Support NeoGAF

[GribbleGrunger]

Why can't they just stop talking? It's uncomfortable.
Everyone knows the system has lower specs than the PS4. Everyone also knows it because of accommodating for Kinect which nobody wants.

That's what the pre orders are telling you MS, you just are not listening.

Not only do MS keep trying to close the gap with buzzwords in an attempt to portray the power in the X1 as more or less equal, but they deliberately overlook the fact that the X1 also has 3 OSs and Kinect to drain those resources. This is one area I'd like to see Gaf get into because I know nothing about how tech works.

 

[painful fart]

Bishop wins the thread, no competition. Lmao!

 

[AstroNut325]

Folks... we're less than 60 days from seeing the BALANCE act in action! The BALANCE will be parity between the systems! (Barring framerate, AA, texture resolution, and rendering resolution of course!)

We're less than 60 days away from the first Digital Foundry face off for the next generation! This is exciting.

 

[Chobel]

My point was that if his statement is conjecture without proof, than your dismissal of his statement is also conjecture without proof. As a 3rd party observer, his statement made me curious about whether his figures are correct and if not, what the correct figures for these features may be.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

.

 

[CadetMahoney]

We're less than 60 days away from the first Digital Foundry face off for the next generation! This is exciting.

It will be a day to remember.

 

[lherre]

HAHAHAHAHA

 

[frizby]

We're less than 60 days away from the first Digital Foundry face off for the next generation! This is exciting.

Battlefield 4: The Importance of Sound and Balance

 

[AstroNut325]

It will be a day to remember.

I fully expect a 50 page thread in less than 60 minutes of the DF article going live. Regardless of what happens!

If the difference is minimal... 150 page thread in 60 minutes!

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

I fully expect a 50 page thread in less than 60 minutes of the DF article going live. Regardless of what happens!

If the difference is minimal... 150 page thread in 60 minutes!

NeoGAF gonna crash.

To tell the truth I'd be surprised if there were glaring differences in the launch multiplats. While the performance delta is large, none of these launch titles will be maxing out either system. The devs are mostly in a race to finish by November, and will likely be happy just to have the game in a relatively bug-free state by launch day.

Here's to hoping people don't use the intellectually dishonest tactic of using launch games as irrefutable evidence of console parity.

 

[Amir0x]

why do xbox fans need it to be more powerful (or even on par)? Why can't it be enough that Xbox will have great exclusives, and multiplatform games will still look great. If you're a one console gamer next gen an Xbox one will be fine - assuming it has the games you are interested in.

MS potentially being on the back foot is good for Xbox fans. It hopefully means they'll be pressured to support Xbox one with first party content for the full lifecycle of the machine - rather than giving it a quick boost early on and then coasting on 3rd party software.

I agree with you. For those people for whom XB1 is already appealing, it really shouldn't even matter whether PS4 is more powerful. XB1 has games you want. Get them, be happy, you'll still get 'next-gen' console visuals.

I understand why people want to know they own the most powerful console, that's one of my primary considerations for getting a PS4 other than the indies, but if you have already settled into defending the XB1 for its power, then the plan must already be to buy an XB1 at some point, so enjoy it. Accept it for what it is and have fun... the Xb1 is never going to be as powerful as the PS4 either way, ya know?

Give it time. We're still at the denial and isolation stage.

Haha. I was a big Xbox 360 fan, I'd love to see a more powerful XB1, but they had trade-offs, and it's fair. It's a value proposition people have to decide for themselves. It's still going to produce great next-gen visuals, it's not like Wii U or something.

 

[fatgamecat]

Devs should target the 'sweet spot' between resolution, IQ, and framerate for their particular game and genre. Based on 360/PS3 games, that seems to be relatively high IQ and 30 FPS at the expense of resolution.

 

[Biker19]

Man, Microsoft really is the king of bullshit buzz words.

5 billionz transistorz!
The infinite power of the cloud!
We made DirectX!
Balance!

When will people realize that they're just throwing this bullshit out there like bait on a hook? These buzzwords were designed for people who cannot think for themselves or are unwilling to learn about how computer hardware actually works. Microsoft KNOWS these people will latch onto this shit. As someone who actually DOES understand a bit of technical jargon, I'm a bit sick of Microsoft insulting my intelligence. It's nothing but misinformation for people who are less tech-savvy. It's scummy PR at its finest. Unfortunately for Microsoft, most people have something in their head called a brain. And they use said brain to see past their bullshit.

Microsoft made a conscious choice to go with the hardware they chose. Now they just need to grow a pair of BALLS and stop acting like a whiny little prick every time someone like Edge or other devs state facts about the hardware differences. Stand behind your exclusive experiences and shut the fuck up about the hardware. It's getting REALLY old.

/endrant

Why can't they just stop talking? It's uncomfortable.
Everyone knows the system has lower specs than the PS4. Everyone also knows it because of accommodating for Kinect which nobody wants.

That's what the pre orders are telling you MS, you just are not listening.

Simple: People that seriously believes what Microsoft says (or what Microsoft says themselves) are very blind.

I definitely agree with what both of you said, though. It is getting very annoying.

 

[SwiftDeath]

I fully expect a 50 page thread in less than 60 minutes of the DF article going live. Regardless of what happens!

If the difference is minimal... 150 page thread in 60 minutes!

If the X1 version of any game is better than the PS4 version

300 pages in ten minutes

And the servers literally go on fire

 

[frizby]

Here's to hoping people don't use the intellectually dishonest tactic of using launch games as irrefutable evidence of console parity.

 

[waxer]

The comparisons of resolution or flac vs mp3 etc are all moot points when referencing your own system as an example. Your own abilities mixed with your setup are what make your opinion what it is. This doesnt apply to everyone and all that can be done is speculate as to what the avg user will experience.

Im sure on a 10000 stereo with good input the difference in flak vs mp3 is noticeable for instance, even if on my crappy headphones it is not. Assuming source file was better than lower quality mp3 to begin with.

This is where ms is vs sony marketing wise. All these questions get asked as proof. As each claim comes more questions will come. Focus is on the wrong thing. But why is this same mistake still happening.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

If the X1 version of any game is better than the PS4 version

300 pages in ten minutes

And the servers literally go on fire

Nah. It'll just be dismissed as third parties selling out and holding back the more capable hardware or, 'lazy devs'. Happened like this all of this last gen. Other than that, it'll just be .gif/screenshot wars, like it has been in the past where everyone on one side or the other is waiting for proof of technical claims in the form of games they deem worthy of acknowledging. We've got a long way to go and it already feels like it's been going on too long now before launch of either system. Just too much uninformed speculation when no one knows how either platform will evolve with respect to developer's taking advantage of capability and solving weaknesses encountered early in the lifespan. It seems to take until second and third waves of software in the second and third years to see what these things are capable of and how they acted to address imbalances between them to produce consistent parity between multiplats. Exclusives will be the way to see what's what, once again, just like every single generation before it. Of course, the problem is that it's hard to fairly compare apples and oranges.

 

[Sinthor]

"PS4 has 32 ROPes. Xbox One has 16 ROPes. I guess games have to do more climbing to achieve decent graphics on the PS4, hence the need for a greater number of ropes, so that would probably give the Xbox One the edge." Something like that perhaps



Yea, that 900p game looks more impressive graphically than Killzone and Infamous to me. Listen, this isn't me saying Killzone and Infamous look like shit. They look fucking unbelievable. Unbelievable. I just think Ryse looks more crazy graphically. It doesn't matter to me what resolution it's doing it at. All that matters is what I see, and how I think it registers with me on a visual level, and Ryse's SP looks quite stunning. If people want to believe that Killzone and Infamous seriously look 44% or 50% superior graphically then that's their business.



See, I think this is fair. I may disagree on the ultimate conclusions, or on the impact of resolution, something that none of us would have known either way without pixel counting or an outright admission (example, nobody knew either killer instinct or ryse weren't 1080p until somebody said something), but I think there's absolutely nothing necessarily wrong with your conclusions. You are entitled to those opinions, and I respect them. It's true that both systems will have games that look far better than the launch stuff, and that brings us to an interesting dynamic. What are we really talking about? The fact that the PS4 is the notably stronger machine? We know that already. The real issue is that I feel people, unfairly, label the Xbox One as weak and incapable, and all I'm trying to say is that weaker than the PS4 doesn't make it weak. I think the biggest difference between the two machines will be resolution. I think performance will more or less be up to snuff on Xbox One titles, as will the visual fidelity, even if the PS4 has an edge. The real thing that's up for discussion is just how big will that edge be. How noticeable will it be? I can't say, I just don't think it will be massive. Others do. I guess we'll find out.

I get what you're saying I think. You're saying that while there may be differences in resolution or whatever it's not going to be enough to affect your enjoyment of the games and you doubt that the difference will be visible enough (without close inspection) to have an impact on most users. In other words there won't be a difference like there were in particular with some of the early multi-plat PS3 ports where they clearly ran worse, etc. Right? Sounds like a valid opinion to me. I haven't seen any game yet where it's outright noticeable that one system or the other doesn't have effect X applied or has a ton fewer objects animated. And most consumers won't care if a game is at 900p internally versus 1080p. We'll see if things stay that way, but I think I understand what you mean and it's reasonable.

 

[SwiftDeath]

Nah. It'll just be dismissed as third parties selling out and holding back the more capable hardware or, 'lazy devs'. Happened like this all of this last gen. Other than that, it'll just be .gif/screenshot wars, like it has been in the past where everyone on one side or the other is waiting for proof of technical claims in the form of games they deem worthy of acknowledging. We've got a long way to go and it already feels like it's been going on too long now before launch of either system. Just too much uninformed speculation when no one knows how either platform will evolve with respect to developer's taking advantage of capability and solving weaknesses encountered early in the lifespan. It seems to take until second and third waves of software in the second and third years to see what these things are capable of and how they acted to address imbalances between them to produce consistent parity between multiplats. Exclusives will be the way to see what's what, once again, just like every single generation before it. Of course, the problem is that it's hard to fairly compare apples and oranges.

Yeah launch games are usually not a good indicator from what I can tell but we'll see

Even if people say MS is moneyhatting or whatever they'll be argument from the other side so it will become a long thread

I get what you're saying I think. You're saying that while there may be differences in resolution or whatever it's not going to be enough to affect your enjoyment of the games and you doubt that the difference will be visible enough (without close inspection) to have an impact on most users. In other words there won't be a difference like there were in particular with some of the early multi-plat PS3 ports where they clearly ran worse, etc. Right? Sounds like a valid opinion to me. I haven't seen any game yet where it's outright noticeable that one system or the other doesn't have effect X applied or has a ton fewer objects animated. And most consumers won't care if a game is at 900p internally versus 1080p. We'll see if things stay that way, but I think I understand what you mean and it's reasonable.

What made you quote a 3 day old post?

I wouldn't assume the bold

We have no real idea what the performance delta will result in

I had thought that on paper the PS3 and X360 were far closer in power than this gen but due to PS3's complexity it was harder to program for

I seriously doubt that complexity would be equivalent to a 40% performance delta

So it could even be worse

We just don't know

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

I get what you're saying I think. You're saying that while there may be differences in resolution or whatever it's not going to be enough to affect your enjoyment of the games and you doubt that the difference will be visible enough (without close inspection) to have an impact on most users. In other words there won't be a difference like there were in particular with some of the early multi-plat PS3 ports where they clearly ran worse, etc. Right? Sounds like a valid opinion to me. I haven't seen any game yet where it's outright noticeable that one system or the other doesn't have effect X applied or has a ton fewer objects animated. And most consumers won't care if a game is at 900p internally versus 1080p. We'll see if things stay that way, but I think I understand what you mean and it's reasonable.

Not sure how you arrived at the bolded. The performance delta between the PS3 and 360 was a totally different animal. They were relatively close in FLOP count yet the PS3 was notoriously hard to develop for, creating a performance gap. This time, with consoles about 10x more powerful than last gen, you have a large percent difference, equating to a FLOP difference larger than several of the previous consoles combined. How can you make that assumption with any confidence? Exactly what part of that sounds reasonable? I'm genuinely curious.
You haven't seen any games that show a noticeable difference on either system because they generally haven't been shown for the Xbox One.

 

[Skeff]

Yeah launch games are usually not a good indicator from what I can tell but we'll see

Even if people say MS is moneyhatting or whatever they'll be argument from the other side so it will become a long thread



What made you quote a 3 day old post?

I wouldn't assume the bold

We have no real idea what the performance delta will result in

I had thought that on paper the PS3 and X360 were far closer in power than this gen but due to PS3's complexity it was harder to program for

I seriously doubt that complexity would be equivalent to a 40% performance delta

So it could even be worse

We just don't know

Perhaps because the original poster can't?

 

[SwiftDeath]

Perhaps because the original poster can't?

Was my thoughts as well to be honest but not my place to judge

Just curious because there have been several other posts in the last couple of pages he could've quoted that conveyed a similar message

Perhaps he's just now trying to read through this thread?

The quoted post in question was from the 3rd page and we're on page 43 (100ppp)

 

[TechnicPuppet]

For now they're not coming to Xbox one. Anyway


I would love to change 80 to 75 if that's OK with you.

Let's start counting!

I originally had it at 85 but I think Fallout NV only got 84 or something. I couldn't have that.

 

[SoldierGryphon]

All this talk of PS4's power reminds me so much of all that "Cell" crap with the PS3.

Not denying PS4 is more powerful. But gamers always highly overexaggerate.

 

[Chobel]

I originally had it at 85 but I think Fallout NV only got 84 or something. I couldn't have that.

I want 75 because some good games have less than 80: Lost Odyssey, Hitman: Absolution... etc

Maybe 78 will do?

 

[TechnicPuppet]

I want 75 because some good games have less than 80: Lost Odyssey, Hitman: Absolution... etc

Maybe 78 will do?

78 it is then. PS4 is 1-0 up because of Minecraft I think.

 

[Chobel]

78 it is then. PS4 is 1-0 up because of Minecraft I think.

Minecraft is coming to Xbox one too, so it's 1-1.

 

[NBtoaster]

Interesting, why are both PNGs in the 1920x1080 resolution?

One is 1600x900 scaled to 1080p. Like what would happen on the console..

 

[Pimpbaa]

Nah. It'll just be dismissed as third parties selling out and holding back the more capable hardware or, 'lazy devs'.

What else would it be? It isn't anywhere near as comparable to this gen. Cell was a legitimate stumbling block for developers (split ram as well). With next gen, we have 2 systems with some very similar parts and both should be relatively easier to program for. So if the more powerful system somehow gets an inferior or identical port, then there would definitely be something very wrong with the developers. I mean even if they add no additional effects and whatnot, the system will still naturally run the game at a faster framerate and at a higher resolution (if the game is not already 1080p).

 

[hellmonkey]

All this talk of PS4's power reminds me so much of all that "Cell" crap with the PS3.

Not denying PS4 is more powerful. But gamers always highly overexaggerate.

That is not a valid comparison. The cell, while one powerful son of a bitch, was a giant nightmare to code for. It took much longer to make it work than the PC or the 360. This time around, the ps4 is EASIER to code for than the Xbone, not harder. Also, both systems are x86 architecture so spec differences almost directly relate to performance differences. The ps4 is more powerful and easier to work with, this was not the case last gen.

 

[theignoramus]

Im buying a nextbox for Forza 5 regardless. But it might turn out to be a "second" console for me if it has inferior multiplat games.

 

[CLEEK]

I agree with you. For those people for whom XB1 is already appealing, it really shouldn't even matter whether PS4 is more powerful. XB1 has games you want. Get them, be happy, you'll still get 'next-gen' console visuals.

This is how I feel.

I have never lost any sleep worrying about the performance of the WiiU. I bought one at launch, knowing it was a minor improvement over current gen. But it is the only console available to play 1st party Nintendo games on. I never expected to buy any multi-plat games on it.

The same is true of the Xbone. It will always have worse multi-plat games (how much worse if still unknown), but that's a moot point as I won't be buying multi-plat games on it anyway. I'll be buying an Xbone when it has the exclusives that justify it.

The PS4 will be my main consoles, for Sony exclusives and multi-plats. The WiiU and Xbone will be for exclusives, which by their very nature will push the host hardware more and look great. It's very likely best 1st party Xbone games will look better than the best PS4 multi-plats anyway.

 

[Skeff]

Minecraft is coming to Xbox one too, so it's 1-1.

Don't know the rules of this competition but Minecraft is only a launch game on PS4, it's a launch window on XB1.

 

[BruiserBear]

Man, Microsoft really is the king of bullshit buzz words.

5 billionz transistorz!
The infinite power of the cloud!
We made DirectX!
Balance!

When will people realize that they're just throwing this bullshit out there like bait on a hook? These buzzwords were designed for people who cannot think for themselves or are unwilling to learn about how computer hardware actually works. Microsoft KNOWS these people will latch onto this shit. As someone who actually DOES understand a bit of technical jargon, I'm a bit sick of Microsoft insulting my intelligence. It's nothing but misinformation for people who are less tech-savvy. It's scummy PR at its finest. Unfortunately for Microsoft, most people have something in their head called a brain. And they use said brain to see past their bullshit.

Microsoft made a conscious choice to go with the hardware they chose. Now they just need to grow a pair of BALLS and stop acting like a whiny little prick every time someone like Edge or other devs state facts about the hardware differences. Stand behind your exclusive experiences and shut the fuck up about the hardware. It's getting REALLY old.

/endrant

I hate to say it, but the vast majority of people have no idea how any of this works. You're completely right though, that this is exactly why Microsoft use all these special words to describe this stuff. The cloud, transistors, etc, is all vague enough that the uninformed (the vast majority of people, even many of the hardcore) will think it sounds good.

The most offensive aspect is the actual gaming press that often relay this marketing speak. I'm not that tech savvy, and I immediately smelled bullshit when I heard Microsoft start talking up the cloud around E3. Yet so much of the gaming press just parroted most of it. So you've got the gaming press actually assisting in misinforming people.

 

[SwiftDeath]

Don't know the rules of this competition but Minecraft is only a launch game on PS4, it's a launch window on XB1.

Yeah that makes literally no sense to me

the 360 has had minecraft for over a year, almost a year and a half

Really surprised it's not a launch game

 

[Skeff]

Yeah that makes literally no sense to me

the 360 has had minecraft for over a year, almost a year and a half

Really surprised it's not a launch game

Yea my first thought was ESRAM trouble but then I realized It was Minecraft so it could run just fine without ESRAM at all, So I have no idea, maybe Notch had a disagreement about windows 8 exclusives or something

 

[Amir0x]

I thought the reason the Xbox One version of Minecraft is not coming at launch was because it's going to have special features above and beyond any other version?

 

[RoboPlato]

I thought the reason the Xbox One version of Minecraft is not coming at launch was because it's going to have special features above and beyond any other version?

That's what Microsoft wants you to think.

Spoiler

I honestly don't know. It very well could.

 

[Skeff]

I thought the reason the Xbox One version of Minecraft is not coming at launch was because it's going to have special features above and beyond any other version?

it's possible, we do know the xb1 version of minecraft is exclusive to xb1.

 

[graywolf323]

I thought the reason the Xbox One version of Minecraft is not coming at launch was because it's going to have special features above and beyond any other version?

I don't think they've said anything about that

though we know PS4 is getting "Minecraft" and Xbox One is getting "Minecraft: Xbox One Edition" just like the 360 had "Minecraft Xbox 360 Edition"

so I wonder if PS4's will somehow tie into the PC version?

 

[mrklaw]

I don't think they've said anything about that

though we know PS4 is getting "Minecraft" and Xbox One is getting "Minecraft: Xbox One Edition" just like the 360 had "Minecraft Xbox 360 Edition"

so I wonder if PS4's will somehow tie into the PC version?

I'd love that, and Sony have been a bit more flexible with cross platform stuff in the past. If the PS4 version could play on our family server while I'm on it on PC, that'd be amazing

 

[Skeff]

I'd love that, and Sony have been a bit more flexible with cross platform stuff in the past. If the PS4 version could play on our family server while I'm on it on PC, that'd be amazing

We already know this is happening with FFXIV so it's certainly feasible.

 

[Jack_AG]

Not only do MS keep trying to close the gap with buzzwords in an attempt to portray the power in the X1 as more or less equal, but they deliberately overlook the fact that the X1 also has 3 OSs and Kinect to drain those resources. This is one area I'd like to see Gaf get into because I know nothing about how tech works.

Easy. Unless there is dedicated hardware to those specific tasks - those processor cycles have to come from somewhere at the expense of something else.

 

[frizby]

All this talk of PS4's power reminds me so much of all that "Cell" crap with the PS3.

Yeah, it's really nothing like that.

PS3 had some legitimate hardware disadvantages and was a pain to program for. PS4 really has no hardware disadvantages and is by most accounts easier to program for. The power difference is also much more pronounced than it was this generation.

 

[Klocker]

All this talk of PS4's power reminds me so much of all that "Cell" crap with the PS3.

Not denying PS4 is more powerful. But gamers always highly overexaggerate.

Exactly

Been there done that -2005-2006


There will be little to no difference in games ...regardless if a bunch of people say over and over that there will be.

Spoiler

cue the but this gen is different because...

 

[artist]

Exactly

Been there done that -2005-2006


There will be little to no difference in games ...regardless if a bunch of people say over and over that there will be.

Spoiler

cue the but this gen is different because...

Do keep repeating this till you fall asleep?

 

[stryke]

Assertions without evidence are the best kind.

 

[famousmortimer]

Exactly

Been there done that -2005-2006


There will be little to no difference in games ...regardless if a bunch of people say over and over that there will be.

Spoiler

cue the but this gen is different because...

Wait, there wasn't a difference between multiplat games in the beginning of this gen? Because I'm pretty sure the PS3 ports I played of major games (Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon come to mind) were awful.

 

[SwiftDeath]

Wait, there wasn't a difference between multiplat games in the beginning of this gen? Because I'm pretty sure the PS3 ports I played of major games (Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon come to mind) were awful.

Don't worry though the difference became negligible as the gen progressed

Madden 08 -> Bayonetta -> Skyrim

Wait...

 

[Chobel]

Exactly

Been there done that -2005-2006


There will be little to no difference in games ...regardless if a bunch of people say over and over that there will be.

Spoiler

cue the but this gen is different because...

What do you define as little difference? What do you think about different resolutions?

 

[Artorias]

Exactly

Been there done that -2005-2006


There will be little to no difference in games ...regardless if a bunch of people say over and over that there will be.

Spoiler

cue the but this gen is different because...

Still fighting the good fight, in memory of the many fallen soldiers. Clinging to the hope that maybe, possibly, the two consoles could be even despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, complete with specs and hard numbers.

Have fun with that.