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Forza 4 |OT| Where Porsche Are Driven
- Thread starter G Rom
- Start date
I'm ok with 30 FPS if they keep that F*CKIN' AWESOME motion blur.
This is true. A lot of times I actually prefer what they did with PGR4 to a lot of console-based 60fps titles where there have been some ridiculous compromises. I'm yet to play a title anywhere that's incorporated motion blur (either at 30 or 60fps, even with PC titles) as well as it did.
The fact that you can fire it up now and it literally still looks like it's a year or two old at the most speaks volumes.
Why not wish for stunning city environments and weather at 60fps? We are talking powerful new hardware here.
30 fps should really never be an option. Ever. Really. Come on guys.
Despite I was extremely positively surprised with "late-gen" 30fps driving games - Forza Horizon, NASCAR and Ferrari Racing Legends comes to mind - I still have hard time going back to both games after 60fps sessions. Especially with the wheel.
I learned how both Horizon and FRL are using the special novelty technique where actual physics are separated from graphics engine thus 30fps is rock-solid and have great IQ (that technique should be also used on this-gen console release of pCARS - I have no confirmation that Eutechnyx used it for NASCAR, but there is also some great fluidity despite it being 30fps game). But I would also give everything for getting all three games in 60fps.
Same for PGR. I do not know when was the last time you actually booted it, but despite it still looks gorgeous - both PGR3 and PGR4 - it is really cringeworthy to drive it and cry about how great it would look if they managed to do it in higher-resolution and 60fps. I would literally pay 100 euros for proper 720p/60fps next-gen upscaled PGR3/PGR4 combo release (with proper FFB support).
I still can't accept how GT5 went to 30fps for replays (despite post-processing effects) because it just doesn't look natural. It just doesn't.
However, everything suggests how next-gen multicores and fast RAM will be approx 8X more powerful then this gen. And since we have already reached astonishing level of modelling, post-processing effects, lightning, shading, parallel ambient-engines and IQ during this gen for driving games, I am pretty sure how driving genre will bloom on the next-gen.
All genuine FM4 car-models (especially DLC ones - when I say "FM4" I think about models done for FM4, not ones ported from FM2/FM3) are simply gorgeous. GT5 Premium models are category of its own (most superior shading ever) and surprisingly good work was done for pCARS/Shift 2/Ferrari Racing Legends models that SMS has produced through past years. I also have to mention astonishing job made by Eutechnyx guys for NASCAR games (both cars and tracks, tracks looks really perfect). I can't even fathom how they really look like before downscale and when lightened and shaded in full-effect.
This generation gave us even HDR during gameplay (cockpit during Nurburging GP track in GT5 most notably), not even to mention what Polyphony achieved in 2008 for GT5
rologue during infamous "garage sequences" (basic HDR ray tracing in 1080p/60 fps) which was unfortunately dropped down for GT5 release.
Next generation will be heaven for racing games. GT5 is the best showcase of what can be done when current power is used properly (16 cars on track, real-time HDR, real-time effects of flames and brakes, real-time particle effects, real-time smoke, daytime/weather, real-time ambiance lighting with lens-flaring, animated rain with physics properties, animated drivers, movable objects in cockpits, animated vehicles (aerodynamic parts, suspensions and real-time crumble damage), on-tracks physics (side-track objects, real-time wind simulation, real-time skid marks..), pit-crew AI, real-time vehicle properties (mechanical damage, tyre and fuel), real-time track properties that influence vehicles and weather-engine (temperature, air humidity, track temperature, surface humidity..), real-time weather properties (rain changes into light snow for instance on SSR7 track or clear weather changes to light snow and to blizzard on Chamonix..), ambiance effects (fireworks) - all that during actual gameplay in 1280p/60 fps) while same can be said for astonishing work Codemasters done for their F1 engine, despite 30fps and plethora of gameplay bugs - which actually does so many things in real-time for 24 vehicles that I still can't beleive they managed to port it for 512MB of RAM.
Other genres will profit immensely, but I am sure driving genre will profit most. This generation is clear showcase of things to come and I can't wait to witness Forza Motorsport 5 for the first time - I think it will be the first actual next-gen consoles simulator on the market - and see what will new power actually bring. It will be nothing but glorious IMO
Despite I was extremely positively surprised with "late-gen" 30fps driving games - Forza Horizon, NASCAR and Ferrari Racing Legends comes to mind - I still have hard time going back to both games after 60fps sessions. Especially with the wheel.
I learned how both Horizon and FRL are using the special novelty technique where actual physics are separated from graphics engine thus 30fps is rock-solid and have great IQ (that technique should be also used on this-gen console release of pCARS - I have no confirmation that Eutechnyx used it for NASCAR, but there is also some great fluidity despite it being 30fps game). But I would also give everything for getting all three games in 60fps.
Same for PGR. I do not know when was the last time you actually booted it, but despite it still looks gorgeous - both PGR3 and PGR4 - it is really cringeworthy to drive it and cry about how great it would look if they managed to do it in higher-resolution and 60fps. I would literally pay 100 euros for proper 720p/60fps next-gen upscaled PGR3/PGR4 combo release (with proper FFB support).
I still can't accept how GT5 went to 30fps for replays (despite post-processing effects) because it just doesn't look natural. It just doesn't.
However, everything suggests how next-gen multicores and fast RAM will be approx 8X more powerful then this gen. And since we have already reached astonishing level of modelling, post-processing effects, lightning, shading, parallel ambient-engines and IQ during this gen for driving games, I am pretty sure how driving genre will bloom on the next-gen.
All genuine FM4 car-models (especially DLC ones - when I say "FM4" I think about models done for FM4, not ones ported from FM2/FM3) are simply gorgeous. GT5 Premium models are category of its own (most superior shading ever) and surprisingly good work was done for pCARS/Shift 2/Ferrari Racing Legends models that SMS has produced through past years. I also have to mention astonishing job made by Eutechnyx guys for NASCAR games (both cars and tracks, tracks looks really perfect). I can't even fathom how they really look like before downscale and when lightened and shaded in full-effect.
This generation gave us even HDR during gameplay (cockpit during Nurburging GP track in GT5 most notably), not even to mention what Polyphony achieved in 2008 for GT5
rologue during infamous "garage sequences" (basic HDR ray tracing in 1080p/60 fps) which was unfortunately dropped down for GT5 release. Next generation will be heaven for racing games. GT5 is the best showcase of what can be done when current power is used properly (16 cars on track, real-time HDR, real-time effects of flames and brakes, real-time particle effects, real-time smoke, daytime/weather, real-time ambiance lighting with lens-flaring, animated rain with physics properties, animated drivers, movable objects in cockpits, animated vehicles (aerodynamic parts, suspensions and real-time crumble damage), on-tracks physics (side-track objects, real-time wind simulation, real-time skid marks..), pit-crew AI, real-time vehicle properties (mechanical damage, tyre and fuel), real-time track properties that influence vehicles and weather-engine (temperature, air humidity, track temperature, surface humidity..), real-time weather properties (rain changes into light snow for instance on SSR7 track or clear weather changes to light snow and to blizzard on Chamonix..), ambiance effects (fireworks) - all that during actual gameplay in 1280p/60 fps) while same can be said for astonishing work Codemasters done for their F1 engine, despite 30fps and plethora of gameplay bugs - which actually does so many things in real-time for 24 vehicles that I still can't beleive they managed to port it for 512MB of RAM.
Other genres will profit immensely, but I am sure driving genre will profit most. This generation is clear showcase of things to come and I can't wait to witness Forza Motorsport 5 for the first time - I think it will be the first actual next-gen consoles simulator on the market - and see what will new power actually bring. It will be nothing but glorious IMO
Yep. Even though Horizon was absolutely great in it's 30fps implementation, a sim racer like GT or Forza needs and is all the better for it in 60fps guise...
Just a question, what's actually involved in porting old gen to next gen assets?
I mean, how much work is needed to bring in a vehicle for example?
Just a question, what's actually involved in porting old gen to next gen assets?
I mean, how much work is needed to bring in a vehicle for example?
Both vehicles and tracks (geometry and objects) are basically 3D mashes. The current generation modelling really managed to do unbelievable level of detailing for both exterior and interiors of vehicles as well as for tracks.
What will visually separate this generation and next generation are mainly shaders and lightning and implementation of real-time physical damage on vehicles (we still have to learn about actual scope of advancement made on that area, this generation left that portion out of the games almost completely, despite we know it exists on actual models).
From what I've have examined, both Forza and GT really have many, many vehicle models that are really modelled to insane detail. What will really determine their "usability" is groundwork on things we couldn't see during this generation: how are the actual chassis surfaces made to reflect HDR lightning, what are the properties of shaders under HDR, what is the actual level of deformation properties on chassis (GT5 already have real-time physical damage fro chassis - non pre-baked - that is physics-based, but PD significantly toned it down due to questionable results it produced during early times of GT5), etc.
But IMO, great majority of genuine FM4 car-models (especially DLC ones) and almost all of GT5 Premium models can be ported to next-gen without any problems.
I'd be even more disappointed if PGR5 wasn't on the agenda. Would make it the first Microsoft console to NOT debut with a PGR game at launch. Think about it.
Also, they don't need to have a system seller at launch, because people will buy it because it's new. They need it around a year after it's been out, once hype has died down. FM5 will be that system seller, PGR5 will be the stylish, fun arcadeish racer to give the uber-casuals something other than an FPS to play.
4? Last week. I shit you not. Hell, I'm going to fire it up right now! But like you said, if I was playing it at 60fps I'd love it even more, but as it is, it's a great example of what can be done without having to hold itself over a barrel to maintain such a high framerate. I honestly have no doubt that a next-gen equivalent could be knocked out of the park by Playground if they were given the resources to do it (I'm thinking more the background work, such as travelling to different locations and modelling different cities... something that made the series shine over basically every other driving game up until that point).
Wouldn't the work-load be huge though?
I mean, Turn 10 working on PGR 5 for a Christmas release and FM5 the year after that?
How could they manage?
Throw in Horizon 2 into the mix as well..
Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to see a whole bunch of racers in a relatively short amount of time but wouldn't quality,focus suffer as a result?
I mean, Turn 10 working on PGR 5 for a Christmas release and FM5 the year after that?
How could they manage?
Throw in Horizon 2 into the mix as well..
Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to see a whole bunch of racers in a relatively short amount of time but wouldn't quality,focus suffer as a result?
You sound like you don't want PGR5. And besides... why would we want Turn 10 working on it when Playground is mostly made up of ex-Bizarre employees? I never mentioned T10 touching the franchise
Yuppers.Of course 60 FPS is better than 30 FPS, and it's crucial in a sim racer. What I'm saying is that I'm ok with 30 FPS (again: with that bold motion blur effect) on a more arcadey game.
I really think we will not see new PGR ever again. Honestly. I mean, I would love to, but somehow, everything points-out how MS decided to focus on "Forza" brand and how potential "Urban Horizon" would be some theoretical PGR-successor. I would love to be wrong though.
Also I would love to be wrong about complete future of Horizon series, because sales are really underwhelming and I have no idea is the current 1M enough to justify the future for the FH from eyes of MS white-collars. I hope it is.
As for idea about "giving resources to Playground to travel in order to capture locations and cities for PGR-successor", there is no real need for that. Quality of cities and modelling of PGR2/PGR3/PGR4 is so great that I think we can only imagine about the vastness of materials (photos/videos/etc) that Bizzare collected during 2001-2007. I mean, quality of architectural details in PGR3/PGR4 is not yet surpassed anywhere in the genre, even broader. Just go into photomode in Macau or St. Petersburg (or any other location, whatever) and admire the details. Closest was rendition of London that PD did for GT5, but despite ambient-luminance of GT5 is better then PGR, actual details on buildings and fact how there are complete sections of the city modelled just makes PGR the winner. All the resources for building the next-gen game out of PGR archives are there, they just have to be re-rendered in 720/1080p with proper textures and shaders and lit with proper luminance.
Example:
4964 individual textures made for New York in PGR3 (seriously downscaled from original size)
1K textures for NY Firebrigade bulding for PGR3.
More about it here and here.
And PGR4 had even higher level of detail.
As I said multiple and multiple times, the actual PGR-series archives are the greatest single preservation-worthy archives of series that vanished in this generation. I can't even imagine what the guys who were making all those beautiful cities are feeling today when their work is only collecting static interference on some backup-drives.
All those beautiful assets, geometry, wireframes, models, textures and data needs to be preserved for future generations and reused by mean possible. Leaving all those to die qualifies for the single greatest injustice ever done in the history of the racing genre.
Again, this thread turns into a PGR love-in.
I'm not complaining <3
Pretty much all iterations were a marvel for their time, though. PGR1 at 60fps on the Xbox, PGR2 for the photorealistic locations, PGR3 for the somewhat unique method of using the existing framebuffer as a reflection map and PGR4 for the streaming technology that allowed them to create such high-detail locations.
I still remember reading somewhere that they said they would've included full day/night for all courses but they were hamstrung by disc sizes as well. So there's no reason the tech wouldn't be there to create full weather AND time-of-day for every single area.
It's like Bizarre did with the cities what Turn 10 did with all that excessive interior modeling of the cars in FM4. Basically they future-proofed them so they could be used in future iterations... except Bizarre never got the chance :/ You're right, it would be wasteful to not ever use those assets and their work again, even as a base for something new.
You have to wonder if there are plans for them at all, even just as a post-it note on a whiteboard somewhere. There must be a few staff at Playground who are excited about working with a developer that had previously worked so closely with Bizarre under MS' umbrella, not knowing just what kind of tech and assets they have access to.
I'm not complaining <3
Pretty much all iterations were a marvel for their time, though. PGR1 at 60fps on the Xbox, PGR2 for the photorealistic locations, PGR3 for the somewhat unique method of using the existing framebuffer as a reflection map and PGR4 for the streaming technology that allowed them to create such high-detail locations.
I still remember reading somewhere that they said they would've included full day/night for all courses but they were hamstrung by disc sizes as well. So there's no reason the tech wouldn't be there to create full weather AND time-of-day for every single area.
It's like Bizarre did with the cities what Turn 10 did with all that excessive interior modeling of the cars in FM4. Basically they future-proofed them so they could be used in future iterations... except Bizarre never got the chance :/ You're right, it would be wasteful to not ever use those assets and their work again, even as a base for something new.
You have to wonder if there are plans for them at all, even just as a post-it note on a whiteboard somewhere. There must be a few staff at Playground who are excited about working with a developer that had previously worked so closely with Bizarre under MS' umbrella, not knowing just what kind of tech and assets they have access to.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Any news at all about a "Complete Edition" for Forza 4? I've been holding off buying it due to this, but it's been over a year now and there hasn't been a peep.
because at 30 fps those environments and weather would be even more stunning. i agree with other though, fm5 NEEDS to be 60. but PGR looked great at 30 and motion blur, and i'd be happy with that solution again.
I'll never be able to agree with this. What's the logic here?
(I didn't mean that to sound rude - I'm genuinely interested how 30fps can ever look better than 60fps (and the fluidity of motion and preservation of image clarity that comes with it)).
Spaceman Spiff
Member
Framerate shmamerate, The Beard and his minions need only give me rain, Spa, and a Zonda F in Forza 5.
What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall of T10's offices right about now...
What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall of T10's offices right about now...
NullPointer
Member
Hardware being equal you'll always be able to get far more effects on screen at 30fps than 60fps.
Horizon taught me that I don't mind 30fps if its absolutely, positively locked. As a long time framerate whore this was a shocking development.
whats the logic here? you can cram more effects and geometry in 30 frames per second then 60. its as simple as that. yeah, its not as smooth in motion, but its more then adequet for most eyes, especially when coupled with motion blur - which will likely be even more advanced next gen. i understand some think the fluidity of 60 frames each second presents its own benefits towards the overall visuals, but to ask what the logic is is simply crazy. its plain as day. only thing left to argue is which is more important, more details and effects, or smoother motion?
sCHOCOLATE
Member
For a game simulating motorsports...smoother motion.
yup, thats certainly a valid opinion
honestly, i almost agree. if fm5 was 30 fps i'd scream bloody murder. but i'm a bit more forgiving for arcade racers. i will add though that if pgr5 does release, and its 60 fps, i certainly wont complain that its not 30 with better graphics.
sCHOCOLATE
Member
Who can argue with the developers of many of the game industry's most recognized series?yup, thats certainly a valid opinion
Virtua Racing
Daytona USA 1 and 2
Sega Rally Championship 1 and 2
Indy 500
Ferrari F355 Challenge
As I remember when I last played them many moons ago. Those and many more like them were all 60 fps. 60 fps has been the benchmark for the highest profile racing games for some time.
I don't have to validate opinion with an anonymous forum personality. Prominent game developers in the past(early 90's onwards) have gone on record to state 60 fps is the "Grail" for racing simulations. And having played those games during their debut and many titles running either 30 fps or 60 fps since, I find the motorsports simulation experience much more convincing at 60 fps.
You're more than welcome to do the research legwork if you're so inclined. Keywords: Yu Suzuki or Sega AM2 for starters.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Pretty sure Virtua Racing was 30fps.
get out of here, are you serious? i said you had a valid opinion, don't act like mine isnt. the research bit especially. ho wlong do you think i've been gaming young man?
Booted up FM5 for the first time in months recently, but was soon very, very bored by driving the same old circuits. It's been said a million times before, but it truly is a Crime Against Gaming that MS/Turn 10 didn't support this aspect of the game post-release, and just kept churning out car after car after car after car...
So fucking imbalanced.
I'm 95% through the career grid but can't see myself ever finishing it.
So fucking imbalanced.
I'm 95% through the career grid but can't see myself ever finishing it.
Dzidza1978
Member
I'll give you 100 if you lend me F5 :-D.
Waste of 100 if you were looking to drive around Bathurst.
evil_as_skeletor
Member
Hey guys, I've encountered a little error.
I am trying to access my vinyl groups in FM4, but after it attempting to load them for 1/2 a second, it goes into the "saving content" loop.
It might be important to mention that I had played a friends copy of Horizon and imported my vinyl groups to that game. I haven't played FM4 since then (early dec), and am only speculating, but I think that may have caused this.
Anyone else have this happen, and is there a way out?
My Designs load and display as normal, it's just my vinyl groups that won't load.
Ps I know that using the XB guide button and signing out forces it to stop this loop and back out to the main title screen without too much of a problem, I just want to know if my VGs are toast...
Sorry guys. After leaving it doing what it was doing for close to an hour after trying to save a new vinyl, it finally came good again. Weird, but it appears to be ok now.
I am trying to access my vinyl groups in FM4, but after it attempting to load them for 1/2 a second, it goes into the "saving content" loop.
It might be important to mention that I had played a friends copy of Horizon and imported my vinyl groups to that game. I haven't played FM4 since then (early dec), and am only speculating, but I think that may have caused this.
Anyone else have this happen, and is there a way out?
My Designs load and display as normal, it's just my vinyl groups that won't load.
Ps I know that using the XB guide button and signing out forces it to stop this loop and back out to the main title screen without too much of a problem, I just want to know if my VGs are toast...
Sorry guys. After leaving it doing what it was doing for close to an hour after trying to save a new vinyl, it finally came good again. Weird, but it appears to be ok now.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
http://s1326.beta.photobucket.com/user/Jon_ev/media/0112132136_zps8493f82d.jpg.html
Looks like boring shit to me. Not even a proper GOTY edition.
CrudeDiatribe
Member
There's no shitty new FM4 release with all the DLC+exclusives?
That's fantastic. I was really annoyed with the FM3 Collector's Edition with those three sports cars in 'The Stig Car Pack'.
That's fantastic. I was really annoyed with the FM3 Collector's Edition with those three sports cars in 'The Stig Car Pack'.
:-/ Still, a proper GOTY release would have been great.
Shortt Sirket
Member
I agree man! Been wanting to get one of my friends into this game but I have been holding off buying it for him hoping for a proper GOTY edition.
Btw, has anyone had their Event List races disappear? I haven't played F4 in a while and when I went back to play there are almost no checks anymore. I know I hadn't finished them all, but I know I had more than 10 checked. Kinda curious what happened...
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Can you sell on gifted cars?
I've got no credits but plenty of cars iirc.
I've got no credits but plenty of cars iirc.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
Anyone actually booted up Forza 2 in a while? I wonder how that game looks these days...
drugstore_cowboy
Member
It looks ok, I prefer the FoV, the physics are solid too.
In some ways it shows how little the series has progressed though. Removal of LAN play after F2 was a bad move.
In some ways it shows how little the series has progressed though. Removal of LAN play after F2 was a bad move.
If you put up an expensive car or something for like 1 credit I could re-sell it or something. If you're interested let me know, would help a lot. Gamer tag is Battle At Sea.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Gifted some cars, they should give you a few million, resale value is quite poor in F2. Turned out most of my cars were won and worthless.
I did started playing not so long ago to be honest. It was my first time so watching Porsche in F2 and getting a penalty for doing a not so clean race were all new to me.
Shortt Sirket
Member
I will try to to add you tonight.
Thanks!!
Wow, haven't played this game in a while. But after watching this video of a 911 GT3 RS 4.0, it made me go back and play FM4 again and run some hotlaps of my own. Still an amazing game!
Watched some of my saved replays and man I've had a lot of some good and close racing on XBL. Tried to take a video of this one using my camera, Amuro Ray against a taxi cab lol.
Watched some of my saved replays and man I've had a lot of some good and close racing on XBL. Tried to take a video of this one using my camera, Amuro Ray against a taxi cab lol.