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[Stinkles]

Wii U and 3DS already solved this problem without any need for full game installs. Patches contain only the delta, and files in the patch can supersede files on the disc/cartridge.

Sure, but then you have to manufacture and build a version of the game specifically to meet those criteria rather than port equitably across multiple formats. I suppose in theory that could mean a better version, with faster read speeds, but it still creates dev barriers that aren't consumer-friendly either.

And again, this is 100% imagination at this point. I think they'll go optical.

 

[CertifiedFP]

Licensing, manufacturing costs, storage, manufacturing SCHEDULES and more (what happens when your modern AAA game gets delayed or needs a huge title update on day one - may not be popular but that's the reality in the footprint of today's software). Unless they offer open manufacture - SD cards for example, but then you still have cost and storage to deal with. Not to mention title updates - would they sit on an HDD? In which case why have cartridges if the data has to be read off an HDD anyway? Optical media is much cheaper to print.

And that also means making "versions" of the game based on ROM footprint rather than the "natural" footprint of the game.

All of these can be overcome, but all of them are unattractive to third parties. Nintendo stands to benefit the most from that approach.

Anyway, it's speculation about speculation at this point.

None of this has been a problem for 3rd-party developers on the 3DS nor the Vita (lol, Vita).

Besides, there is the matter that the NX will more than likely have a Console version and Handheld version if speculation holds true (Though it is questionable now that almost all the BOTW rumors were dead-wrong.), with both systems sharing the same library with the same physical media.

You're not going to slot a Blu-Ray into a handheld, are you? Of course not. Optical media on handhelds doesn't work - Ask the PSP.

 

[b3b0p]

No moving parts?

If this possibly makes it such that consoles will once again last as long and be as rugged as the retro classics (NES, SNES, Genesis, Game Boy, etc...)

I'm down.

 

[10k]

They specifically mention new hardware in their statements about the 4th Quarter. Whether that means making carts or some other internal ROM is a question mark.

Vita 2 confirmed.

 

[CertifiedFP]

No moving parts?

If this possibly makes it such that consoles will once again last as long and be as rugged as the retro classics (NES, SNES, Genesis, Game Boy, etc...)

I'm down.

This too.

I've seen so many PS2s and Xbox 360's with failed disc drives in my time.

Less moving parts means one less Single-Point-of-Failure to worry about.

 

[10k]

Licensing, manufacturing costs, storage, manufacturing SCHEDULES and more (what happens when your modern AAA game gets delayed or needs a huge title update on day one - may not be popular but that's the reality in the footprint of today's software). Unless they offer open manufacture - SD cards for example, but then you still have cost and storage to deal with. Not to mention title updates - would they sit on an HDD? In which case why have cartridges if the data has to be read off an HDD anyway? Optical media is much cheaper to print.

And that also means making "versions" of the game based on ROM footprint rather than the "natural" footprint of the game.

All of these can be overcome, but all of them are unattractive to third parties. Nintendo stands to benefit the most from that approach.

Anyway, it's speculation about speculation at this point.

Sure, but then you have to manufacture and build a version of the game specifically to meet those criteria rather than port equitably across multiple formats. I suppose in theory that could mean a better version, with faster read speeds, but it still creates dev barriers that aren't consumer-friendly either.

And again, this is 100% imagination at this point. I think they'll go optical.

The dream is dead

 

[geordiemp]

I wouldn't go to a pr person for technical of financial advice
just saying

And if a dev of a large AAA game franchise chips in with some info on GAF, he might be wiser than you or me will ever be in gaming..Especially if you are trying to work out how 3rd parties would take to it,.....read and learn something maybe.

The dream is dead

God I love your Avatar quote....that is something earned. I agree, no modern 3rd party is going to play ball with a system running games that is not from HD. How the game is put on HD is not a concern - does not matter if HD is loaded from disk or cart..

 

[Sorcerer]

I wonder why he made that obvious statement as a retailer...

Because it helps his business if physical media is a thing. He also could not help mentioning how he is looking forward to the used game sales from Nintendo's new system.

Other than that, Nintendo is not in any position to cut out retail.

 

[Stinkles]

None of this has been a problem for 3rd-party developers on the 3DS nor the Vita (lol, Vita).

Besides, there is the matter that the NX will more than likely have a Console version and Handheld version if speculation holds true (Though it is questionable now that almost all the BOTW rumors were dead-wrong.), with both systems sharing the same library with the same physical media.

You're not going to slot a Blu-Ray into a handheld, are you? Of course not. Optical media on handhelds doesn't work - Ask the PSP.

Of course it's not a problem if you're making specific games for dedicated systems. The DS versions of third party games are usually very different. The third party renaissance I mentioned would be AAA 3rd party parity.

There's nothing about what I'm saying that affects the quality of software 3rd parties could create, just the type of commitment.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Oh I agree, I remember small patches on 360 (cant remember my Wii lol) and games running from disk. Thats when Patch was a ...patch...

But this gen, those 15 GB patches, different ball game, they are almost re download the whole bloody game. God I have downloaded 30 GB patches...lol

Only way that works is if games run from HD otherwise its no major western support imo.

The size of the patch is irrelevant. The same systems would still work just fine.

Licensing, manufacturing costs, storage, manufacturing SCHEDULES and more (what happens when your modern AAA game gets delayed or needs a huge title update on day one - may not be popular but that's the reality in the footprint of today's software). Unless they offer open manufacture - SD cards for example, but then you still have cost and storage to deal with. Not to mention title updates - would they sit on an HDD? In which case why have cartridges if the data has to be read off an HDD anyway? Optical media is much cheaper to print.

And that also means making "versions" of the game based on ROM footprint rather than the "natural" footprint of the game.

All of these can be overcome, but all of them are unattractive to third parties. Nintendo stands to benefit the most from that approach.

Anyway, it's speculation about speculation at this point.

Storage space is a non-issue. Modern carts could be 64 GB or even bigger. They actually end up more flexible with respect to size, since size doesn't matter as much to the reading mechanism.

Cost would be an issue, yes, but when many games would need to have a cart for their handheld version anyway, the price advantage starts going away a bit.

Also, I was under the impression that Nintendo is the only one who can produce discs for their consoles now, since they don't use standard discs.

Sure, but then you have to manufacture and build a version of the game specifically to meet those criteria rather than port equitably across multiple formats. I suppose in theory that could mean a better version, with faster read speeds, but it still creates dev barriers that aren't consumer-friendly either.

And again, this is 100% imagination at this point. I think they'll go optical.

Is there any popular system that doesn't use delta patching? Because if not, it seems like the difference would mostly be an implementation thing.

 

[whatevermort]

How much does a 64gb SD card cost to manufacture? Because we have to assume that if it's a cartridge, it's basically an SD card in a bigger box.

 

[Pokemaniac]

How much does a 64gb SD card cost to manufacture? Because we have to assume that if it's a cartridge, it's basically an SD card in a bigger box.

It's more likely it'd just be a higher capacity 3DS cart, which use simpler write-once ROM memory.

 

[Pancake Mix]

- Capacity at least matching BD-ROM, probably exceeding BD-XL in the long run

So? 32 and 64 GB chips will be quite significantly more expensive to manufacture, if Macronix has even developed them in the format Nintendo uses.

 

[Pokemaniac]

So? 32 and 64 GB chips will be quite significantly more expensive to manufacture, if Macronix has even developed them in the format Nintendo uses.

DS carts went up to 512MB. 3DS carts go up to 8GB. The same jump for NX would bring it up to 128GB.

Keep in mind that these are max sizes, which aren't used particularly often. Most games would ship on smaller carts.

Also, Nintendo is a HUGE customer of Macronix. If they want something, Macronix will build it.

 

[SmokedMeat]

So the NX will be like every other modern system.

 

[Illucio]

If Gamestop is estimating huge revenue from the NX months ago I'm pretty sure NX will have physical discs/cartridges.

 

[Pancake Mix]

DS carts went up to 512MB. 3DS carts go up to 8GB. The same jump for NX would bring it up to 128GB.

Keep in mind that these are max sizes, which aren't used particularly often. Most games would ship on smaller carts.

Also, Nintendo is a HUGE customer of Macronix. If they want something, Macronix will build it.

No 3DS game ever released on an 8 GB card. In fact, Xenoblade Chronicles 3D had the Japanese voices removed to fit. Let's be real here, ALL games would ship on smaller carts, even if 64 GB cards were developed.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

No 3DS game ever released on an 8 GB card. In fact, Xenoblade Chronicles 3D had the Japanese voices removed to fit. Let's be real here, ALL games would ship on smaller carts, even if 64 GB cards were developed.

I don' think it's a cost issue, I think it was a firmware limitation. To accept >4GB, Nintendo would have had to rewrite their file system as they use FAT32 for the 3DS.

 

[Pokemaniac]

No 3DS game ever released on an 8 GB card. In fact, Xenoblade Chronicles 3D had the Japanese voices removed to fit. Let's be real here, ALL games would ship on smaller carts, even if 64 GB cards were developed.

Multiple sources have suggested that the 8GB tier exists. If I had to guess, the actual reason why it's not used is because putting anything >4GB on the 3DS eShop would be... complicated due to the 3DS using FAT32.

In any case, in the context of this example, even if the 128GB carts aren't used at all, that still leaves us with 64GB carts which would actually be used, so I don't see the issue.

 

[nubbe]

I don' think it's a cost issue, I think it was a firmware limitation. To accept >4GB, Nintendo would have had to rewrite their file system as they use FAT32 for the 3DS.

Right, Even if a FAT32 volume can be 2TB, the file can only be 4GB
a fully linux based system would fix that

 

[Thraktor]

Macronix seems like they are expecting quite a bit of business from Nintendo in their 4th Quarter this year. Enough that they expect it to be profitable, where it is usually their slowest quarter. They are also moving forward with their die shrink from 75nm NOR Flash used in the 3DS to a newer 32nm process, which would speed up the climb up to larger capacities.

Whether they are selling Nintendo cartridges or flash for some other reason is unknown, but there is enough smoke there for speculation.

Yeah, initially when I saw the Macronix reports, I read it as an indication that a new Nintendo handheld was on the way soon, but more recent evidence (particularly the significant drop in Nintendo's Wii U forecasts this FY, specifically citing the release of the NX) would suggest that what they're releasing in March is strictly a home console, and that any handheld companion would be released some time later. That being the case, it's certainly within the realm of possibility that a game-card based NX home console is the reason for Macronix's bullishness on Q4 revenues, but as you say it's hard to tell what kind of components they're supplying for Nintendo.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I don' think it's a cost issue, I think it was a firmware limitation. To accept >4GB, Nintendo would have had to rewrite their file system as they use FAT32 for the 3DS.

That's a good point, still....we've had games like Tales of the Abyss heavily compressed likely to avoid a higher capacity card. I think cost is a real issue regardless of file system limitations.

Multiple sources have suggested that the 8GB tier exists. If I had to guess, the actual reason why it's not used is because putting anything >4GB on the 3DS eShop would be... complicated due to the 3DS using FAT32.

In any case, in the context of this example, even if the 128GB carts aren't used at all, that still leaves us with 64GB carts which would actually be used, so I don't see the issue.

64 GB is prohibitively expensive and would not be used in 2017 when this thing is supposed to launch, ever.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Said it before but I think 16GB would be adequate for launch, big enough for any Nintendo game save XBX (I don't expect Zelda to be a huge size either)

 

[Pokemaniac]

That's a good point, still....we've had games like Tales of the Abyss heavily compressed likely to avoid a higher capacity card. I think cost is a real issue regardless of file system limitations.



64 GB is prohibitively expensive and would not be used in 2017, ever.

Prohibitively expensive based on what though? Past data seems to suggest that it should fall within the typical range that actually gets used. Remember that 2017 is 6 years after the 3DS launched.

Said it before but I think 16GB would be adequate for launch, big enough for any Nintendo game save XBX (I don't expect Zelda to be a huge size either)

If they've completely given up on 3rd party support, 16GB could get them started. Otherwise, they're going to need more than that.

 

[test_account]

About moving parts, there really arent that many moving parts in PS4 and Xbox One either now that games are being installed to the HDD. And if you install a SSD, you wont have any moving parts there either.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Prohibitively expensive based on what though? Past data seems to suggest that it should fall within the typical range that actually gets used. Remember that 2017 is 6 years after the 3DS launched.



If they've completely given up on 3rd party support, 16GB could get them started. Otherwise, they're going to need more than that.

Just Dance will be fine. If 3rd parties are determined to sell on NX they will make it work regardless, even if that means lower fidelity, which, if it isn't as capable as the other two, would be natural.

 

[Chittagong]

Cartridges fuck yeah!! N64 20th anniversary surprise

 

[Pokemaniac]

Just Dance will be fine. If 3rd parties are determined to sell on NX they will make it work regardless, even if that means lower fidelity, which, if it isn't as capable as the other two, would be natural.

The Wii U Just Dances would probably fit in 16GB, but only just barely. Those games have a ton of pre-rendered videos in them which drives the size up.

If Nintendo actually wants proper third party support, though, 16GB is laughably small.

 

[weepy]

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't cartridges have physical limitations i.e. storage space and whatnot?

 

[CorrisD]

The size of the patch is irrelevant. The same systems would still work just fine.



Storage space is a non-issue. Modern carts could be 64 GB or even bigger. They actually end up more flexible with respect to size, since size doesn't matter as much to the reading mechanism.

Cost would be an issue, yes, but when many games would need to have a cart for their handheld version anyway, the price advantage starts going away a bit.

Also, I was under the impression that Nintendo is the only one who can produce discs for their consoles now, since they don't use standard discs.



Is there any popular system that doesn't use delta patching? Because if not, it seems like the difference would mostly be an implementation thing.

The systems can use delta patching, that doesn't mean they always do, games add content through patches too, I've seen some digital games make you redownload the whole game again due to changed content.

There's also the whole digital thing that is really where we are heading, so while flash drives for games might be a thing for the future, the advantage of consoles not needing a storage system because they are using a cartridge isn't a valid one. They want you to have storage space and they want you to buy lots of games, that's not to say we might not go flash in the future, it has advantages, but it costs more currently and to Sony/MS the media cost vs hard drive cost is one they must be fine with.

 

[Kyonashi]

This is an interesting thread to read in hindsight.

 

[Rellik]

Strange bump.

 

[panama chief]

How do you even find a thread buried so deep and respond as if the convo is still ongoing?

On topic: we'll never have an all digital console. Not until wifi is a free, worldwide service.

 

[Dunkley]

The systems can use delta patching, that doesn't mean they always do, games add content through patches too, I've seen some digital games make you redownload the whole game again due to changed content.

There's also the whole digital thing that is really where we are heading, so while flash drives for games might be a thing for the future, the advantage of consoles not needing a storage system because they are using a cartridge isn't a valid one. They want you to have storage space and they want you to buy lots of games, that's not to say we might not go flash in the future, it has advantages, but it costs more currently and to Sony/MS the media cost vs hard drive cost is one they must be fine with.

270 days later, you sure showed them.

 

[Shanlei91]

Gamestop was right. I'll celebrate by renewing my PowerUp membership card today.

 

[Forkball]

Someone should make an omnibus about NX rumors and news.