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[CLEEK]

I think its safe to say that. I read this in the news and serious said "W*** T** F***" aloud.

Unless they plan on removing all games with any reference to military/political aggressors this is incredibly stupid. No more USSR, No more WW1/2 Germany, no more Communist China, no more N. Korea, no more... USA!

Edit2

By The logic here we should have also banned CS after the VT shooting and Doom after Columbine. Cuz you know they pulled the trigger just like that mean old flag did. Especially that flag when used in a historical context!

So you think the confederate flag is only a symbol of a military/political union? No other context and meaning? Really, none at all?

The flag isn't being removed due to any military reasons. It's because it is, and always has been, the symbol of white supremacist Southerners.

 

[Arkam]

So you think the confederate flag is only a symbol of a military/political union? No other context and meaning? Really, none at all?

The flag isn't being removed due to any military reasons. It's because it is, and always has been, the symbol of white supremacist Southerners.

In the context of a Civil War RTS I do. Pretty sure those tend to not even mention slavery/racism beyond major historical events.

 

[A Link to the Past]

In the context of a Civil War RTS I do. Pretty sure those tend to not even mention slavery/racism beyond major historical events.

Apple has already said that it does not/did not intend to remove games with historical contexts. Games like the ones you've mentioned likely aren't staying off for long.

 

[Arkam]

Apple has already said that it does not/did not intend to remove games with historical contexts. Games like the ones you've mentioned likely aren't staying off for long.

Hope that is how it all plays out. I get removing games that are clearly racist or hateful. But things based on historical events (we teach kids about) should remain.

 

[Soltype]

Yeah kinda. Did Betsy Ross have a tear from Bioshock Infinite to know about Japanese internment? She couldn't possibly design a flag to stand that stuff. Plus we also acknowkledge how that was bad and affected people. With the stereotypical Confederate flag we play dumb and and pretend like hate groups didn't co opt the flag and symbol.

Is Everyone who's flying American flag the right now is celebrating Jackson Indian Massacre? They aren't and are probably appalled by it. But the confederate flag was made as the pro-slavery then became the pro-immolation pro-lynching flag. And people are just like ehh, my heritage.

The stereotypical Confederate flag was made for hate, bigotry,slavery the whole thing. People who celebrate that, we know because we have pictures, were celebrating those parts. The other people who celebrate now post-60's America and aren't racist are just be willfully ignorant.

If they care enough about the heritage thing they get the right flag.

I guess I feel differently about it then, I think the flags origin doesn't matter, but what was tolerated underneath it does, and to be honest neither flag is clean.To say that people waving the confederate flag are celebrating the bad stuff is just as easy of an assumption to make that anyone waving the US flag is celebrating the countries bad deeds.There's no denying there's a history with the flag, but all flags carry a history, and I can't honestly judge someone from a flag they're waving.If I did that I would think most Americans were terrible people based on the country's history.I will say again I think the flag should be removed from government buildings.

 

[Sinister]

you cant censor everything.

 

[Bastables]

In the context of a Civil War RTS I do. Pretty sure those tend to not even mention slavery/racism beyond major historical events.

It's the wrong flag though. The square Battle standard of Northern army of Virginia is not the same as the actual flags chosen for the Confederacy or the 60s+ era anti segregationist states.

Civil war rts using the battle flag recast from a Square to a oblong that was popularised in reaction to anti segregationists in the 60s are misapprehending and misrepresenting history. Which is perhaps the point.

 

[AlimNassor]

Good move. There is no justification but racism for using that flag. Historical what? it's not even the right fucking flag. The flag symbolizes pure hatred, it stands for white supremacy and worse of all treason.

 

[Thanati]

God forbid kids would learn some history!

No game is allowed to show the swastica and yet kids are still taught in Germany about the holocaust and the atrocities committed under that symbol.

 

[soulassssns]

Good move. There is no justification but racism for using that flag. Historical what? it's not even the right fucking flag. The flag symbolizes pure hatred, it stands for white supremacy and worse of all treason.

So it should rightly be removed from government buildings. But this other stuff is going way over the top.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

Call in the lawyers.

Consider me in the "Bad Apple" camp.

 

[NoPiece]

It's the wrong flag though. The square Battle standard of Northern army of Virginia is not the same as the actual flags chosen for the Confederacy or the 60s+ era anti segregationist states.

Civil war rts using the battle flag recast from a Square to a oblong that was popularised in reaction to anti segregationists in the 60s are misapprehending and misrepresenting history. Which is perhaps the point.

Is Ken Burns misapprehending and misrepresenting history?

Using the flag in a historical game about the civil war is one of teh few appropriate uses for the flag, especially games about Gettysburg (which have been notably affects), because the Army of Northern Virginia was there, with their square battle flag.

edit: to be 100% clear, I agree there is a lot of misrepresentation of history around the flag, and it is inappropriate if not racist to use it in any modern context. But the rewriting/censorship of history is annoying and a bad precedent.

 

[Sobriquet]

Did anyone mention that they're reinstating some apps?

 

[makingmusic476]

It's the wrong flag though. The square Battle standard of Northern army of Virginia is not the same as the actual flags chosen for the Confederacy or the 60s+ era anti segregationist states.

Civil war rts using the battle flag recast from a Square to a oblong that was popularised in reaction to anti segregationists in the 60s are misapprehending and misrepresenting history. Which is perhaps the point.

The rectangular flag was used during the war. It was the second official naval jack of the Confederacy, and I believe was also used as a battle flag by the Army of Tennessee.

However, the square flag was the battle flag used by the Army of Northern Virginia and most others, and people calling the rectangular flag the battle flag has always somewhat gotten on my nerves.

 

[g0dofwar]

So there has been a terrorist attack and all some of you are concerned with is can i play a video game? The victims haven't even been buried yet and you feel the need to go on a forum to complain about not being able to play a video game!

 

[silvermember]

So there has been a terrorist attack and all some of you are concerned with is can i play a video game? The victims haven't even been buried yet and you feel the need to go on a forum to complain about not being able to play a video game!

When something only affects minorities, of course the people who don't understand the pain will only care about their pety worthless games. Games > empathy apparently.

 

[antonz]

So there has been a terrorist attack and all some of you are concerned with is can i play a video game? The victims haven't even been buried yet and you feel the need to go on a forum to complain about not being able to play a video game!

Using the victims like you are is just as disgusting. I don't see many people at all upset they cannot play some random civil war game. Most are just seeing the absurdity of the situation.

When something only affects minorities, of course the people who don't understand the pain will only care about their pety worthless games. Games > empathy apparently.

And of course you run straight to making it a race issue

 

[NoPiece]

So there has been a terrorist attack and all some of you are concerned with is can i play a video game? The victims haven't even been buried yet and you feel the need to go on a forum to complain about not being able to play a video game!

Yes, let's get back to more important stuff like "Games with the best feeling kills". I take it that when you stepped up for the Killzone Shotgun, you had the victims of gun violence in mind.

 

[CLEEK]

And of course you run straight to making it a race issue

It is a race issue!

That's the very point.

 

[NoPiece]

It is a race issue!

That's the very point.

The flag is a race issue. But when you make civil war video games a race issue, you've lost the point. You've taken a position with tremendous support and validity (removing the confederate flag from South Carolina govt buildings), and blurred with the indefensible position of removing civil war strategy games. Only bad comes from that becasue it undermines the legitimate momentum to remove the flag from modern life.

 

[DrROBschiz]

They didnt make civil war games a race issue

The games in question are simply collateral to a broad brush approach

The only message Apple is sending is a lazy PC attempt to show they are sympathetic to the recent events

I cant imagine they actually have a problem with content using proper histrical depictions. They just arent bothering to sift through thousands of apps to sort the good eggs from the bad ones

 

[Interfectum]

In case anyone missed it, updated the OP with some Apple related news.

 

[Interfectum]

They didnt make civil war games a race issue

The games in question are simply collateral to a broad brush approach

The only message Apple is sending is a lazy PC attempt to show they are sympathetic to the recent events

I cant imagine they actually have a problem with content using proper histrical depictions. They just arent bothering to sift through thousands of apps to sort the good eggs from the bad ones

Apparently Apple is even making the Civil War games remove the flag.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Apparently Apple is even making the Civil War games remove the flag.

Yeah just saw the update


Wtf. I dont agree but its still their prerogative.

 

[Crisium]

I've constantly hated the casual and governmental use of the flag, and consider it a racist symbol.

But for fucks sake Apple. You don't get to modify history. This is insane!

 

[DrROBschiz]

I've constantly hated the casual and governmental use of the flag, and consider it a racist symbol.

But for fucks sake Apple. You don't get to modify history. This is insane!

They arent the Smithsonian

But yes its pretty silly

Still lets not act like they are some coveted librarian of our culture and history

 

[Ainsz]

Is it 1984 yet?

 

[lefantome]

Censorship, censorship never changes.

It's not only useless but damaging. It's not the flag that makes people racist, is racist people that use the flag.
History is important to avoid future mistakes, ignoring it will backfire.

 

[Crisium]

They arent the Smithsonian

But yes its pretty silly

Still lets not act like they are some coveted librarian of our culture and history

They have the biggest market value of any company in the world though. Their actions affect a lot people, though thankfully I don't have an iOS product.

 

[silvermember]

Using the victims like you are is just as disgusting. I don't see many people at all upset they cannot play some random civil war game. Most are just seeing the absurdity of the situation.



And of course you run straight to making it a race issue

If you disn't know this was a race issue, then your high school assuming you are American failed you.

 

[silvermember]

Censorship, censorship never changes.

It's not only useless but damaging. It's not the flag that makes people racist, is racist people that use the flag.
History is important to avoid future mistakes, ignoring it will backfire.

This isn't censorship because no government is forcing them to do it. The business is simply using its first amendment right to not allow any images that might damage it's brand. It is their right as a person. Yes corporations are consider people in the United States.

With that said, they are going too far, but Apple can do what they want.

 

[DrROBschiz]

They have the biggest market value of any company in the world though. Their actions affect a lot people, though thankfully I don't have an iOS product.

Well they only did this for games on the app store

Not literature, music, art etc...

Lol

I guess games arent considered in the same ballpark?

 

[Mihos]

Why the hell are they singling out games? I can still watch Dukes of Hazard on iTunes, buy the Lynard Skinnard Freebird album, read Gettysburg, and on and on. Is there something inherently more racist about a turn based strategy game than there is in Django unchained (also iTunes)?

I am completely against outright banning pretty much anything, no matter how much it pisses me off... but seeing certain media singled out to make some bullshit point to ... hell I don't even know to who.. is crap.

 

[Waxwing]

I think this is proof we're entering a scary time in the US. Outrage culture combined with the fact that large corporations (not bound by the first amendment) rather than the government have more to do with your every day wellbeing mean that we are entering an age where free speech is functionally checked by a long list of caveats.

By all means let's get rid of the flag on government sites. The rest is bonkers.

 

[Interfectum]

Well they only did this for games on the app store

Not literature, music, art etc...

Lol

I guess games arent considered in the same ballpark?

Not yet. Games are easy to censor as not many people give a shit. I'd imagine when they start removing things like Dukes of Hazzard they'll get more traction and controversy in mainstream media.

 

[Enzom21]

And of course you run straight to making it a race issue

How is this not a race issue?

I think this is proof we're entering a scary time in this country. Outrage culture combined with the fact that large corporations (not bound by the first amendment) rather than the government have more to do with your every day wellbeing mean that we are entering an age where free speech is functionally checked by a long list of caveats.

By all means let's get rid of the flag on government sites. The rest is bonkers.

The government is not preventing people from flying their racists flags and corporations are not required to sell items like that. Apple put some of the apps back and retailers don't sell the Nazi flag and they will no longer sell this flag. There is no slippery slope. Anyone can still be a racist piece of shit if they like.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

So, how many of you folks will be trading in your censoring ass iPhones for freedom loving Android and Windows phones? I take it many here will vote with their wallets, and let Apple know that they're going too far? Maybe just complain for now?

I'm genuinely curious..

 

[bucyou55]

When something only affects minorities, of course the people who don't understand the pain will only care about their pety worthless games. Games > empathy apparently.

Using a tragedy to make a political point is disgusting.

fuck you

 

[DrROBschiz]

Not yet. Games are easy to censor as not many people give a shit. I'd imagine when they start removing things like Dukes of Hazzard they'll get more traction and controversy in mainstream media.

Yeah its kind of snowballing

I think I saw an article about Dukes being removed in a few places.

Are we going to retroactively censor old media now?

Not a fan since our history is important for education and self reflection.

Their is a difference between respectful and empathetic responses and outright blanket censorship.

 

[JDSN]

Im always amazed as a foreigner how little people understand of things like the freedom of speech and censorship. As if name-dropping dystopian books they didnt get makes their point.

 

[Pillville]

Welp, the whole thing went way too far and now I'm seeing my right wing friends on Facebook start to call out the hypocrisy and post pictures of the confederate flag cause "FREEDOM".

Nothing quite like taking your cause so far that it causes your opponent to gain momentum?

 

[PSYGN]

Well that's a knee-jerk reaction if I ever seen one.

 

[Theonik]

Im always amazed as a foreigner how little people understand of things like the freedom of speech and censorship. As if name-dropping dystopian books they didnt get makes their point.

Not all brands of dystopian literature relies on government censoship. You can make a point that civil rights like freedom of speech only apply with regards to the government and not Apple deciding what happens in their app store, however you could then consider how large corporations are getting increasingly more powerful at controlling how information gets transmitted so in a sense, Google for instance can yield almost as much power in terms of being able to enforce censorship as a government can in fact they can do more, and there is no appropriate legislation to protect people from this. That would be a different argument to have however.

 

[blu]

The flag is a race issue. But when you make civil war video games a race issue, you've lost the point. You've taken a position with tremendous support and validity (removing the confederate flag from South Carolina govt buildings), and blurred with the indefensible position of removing civil war strategy games. Only bad comes from that becasue it undermines the legitimate momentum to remove the flag from modern life.

This needs to be quoted on every new page of this thread.

 

[lefantome]

This isn't censorship because no government is forcing them to do it. The business is simply using its first amendment right to not allow any images that might damage it's brand. It is their right as a person. Yes corporations are consider people in the United States.

With that said, they are going too far, but Apple can do what they want.

Censorship doesn't necessarely involve government, Apple is an authority on the app store and has the power to censor things.

Even if it's legal is still a form of censorship.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

I think this is proof we're entering a scary time in the US. Outrage culture combined with the fact that large corporations (not bound by the first amendment) rather than the government have more to do with your every day wellbeing mean that we are entering an age where free speech is functionally checked by a long list of caveats.

By all means let's get rid of the flag on government sites. The rest is bonkers.

You just have to look at this topic alone of people defending Apple's choice.

 

[silvermember]

Using a tragedy to make a political point is disgusting.

fuck you

A lesser man would be offended by your comments but considering you are speaking out of ignorance, all I can is shake my head.

Censorship doesn't necessarely involve government, Apple is an authority on the app store and has the power to censor things.

Even if it's legal is still a form of censorship.

Censorship is only bad if the government gets involved because it takes away the choice from the individual. Apple made its own decision or choice to remove it, that is apple's right. Apple does not have to allow content it hates to be on its store.

This isn't even censorship since you can easily play the game somewhere else in a different playstore.


If you want to water down the term censorship, then go ahead.


More importantly your comments imply that your choice, is more is important than Apple's choice.

 

[Bastables]

Is Ken Burns misapprehending and misrepresenting history?



Using the flag in a historical game about the civil war is one of teh few appropriate uses for the flag, especially games about Gettysburg (which have been notably affects), because the Army of Northern Virginia was there, with their square battle flag.

edit: to be 100% clear, I agree there is a lot of misrepresentation of history around the flag, and it is inappropriate if not racist to use it in any modern context. But the rewriting/censorship of history is annoying and a bad precedent.

Yeah he is misrepresenting history, as his series was not about the USA vs Just the Northern army of Virginia and elements of the southern Navy.

 

[Mihos]

Yeah he is misrepresenting history, as his series was not about the USA vs Just the Northern army of Virginia and elements of the southern Navy.

I am OK with non accurate history stuff. I would play a mecha-hitler vs stonewall-jackson-zilla fighing game. I would expect the flags to be behind them also during character select. If you hate them, play and Ghandi-Kaiju and kick their ass

 

[Hari Seldon]

Can't wait to buy the next Apple Plebian Media Consumption Device that only shows Approved Art!