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Colombia assassinates rebel leader, Chavez threatens war
- Thread starter Frank the Great
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Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Bezz said:
bush has been criticized to all hell.. but just because we have an asshole as our president, doesnt excuse other assholes.
Shit, they found computers in Reyes's bunker that links him to the president of Ecuador, according to Colombian press. ill update when I get more info.
Edit: Its not directly connected with the prez, but with his government, they have only started to analyze the data and when they are done "in a couple of weeks" they expect to find a lot of info of the connections of the FARC with other governments.
They also mentioned some talks between Ecuador and the Farc to solve the hostage situation and some information exchanging.
Also, the camp were they found Reyes wasnt just one of those portable huts, they had microwave ovens, PCs, guns and more stuff, I wonder why would they put such a permanent location on ecuatorian soil.
Edit: Its not directly connected with the prez, but with his government, they have only started to analyze the data and when they are done "in a couple of weeks" they expect to find a lot of info of the connections of the FARC with other governments.
They also mentioned some talks between Ecuador and the Farc to solve the hostage situation and some information exchanging.
Also, the camp were they found Reyes wasnt just one of those portable huts, they had microwave ovens, PCs, guns and more stuff, I wonder why would they put such a permanent location on ecuatorian soil.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
AmishNazi said:
Prosecuting and incarcerating people is a money-making venture now? :lol
I love how you totally dismiss market demand as a driver of drug sales while claiming to be above black-and-white thinking.
As if you haven't put your foot in your mouth enough in this thread. Carry on, Colombian dudes.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Breaking news on CNN
Ecuador's president has ordered troops to the border with Colombia, following a similar move by Venezuela.
Where is the bail out pic when you need one?
Ecuador's president has ordered troops to the border with Colombia, following a similar move by Venezuela.
Where is the bail out pic when you need one?
Justin Bailey
------ ------
Here's a clue to Ecuador and Chavezland, don't fucking support and harbor terrorists that kidnap and kill neighboring countries' citizens and your shit won't get bombed.
I'm going to make only one post in this thread, in an attempt to shed some light on Chavez's methodology and the history behind his administration. There is some serious misconceptions in this thread, complete fabrications, and so forth. I'm not a supporter of Chavez, but I do believe in recognizing the legitimacy of democratically elected governments whether they do or do not neatly fit into 'our' version of things.
Chavez attempted a military coup d'etat in 1992 against a US puppet regime that had accepted a massive IMF loan plunging millions of Venezuelans into absolute poverty. He came to power with the highest approval rating of any currently elected president on Earth. In 2002 the Bush administrated successfully backed a military coup d'etat against his legitimate government. One day later, amid the protestations of millions in Caracas, Hugo Chavez was returned to office. This overthrow was directly planned and executed with paramilitary troops from Columbia.
In 2004 Chavez was re-elected by the Venezuelan people. His administration has also survived several national referendums, forced by pressure from right-wing media and business (who are all highly anti-Chavez). The concentration of executive power that Chavez has allowed is enshrined within the Venezuelan constitution and has been envoked by 6 previous administrations. The constitution itself was ratified by the Venezuelan people in a national referendum (under the Chavez government).
Again, I think that anyone here who challenges the legitimacy of Chavez's administration is simply uneducated on the subject. Furthermore, I think suggesting that his administration has done no good is far from the truth - there are countless reports of improved living standards, improved literacy, health care, etc. in Venezuela. This isnt to say that things are peachy, but the country was an absolute mess before he came to power. Finally, I think it's important to recognize that Chavez was elected democratically, himself a simpleton, a farmer boy, TWICE. This is a kind of democracy that we ourselves do not even know.
I wont speak authoritatively on the Colombia/Venezuela clashes right now, as I don't know enough. But I do believe that the 2004 attempted coup d'etat gives this some precedent.
Chavez attempted a military coup d'etat in 1992 against a US puppet regime that had accepted a massive IMF loan plunging millions of Venezuelans into absolute poverty. He came to power with the highest approval rating of any currently elected president on Earth. In 2002 the Bush administrated successfully backed a military coup d'etat against his legitimate government. One day later, amid the protestations of millions in Caracas, Hugo Chavez was returned to office. This overthrow was directly planned and executed with paramilitary troops from Columbia.
In 2004 Chavez was re-elected by the Venezuelan people. His administration has also survived several national referendums, forced by pressure from right-wing media and business (who are all highly anti-Chavez). The concentration of executive power that Chavez has allowed is enshrined within the Venezuelan constitution and has been envoked by 6 previous administrations. The constitution itself was ratified by the Venezuelan people in a national referendum (under the Chavez government).
Again, I think that anyone here who challenges the legitimacy of Chavez's administration is simply uneducated on the subject. Furthermore, I think suggesting that his administration has done no good is far from the truth - there are countless reports of improved living standards, improved literacy, health care, etc. in Venezuela. This isnt to say that things are peachy, but the country was an absolute mess before he came to power. Finally, I think it's important to recognize that Chavez was elected democratically, himself a simpleton, a farmer boy, TWICE. This is a kind of democracy that we ourselves do not even know.
I wont speak authoritatively on the Colombia/Venezuela clashes right now, as I don't know enough. But I do believe that the 2004 attempted coup d'etat gives this some precedent.
Dies Iræ said:
I like how this post said absolutely nothing on the subject of this thread.
Anyway, this could be somewhat unprecedented, as South American history is rife with internal conflict, but not quite as much in the way of international wars.
I also like the "This is a kind of democracy that we ourselves do not even know" line since I believe you're a Canadian, and don't even have the 2000 Bush/Gore fiasco to gripe about.
AdmiralViscen said:
Billions of dollars a year, and that's just for incarcerating people. That doesn't include court cost, fines and driving privileges reinstatement.
AdmiralViscen said:
Please so me where I dismiss the market. I was just addressing the governments part in it. Whatever though nice try at piling on in a argument to win pwnage points or whatever the fuck made you decide to post this.
JDSN said:
Pictures of tortured Iraqis beg to differ. Plus meddling in other people's business by saying if we don't this or this will happen is fear mongering something I consider intellectual terrorism.
Well, it looks like I will be replying to this thread again.
There are many posts in this thread that do not directly have anything to do with the current conflict between Colombia and Venezuela. They simply moan about Chavez with little to no factual basis. My response was mostly targeting these posts - which I think its entirely fair. You may disagree, but to this point, I havent seen you begrudging anyone but myself of not commenting on the topic at hand.
Which I did, in my post, as a matter of fact. I very clearly stated that I believe this current conflict could have something to do with the very real precedent for overthrow of the Chavez regime by paramilitary forces within Colombia.
Finally, regarding the question of democracy. I think we can all agree that the fact that Chavez is a farm boy, democratically elected by internationally sanctioned elections twice over with a considerable majority from the population is much, much more democratic than having a Yale graduate, son of a former President, member of some elite secret society elected by a very slim public majority, with absolutely abysmal approval ratings. The Canadian case cannot be directly applied as parliamentary states do not directly elect their Prime Minister, which you may not know (judging by your former post).
According to Wikipedia, Chavez was born in a mud hut. During his early youth he lived in 'impoverished conditions.'
There are many posts in this thread that do not directly have anything to do with the current conflict between Colombia and Venezuela. They simply moan about Chavez with little to no factual basis. My response was mostly targeting these posts - which I think its entirely fair. You may disagree, but to this point, I havent seen you begrudging anyone but myself of not commenting on the topic at hand.
Which I did, in my post, as a matter of fact. I very clearly stated that I believe this current conflict could have something to do with the very real precedent for overthrow of the Chavez regime by paramilitary forces within Colombia.
Finally, regarding the question of democracy. I think we can all agree that the fact that Chavez is a farm boy, democratically elected by internationally sanctioned elections twice over with a considerable majority from the population is much, much more democratic than having a Yale graduate, son of a former President, member of some elite secret society elected by a very slim public majority, with absolutely abysmal approval ratings. The Canadian case cannot be directly applied as parliamentary states do not directly elect their Prime Minister, which you may not know (judging by your former post).
avatar299 said:
According to Wikipedia, Chavez was born in a mud hut. During his early youth he lived in 'impoverished conditions.'
It's much more than a "Chavez" thing. Venezuela and Columbia have never gotten along, having been at the border several times I can attest it's very tense even at times of peace. There's plenty of blame on both sides even before the Chavez took power. So this is just the fruition of letting it go bad. I'm not surprised that it happened. Already things are tense and then a flailing leader and Colombia closing down on FARC. Really Chavez is a little bit of the whole situation and it might've happened in the same situation with a different leader.
Frank the Great
Banned
what the fuck does chavez once being a poor farm boy have to do with anything?
The fact that he was elected democratically by internationally sanctioned elections. The fact that despite this fact he's painted as a dictator, and will never give up his post EVEN though he hasn't served the remainder of his final term yet. It's BS propaganda saber rattling, and the sad fact is people buy it wholesale.
Oh and Putin / Russia is much more of a dictator / fascist state than Chavez could ever hope to be.
Oh and Putin / Russia is much more of a dictator / fascist state than Chavez could ever hope to be.
Dies Iræ said:
Thank you for educating me on the Canadian parliamentary system. :lol
You said "we ourselves", so if the Canadian case cannot be applied, you only have yourself to blame for making such a silly comment/comparison.
Double :lol at the "elite secret society" comment as well.
Francois the Great said:
'cuz he's like a man of teh people or something. Apparently farming legitimizes one's claim to democracy.
Justin Bailey
------ ------
The Chavez brigade has gotten weaker man. They now seem to start off by saying some variant of "I'm no Chavez supporter, but. . ." At least fortified_concept had the balls to admit it.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Dies Iræ said:
and was chavez a poor farm guy while campaigning for presidency? i really dont see how his poor past has anything to do with democracy.
Karakand said:
I know you are being partially facetious, but you are right that there is a large contigent of America that will seek to quell ANY socialist aggression. Fortunately, most are the 30 percenters that stuck with Bush the past few years.
I was someone who initially supported the Iraq war, but Chavez can control the entire southern tip of S America for all I care. As long as he isn't practicing genocide on his people, he can do whatever he wants down there. No concern of ours.
America needs to focus on protecting it's assets in Iraq (and stabilizing the government), improve the relationship with Iran (at least to where it is neutral) and stay out of conflict everywhere else in the world for the next decade.
Boogie said:
Firstly, I see little merit to making arguments of semantics rather than substance. But, for the sake of humor, I will rebut. I was speaking of "we ourselves" in the case of Americans because I assume, as I think most people here do, that the majority of the users are American. I never made a comparison of the Canadian case. In fact, I stated that no proper comparison could be made.
The "elite secret society" comment is well grounded. I thought it was commonly known that Bush is a member of the Skull and Bones secret society. He himself has been quoted as saying the dealings of that society were 'too secret to speak of.' Check out its other members, John Kerry being a recent example.
I never made a direct connection between an acting state's claim to democracy and the fact that someone was a farmer. You're simply being obtuse. I made the argument that Chavez comes from very humble roots, the same as the people who elected him. This is rarely, if ever, the case in Canada and the States. Our leaders come from elite segments of society. This is the 'democratic difference.' It has nothing to do with an acting government's claim to democracy.
Justin Bailey said:
I've gone on record in previous posts over the months as someone who does not necessarily support the Chavez regime. Most of my time regarding his administration has been spent debunking the absolute torrent of disinformation surrounding it in Western circles. I could take some time to dig up a quote to substantiate this claim, but I see no reason to put any more effort into responding to your baseless accusation than you put into making it.
Getting more interesting.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/02/chavez.colombia/index.html
Here's what the BBC has which brings up something I haven't read in the US or Latin American News.
This story gets more interesting by the minute.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/02/chavez.colombia/index.html
Here's what the BBC has which brings up something I haven't read in the US or Latin American News.
This story gets more interesting by the minute.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Dies Iræ said:
No, I don't think this is true. Chretien was hardly a member of any elite segment of society, and he went on to become one of the longest serving Prime Ministers in recent history.
TheRipDizz
Banned
Conspiracy theories, FUCK YEAH!! Preach on brotha!AmishNazi said:
There's a reason most people don't think like you. It's called sanity and they possess it.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
thefit said:
Not. Good.
speculawyer
Member
Now that is democracy!NextGenitals said:
{Mike} said:
Better ban bet is whether Chavez will step down at the end of his final term according to the constitution he helped pass.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/w...r=2&ex=1354338000&en=e738c35070df818c&ei=5088
A true dictator would of NEVER let that be defeated.
TheRipDizz
Banned
I dunno. Lines of thought like the one you have just rub the wrong way. There's a myriad of reasons why attitudes towards drugs and laws set up for them are the way they are in this country.AmishNazi said:
Basically to come to your conclusion about the US government's attitude and strategy towards drugs you need to start with the premise that the people who run the US goverment are evil as fuck from top to bottom, administration in, administration out, and work your way down from there. It is your opinion granted, but to suggest that most people don't see this because they are ignorant/brainwashed by biased press is beyond condenscending and haughty. Most people don't agree with your views on the drug situation because they aren't starting from the above premise. It's really as easy to explain as that.
TheRipDizz said:
I'm not saying they're evil. I'm just saying they're human. I don't start with this thought that governments are infallible or always have my best interest in mine when it comes to decisions. Thing is that drugs make the government a lot of money when it comes to enforcing the laws for them. It also puts a lot of money in the economy, has created a lot of jobs and a whole industry that exists to warehouse people. This is a very hard thing to reform.
More lenient on drug crimes and you lose fines, court costs, drivers license reinstatement fess. Local economies suffer because less guards are needed. Less probation and parole officers are needed. It really is a multi billion dollar a year industry and puts a lot of money into the economy and makes it a very hard pill for politicians to push.
Ugh if Bush fucked this up for me with his fucking 8 years of idiocy / lunacy I SWEAR TO GOD I will make sure I malign his name until the day I die.ToxicAdam said:
I might (MIGHT) even build a museum to accomplish this goal (assuming I become independently wealthy at some point in my wretched existence).
AndersTheSwede
Member
AmishNazi said:
Your whole argument falls apart in the face of the fact that they would earn more money through legalization and subsequent taxation.
The reason its still illegal isn't some dastardly lobby, its simply that the majority of Americans want drugs to be illegal. That this benefits the prison system is tangential, not causal.
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