Oh I'm not suggesting the script reflect him as less educated, less refined, or some thug. I'm saying that considering his disdain for the nobility, and his resentment of what Ramza's status represent despite having grown up with him, that he would find ways to differentiate himself. I feel there is no attempt at that in WotL and it was a missed opportunity, given the wide range they had to play with in terms of language use.
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FFT War of the Lions translation sacrifices readability for pretentious prose
- Thread starter fvng
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Oh, definitely agree with that.
I think it's important to note that even while Delita resented the nobles, he had his own superiority/god complexes and treated people like tools.
Speaking like a noble also afforded him more opportunities with the people he was trying to use. Large parts of his plan wouldn't have worked if certain people were more aware of his birth.
Yabberwocky
Member
This thread has been really interesting and informative, I've definitely learnt a few things! The context for 'I am come' is intriguing, I had no idea about the biblical context. Even just a few grammar comments from earlier in the thread were fascinating. I really liked the dialogue examples from OP's post, but yeah, something like the Wiegraf example absolutely feels unnecessarily convoluted, and the dialogue flow isn't there as much.
I dragged out some of my folk music from the 1500s onwards for a quick skim, and it was nice to have some context from earlier in the thread why some lines would have been phrased in such a way, I'd previously just zoned out and taken them at face value. A lot of it was written in the 1500s/1600s/1700s/etc, so I know someone would have come along and updated the words (and possibly the music) a century or two later so it's more understandable, and obviously the words aren't 100% historically accurate anymore. Still, WotL's localization does feel downright contained in comparison to some of the words I was skimming earlier, it's all wonderfully flowery. WotL's dialogue does feel tonally appropriate for what they were going for, and in some ways is probably waaaaaaaay more modern (by a few centuries) than the equivalent time period. I guess WotL's dialogue feels more from the Georgian era, maybe even earlier again? Maybe more Elizabethan? I have no idea.
I really enjoy the WotL localization because on top of some fantastic dialogue, it is tonally consistent and almost grounded. I feel like it created its own little realized world that the player got to step into, which enhanced the strong foundation from the original Japanese version. I really do appreciate the tonal consistency throughout WotL. On the other hand, Fire Emblem Fates really annoyed me with the back and forth dissonance with dialogue, as some characters had dialogue that was styled to be more archaic, and then other characters would have lines of dialogue that were extremely modern (or blatant pop culture references, sigh). FFXV also had a couple of issues in that regard, but nothing substantial in comparison - the differences between Regis' accent/dialogue and Noctis' modern dialogue and American accent is still a headscratcher. Positively for FFXV,
I dragged out some of my folk music from the 1500s onwards for a quick skim, and it was nice to have some context from earlier in the thread why some lines would have been phrased in such a way, I'd previously just zoned out and taken them at face value. A lot of it was written in the 1500s/1600s/1700s/etc, so I know someone would have come along and updated the words (and possibly the music) a century or two later so it's more understandable, and obviously the words aren't 100% historically accurate anymore. Still, WotL's localization does feel downright contained in comparison to some of the words I was skimming earlier, it's all wonderfully flowery. WotL's dialogue does feel tonally appropriate for what they were going for, and in some ways is probably waaaaaaaay more modern (by a few centuries) than the equivalent time period. I guess WotL's dialogue feels more from the Georgian era, maybe even earlier again? Maybe more Elizabethan? I have no idea.
I really enjoy the WotL localization because on top of some fantastic dialogue, it is tonally consistent and almost grounded. I feel like it created its own little realized world that the player got to step into, which enhanced the strong foundation from the original Japanese version. I really do appreciate the tonal consistency throughout WotL. On the other hand, Fire Emblem Fates really annoyed me with the back and forth dissonance with dialogue, as some characters had dialogue that was styled to be more archaic, and then other characters would have lines of dialogue that were extremely modern (or blatant pop culture references, sigh). FFXV also had a couple of issues in that regard, but nothing substantial in comparison - the differences between Regis' accent/dialogue and Noctis' modern dialogue and American accent is still a headscratcher. Positively for FFXV,
Ardyn's prolonged pontificating and slightly archaic style makes a lot of sense for the context of his backstory. Even though there are a some lines of his that I find really clunky, it was a really clever and character appropriate choice.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
FF Tactics is probably my favorite video game, and certainly by far my most replayed. I'm also quite fond of the WOLK script, though at times I did feel it was a bit too ornate -- I like FF12's 'balance' (or moderation) of Elizabethan influence a bit more. That said, it's quite enjoyable to read through WOTL nonetheless for me.
That said, I do think it's a fair criticism to go after it as.... unnecessary? Pretentious is a little rude and assuming, I think, but still, I do think it's at least fair to debate it simply because it's not the original script. To my knowledge, the original Japanese script was in no where meant to take influence from Elizabethan area, nor obviously was the original translation. So, in the sense that it's not how the game was originally designed or envisioned to be, I do think it's fair to question whether it was necessary to add it after the fact, and to what purpose does it serve.
If the original writer and designer had come out and said that this is his director's cut, for example... this is how he originally envisioned Ivalice, then that's one thing. But when it's after the fact so much, with the game already having established Japanese and English original translation, and it's a rather distinct third-party (to the original designers) making this decision, I don't think it's unfair to debate their intention.
Again, pretentious is a bit insulting or assuming, I think, but there could be an argument for it being unnecessary -- I don't agree myself but I'd at least listen to the argument.
I like the decision, personally, because I've played the game over 15 times so for me the variety is fun and refreshing lol. But if I were to recommend the game to someone for the first time, I may recommend the original script just because maybe that's the one that better captures the original version of the game -- that's the one the designers signed off on. The new one to me is more of a wonderful, but alternative, script.
I do think it was was necessary, welcomed, and certainly not pretentious (unless we're now shaming any sort of dialect other than modern English). But I would at least say I'm open to debating whether it was necessary simply because, unlike FF12 at least, it was done after the fact -- there is 'after the fact' motivation to consider and whether that new motivation genuinely serves the original designer's vision or not.
That said, I do think it's a fair criticism to go after it as.... unnecessary? Pretentious is a little rude and assuming, I think, but still, I do think it's at least fair to debate it simply because it's not the original script. To my knowledge, the original Japanese script was in no where meant to take influence from Elizabethan area, nor obviously was the original translation. So, in the sense that it's not how the game was originally designed or envisioned to be, I do think it's fair to question whether it was necessary to add it after the fact, and to what purpose does it serve.
If the original writer and designer had come out and said that this is his director's cut, for example... this is how he originally envisioned Ivalice, then that's one thing. But when it's after the fact so much, with the game already having established Japanese and English original translation, and it's a rather distinct third-party (to the original designers) making this decision, I don't think it's unfair to debate their intention.
Again, pretentious is a bit insulting or assuming, I think, but there could be an argument for it being unnecessary -- I don't agree myself but I'd at least listen to the argument.
I like the decision, personally, because I've played the game over 15 times so for me the variety is fun and refreshing lol. But if I were to recommend the game to someone for the first time, I may recommend the original script just because maybe that's the one that better captures the original version of the game -- that's the one the designers signed off on. The new one to me is more of a wonderful, but alternative, script.
I do think it was was necessary, welcomed, and certainly not pretentious (unless we're now shaming any sort of dialect other than modern English). But I would at least say I'm open to debating whether it was necessary simply because, unlike FF12 at least, it was done after the fact -- there is 'after the fact' motivation to consider and whether that new motivation genuinely serves the original designer's vision or not.
That's a weird way to describe this situation given the facts...
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Sorry maybe there was more involvement by the original Quest guys that I know of.
It was just my understanding the WOLK script is wildly different than even the Japanese version of WOLK (what I mean is, the JPN ver. of WOTL is similar to the original JPN script; only the new ENG version deviates extremely -- is that incorrect?), and it was presumably a decision made independent of anyone in charge of the original FFT script. I thought Yoshida was probably still there but otherwise the main script guys (or director or producer who would have signed off on the english translation) were different.
But...if you take all of the Ivalice games, the OG translation is the one that is out of place.
Admiral Snackbar
Member
I vastly prefer the retranslation and I played the PS1 version many times over back in the day. I'll take stage-drama and verbose rants over goofily incorrect translations any day.
I'd say that all the Ivalice translations (barring OG FFT) *are* actually consistent with one another.
The difference is in character diversity - manners of speaking are dependant upon social class and background.
In FFXII, there's a huge range of backgrounds. The Archadian nobility speak like the English nobility, or beyond even that into the Elizabethan (especially with some Judges), or simply posh schoolboy ala Larsa. The Archadian middle and working classes similarly reflect the English middle and working classes, ala Balthier and regular soldiers respectively.
Same for Dalmasca and the US, with the nobility there pretty solidly mid-Atlantic, and Vaan and Penelo sounding like regular Americans.
The difference with FFT is that the main characters are all from a culturally much smaller world, and are mostly all nobles. So we get a much heavier emphasis on what we heard from the Judges in XII, but it's still consistent.
The difference is in character diversity - manners of speaking are dependant upon social class and background.
In FFXII, there's a huge range of backgrounds. The Archadian nobility speak like the English nobility, or beyond even that into the Elizabethan (especially with some Judges), or simply posh schoolboy ala Larsa. The Archadian middle and working classes similarly reflect the English middle and working classes, ala Balthier and regular soldiers respectively.
Same for Dalmasca and the US, with the nobility there pretty solidly mid-Atlantic, and Vaan and Penelo sounding like regular Americans.
The difference with FFT is that the main characters are all from a culturally much smaller world, and are mostly all nobles. So we get a much heavier emphasis on what we heard from the Judges in XII, but it's still consistent.
FFT was originally translated in a scenario where the original staff have no input on the localization. Same as FFVII. The translation is ridden with errors, not just poorly translated lines, but actual errors where the wrong characters are referenced and it makes the plot less logical. Literal mistakes. There are even grammatical errors in the opening cinematic. It's bad.
Post-FFT, Matsuno has worked very closely with Alexander O Smith in localizing all his games. They have a close working relationship, and the language style used is reflected even in the Japanese versions of the game. So this is clearly his authorial intent. This includes Vagrant Story, FFXII, and Tactics Ogre: LUCT.
FFT WotL is a project that did not involve any of the original staff. Neither the Japanese or English version was under the supervision of any from the original team. So to specifically criticize the localization for being not "faithful" because it did not involve the creators is strange, given how the entire game exists by nature of being an interpretation of what would make the original game better, without the involvement of the creators in particular. Much like the Japanese development of the remake, the localization tries to follow the established standard and tone of Ivalice set before it.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I agree, and I stand corrected on the WOTL translation being closest to authorial intent.
I'd think I'd still be open to argument over whether it needed to be quite so ornate... For example, closer to XII or LUCT. I need to re-emphasize from my first post that I wouldn't support the argument (as a gamer I love the WOLT script), but (as a producer) I'd consider and enjoy reading arguments against it if only just from the point of view of managing 'form versus style.'
But at the same time, there could even be some worth in how heavy the dialect is in WOTL. With the notion that XII and WOLT are the same world, it could be some service of world building by having different 'ornateness' (at risk of overusing that word) -- different heaviness in its dialect -- based on different times in Ivalice's history, not unlike English's own history.
I still find it vaguely amusing that a then-current "oh noes" slipped into FFXII's otherwise-lauded localisation.