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[kame-sennin]

Your whole argument falls apart in the face of the fact that they would earn more money through legalization and subsequent taxation.

I don't think that statement has any truth to it. Perhaps it varies drug by drug, but substances like marijuana can't reasonably be taxed when they can be grown almost anywhere. As for Cocaine, legalizing it is unlikely to stop the trade lines used to get it here illegally, making it hard to tax as well. Furthermore, even if the government was capable of taxing these drugs, there's no fucking way that said revenue stream could compete with the massive intake of the prison industrial system. And finally, it's not the government that's trying to earn money. Raising taxes doesn't (generally) put more money in politician's pockets. If we legalized drugs, it would add tax revenue, but said revenue would come at the expense of prison contractors and pharmaceutical companies - two incredibly powerful lobbies. Pharma doesn't want to compete with cocaine and marijuana which are easily grown, and more importantly, not patented. And prison contractors don't want to lose out on lucrative contracts which are the direct result of harsh drug laws which bloat the prison population. So even if taxation could provide more money, it would be money going to different people. And the lobbyists for big pharma and the prison industrial complex are not going to let that happen.

 

[Okin]

I'm not saying they're evil. I'm just saying they're human. I don't start with this thought that governments are infallible or always have my best interest in mine when it comes to decisions. Thing is that drugs make the government a lot of money when it comes to enforcing the laws for them. It also puts a lot of money in the economy, has created a lot of jobs and a whole industry that exists to warehouse people. This is a very hard thing to reform.

More lenient on drug crimes and you lose fines, court costs, drivers license reinstatement fess. Local economies suffer because less guards are needed. Less probation and parole officers are needed. It really is a multi billion dollar a year industry and puts a lot of money into the economy and makes it a very hard pill for politicians to push.

You need to take an economy class, because what you're saying makes no sense. You're basically suggesting that people are (secretly) pulling strings in the gov't and getting rich off of driver's license fees and drug fines.

Even if lots of people were making mad money off of impoverished drug abusers, all of the stuff you listed combined is a fart in the wind compared to the money made by taxing cigarettes and alcohol, the two biggest legalized drugs in the US.

EDIT: Same goes for you, kame-sennin. You're saying that drugs are illegal because the pharmaceutical companies don't want to compete with marijuana and such. They're not competing with them now! Marijuana is completely irrelevant to the pharmaceutical industry. It's like arguing that they're competing with beer.

There isn't some secret lobby of prison wardens pulling the strings in legislature. This is all really stupid poorly thought out conspiracy bullshit.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

I don't think that statement has any truth to it. Perhaps it varies drug by drug, but substances like marijuana can't reasonably be taxed when they can be grown almost anywhere.

Gov can tax whatever it wants. All it requires is a special amendment to the tax laws. Of course people who grow it on their own wouldn't be taxed, but the vast majority of the populace wouldn't.

As for Cocaine, legalizing it is unlikely to stop the trade lines used to get it here illegally, making it hard to tax as well.

If it was legalized (which, unlike Marijuana, it never would so this is hypothetical), then proper routes of trade would be set up to cut out the black market. This is the whole point of legalization in the first place, the elimination of the black market.

Furthermore, even if the government was capable of taxing these drugs, there's no fucking way that said revenue stream could compete with the massive intake of the prison industrial system.

Oh really? Marijuana is already one of the largest cash crops in the nation, taxation of that would dwarf even alcohol and tobacco which are already far and beyond the "revenue" of the prison system. And this notion of massive revenue generating from the prison industry is a fallacy. Current drug policy only drives jobs to the industry, but the funding of the prison system is a massive drain in resources on both state and federal levels. There is no money actually being generating from this industry, it suckles at the teat of the gov. And while the prison lobby would surely like to keep suckling, there are even more powerful lobbies in gov that would rather that money go to them (defense, healthcare etc.).

And finally, it's not the government that's trying to earn money. Raising taxes doesn't (generally) put more money in politician's pockets. If we legalized drugs, it would add tax revenue, but said revenue would come at the expense of prison contractors and pharmaceutical companies - two incredibly powerful lobbies. Pharma doesn't want to compete with cocaine and marijuana which are easily grown, and more importantly, not patented. And prison contractors don't want to lose out on lucrative contracts which are the direct result of harsh drug laws which bloat the prison population. So even if taxation could provide more money, it would be money going to different people. And the lobbyists for big pharma and the prison industrial complex are not going to let that happen.

Pharma doesn't have to compete with marijuana anymore than they compete with alcohol or tobacco. They would simply market their drugs as medicine and pot as just a recreational drug. And again your attributing otherworldly powers to the prison lobby that are disproportionate to their real power in gov when compared to others.

The drug war is a huge, massive drain in resources on the government, and while a select number of industries benefit they hardly have to power to keep the current policy all on their own.

 

[AmishNazi]

You need to take an economy class, because what you're saying makes no sense. You're basically suggesting that people are (secretly) pulling strings in the gov't and getting rich off of driver's license fees and drug fines.

That's why so many cars get sold at sheriff's auctions. That's why it cost almost half a grand to get your license reinstated after OVI / DUI whatever your state calls it. That's why they can keep all cash that they find in a drug bust. You need to pay attention to your newspaper.

Even if lots of people were making mad money off of impoverished drug abusers, all of the stuff you listed combined is a fart in the wind compared to the money made by taxing cigarettes and alcohol, the two biggest legalized drugs in the US.

Government really hates to appear hypocritical. After almost half a century of demonizing a drug that is less harmful to your body than alcohol it might make people think what else have they been stubbornly wrong about.

EDIT: Same goes for you, kame-sennin. You're saying that drugs are illegal because the pharmaceutical companies don't want to compete with marijuana and such. They're not competing with them now! Marijuana is completely irrelevant to the pharmaceutical industry. It's like arguing that they're competing with beer.

There isn't some secret lobby of prison wardens pulling the strings in legislature. This is all really stupid poorly thought out conspiracy bullshit.

I don't buy the pharmaceutical lobby bit, but since a lot of prisons have been privatized and a lot more are following suit I can see that being one hell of a lobby.

 

[lastendconductor]

While I find Chavez way too fanatical, at least he's standing up against the puppetmaster that's been fucking South America badly for so long. Can't say the same about Colombia...

And wanting to kill elected leaders from foreing countries because they don't fit your political views... wow, you americans are something.

 

[fortified_concept]

fortified_concept is banned I think.

I'm here. I'm just getting bored explaining the same things to people who through media brainwashing have made up their minds. I'll agree with that post instead:

While I find Chavez way too fanatical, at least he's standing up against the puppetmaster that's been fucking South America badly for so long. Can't say the same about Colombia...

And wanting to kill elected leaders from foreing countries because they don't fit your political views... wow, you americans are something.

 

[Boogie]

No, I don't think this is true. Chretien was hardly a member of any elite segment of society, and he went on to become one of the longest serving Prime Ministers in recent history.

hey, stop being "obtuse".

 

[Particle Physicist]

And wanting to kill elected leaders from foreing countries because they don't fit your political views... wow, you americans are something.

why are you assuming he's american? and even if he was, thats one person. please dont lump everyone together because of the actions/words of one. thats straight up ignorant stereotyping.

 

[lastendconductor]

why are you assuming he's american? and even if he was, thats one person. please dont lump everyone together because of the actions/words of one. thats straight up ignorant stereotyping.

Yeah of course not all americans are like that, but that's the general attitude of the U.S. government (and that stems from a good share of their citizens obviously). "Our is the only right way... you don't like that? you deserve to be shot in the face"

 

[Particle Physicist]

Yeah of course not all americans are like that, but that's the general attitude of the U.S. government (and that stems from a good share of their citizens obviously). "Our is the only right way... you don't like that? you deserve to be shot in the face"

how many americans have you actually met?

 

[AmishNazi]

how many americans have you actually met?

*points @ teh internets

He's met a lot.

 

[Limedust]

... the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC...

Eh?

 

[Justin Bailey]

Eh?

Spanish acronym (Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia–Ejército del Pueblo)

 

[Nicodimas]

Our is the only right way... you don't like that? you deserve to be shot in the face

Just remember kids when you come to America for the first time you are asked a series of questions and if you fail one...BAM to the face.

 

[lastendconductor]

how many americans have you actually met?

A few. And I agree that not all americans are so obnoxious. What was your point again? are you really saying that attitude has not the america fuck yeah seal all over it? c'mon.

Just remember kids when you come to America for the first time you are asked a series of questions and if you fail one...BAM to the face.

That's not what I said.

 

[Nicodimas]

are you really saying that attitude has not the america fuck yeah seal all over it? c'mon

...I am sure it is not..:lol

 

[jmdajr]

the world is great

 

[JDSN]

I dont like Bush either (OMG A COLOMBIAN THAT HATES BUSH TEH TRAITOR!), but supporting a guy like Chavez only because he is against him really shows how conformist some of you are. Bush has effectively ruined his own country, Uribe has links to paramilitarism, Chavez has links to the FARC, the FARC kidnaps and kills peoples (which apparently doesnt count as terrorism, even tho France disagrees), the Paramilitars kill everyone that contributes to FARC even tho some of that people are forced to do so.

I dont agree with the views of anyone, but the pro-Chavez crowd really need to see that while Chavez has done good things for its country (tho I disagree with that too), he is not exactly the messiah that came to free us from evil, especially when he is with the people that has been killing us for the last 40 years and will starve his own people to death if he decides to take this situation to the next level (guess who is one of the biggest food suppliers of Venezuela?). But hey, what does this biased puppet knows, right?

 

[Matt_C]

Why doesn't South America resolve things via UN proxy or something like that? I am sure Panama can have some insight on the situation or something but I have a funny feeling if it comes out into the UN, the United States wouldn't want it's dirty laundry to come about.

 

[Tamanon]

Why doesn't South America resolve things via UN proxy or something like that? I am sure Panama can have some insight on the situation or something but I have a funny feeling if it comes out into the UN, the United States wouldn't want it's dirty laundry to come about.

Actually I'm pretty sure the UN has its own fair share of "dirty laundry" with regards to this situation

 

[Tyrannical]

So, brazil being south of Venezula with roughly ten times the population, what's their take on this? Are they not a major player in regional politics?

 

[avatar299]

I never made a direct connection between an acting state's claim to democracy and the fact that someone was a farmer. You're simply being obtuse. I made the argument that Chavez comes from very humble roots, the same as the people who elected him. This is rarely, if ever, the case in Canada and the States. Our leaders come from elite segments of society. This is the 'democratic difference.' It has nothing to do with an acting government's claim to democracy.

That is such bullshit. George W bush is not the defacto president. There is nothing holding people back from becoming president in this country.

When Chavez dies(becuase he will never leave. Hooray fro democracy) the next president will be from the elitie of their society, not a farmboy.

 

[ilbambino]

The colombian government won't movilize troops towards the borders with ecuador and venezuela. It'll be announced in a few minutes.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I'm going to make only one post in this thread, in an attempt to shed some light on Chavez's methodology and the history behind his administration. There is some serious misconceptions in this thread, complete fabrications, and so forth. I'm not a supporter of Chavez, but I do believe in recognizing the legitimacy of democratically elected governments whether they do or do not neatly fit into 'our' version of things.

Chavez attempted a military coup d'etat in 1992 against a US puppet regime that had accepted a massive IMF loan plunging millions of Venezuelans into absolute poverty. He came to power with the highest approval rating of any currently elected president on Earth. In 2002 the Bush administrated successfully backed a military coup d'etat against his legitimate government. One day later, amid the protestations of millions in Caracas, Hugo Chavez was returned to office. This overthrow was directly planned and executed with paramilitary troops from Columbia.

In 2004 Chavez was re-elected by the Venezuelan people. His administration has also survived several national referendums, forced by pressure from right-wing media and business (who are all highly anti-Chavez). The concentration of executive power that Chavez has allowed is enshrined within the Venezuelan constitution and has been envoked by 6 previous administrations. The constitution itself was ratified by the Venezuelan people in a national referendum (under the Chavez government).

Again, I think that anyone here who challenges the legitimacy of Chavez's administration is simply uneducated on the subject. Furthermore, I think suggesting that his administration has done no good is far from the truth - there are countless reports of improved living standards, improved literacy, health care, etc. in Venezuela. This isnt to say that things are peachy, but the country was an absolute mess before he came to power. Finally, I think it's important to recognize that Chavez was elected democratically, himself a simpleton, a farmer boy, TWICE. This is a kind of democracy that we ourselves do not even know.

I wont speak authoritatively on the Colombia/Venezuela clashes right now, as I don't know enough. But I do believe that the 2004 attempted coup d'etat gives this some precedent.

I love when people talk about the Venezuelan Constitution like it means something.

A Constitution is enforced by the courts, and is only as good as those courts.

Everybody seems to forget that Chavez completely took over the Courts in 2004 by diluting any dissenting judgments when his govenment suddenly and unilaterally expanded the Venezuelan Supreme Court from 20 to 32 members by adding 12 of his own hand-picked judges, without even letting the political opposition know their names in advance, (a real nice touch...yeah, he's no dictator!)

Then Chaves added five more hand-picked lackeys to replace five that saw the writing on the wall and got out while they still could, making the number of judges he hand-picked 17 of 32. And then of course, he named 32 more hand-picked "reserve" judges as a thinly-veiled threat to anyone in the office that they can and will be replaced on a moment's notice.

He got all this done in less than seven months.

"Five years ago, President Chávez’s supporters helped to enshrine the principle of judicial independence in a new democratic constitution. Now, by packing the country’s highest court, they are betraying that principle and degrading Venezuelan democracy."

“President Chávez and his supporters should be taking steps to strengthen the judiciary, Instead, they are rigging the system to favor their own interests.”

-José Miguel Vivanco, executive director of the Americas Division at Human Rights Watch

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/14/venezu9864.htm

Everyone should have dropped the "Bu-bu-bu, the CONSTITUTION!" talking-point back in 2004. A Constitution is just a piece of paper without the Courts having the strength and independence to back it up. Venezuela's courts do not have any independence.

 

[JDSN]

The docs are extremely detailed and so far specifically mention the governments of Ecuador and Venezuela, all the data will be sent to the international community and more about them will be revealed shorty.

Edit: Yeah, Reyes's docs, they are being sent to everyone so they can verify they are real.

 

[Tamanon]

The docs are extremely detailed and so far specifically mention the governments of Ecuador and Venezuela, all the data will be sent to the international community and more about them will be revealed shorty.

You mean the docs that Colombia recovered from Reyes' computers? Oh shit if they implicate Venezuela also.

 

[Diatribe1974]

Your avatar. It looks vaguely familiar.

 

[JDSN]

The docs are out, there are pics, letters of top people from the FARC to Chavez were they promise collaboration in terms of geographical knowledge of the area in case shit hits the fan (the word "alliance" is said several times), drugs shipments to Mexico and some stuff about uranium that I missed.

Ill update when its over.

Edit: Sorry, they are not out, they were shown in the conference but not published.

-Chavez gave 300 millions US to the FARC.
-Talks about 50Kgs of uranium, they cant tell the current location but they say that the FARC just became a menace for the whole continent.
-Pics of Raul Reyes partying and a tour of the bunker, which has a nursery, armory (with RPGs, AKs, M60s and mortars), tools to make guns and more stuff, they imply that there is something really fishy about such a permanent facility on Ecuatorian soil. They havent identified anyone in the pics, but they expect to do so soon.
-1/3 PCs analyzed.
-Some docs mention Nicaragua's president, but those dont link him to the FARC.
-Complot to take down Colombia's government, people inside might be involved.
-Reyes was the pillar of the executive side of the FARC.
-Links with some minister from Venezuela in which he refers to the farc as "comrades".
-Some talks about solving the hostage situation.
-Docs will be sent to the OAS, no mentions of other organization getting the data.
-Colombia will act as carefully as they can to avoid conflict, even tho the terrorists are getting ready for it.

 

[Justin Bailey]

The docs are out, there are pics, letters of top people from the FARC to Chavez were they promise collaboration in terms of geographical knowledge of the area in case shit hits the fan (the word "alliance" is said several times), drugs shipments to mexico and some stuff about uranium that I missed.

Ill update when its over.

Can you link to the docs?

Edit: Oh snap. Shit's about to drop.

 

[MiamiWesker]

I dont like Bush either (OMG A COLOMBIAN THAT HATES BUSH TEH TRAITOR!), but supporting a guy like Chavez only because is against him really shows how conformist some of you are. Bush has effectively ruined his own country, Uribe has links to paramilitarism, Chavez has links to the FARC, the FARC kidnaps and kills peoples (which apparently doesnt count as terrorism, even tho France disagrees), the Paramilitars kill everyone that contributes to FARC even tho some of that people are forced to do so.

I dont agree with the views of anyone, but the pro-Chavez crowd really need to see that while Chavez has done good things for its country (tho I disagree with that too), he is not exactly the messiah that came to free us from evil, especially when he is with the people that has been killing us for the last 40 years and will starve his own people to death if he decides to take this situation to the next level (guess who is one of the biggest food suppliers of Venezuela?). But hey, what does this biased puppet knows, right?

Same crap happend in the Castro thread, its sad really.

 

[mre]

The docs are out, there are pics, letters of top people from the FARC to Chavez were they promise collaboration in terms of geographical knowledge of the area in case shit hits the fan (the word "alliance" is said several times), drugs shipments to Mexico and some stuff about uranium that I missed.

Ill update when its over.

Edit: Sorry, they are not out, they were shown in the conference but not published.

-Financial links between Venezuela and the FARC.
-Talks about 50Kgs of uranium, they cant tell the current location but they imply that the FARC just because a menace for the whole continent.
-Pics of Raul Reyes partying and a tour of the bunker, which has a nursery, armory and all kinds of stuff, they imply that there is something really fishy about such a permanent facility on Ecuatorian soil. They havent identified anyone in the pics, but they expect to do so soon.
-1/3 PCs analyzed.
-Some docs mention Nicaragua's president, but those dont link him to the FARC.
-Complot to take down Colombia's government, people inside might be involved.
-Reyes was the pillar of the executive side of the FARC.
-Links with some minister from Venezuela in which he refers to the farc as "comrades".
-Some talks about solving the hostage situation.
-Docs will be sent to the OAS, no mentions of other organization getting the data.

Holy crap the CIA has been busy! [/ Inevitable conspiracy theory nut response]

 

[JDSN]

Thats all I remember, ill update at 6:00PM or when shit hits the fan, the president hasn't commented on anything yet, he probably will tonight.

 

[TheRipDizz]

I'm not saying they're evil. I'm just saying they're human. I don't start with this thought that governments are infallible or always have my best interest in mine when it comes to decisions. Thing is that drugs make the government a lot of money when it comes to enforcing the laws for them. It also puts a lot of money in the economy, has created a lot of jobs and a whole industry that exists to warehouse people. This is a very hard thing to reform.

More lenient on drug crimes and you lose fines, court costs, drivers license reinstatement fess. Local economies suffer because less guards are needed. Less probation and parole officers are needed. It really is a multi billion dollar a year industry and puts a lot of money into the economy and makes it a very hard pill for politicians to push.

Eh, that boarders on the line of BS. It doesn't quite work that way. The government is working with a finite amount of money. If the money wasn't spent there it would be spent somewhere else. They're not of the saving money persuasion if you haven't noticed. They don't need excuses to spen our money. If it frees up in one segment, there are fifteen others waiting to claim it.

 

[nelsonroyale]

I dont like Bush either (OMG A COLOMBIAN THAT HATES BUSH TEH TRAITOR!), but supporting a guy like Chavez only because he is against him really shows how conformist some of you are. Bush has effectively ruined his own country, Uribe has links to paramilitarism, Chavez has links to the FARC, the FARC kidnaps and kills peoples (which apparently doesnt count as terrorism, even tho France disagrees), the Paramilitars kill everyone that contributes to FARC even tho some of that people are forced to do so.

I dont agree with the views of anyone, but the pro-Chavez crowd really need to see that while Chavez has done good things for its country (tho I disagree with that too), he is not exactly the messiah that came to free us from evil, especially when he is with the people that has been killing us for the last 40 years and will starve his own people to death if he decides to take this situation to the next level (guess who is one of the biggest food suppliers of Venezuela?). But hey, what does this biased puppet knows, right?

I dunno man you assume a motivation...provide a stereotype..seems pretty weak

From personal experience, though, people from the US have definitely been some of the least informed people I've met on internation politics and relations, neogaf only reinforces this

 

[nelsonroyale]

Holy crap the CIA has been busy! [/ Inevitable conspiracy theory nut response]

dude, I've studied US intelligence somewhat...the CIA does not have a base line...seriously...

Of course they are involved with the columbia-Venezuela issue...its involved with US foreign policy, plus Colombia is prob the US's closest allie in latin america

 

[megateto]

JDSN, that stuff looks straight out a Tom Clancy novel.

 

[Pneuzy]

How is this an assassination? He was killed in a bombing run or something, not assassinated.

 

[Tamanon]

dude, I've studied US intelligence somewhat...the CIA does not have a base line...seriously...

Of course they are involved with the columbia-Venezuela issue...its involved with US foreign policy, plus Colombia is prob the US's closest allie in latin america

I doubt the CIA is too involved in there, they've been toothless ever since the whole Hanssen deal. Basically they really don't do much actual spy work anymore.

 

[Particle Physicist]

A few. And I agree that not all americans are so obnoxious. What was your point again? are you really saying that attitude has not the america fuck yeah seal all over it? c'mon.

That's not what I said.

my point was that you lumped in all americans togther for something one person said in this thread:

"And wanting to kill elected leaders from foreing countries because they don't fit your political views... wow, you americans are something."


do you even know if the guy who said it is american, or were you assuming?

and no, its not an america fuck yeah attitude, its a fuckwad aggressive attitude that people from every country have.

 

[Archer]

First war to be broadcasted in HD?

Wait for Mercenaries 2. You'll have your HD war.

 

[Scalemail Ted]

I'll be keeping my eye on this thread for future updates from JSDN.

Just bookmarking until then.

 

[newsguy]

Wait for Mercenaries 2. You'll have your HD war.

:lol Imagine after all the delays they don't allow the release since it's based in Venezuela.

 

[JDSN]

Ok, it was Chavez that gave the 300 mil dollars to the FARC.

Edit:

Pics of the document, that one describes the weaponry of one of the installations.

 

[Tamanon]

Ok, it was Chavez that gave the 300 mil dollars to the FARC.

If true, well, at least we'll be lowering our troop levels in Iraq.....

 

[Lost Fragment]

-Talks about 50Kgs of uranium,

wut

 

[SpeedySwaf]

So, if the information is legit, what would it mean for Ecuador and Venezuela?

 

[AndersTheSwede]

-Talks about 50Kgs of uranium,

If this is in any way substantiated... then the cavalry will be arriving directly from on north.

 

[Frank the Great]

Your avatar. It looks vaguely familiar.

lol, if i had seen your avatar before going through the trouble of making mine, it would've saved me a lot of trouble (took me forever to find the right gif, and then i had to resize it)

 

[Lost Fragment]

Is there any particular reason why the MSM is totally ignoring this? Seems like every news channel should be covering something like this.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

Is there any particular reason why the MSM is totally ignoring this? Seems like every news channel should be covering something like this.

Uh, its the 2nd most viewed article on CNN.com