• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Clinton campaign backs intelligence briefing for electors before Dec 19th

Status
Not open for further replies.
People need to let go of the dream that this is going to change anything.

Is this going to be a theme anytime foreign states interfere in future elections in far more brazen methods? Is this going to be a recurring theme anytime Trump does something easily worthy of impeachment for any other president in the past? This immediate self-defeating attitude that Trump can't be stopped and presidential terms are written in stone?
 
Full transparency. Public press conference. All evidence released online. Nothing aside from things that would endanger agents or citizens redacted. Before the electors vote.
 
I don't think anyone should be holding out much "hope" over this, and I don't even know what would happen if the results were overturned. I'm not even sure if it would be good. But nobody should be against the electors hearing this information and discussing it, at the very least, even if it changes nothing.

And I do want some defections. There won't be 36 of them, but it should be noted for posterity and history that this election was an aberration. The electoral college map should reflect the hot mess that was this whole fucking election season.
 
Seriously what is up with this "This will cause a Civil War" talk.



Ryan.

They can basically vote any Republican in.

Not quite. The House State Delegations can only cast their vote for President from among the three options that scored the most Electoral Votes. The only way for anyone other than Trump or Clinton to win in the House is if faithless electors send some votes to another candidate. So first you'd have to have the EC give Ryan (or Kasich or whoever) a few pity votes before the House could do anything about it.
 

pigeon

Banned
I know, but I don't think they'd vote for someone who got NO votes. The base would already be mad, this would probably lead to revolt because someone like Ryan would be seen as illegitimate despite the rules having been followed.

It's actually not correct. The House is limited to the people who got the top three vote counts for President in the electoral college.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Unless the electors threw a lot of votes to Pence he wouldn't be eligible. That's why the electoral college stories keep talking about trying to identify a moderate Republican.
 

RPGCrazied

Member
Not quite. The House State Delegations can only cast their vote for President from among the three options that scored the most Electoral Votes. The only way for anyone other than Trump or Clinton to win in the House is if faithless electors send some votes to another candidate. So first you'd have to have the EC give Ryan (or Kasich or whoever) a few pity votes before the House could do anything about it.

Kasich turned. He recently said to vote for Trump, he doesn't want it. :/

Ryan it is? I'd gladly take Ryan over Trump.
 

jstripes

Banned
In the unlikely case that the electoral college goes with Clinton, imagine if the US faced a "Two Popes" kind of situation.
 
If the electors were to rebel based on a secret briefing that would cause problems.

But if the evidence is damning and made public I think most people would have no problem with the electors denying Trump 270 votes.
 
I don't think anyone should be holding out much "hope" over this, and I don't even know what would happen if the results were overturned. I'm not even sure if it would be good. But nobody should be against the electors hearing this information and discussing it, at the very least, even if it changes nothing.

And I do want some defections. There won't be 36 of them, but it should be noted for posterity and history that this election was an aberration. The electoral college map should reflect the hot mess that was this whole fucking election season.

Even if this falls apart and Trump is inaugurated as planned, if it does become clear public record that Russian interference was deliberate throughout the election it becomes a stark reminder to all that oppose his presidency that Trump has no mandate and his win* has the biggest, fattest, boldest asterisk beside it. All the more so if there's still a good - if not overturning - electoral defection. And add that to the fact that his popular vote loss was so incredible, and you have all the more cause to stand the hell up to this president.
 

pigeon

Banned
I kinda feel like the people who keep saying this actually want it to happen.

I would certainly prefer a civil war to a fascist white nationalist dictatorship. I assume you would too.

Obviously if Trump does not attempt to institute one then there's no problem.
 

Jenov

Member
I hope the Electoral College actually uses their power to change things for once. If there was ever a time for them to press the emergency button it's now. Ideally, enough would change their vote to reflect the millions in popular vote for Clinton, but that's unlikely. So next best thing would be a more moderate Republican like Kasich being chosen by congress.
 

Josh7289

Member
If there was ever a time for the Electoral College to do what they were designed to do, it would be now.
Agreed. If the Electoral College elects Trump, then they'll have failed their purpose (and actually have done exactly what they're supposed to prevent) and therefore should be abolished.

But, here's hoping they reject him.
 
Has the EC ever went to another candidate before? I can't think a time.

Yeah, in post-Civil War America, the losing candidate (Rutherford B Hayes) was elected by EC after a "special recount" of four states was decided on party lines. There were literally votes thrown in the garbage. Congress went along with it in exchange for federal troops being removed from the South, entrenching racism there for years to come.
 

GuyKazama

Member
Why not anyway? On her end, there's really nothing to lose at this point.

The integrity of the electoral process and the peaceful transition of power is a hallmark of our democracy. You toss that out the window, and you'll quickly find out how much there really is to lose, on all sides.

The idea that Russia 'altered' the election outcome is a nonsensical and unanswerable question. The hacking of the DNC and Podesta by Russia / Wikileaks was part of the campaign. Clinton brought it up all the time, even on stage in the debates. It can't be parsed from all the other events during the election season.
 

99Luffy

Banned
If theyre talking about russia hacking dnc emails and creating fake news then... I dont see what the problem is?

At this point countries hacking and spreading propaganda has become normal. The response is usually embarassment and a promise to hack back.

If theyre talking about russia hacking voting booths. Then yeah thats a problem.
 

btags

Member
I was just thinking about it and a funny thought came to my mind. I don't think the electoral college would elect someone other than Trump as president, but how funny would it be to see Trump's reaction to such an event after recently stating that he now loves the electoral college system (in complete contrast to previous statements when Obama was elected).
 
If theyre talking about russia hacking dnc emails and creating fake news then... I dont see what the problem is?

At this point hacking and spreading propaganda is normal.

If theyre talking about russia hacking voting booths. Then yeah thats a problem.

There's no problem with voters making their decision based on fake news intentionally spread by a foreign power?
 

Neoweee

Member
Has the EC ever went to another candidate before? I can't think a time.

The only time analagous to now is Bush vs. Gore.

The first time it happened, several states didn't hold votes and just assigned their electors.

Same with the second time, but only Colorado didn't have a vote to dictate their electors.

1872 was a complete burning train wreck, and while there were votes held, electors had conflicting orders, or the state results were contested, or, or, or, so they kind of winged it or did intentional BS.

2000 is analogous to the present, but kind of the opposite, with Bush generally being expected to win heading into election day, with it kind of a fluke that Gore won the popular vote on the back of an October Surprise (DUI revelation) that hurt Bush.

Comparing this year to 2000, Hillary was thought to win, still won the popular vote in agreement with nearly every single poll, but the EC parting came on the back of multiple October Surprises against her.

If theyre talking about russia hacking dnc emails and creating fake news then... I dont see what the problem is?

At this point countries hacking and spreading propaganda has become normal. The response is usually embarassment and a promise to hack back.

Multiple advisors and appointees to Trump have, in the recent past, been getting paid directly or indirectly by the Russian government. Trump has business ties to Russia. He has a weirdly pro-Russian stance completely out of line with the rest of the party. Trump asked Russia, on video, to release Hillary's emails, and that they'd be rewarded if they did so (by the media, but it sounds bad). Trump's team met with Russian representatives during the campaign. Did Trump promise anything in exchange for their help?

There's a lot to be concerned about. It is a sliver away from being worse than Watergate.
 

x3sphere

Member
On the slight chance this is successful I just can't see a civil war happening. Seems like fear monger talk to me. Trump lost the popular vote after all, so it is technically not going against the people, not to mention nearly half the country didn't vote and they probably don't care either way.
 

Amir0x

Banned
If theyre talking about russia hacking dnc emails and creating fake news then... I dont see what the problem is?

At this point countries hacking and spreading propaganda has become normal. The response is usually embarassment and a promise to hack back.

Dear God this country is so fucked. Let hellfire rain because clearly we have given up our ability to be rational actors.

"I dont see what the problem is", says man whose house is burning down around him. Smh.
 
There is an interesting prospect of telling the electors "listen, at the end of the day, you should probably vote as your state did. But some crazy shit went down during that election, and you need to know what that was to make an informed decision."

I wonder what I'd do in that situation. Though I'm in Canada, where people would likely have vote Clinton if it were a state.
 

Mr. X

Member
If there is proof and we can name people who assisted in Russia's meddling, will they be tried for treason?
 

Amir0x

Banned
If there is proof and we can name people who assisted in Russia's meddling, will they be tried for treason?
No because Republicans control everything, and they fucking despise this country. Anti-American down to their core. So they would never do it, as it would delegitimize their power.
 

GuyKazama

Member
No because Republicans control everything, and they fucking despise this country. Anti-American down to their core. So they would never do it, as it would delegitimize their power.

Fortunately, a Republican administration will have the opportunity to create a coherent cyberterrorism policy. At least now there will be some hope that we will have some defenses against these attacks in the future, or at least can trace them back.
 

jstripes

Banned
Fortunately, a Republican administration will have the opportunity to create a coherent cyberterrorism policy. At least now there will be some hope that we will have some defenses against these attacks in the future, or at least can trace them back.

Half of them don't even know how to use computers.
 
What's the point of this? The people who voted for Trump were just as susceptible to American-grown bullshit as they were Russian-imported bullshit. Unless Russia directly tampered with the results somehow or Trump and his campaign were directly coordinating with the Russian government...I don't know why it matters in the grand scheme of things other than it's good to be aware of.

This kind of outside influencing could become the norm in future elections, and I am not even sure what you could even do about it. You can't force ignorant people to be discerning. This election proved that.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Fortunately, a Republican administration will have the opportunity to create a coherent cyberterrorism policy. At least now there will be some hope that we will have some defenses against these attacks in the future, or at least can trace them back.

They've never had a coherent strategy before, except to inflame anti-American sentiment in Islamic countries - Trump being used as an ISIS rectuitment tool is the latest example - and they wont have one now that they realize they can win elections with the help of nutcase authoritarian Putin.
 

The Lamp

Member
Agreed. If the Electoral College elects Trump, then they'll have failed their purpose (and actually have done exactly what they're supposed to prevent) and therefore should be abolished.

But, here's hoping they reject him.

I need to know this to fuel discussion with Trump supporters: What evidence is there that the electoral college is SUPPOSED to prevent a Trump presidency? Any documents or statements from the founders that supports this?
 

pigeon

Banned
I need to know this to fuel discussion with Trump supporters: What evidence is there that the electoral college is SUPPOSED to prevent a Trump presidency? Any documents or statements from the founders that supports this?

federalist papers #68 (hamilton) said:
Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union? But the convention have guarded against all danger of this sort, with the most provident and judicious attention. They have not made the appointment of the President to depend on any preexisting bodies of men, who might be tampered with beforehand to prostitute their votes; but they have referred it in the first instance to an immediate act of the people of America, to be exerted in the choice of persons for the temporary and sole purpose of making the appointment. And they have excluded from eligibility to this trust, all those who from situation might be suspected of too great devotion to the President in office. No senator, representative, or other person holding a place of trust or profit under the United States, can be of the numbers of the electors. Thus without corrupting the body of the people, the immediate agents in the election will at least enter upon the task free from any sinister bias. Their transient existence, and their detached situation, already taken notice of, afford a satisfactory prospect of their continuing so, to the conclusion of it. The business of corruption, when it is to embrace so considerable a number of men, requires time as well as means. Nor would it be found easy suddenly to embark them, dispersed as they would be over thirteen States, in any combinations founded upon motives, which though they could not properly be denominated corrupt, might yet be of a nature to mislead them from their duty.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed68.asp

In reading this, it's actually kind of bizarrely specific on the issue!
 

Amir0x

Banned
Damn beaten twice. oh well, we need to echo truths among the populace now. They are not the brightest bunch.

I need to know this to fuel discussion with Trump supporters: What evidence is there that the electoral college is SUPPOSED to prevent a Trump presidency? Any documents or statements from the founders that supports this?

Hamilton from The Federalist papers. He and many other founding fathers thought only a few people would have the qualifications to handle the broad responsibilities, and that the masses may at a time choose to elect a populist tyrant:


"It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations. It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder. This evil was not least to be dreaded in the election of a magistrate, who was to have so important an agency in the administration of the government as the President of the United States. But the precautions which have been so happily concerted in the system under consideration, promise an effectual security against this mischief.


Read the entire Federalist paper here:

http://www.historycentral.com/elections/Federalist.html
 
This needs to be shopped around news outlets to get people more aware.

It has been circulated, this is where the group of faithless electors gets their name(The Hamilton electors).

Hamilton predicted someone as unqualified as Trump may come along and win an election and saw the College as a safeguard.

Sadly no one expects Republican electors to put country over their party. Not to mention most states have laws forbidding electors from changing their vote.
 
I hate the idea of the electoral college but this is legitimately their role - not to follow the votes of the public but to make an informed decision about who should be president.

The college is there to prevent a demagogue from becoming president. They ought to fulfill that duty.

My thoughts exactly. But "fulfilling duties" is not something our government is interested in, so it's not going to happen.
 

Cipherr

Member
Can't quite figure this one out. On one hand the Democrats are saying Comey handed Trump the elections. On the other hand they're blaming the Russians.

Maybe Podesta should blame his own corrupt self for a change?

It's almost like elections are effected by MULTIPLE things/variables. How bizarre.
 

btrboyev

Member
It's almost like elections are effected by MULTIPLE things/variables. How bizarre.

Also in not so sure they are unrelated. Scumbag Giuliani knew about the FBI stuff before it was even announced, and said as much on national TV.

The Trump campaign has too much evidence pointing to ties with Russia and inside people at the FBI.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom