Wolvesinthebathroom
Member
I have a group of unreliable gamer friends so I'm down to do raids with xbox one destiny gaf.
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Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.
- Thread starter sjay1994
- Start date
Hmm.
Welp. That's not encouraging.
Kssio_Aug
Member
If people complaining about the difficult could be the problem, they still could have a matchmaking system, and when the guy try to join it by there they could put a message "this mode requires large ammount of communication and blablabla... Are you sure you want to continue?" X for Yes, O for No. Simple as that!
The Lamonster
Member
What's the story here?
You act as if any people actually read the disclaimers at all.
I hope Bungie will show some footage of high-level characters soon. I am honestly having trouble thinking about how varied they can make combat from what we have seen and know about the classes in Destiny. Are they going to give us more abilities that allow for things like kiting, controlling aggro, nerfing enemies, buffing allies, applying ailments to enemies, etc. I feel like something Warframe REALLY gets right are the Warframes. There are so many and they have so many roles. Some are insane at crowd control. Some are great at buffing allies or nerfing enemies. Others can apply some useful ailments on enemies or tank like crazy.
I guess what I'm saying is, if Destiny is going to accomplish what they are hoping for, then the way combat works is going to have to drastically change at a higher level. It can't just be about getting guns that do higher damage and and armor that protects you better. The weapons having some rather unique perks is encouraging. But I am hopeful that they will allow for more diverse roles.
I guess what I'm saying is, if Destiny is going to accomplish what they are hoping for, then the way combat works is going to have to drastically change at a higher level. It can't just be about getting guns that do higher damage and and armor that protects you better. The weapons having some rather unique perks is encouraging. But I am hopeful that they will allow for more diverse roles.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
The notion of random players are automatically less skilled than the ones in your FL or GAF is laughable.
I've met many new friends and very skilled players playing Mass Effect 3 MP, for example.
I've met many new friends and very skilled players playing Mass Effect 3 MP, for example.
That's assuming that most people read disclaimers. They don't, if ya ask me.
Kssio_Aug
Member
If they cant read a message at their face when trying to join a match, then they cant even complain about it. But Im sure that after several attempts everyone would end up reading it somehow.
As I mentioned before, the second subclasses change quite a bit around, especially since they're support driven for Warlock and Titan.
This right here. I've met some of the best/coolest people I've ever played with randomly in WoW and other games.
I had that in mind when writing that. Some of the things that I worry about are things like movement, crowd control, and aggro control. We have yet to really see anything that shows Destiny has much there. We're a little short of a month till release and I feel like they really should start to make this part of the game more clear. There isn't any signs of movement that will help you avoid damage, just traverse better. There isn't anything that shows you'll be able to crowd control or aggro control. The same goes for ailments. We saw some details with buffing on the other Warlock class' super. Now we can all say "I guess we'll find out when the game is out", but I feel like it would be best for Bungie to start showing some more details about that aspect. I feel like they don't want to get too geeky with the numbers because it will scare off the casual shooter fan, but that's an important part of the game.
So you add the good people you play with in strikes, pvp, and nightfall to your friends list and then raid with them. Use the other game modes to find your raiding buddies.
Dalibor_San
Member
This kind of sucks...I understand the logic behind this decision, however if people want to play with randoms...I say let them.
I mean I personally will have a hard time with this, all my friends either don't game(beside IOS/Android) or those that do are PC gamers.
I know this is GAF and you can organize a group easy, however Im one of those that don't like using MIC,never did even in team oriented games like CS/BF etc.
I play smart but cant stand talking its kind of a shame, I need to get into it one day I guess.
I mean I personally will have a hard time with this, all my friends either don't game(beside IOS/Android) or those that do are PC gamers.
I know this is GAF and you can organize a group easy, however Im one of those that don't like using MIC,never did even in team oriented games like CS/BF etc.
I play smart but cant stand talking its kind of a shame, I need to get into it one day I guess.
KillerDark
Member
That doesn't mean it was a good system.
Jest Chillin
Member
It doesn't matter if they read it or not. People tend to prefer to blame others rather than acknowledge that they weren't ready or made mistakes.
The people who are saying that players will complain if they fail too much are making that comment, they're not making an assumption. This is literally what has happened many, many times over in many, many MMO's before this. The majority of people will blame others for not being good enough, not being geared properly, making mistakes or blame the design of the encounter well before they will ever admit that they themselves did something wrong. It's just like how people will call a game bad rather than admit that it's just not for them. Or blame lag/latency/unresponsive buttons when they die in a game.
Not every single person will react that way of course. However people who have a negative opinion of something tend to want to shout it from the rooftops. Loudly and often.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Its not aabout skill, its the heavy teamwork requirement. You need to do more then just communicate, you need to understand and trust eachother. Follow a leaders direction at least until you have a full understanding of the raid and can operate on your own. Matchmaking just wouldnt work for this. Iv'e spent long hellish hours trying to complete SWTOR raids with pugs. After 50 wipes you realize its clan or bust for that mode.
lerontonge
Neo Member
I'm clearly going to need 'friends' for raids.... my gamer tag: L33HDX
Twilight Gap
Member
I will say though that mulling it over, I tend to agree that it is seems like a short-sighted idea. To overwrite any earlier posts, I would not be against a matchmaking option entirely. The benefits are fairly obvious, and if you have the patience and luck to Raid with inexperienced players, then more power to you I suppose. I personally think it's wiser (not necessarily easier) to scout out like-minded individuals than to take chances and fail or be frustrated, but that's just me. But the loss of the option entirely is a puzzling decision without knowing the reasoning behind it.
That aside, I don't think matchmaking for Raids should function like it does in the other modes if it were included. I feel that if you were able to simply spend a couple minutes waiting for players and then head into a Raid, many of the concerns already posted will be realized. The experience may end up sour more often than not, especially if it requires such a personal and cooperative commitment, and I'd rather not see Destiny go through what often ruins online communities in these games. I'm sure Bungie in part wanted to avoid this as well considering the rowdiness of their Halo community. However, their decision to rule it out entirely, along with voice communication and no apparent in-game clan list, is again "weird" and is what has me more puzzled.
Watching Max Hoberman talk about his challenges when designing the original Halo matchmaking during the HMCC panel was sort of eye-opening. They built things like in-game friend's lists and automatic playlists from the ground up without much prior reference and it hit off. In many ways, they're responsible for pioneering the system, so it is my personal expectation at least to see a similarly innovative system in place to tackle this dilemma. If this activity is so team focused that random players - whether they have voice communication or not - just cannot attempt it, then why not create a system that better matches players? Bungie attempted this very recently with Reach: Social preferences tended to match players based on whether they preferred to win or to "have fun", whether they were talkative or quiet, and whether they were team-oriented or lone wolves. I would like to see Bungie expand upon this system and create Raid matchmaking that is in many ways its own thing. If all my normal guys are offline and for whatever reason I can't be arsed to hop on a forum and wait to find more people, there should be a system in place that gets me into games - good games that I have tailored to my preferences - and lets me play within minutes. If I want to voice chat with people, let me note that in my preferences and match me with other chatterboxes. Set these preferences for region, skill, personality; hell, set them for quit history and class while you're at it. But at least give me some control over my experience. This goes for what map shows up in matchmaking too (which was First Light 90% of the time), but that's for another thread.
I'm not trying to be an arm-chair developer here or insinuate that they haven't thought this through. They may have a legitimate reason for omitting it, or may very well be preparing a system like the one I've detailed above that just wont make launch. They may even integrate matchmaking into the old Raid when a new one becomes available. With Destiny, the best way to speculate has been to wait till the game is staring us in our faces from our living rooms, so I can only call it like I see it. But the bigger issue that I see isn't so much the lack of matchmaking, but the sparseness or ineffectiveness of other options. There isn't an in-game clan list and there is no proximity communication, so how are we going to build teams? Certainly not through Bungie.net, which has become increasingly difficult to navigate over the last year and doesn't exactly foster a healthy, "team-oriented" community to pick from.
To go on further, the way fireteams have handled in the game is less than ideal. Inspecting and inviting players is a hassle and it takes too long. I can't hook up with players on the fly if I'm thrown back into orbit and forced to reload an instance. What if that person changes their mind while I'm loading? What if I get on mic and they don't have one, or they're just as bad as any other random player I'd matchmake with? For all the talk about "no proximity chat preserving the experience", the cumbersome system put in place instead does a great job of taking me out of it.
Keep Raids difficult; nobody wants to see them nerfed. Keep team-building and team rewards a focus; Destiny is at its best with friends. But you need to facilitate that experience. Finding players to play Destiny, whether it's in the wild, on the forums, or through a matchmaking system should not require hoop jumping or otherwise removing me from the game world. When it's more frustrating to get into a game than it is to play it, you turn people away. Bungie's own Jason Jones said it best:
“Players don’t want to work hard, they don’t want to read, and they don't want to go to the Internet to figure out our bullshit.”
So enough with the bullshit.
That aside, I don't think matchmaking for Raids should function like it does in the other modes if it were included. I feel that if you were able to simply spend a couple minutes waiting for players and then head into a Raid, many of the concerns already posted will be realized. The experience may end up sour more often than not, especially if it requires such a personal and cooperative commitment, and I'd rather not see Destiny go through what often ruins online communities in these games. I'm sure Bungie in part wanted to avoid this as well considering the rowdiness of their Halo community. However, their decision to rule it out entirely, along with voice communication and no apparent in-game clan list, is again "weird" and is what has me more puzzled.
Watching Max Hoberman talk about his challenges when designing the original Halo matchmaking during the HMCC panel was sort of eye-opening. They built things like in-game friend's lists and automatic playlists from the ground up without much prior reference and it hit off. In many ways, they're responsible for pioneering the system, so it is my personal expectation at least to see a similarly innovative system in place to tackle this dilemma. If this activity is so team focused that random players - whether they have voice communication or not - just cannot attempt it, then why not create a system that better matches players? Bungie attempted this very recently with Reach: Social preferences tended to match players based on whether they preferred to win or to "have fun", whether they were talkative or quiet, and whether they were team-oriented or lone wolves. I would like to see Bungie expand upon this system and create Raid matchmaking that is in many ways its own thing. If all my normal guys are offline and for whatever reason I can't be arsed to hop on a forum and wait to find more people, there should be a system in place that gets me into games - good games that I have tailored to my preferences - and lets me play within minutes. If I want to voice chat with people, let me note that in my preferences and match me with other chatterboxes. Set these preferences for region, skill, personality; hell, set them for quit history and class while you're at it. But at least give me some control over my experience. This goes for what map shows up in matchmaking too (which was First Light 90% of the time), but that's for another thread.
I'm not trying to be an arm-chair developer here or insinuate that they haven't thought this through. They may have a legitimate reason for omitting it, or may very well be preparing a system like the one I've detailed above that just wont make launch. They may even integrate matchmaking into the old Raid when a new one becomes available. With Destiny, the best way to speculate has been to wait till the game is staring us in our faces from our living rooms, so I can only call it like I see it. But the bigger issue that I see isn't so much the lack of matchmaking, but the sparseness or ineffectiveness of other options. There isn't an in-game clan list and there is no proximity communication, so how are we going to build teams? Certainly not through Bungie.net, which has become increasingly difficult to navigate over the last year and doesn't exactly foster a healthy, "team-oriented" community to pick from.
To go on further, the way fireteams have handled in the game is less than ideal. Inspecting and inviting players is a hassle and it takes too long. I can't hook up with players on the fly if I'm thrown back into orbit and forced to reload an instance. What if that person changes their mind while I'm loading? What if I get on mic and they don't have one, or they're just as bad as any other random player I'd matchmake with? For all the talk about "no proximity chat preserving the experience", the cumbersome system put in place instead does a great job of taking me out of it.
Keep Raids difficult; nobody wants to see them nerfed. Keep team-building and team rewards a focus; Destiny is at its best with friends. But you need to facilitate that experience. Finding players to play Destiny, whether it's in the wild, on the forums, or through a matchmaking system should not require hoop jumping or otherwise removing me from the game world. When it's more frustrating to get into a game than it is to play it, you turn people away. Bungie's own Jason Jones said it best:
“Players don’t want to work hard, they don’t want to read, and they don't want to go to the Internet to figure out our bullshit.”
So enough with the bullshit.
That difficulty was ridiculous and not fun for the vast majority of players. Just not a well tuned system.
Diablo 3's Inferno difficulty was ridiculously hard at launch, potentially impossibly so if you chose to find your own loot. For some the nerfs that followed meant that the game was slowly getting "fixed", for others it turned Diablo 3 into a baby game.
Even after all the nerfs Inferno was much harder than the new highest difficulty introduced with the release of the expansion (which is also when Diablo 3 became generally regarded as a good game).
The difficulty just massively outscaled the available gear. The loot system was wonky in that farming act 1 didnt prepare you for act 2, it just made act 1 easier and so progress was stifled until people began exploiting farm methods in Act3/4 and Ponies.
The difficulty was never the concern, honestly T6 now is harder than Inferno ever was but gear is more available so its not as much of an issue to put together a set to tackle it.
As an aside, I think we're close enough to the launch of Destiny that it would be a good idea for Bungie to start showing and telling about features at the same time. Right now they're still telling us about features in bits and pieces, so we get an incomplete picture. Everyone is confused, and clarity only comes later when the feature is eventually revealed and things fall into place. This is why it took a beta for us to really understand the game - lots of stuff just wasn't explained well before it hit.
In this case, the kind of information we're getting now would be well paired with the actual reveal of raids. How they work, the destination, difficulty, whatever Bungie plans to release prior to launch. As is, I'm still unclear on a lot of details (including whether there is one giant raid at launch or more than one).
In this case, the kind of information we're getting now would be well paired with the actual reveal of raids. How they work, the destination, difficulty, whatever Bungie plans to release prior to launch. As is, I'm still unclear on a lot of details (including whether there is one giant raid at launch or more than one).
It's also hilariously snotty. I have the pre-nerf Diablo kill on Inferno solo as well and I still consider it bullshit. Inferno was awful. That I 'completed' it before it was turned to 'babymode' doesn't change my opinion on the design.
D3 is in a far, far better place now than it was then. Far better.
Bungie has made so many odd decisions regarding the social aspect of this game. First the choice to limit cross-platform play because 'one platform pushes more pixels on screen than another', and now friends-only raids. Friends-only raids seems choice-limiting for no real reason. They could have just made it possible to inspect another player's in-game accomplishments/gear to see whether they're up for the task.
I dont think cross platform play was up to them.
Jest Chillin
Member
"Friends only" is just a phrase. They simply mean you have to make a premade group.
PedroLumpy
Member
I think they vastly underestimate what a PUG can acheive, but I'll be interested to see if they can really make a mission that really isn't PUG-able.
I really hope they can keep a mission fun and interesting for a couple hours. Clearing trash is not fun. Neither are bullet sponge bosses where the biggest danger is running out of ammo.
I really hope they can keep a mission fun and interesting for a couple hours. Clearing trash is not fun. Neither are bullet sponge bosses where the biggest danger is running out of ammo.
we.are.the.armada
Member
Love it but they should keep in a PUG option as well because it makes for a good hard mode. Maybe even a good training ground for the raid (depending on the lock-out system).
Psychoward
Banned
Nope. If they're hard enough that randoms can't tackle them then have a little asterisk saying it's extremely hard but still have the option there for people who want to. For a social game they seem deadset on restricting the social aspects.
The way it is set up right now using friends is pretty much the only actually effective way to set up a group. So it is pretty close to the actual truth.
Super easy Raid defeats the purpose of what a Raid is about.
That's fair - I probably should have said balance rather than difficulty. The gear helps a ton.
None of those specific decisions seem strange to me. The only thing that I found odd was how cumbersome communicating and joining up with others in the wild is. Really wonky system.
honestly I think a lot of what killed wow for me was LFD and LFR, raids and dungeons got balanced around matchmaking and the game lost its luster. If Bungie starts out with raids being Really hard and nerfts them over time I'd be fine with it. I feel like without matchmaking the tower will be more relevant, the big mistake with this on bungie's part is, its fucking hard to communicate with people that aren't 1. an existing friend. 2. someone not partied with you.
Who cares , we should have the option to play how we want.
NeededSleep
Member
I have a group of friends just enough to do the raids with. But I know how difficult it can be to meet others in games to group up with.
If Bungie doesnt plan on offering an easier way of grouping or communication with others to find help, or have someone covering their back in a strike mission. For those that are not lucky to be able to play enough, are uncomfortable playing in super aggressive groups, or even sparce play times. Use your psn+ party chat, ive been finding lots of great people through other friends that have joined the chat too during beta.
If your friends list is small feel free to add me as a feiend on psn+ name is Vincen09, and join the psn+ party chat come sept 9th. We have been using the party chat to make new friends from others and form up groups of other like minded individuals. The group im usually with, we dont pvp much, pve will be our main focus in the party chats, pretty laid back, and have other commitments outside the game, which we are understanding about.
Cant wait till sept 9th, going to be taking my time exploring the game with friends learning strike missions. Really looking forward to taking on the harder strike modes, gearing up for the raid while exploring and seeking out dead ghosts and filling out grimoir cards.
If Bungie doesnt plan on offering an easier way of grouping or communication with others to find help, or have someone covering their back in a strike mission. For those that are not lucky to be able to play enough, are uncomfortable playing in super aggressive groups, or even sparce play times. Use your psn+ party chat, ive been finding lots of great people through other friends that have joined the chat too during beta.
If your friends list is small feel free to add me as a feiend on psn+ name is Vincen09, and join the psn+ party chat come sept 9th. We have been using the party chat to make new friends from others and form up groups of other like minded individuals. The group im usually with, we dont pvp much, pve will be our main focus in the party chats, pretty laid back, and have other commitments outside the game, which we are understanding about.
Cant wait till sept 9th, going to be taking my time exploring the game with friends learning strike missions. Really looking forward to taking on the harder strike modes, gearing up for the raid while exploring and seeking out dead ghosts and filling out grimoir cards.
Matchmaking with a disclaimer warning you about raid's difficulty and it requires teamwork and coordination is a far better solution.
Twilight Gap
Member
If the Raids are too easy, there will be another GAF thread about Destiny not having enough content.
Dhruv_hanom
Member
Marvel we really need to do more interceptor dancing!
I can't decide if that thread would be more or less whiny than this thread.