This is my feelings exactly.