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[PtM]

Wow...The girls are really mean.
Rude, lazy and homophobic to describe boys?
Geez.

But the boys want to let the girls know that they are cool, awesome and fun.

Wow...The boys are really mean.
Weird, boring and tomboy to describe girls?
Geez.

But the girls want to let the boys know that they are cool, awesome and fun.

Not sure why you guys are all quick to assume that the average teenage male is sexist (I'm speaking as teenage boy myself). While my very progressive feelings about video games certainly don't represent my entire age group, they are completely genuine and I certainly don't have any secret intentions, nor am I lying about them. I really would love to see more equal and common representation of women in video games. Of my friend group, I literally only know maybe one guy who would be would be less likely to play a game if it had a female protagonist. As to whether or not sexism is an issue in (some) video games, I'd say 1/3rd of the gamers in my social group (me included) would argue it is, 1/3rd would say they don't care, and the other 1/3rd would argue it isn't. Like I said earlier, this obviously does not represent my age group as a whole, but I don't understand why so many of you are so eager to dismiss the findings of this survey.

The questions asked are loaded.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Wow...The boys are really mean.
Weird, boring and tomboy to describe girls?
Geez.

But the girls want to let the boys know that they are cool, awesome and fun.

Yeah, I think fedexpeon was only looking for bad things w/ the boys and good things w/ the girls :v

 

[fedexpeon]

I like that you mentioned homophobic. I had to actively try and find that on the infograph thingy.



I don't know, was there? Was the peer-reviewed study done by people who have a vested interest in proving that gaming isn't sexist?

Really? It was the biggest difference so it stood out when I quickly glanced at it.
But yeah...how many girls used that word to describe the boys that it showed up on the survey analysis generator?

Yeah, I think fedexpeon was only looking for bad things w/ the boys and good things w/ the girls :v

Nah, I am looking at the size of the words since it tells you the overall answers. And more positive terms are larger for girls than boys.
You can easily see it with the exception of homophobic...and like I said before, just wow. What a horrible way to describe young kids.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Wow EVEN teenagers? So who is buying all those sexism games? Because they sure are selling.

Sexism games are selling? I haven't noticed that, especially when I look at the NPD every month. Seems like mostly violence and guns are what is selling which typically involves manly, muscular macho men that populate video games. Sure, they have the occasional females in them, but I cannot think of too many that sell really well that particularly portray females in a negative light or uses sexism.

When i was around 14 i would only think of BEWBZ ..
It's called puberty and there is nothing wrong with being interested in the opposite or same sex.
and companies like to use this..

SEX SELLS
deal with it

Actually, that is not true anymore, at least as far as video games go. I am not sure if this was ever true as a matter of fact. If that was the case, games like Onechanbara, Bayonetta, DOA and er.....XBlades would of sold many millions by now and more companies would be jumping aboard. I think even remote or subtle sexiness or whatever runs most gamers away.

 

[Dremark]

Yeah, I think fedexpeon was only looking for bad things w/ the boys and good things w/ the girls :v

There were definitely some negative words used on both sides, but I felt it was pretty clear that there were more negative and harsher statements about the guys than about the girls.

Also for what it's worth when I blew the image up homophobic was one of the first things I noticed but I'm on a cell phone and after blowing it up it was right near the center. I think if I were on a PC or a device with a larger screen it would likely have been less noticeable.

 

[lileli]

They said.. after watching some porn in the morning.

I am a high school teacher in an urban school and the results of the survey do not surprise me at all. The generation growing up today is much more tolerant and accepting. Also, a sample size of over 1000 is a huge sample size that if designed correctly can be very representative of the nation. My fellow social science majors should know what I am talking about.

 

[lileli]

Sometimes sexist people have a real hard time understanding that the rest of the world isn't like them. Just because the results don't fit your worldview doesn't mean they are invalid. The world has changed and keeps on changing.

 

[A Link to the Past]

There were definitely some negative words used on both sides, but I felt it was pretty clear that there were more negative and harsher statements about the guys than about the girls.

Also for what it's worth when I blew the image up homophobic was one of the first things I noticed but I'm on a cell phone and after blowing it up it was right near the center. I think if I were on a PC or a device with a larger screen it would likely have been less noticeable.

This is indeed true, but then you have to ask why the data comes out like this. I doubt it's because women are just jerks and men are wonderful. If I had to guess, respondents (assuming this poll isn't overtly tampered with by non-teens) who are women could very easily be speaking from negative experiences with men, while the men who would be interested in taking a poll like this may be more interested in speaking positively about women.

 

[PtM]

This is indeed true, but then you have to ask why the data comes out like this. I doubt it's because women are just jerks and men are wonderful. If I had to guess, respondents (assuming this poll isn't overtly tampered with by non-teens) who are women could very easily be speaking from negative experiences with men, while the men who would be interested in taking a poll like this may be more interested in speaking positively about women.

I think it is much easier than that. Girls growing up have a maturation headstart, which is why they experience boys as immature and whatnot.
Another component is gender roles: Men are supposed to be aggressive and shit.

 

[Dremark]

This is indeed true, but then you have to ask why the data comes out like this. I doubt it's because women are just jerks and men are wonderful. If I had to guess, respondents (assuming this poll isn't overtly tampered with by non-teens) who are women could very easily be speaking from negative experiences with men, while the men who would be interested in taking a poll like this may be more interested in speaking positively about women.

Of course, there are a lot of factors that could influence a study like this.

 

[QuickSilverD]

I don't know, was there? Was the peer-reviewed study done by people who have a vested interest in proving that gaming isn't sexist?

Do you understand what peer-review means?

here's a study I found after 2 minutes of google searching: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...attitudes_among_German_video_game_players.php

Sexist attitudes and videogame use are not correlated with each other...

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Focus groups and surveys by marketing people for teens might be different to online surveys because they deliberately filter the selection to "influencers." As in kids who are seen as being much more socially influential than average. So I don't really see why people would look down on a less professional online survey compared to how marketing people make decisions.

 

[daniels]

Sometimes sexist people have a real hard time understanding that the rest of the world isn't like them. Just because the results don't fit your worldview doesn't mean they are invalid. The world has changed and keeps on changing.

dont care much about the results either way since they still grow up but asking a 14 year old boy "are females too often treated as sex objects in video games?" is loaded crap, pointing that out isn't sexist.

 

[Nipo]

Focus groups and surveys by marketing people for teens might be different to online surveys because they deliberately filter the selection to "influencers." As in kids who are seen as being much more socially influential than average. So I don't really see why people would look down on a less professional online survey compared to how marketing people make decisions.

Two reasons:

1) Voluntary Response bias - people who decide to take a survey on sexism in video games are more likely to be interested in the subject and thus not a representation of the average population.

2) Verification Issues - there is no group verifying that these 11-17 year olds actually were 11-17 years old.


For market data companies are as likely to do representative samples as looking at influencers or key demos.

If you pay a panel company they'll get you a representative sample of people in a certain age group.

 

[napata]

Focus groups and surveys by marketing people for teens might be different to online surveys because they deliberately filter the selection to "influencers." As in kids who are seen as being much more socially influential than average. So I don't really see why people would look down on a less professional online survey compared to how marketing people make decisions.

This survey is way worse than most marketing research in regards to sampling. Besides a lot of marketing research is trash as well.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Focus groups and surveys by marketing people for teens might be different to online surveys because they deliberately filter the selection to "influencers." As in kids who are seen as being much more socially influential than average. So I don't really see why people would look down on a less professional online survey compared to how marketing people make decisions.

This is why Research Methods and Statistics should be required courses for everyone to take, regardless of their major.

Marketing research is done in a very careful and nearly scientific way. Sticking a poll on Twitter and letting any damn bozo take your poll is not the same thing. This is terrible, terrible research design. Just on the issue of sampling bias alone, marketing research is done way, way better.

 

[More_Badass]

Two reasons:

1) Voluntary Response bias - people who decide to take a survey on sexism in video games are more likely to be interested in the subject and thus not a representation of the average population.

2) Verification Issues - there is no group verifying that these 11-17 year olds actually were 11-17 years old.


For market data companies are as likely to do representative samples as looking at influencers or key demos.

If you pay a panel company they'll get you a representative sample of people in a certain age group.

Exactly. This is the kind of study we'd tear apart discussing flaws and ways to improve upon when I was taking experimental psych.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

This is why Research Methods and Statistics should be required courses for everyone to take, regardless of their major.

Marketing research is done in a very careful and nearly scientific way. Sticking a poll on Twitter and letting any damn bozo take your poll is not the same thing. This is terrible, terrible research design. Just on the issue of sampling bias alone, marketing research is done way, way better.

It's done more professionally but the way it is done but does that not also mean that it is better at getting the specific sorts of data that they are looking for? Where as an open poll open to "any bozo" would be worse for getting results that people setting the poll want which is what they are being accused of here.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Threads like this make me happy, and remind me that the whole Goober Gate thing is overwith.

Next stop: full blown feminist slants in all things video games!



You can certainly tell the boys from the men in this one. Don't worry, I give it one or two mod cullings to fix it.

Hahahaha
Dat backseat modding.

Love the lack of logic around here. Suddenly leading questions aren't a thing?

 

[cyberheater]

I don't believe the survey.

 

[Lethe82]

I don't believe the survey.

Looking into it the survey is very unscientific and the results as they are reported are erroneously conflating a lot of things.

Two reasons:

1) Voluntary Response bias - people who decide to take a survey on sexism in video games are more likely to be interested in the subject and thus not a representation of the average population.

2) Verification Issues - there is no group verifying that these 11-17 year olds actually were 11-17 years old.


For market data companies are as likely to do representative samples as looking at influencers or key demos.

If you pay a panel company they'll get you a representative sample of people in a certain age group.

And that it got most of its exposure through tumblr pages and twitter-ers that appeal to a specialized slice of the overall population.

Do you understand what peer-review means?

here's a study I found after 2 minutes of google searching: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...attitudes_among_German_video_game_players.php

While we're at it it should be noted that this is the most comprehensive study of its kind on this issue to date

It's really telling when that study recieved virtually no exposure on game or through games media, yet everyone falls over themselves to report a surveymonkey online poll with no scientific validity because it told people and gaming press what they wanted to hear.

 

[sssstententen]

I say it everywhere and I'll say it again, there's nothing wrong with sexuality in games or media. Its objectification of a gender through sexualization, or discrimination, etc, that is the problem. And I think that's where the battle line gets drawn too. I think when you come out saying "T&A is bad and needs to stop", people react, on both sides. I personally think we need to be more open with sexuality, just in more acceptable and friendly ways. But again I think people just latch onto this idea that you can't have both work and obviously
people are going to be upset by that.

Edit: And to get on topic, especially when it comes to younger boys, of course some more educated kids are gonna say depictions of women should be more varied and nuanced, or contain depth/character instead of being shallow sex objects. On that same note, if you would ask a boy if he'd rather play a game with attractive females, or unnatractive ones, I think it's completely acceptable for ANYONE to say they'd rather play a game with the attractive.

 

[Lethe82]

I say it everywhere and I'll say it again, there's nothing wrong with sexuality in games or media. Its objectification of a gender through sexualization, or discrimination, etc, that is the problem. And I think that's where the battle line gets drawn too. I think when you come out saying "T&A is bad and needs to stop", people react, on both sides. I personally think we need to be more open with sexuality, just in more acceptable and friendly ways. But again I think people just latch onto this idea that you can't have both work and obviously
people are going to be upset by that.

Edit: And to get on topic, especially when it comes to younger boys, of course some more educated kids are gonna say depictions of women should be more varied and nuanced, or contain depth/character instead of being shallow sex objects. On that same note, if you would ask a boy if he'd rather play a game with attractive females, or unnatractive ones, I think it's completely acceptable for ANYONE to say they'd rather play a game with the attractive.

Right on all accounts, and even then what he finds attractive could and would very well be interpreted as sexist by others. Hell if you posted the same questions (minus leading and horrible presupposition) on places where you expect it to be a video gaming misogynistic hell hole, you'd probably get the same answers in so far as wanting nuanced depictions of women.

 

[Yoshi]

Wow...The girls are really mean.
Rude, lazy and homophobic to describe boys?
Geez.

But the boys want to let the girls know that they are cool, awesome and fun.

I think it's amazing that one quite popular answer to the question "girls are..." is "male".

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It's done more professionally but the way it is done but does that not also mean that it is better at getting the specific sorts of data that they are looking for? Where as an open poll open to "any bozo" would be worse for getting results that people setting the poll want which is what they are being accused of here.

I'm not sure what you're going on about. Marketing research is supposed to get "the specific sorts of data that they are looking for." What else would they want? Data they don't need? The data isn't meant to be full of confirmation bias, it's supposed to answer questions that they need answers to. It wouldn't be in the best interest of a profit based company to have surveys full of mere confirmation bias. If you understood anything about research methods, you'd know that's the whole point of avoiding sampling biases: making sure the data is truly representative of the population.

What this study is being accused of here is poor research design. There's no way around it. We don't know how the results were effected. The fact that it was shared on Twitter and within a possibly very progressive part of the community means that the data might be overstating kid's opinions on sexism and such. On the other hand, maybe no such effect happened. The whole problem is that we can't know because the survey is so poorly designed. Putting an anonymous survey on social media is literally among one of the worst ways to collect data that I can think of.

I don't believe the survey.

Nor should you. The results might be true for the population, but this is not a good survey to argue that with.

 

[Biker19]

Actually, that is not true anymore, at least as far as video games go. I am not sure if this was ever true as a matter of fact. If that was the case, games like Onechanbara, Bayonetta, DOA and er.....XBlades would of sold many millions by now and more companies would be jumping aboard. I think even remote or subtle sexiness or whatever runs most gamers away.

That's because that such games like the ones that you mentioned are mostly niche titles instead of big, mainstream titles.

 

[Northeastmonk]

It's also puberty. We all know how young people are exposed to pornography anymore. Video Games have always been a bit censored due to what they allow with the ESRB (PEGI, CERO). Sure, video games have a sense of amazement to them when they can tell a story with a bit of sexual charisma. That's with any form of entertainment. Sexuality is fun, but it's also something some people don't enjoy. There are people out there who are non-sexual and enjoy non-sexual things. It's also very random because puberty is different for everyone.

If video games don't hit that mark then they can go online to a porn site and get it. I was fine with sexuality in games at that age, but it had to be done right. The designer has to make it worth your time and it's better when it stands out.

I feel like they're policing something that has always worked in its own way. Plus, online surveys are bogus because you are basically giving it a world where someone can pose as someone else.

If American Game Designers start making games with less sexual content then I think they're just cowering to fear and a single thought process. If sexuality doesn't come from video games then we'll get it from some place else. Some other designer will know how to use the medium.

The non sexual gaming debate works with certain genres and how you pitch a game to an audience. Sure, some games are better without sex. It was never a big debate even when these people go back to look at our era. It's not like it satisfied us completely. Women look good and sexuality is something they enjoy as well. For what it's worth. Sexuality in games can be fun, but it has to be done right. The ESRB has done a lot of it in and we are teased half the time. A breast shot isn't bad, but its blown out of proportion in today's society.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

That's because that such games like the ones that you mentioned are mostly niche titles instead of big, mainstream titles.

So what would be big, mainstream titles that sold well on the base of their sexualized female characters?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I'm not sure what you're going on about. Marketing research is supposed to get "the specific sorts of data that they are looking for."

Well surely it is targeted to certain types of people with certain types of questions. Maybe you could give us some examples of what publishers are asking people and who they are asking. If you know of a time when teen boys were presented with a female character and were asked if they didn't like playable female characters or if this one was too sexy or not sexy enough it would be interesting in context.

 

[Bio]

I say it everywhere and I'll say it again, there's nothing wrong with sexuality in games or media. Its objectification of a gender through sexualization, or discrimination, etc, that is the problem. And I think that's where the battle line gets drawn too. I think when you come out saying "T&A is bad and needs to stop", people react, on both sides. I personally think we need to be more open with sexuality, just in more acceptable and friendly ways. But again I think people just latch onto this idea that you can't have both work and obviously
people are going to be upset by that.

Edit: And to get on topic, especially when it comes to younger boys, of course some more educated kids are gonna say depictions of women should be more varied and nuanced, or contain depth/character instead of being shallow sex objects. On that same note, if you would ask a boy if he'd rather play a game with attractive females, or unnatractive ones, I think it's completely acceptable for ANYONE to say they'd rather play a game with the attractive.

Totally. I completely agree female characters need more mature and varied representation in video games. I also really like to play games with super attractive jiggly scantily clad females. *shrug*

 

[PtM]

I say it everywhere and I'll say it again, there's nothing wrong with sexuality in games or media. Its objectification of a gender through sexualization, or discrimination, etc, that is the problem. And I think that's where the battle line gets drawn too. I think when you come out saying "T&A is bad and needs to stop", people react, on both sides. I personally think we need to be more open with sexuality, just in more acceptable and friendly ways. But again I think people just latch onto this idea that you can't have both work and obviously
people are going to be upset by that.

But sexuality doesn't stop at tits and ass, those are the shallowest forms of sexuality and if it stops there, it is fake sexuality for the sake of cheap titillation => insta-objectification. Bayonetta at least goes further than that.

 

[Bloodrage]

I'm not really seeing the sexism these days. Most of the biggest games from E3 were revealed to have female protagonists, and none of them were half-naked.

 

[zeroroute]

Shit, anime really is on the decline.

This reasoning is flawed. There's always been anime with loads of sexual content. We just didn't know about it before the internet got big.

 

[GamerJM]

Well really, GG is like 18-35 demo more than anything, so it's entirely possible that we're witnessing the next 18-35 demo being more about this kind of stuff.

This seems about right, both from my experience of interacting with GG and people in the under 18 age range. A lot of people like to paint GG as a bunch of immature teenagers, but from what I've seen it's mostly a bunch of really immature and bitter college-aged 20-something's, which is probably sadder.

 

[silvermember]

Sometimes sexist people have a real hard time understanding that the rest of the world isn't like them. Just because the results don't fit your worldview doesn't mean they are invalid. The world has changed and keeps on changing.

There is no way, teenage boys are not sexist. They are probably saying all that crap to impress girls, I know when I was their age I used to do it to impress girls.

Apparently to some ppl in this forum, their worthless anecdotal experiences represents the population and not just a data point. If that isn't arrogance, I don't know what it is.

Considering that the young are usually the ones that tend to be more progressive, statements such as those are even more ridiculous.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Well surely it is targeted to certain types of people with certain types of questions. Maybe you could give us some examples of what publishers are asking people and who they are asking. If you know of a time when teen boys were presented with a female character and were asked if they didn't like playable female characters or if this one was too sexy or not sexy enough it would be interesting in context.

I don't know what you're hung up on. They're asking representative samples of the population to figure out how to sell more of their product. You know, the thing that every profitable company in the world does. If you want to learn more about how to conduct marketing research, look it up.

The issue at hand is that this survey is not scientific.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I don't know what you're hung up on. They're asking representative samples of the population to figure out how to sell more of their product. You know, the thing that every profitable company in the world does. If you want to learn more about how to conduct marketing research, look it up.

The issue at hand is that this survey is not scientific.

What I'm hung up on is that the supposed "quality" research is not open here to be looked at all. What is not scientific is dismissing data as not worth anything without fitting it into a larger picture or scientifically explaining why it is different to other sets of "better" data in terms of accounting mathematically for the errors.

 

[Yoshi]

What I'm hung up on is that the supposed "quality" research is not open here to be looked at all. What is not scientific is dismissing data as not worth anything without fitting it into a larger picture or scientifically explaining why it is different to other sets of "better" data in terms of accounting mathematically for the errors.

But this has happened countless times here? If you want to conduct a scientifically sound survey, you need to take a random sample of people who are certainly in your range of people you want to investigate. You cannot take people you find via twitter, people where you don't even know their age (which is an important part of this survey), and people who predominantly should be of a certain opinion because your twitter is probably followed predominantly by people of that opinion. Moreover, you should ensure by design of your survey that your questions are not leading.

 

[PtM]

I know when I was their age I used to do it to impress girls.

Apparently to some ppl in this forum, their worthless anecdotal experiences

Huehuehue.

 

[Tunahead]

Lots of people in this thread pointed out the stupidity of this survey from the point of view of unscientific methods and leading questions and such, but they completely missed the other part of why this survey is stupid:

The thing the survey is trying to find out is in itself stupid.

Of course teenage boys don't want more objectification of women in video games! And not because of some moral objection, or as a dishonest claim to impress girls, but simply because there's this thing called the Internet, perhaps you've heard of it, which is literally full of the objectification of women which you can look at instantly, and you don't have to play a video game for it for ten hours and navigate dialogue trees and then receive a laughable poorly animated fully clothed sex scene or a mediocre Ladies Of The Witcher Franchise trading card which stays on the screen for a whole entire second and is then gone forever.

The assertion that any teenage boy would want sexism in video games is exactly as stupid as the assertion that if you offered a teenage boy a choice of cars, he would naturally choose the one with a pair of silicones stapled to the hood because he likes tits.

 

[LordJim]

And of course, Wiseman has now responded that the main purpose of the survey was to 'generate conversation'.
Wouldn't a proper survey that at least attempts to meet basic standards achieve that? They certainly did not communicate the quality and purpose of their work that well, judging from the articles posted.

 

[monlo]

A public strawpoll being linked to specific subcultures to be taken by teens only "in good faith" is reported as being news now? You'd have more accurate data by putting it on 4chan. Everything about this is vomit inducing

 

[spekkeh]

It's not entirely uncommon to source your participants from social media. Most master students do it, and that's a rather significant part of scientific research. Of course asking 'hardcore gamers' to fill in something on NeoGAF is something very different from asking the moral outlook of people who are right inside your own affinity space and then generalizing that across the population.

 

[SomTervo]

I am a high school teacher in an urban school and the results of the survey do not surprise me at all. The generation growing up today is much more tolerant and accepting. Also, a sample size of over 1000 is a huge sample size that if designed correctly can be very representative of the nation. My fellow social science majors should know what I am talking about.

This is nice to hear and I wish it was true of the whole generation across the developed world, but I doubt it is.