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[Iksenpets]

Yes, that was great. I also loved the Proudwing story, how it sets up to be some underdog, believe in yourself, never give up, have faith, work hard, good karma fable. But for Stannis, the lesson was basically "I wasted my time and needed to get a better fucking hawk."

I love how he just sort of pivots into that story out of nowhere. Like, he's been itching to tell someone his sad bird story for years, and today is the day.

 

[Cornballer]

A couple of questions based on this week's chapters:

1. What's Jojen's first dream all about? He's talking about Bran. I feel like I'm missing something here:

You were sitting at supper, but instead of a servant, Maester Luwin brought you your food. He served you the king’s cut off the roast, the meat rare and bloody, but with a savory smell that made everyone’s mouth water. The meat he served the Freys was old and grey and dead. Yet they liked their supper better than you liked yours.

2. Arya's arc at Harrenhal involves her picking the three names for Jaqen to kill. Her choices make some sense on a personal level (Chiswyck and Weese to start), but if she were to try and impact the war as much as she could, what's the correct play there? Take out Tywin? Who else that she knew would be worthwhile in a strategic sense? Just curious what other people think about this.

 

[butzopower]

1. What's Jojen's first dream all about? He's talking about Bran. I feel like I'm missing something here

I forget what news Bran gets, but the Freys learn that some other Frey died and instead of being sad all they can think about is where they are now in the succession for the Twins.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

A couple of questions based on this week's chapters:

1. What's Jojen's first dream all about? He's talking about Bran. I feel like I'm missing something here:

It's when Luwin bring word of one of Robb's victories. Bran is happy Robb won, but wants him home instead of out fighting, and one of the Frey's died in the battle and the Frey boys don't care, and just talk about Frey succession. Something like that.

 

[Cornballer]

I forget what news Bran gets, but the Freys learn that some other Frey died and instead of being sad all they can think about is where they are now in the succession for the Twins.

It's when Luwin bring word of one of Robb's victories. Bran is happy Robb won, but wants him home instead of out fighting, and one of the Frey's died in the battle and the Frey boys don't care, and just talk about Frey succession. Something like that.

Thanks, that makes sense. I was trying to tie it into the Red Wedding, but it wasn't adding up.

 

[Iksenpets]

A couple of questions based on this week's chapters:

1. What's Jojen's first dream all about? He's talking about Bran. I feel like I'm missing something here:

2. Arya's arc at Harrenhal involves her picking the three names for Jaqen to kill. Her choices make some sense on a personal level (Chiswyck and Weese to start), but if she were to try and impact the war as much as she could, what's the correct play there? Take out Tywin? Who else that she knew would be worthwhile in a strategic sense? Just curious what other people think about this.

There are a few different ways she could go with it I guess. If she wants maximum Lannister devastation, she could go with Tywin, Joffrey, and Cersei. If she were psychic, then she would probably want to take out Balon instead of Cersei to spare the North some damage, or maybe take out Theon to spare Winterfell. If she wants to preserve Northern independence, she probably has to take out Stannis, since even if she destroys the Lannisters, Robb would probably have to yield to Stannis eventually. So maybe Tywin, Balon, Stannis gets her the best chance at an independent, minimally destroyed North.

 

[Cornballer]

There are a few different ways she could go with it I guess. If she wants maximum Lannister devastation, she could go with Tywin, Joffrey, and Cersei. If she were psychic, then she would probably want to take out Balon instead of Cersei to spare the North some damage, or maybe take out Theon to spare Winterfell. If she wants to preserve Northern independence, she probably has to take out Stannis, since even if she destroys the Lannisters, Robb would probably have to yield to Stannis eventually. So maybe Tywin, Balon, Stannis gets her the best chance at an independent, minimally destroyed North.

Tywin, Balon, Stannis would certainly upset things. Based only on her limited perspective, the Lannister trio might be the best bet.

 

[Iksenpets]

Finished this week's block of chapters. Made me feel dumb for complaining about the dullness of last week's slate, because the action really ramps up in these. We get the start of Jaqen's killings, Renly's death, Theon's attack on the North, etc. Really enjoyed this week's reading.

Few thoughts:

I still haven't forgiven the show for cutting Renly's bit with the peach. That last showdown between the Baratheon brothers is really great, and I love the whole Baratheon family dynamic. The inter-Baratheon feud is a lot of fun for me, because I think both of the brother's really do have a pretty strong case against the other; there's no clear good guy/bad guy, or even better king/worse king. Renly's right that Stannis' unpopularity really is an issue and Stannis is right that just ignoring the law shouldn't be an option. There's probably a solution to this those problems if they could just come together, but there's just too much bitterness between the two for that to ever happen.

Reading the bit where Brienne makes Cat swear that she won't stand in Brienne's way when the time comes for Stannis makes me wonder if in the book version of the story Stannis might eventually get entangled in the Riverlands plot with Brienne and Stoneheart. That line really seems to be setting something like that up.

Also, with the value of hindsight, it's kind of crazy how many mistakes Edmure makes simultaneously in the last Cat chapter. He simultaneously gives both Bolton and Frey free reign for their eventual betrayal, and pushes Tywin out of Robb's trap and into his eventual victory over Stannis. Despite all of this, for some reason I really enjoy Edmure's character and hope we get more of him.

Jojen's dream about "Reek" flaying Bran and Rickon's faces does a good job of lending some legitimacy to the eventual fakeout with their deaths, which I actually totally believed at first in the books. That said, the Reek/Ramsay switcheroo story is probably the first book plot line that I really dislike. Maybe chapters in future week's will better sell me on is value, but based on just my memories of reading it a few years ago, it's so needlessly convoluted and confusing. Why not just have Ramsay as Ramsay, and say that Rodrik hasn't executed him yet because he wants the official OK from the king before executing the son of a major lord. It seems like that would change pretty much nothing about the story, while removing a confusing fake identity.

 

[Cornballer]

I finished up, too. I'll try and add some comments when I have some time. Very short chapters this week - it surprised me that a bunch of them were only 5-6 pages long.

 

[bengraven]

WEEK 12: UNDYING

ACOK 41: Daenerys III - Daenerys's request for aid is turned down by the rulers of Qarth. Quaithe tells Daenerys she must go to Asshai to find truth.
ACOK 42: Tyrion IX - Myrcella leaves King's Landing for Dorne. Joffrey, Tyrion and much of the court are caught in a riot on the way back to the Red Keep from the docks. Sandor saves Sansa from the mob.
ACOK 43: Davos II - Stannis meets with Ser Cortnay Penrose, who refuses to yield Storm's End. Davos takes Melisandre by boat under the walls of Storm's End, where she births a creature of shadow.
ACOK 44: Jon V - Qhorin Halfhand arrives at the Fist of the First Men. Jon will accompany him on a scouting mission into the mountains.
ACOK 45: Tyrion X - Tyrion orders Ser Jacelyn to seize Tommen, who is to be taken to Rosby. He learns that Stannis has taken Storm's End and makes plans to hide Shae in the Red Keep.
ACOK 46: Catelyn VI - Edmure meets Lord Tywin in battle and wins a victory at Stone Mill.
ACOK 47: Bran VI - Theon captures Winterfell.
ACOK 48: Arya IX - Arya enlists Jaqen's help in rescuing a group of newly-arrived northmen captives, who it turns out allowed themselves to be captured on purpose in order to take the castle. Roose Bolton arrives and takes charge of Harrenhal.
ACOK 49: Daenerys IV - Daenerys meets with the Undying.
ACOK 50: Tyrion XI - Tyrion prepares King's Landing for Stannis's arrival. Ser Balon Swann and Ser Osmund Kettleblack are raised to the Kingsguard.

I finished up, too. I'll try and add some comments when I have some time. Very short chapters this week - it surprised me that a bunch of them were only 5-6 pages long.

Yeah, that was another reason why I went with more than 8 chapters per week - then again once we get to Feast some of the chapters go on forever.

 

[Cornballer]

It's a shame that Cortnay Penrose's appearance in the books is so short. He made quite an impression with his profanity laced rebuke of Stannis in front of Storm's End.

Melisandre spoke instead. “May the Lord of Light protect you in your darkness, Ser Cortnay.”

“May the Others bugger your Lord of Light,” Penrose spat back, “and wipe his arse with that rag you bear.”

I also like Qhorin Halfhand's first appearance when he shows up at the Fist of Men. It highlights the bleak situation and desperation of the rangers North of the Wall, and there's a some good foreshadowing sprinkled in with the men grumbling about Mormont's leadership and a few other things. Btw, do we ever find out who buried the Dragonglass there? Benjen?

Another highlight, Varys tells the tale of being cut and explains his hatred of magic to Tyrion.

“One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

“The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man’s letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

“Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer’s trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead.”

 

[sinxtanx]

Btw, do we ever find out who buried the Dragonglass there?

Spoiler ACOK-ADWD:

Spoiler

-------------as of ADWD, no we don't----------------

 

[Iksenpets]

I got behind for a while, then ahead again. I went ahead and just read up to the end of the Blackwater battle, since it felt weird to cut off in the middle of that. Few thoughts:

These chapters have continued to be really good. Clash has a slow first half, but the second half is pretty consistently great. It also reminds me of some of the weaknesses of the show version. It's good to see the consistent references to smaller plots here, like Beric and Barristan and Dontos, that the show just had to not mention at all until the exact moment they became important, for fear that they may have to cut them from future seasons.

I had forgotten how weird the pacing can be in the books, relative to the fairly even flow of the show's consistent crescendo to episodes 9/10. The House of the Undying sequence is so early! (The weasel soup bit happens shockingly early, too) I don't really care for the Qarth story in general, but the Undying part is one of my favorites. It's the trippiest the books ever get, and the foreshadowing is really impressive. The visions themselves have been disected to bits online, so I won't go into them much. I used to think the bit about the stone beast was about stone-faced Shireen eventually being sacrificed to raise a dragon, and that's still possible in the books, but less likely now that they did the sacrifice and were pretty clear that it had no result. I think it's more likely a reference to a greyscale plague coming with Connington, and the beast is a griffon rather than a dragon.

Every bit of Stannis/Davos dialogue continues to be great. I was talking about favorite Stannis scenes a few weeks back, but I was lying because my favorite is actually this conversation after Renly's death. The way he puts on his stern face to talk about how he mourns who Renly used to be rather than who he was, only to shortly thereafter swirl into self-doubt thinking about a peach is really fantastic. "Only Renly could vex me with a piece of fruit" is such a great expression of guilt from a guy who would never allow himself to actually express guilt.

Also on Stannis, one thing I always missed on the show was the genuine affection that seems to exist between him and Davos in the book. I could never imagine show Stannis saying something like "I have missed you sorely" to Davos. I really like their relationship.

I had forgotten about Jon's dream about Bran in the tree, but wow that is some early foreshadowing, and also seems to add to the evidence that Bran has at least some limited ability to interact with people across time. One thing that always intrigued me about Bran's Dance chapters is how ambiguous it is about whether what he's doing is good or not, and that actually starts way back here. Bran sounds perfectly calm and happy talking to Jon, but at the same time Jon smells overwhelming death coming off of the place.

I also like how Qhorin is completely accepting of Jon's story about the dream. It adds to the sense of mystery about the places beyond the Wall that Qhorin totally believes in magic.

The Catelyn-Jaime conversation in the cell before she frees him is a really good dialogue bit. Best dialogue Jaime's gotten so far. Another good one is the Hound-Sansa bit after the battle. The first time I read, I think the Hound's affection for Sansa flew under my radar until this scene, and it's a really nuanced portrayal of the character, the way he wobbles back and forth from violence to softness.

 

[Cornballer]

Spoiler ACOK-ADWD:

Spoiler

-------------as of ADWD, no we don't----------------

Thanks for clearing that up. No need for the spoiler tags through ADWD, btw.

I got behind for a while, then ahead again. I went ahead and just read up to the end of the Blackwater battle, since it felt weird to cut off in the middle of that.

Me too. I'm just finishing up the Tyrion chapter today.

The Catelyn-Jaime conversation in the cell before she frees him is a really good dialogue bit. Best dialogue Jaime's gotten so far.

That definitely stood out to me.

The parts North of the wall are great. Fast paced and lots of intrigue as we explore new territory. I liked Ygritte telling the story about Bael hiding in the crypts underneath Winterfell right before Rickon, Bran, and the others do the same thing.

 

[bengraven]

Another highlight, Varys tells the tale of being cut and explains his hatred of magic to Tyrion.

I wonder if this has something to do with his endgame.

Maybe the voice instructing him or something?

"Go where the seas are green and the rocks are black...
Bring the dead king there and get your cock back."

 

[Atraveller]

I wonder if this has something to do with his endgame.

Maybe the voice instructing him or something?

"Go where the seas are green and the rocks are black...
Bring the dead king there and get your cock back."

I've always view that part as Varys bullshiting Tyrion, either making Tyrion thinks he knows him more, or another way to explain/prove his loyalty at the eve of a potential major power shift.

I mean a Targaryen loyalist being anti-sorcery, doesn't that strike you as weird?

 

[Famassu]

So what's the latest word on Winds of Winter? Still 300+ years away or is it actually kind of maybe possibly perhaps mayhaps coming within the next century or so? Kind of grew tired of trying to follow the smallest tidbits of vague new news about a possible release date or how the writing of the book is advancing.

Just feels like he's read material from or released samples of, like, 20 chapters of TWOW already, so you'd imagine the full book wouldn't be that far behind.

 

[hythloday]

So what's the latest word on Winds of Winter? Still 300+ years away or is it actually kind of maybe possibly perhaps mayhaps coming within the next century or so? Kind of grew tired of trying to follow the smallest tidbits of vague new news about a possible release date or how the writing of the book is advancing.

Just feels like he's read material from or released samples of, like, 20 chapters of TWOW already, so you'd imagine the full book wouldn't be that far behind.

Latest word from GRRM (a couple weeks ago on his blog) is "it's done when it's done."

 

[RoninChaos]

Where are you guys at now?

 

[sinxtanx]

So what's the latest word on Winds of Winter? Still 300+ years away or is it actually kind of maybe possibly perhaps mayhaps coming within the next century or so? Kind of grew tired of trying to follow the smallest tidbits of vague new news about a possible release date or how the writing of the book is advancing.

Just feels like he's read material from or released samples of, like, 20 chapters of TWOW already, so you'd imagine the full book wouldn't be that far behind.

Latest word from GRRM (a couple weeks ago on his blog) is "it's done when it's done."

The latest TINFOIL is that since GRRMs editors' twitter has been inactive all month, TWOW is in editing.

 

[Iksenpets]

Where are you guys at now?

Wrapped up Clash and just did the first ten on Storm.

Clash ends really strongly, with the Ramsay reveal, Jon killing Qhorin, and Arya escaping Harrenhal. Jon and Qhorin in particular is one of those scenes where the show really disappoints in comparison. It was really unclear what was going on there on screen.

This does seem like it would be a really frustrating book if you didn't have Storm to jump straight into. If I had only read up to here, and couldn't go onward, I'd probably be stressed out wondering what the hell any of that Stannis plot was even included for if he just lost the battle like that, and what the hell is going on with this Ramsay guy, and why were the Freys all freaking out about being betrayed?

Starting Storm, I think this book does a much better job than Clash did at making sure that things are actually happening in the early chapters, beyond just recapping who each of the characters are. Jaime and Brienne get a good start to their relationship and a solid action scene, Jon meets Mance (this is another scene that I found really disappointing in the show. I'm sad we never got Mance's story about the cloak, and Jon's "wanting to fight for the living" is way lamer than him trying to use his actual bitterness over his bastardy), Sansa meets Olenna, Tyrion faces off with Tywin. All good stuff.

A few other things:

I knew Dolorous Edd is always cracking jokes, but I forgot what sick burns he can deliver, when he stands up for Sam when Chett is making fun of him.

Jaime's narration in his first chapter is really good. It's fun being in that character's head. "The courage of an especially brave ewe".

Olenna and Mance both get really good chapters dedicated to introducing them. I think some of my favorite chapters are the ones where GRRM has a particularly good non-POV character to introduce, so he just lets that character show up and completely dominate someone's chapter. He did it to really good effect with Walder Frey and Asha Greyjoy in the earlier books, too.

I forgot how Arya actually sees Nymeria from a distance, even though she doesn't know it, and Nymeria defends her from the Mummers.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but Bran's little crush on Meera is cute and sad. I was reminded about that when he talks about how she can always make him smile, but there have been other instances In Clash, too.

The first time I read, I was a big old dummy and didn't put Arstan = Barristan together, but rereading it's funny how many hints he's dropping for Jorah and Jorah just isn't connecting the dots because he's too busy being suspicious and grumpy.

One complaint, and I think we mentioned it before, but the writing on Dany still gets so creepy sometimes. Like, I know GRRM is pretty serious about portraying the sexuality of his characters, including the women, but Dany's sexuality feels like it was crafted to titillate male readers. Like, how does "Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her." not end up in the "Fat Pink Mast" annals of weird GRRM sex quotes? Have we considered that they might be the two other treasons?

 

[Cornballer]

Iksenpets, are you still reading this? I've been keeping up a pace of a few chapters a day. I'm on ASoS 49 right now, just before the Red Wedding.