MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Important for Germany to do this. Fuck off Turkey.
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Germany officially recognizes Armenian genocide, Turkey pulls ambassador
- Thread starter Madness
- Start date
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Well, yeah, I'm all in favor of severing ties with the country until the government turns away from its current autocratic path. I hope the EU won't give in on the visa negotiations, they're currently refusing to give visa-free travel to Turkey because the government is refusing to stop its prosecution of critics as terrorists. Would be awful if the migrant-phobia that has gripped Europe would lead to them waiving that demand just to get that immigrant-limiting treaty going.
Frankfurter
Member
Good. Should have been recognized earlier, but anyway, better late than never.
Pretty "funny" that one Turkish politician claimed Germany tries to reduce its own guilt by "fabricating" other genocides, when Germany actually acknowledged that it's partly to blame too for being an ally and standing idly by.
Pretty "funny" that one Turkish politician claimed Germany tries to reduce its own guilt by "fabricating" other genocides, when Germany actually acknowledged that it's partly to blame too for being an ally and standing idly by.
the turkish attorney general Bekir Bozdağ even said that germany should look after its own history.
sorry for the german source but here:
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/...wegen-armenien-resolution-botschafter-zurueck
sorry for the german source but here:
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/...wegen-armenien-resolution-botschafter-zurueck
my own fast translation
iPaul93
Member
This guy needs to fuck off.It's not like Germany's denying the holocaust or anything.
Exactly. No country is perfect, but Germany at least have acknowledged their biggest crimes. Turkey could easily do the same: acknowledge their crimes, apologise, reconcile and move on as a better country.
Instead they decide to Streisand the fuck out of their genocidal history from ~100 years ago.
Well....sort of. The genocide of the Herero and Namara has not been recognized officially.
Orniletter
Banned
Yeah, their motivations are super transparent. You can literally see how they try to attack their way out.
Germany has done a lot of self-reflection after WW2, to the point where nationalism is...like...non-existent (compared to the other big western EU countries like france and the UK). Turkey not. What a dick.
What's that?
Genocide in Namibia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide
Was pretty shocked when I learned about it. Never heard about it in school
HazySaiyan
Banned
This guy can take his opinion and shove it up his arse. Germany has acknowledged the atrocities of the Holocaust and has made numerous apologies and amends for what they did. And as has been pointed out here they've even acknowledged the role they played in the Armenian genocide, which is more than can be said for Turkey.
can someone translate? I mean I guess it reads "hitler merkel blames turkey for everything" but it's just a guess because I don't speak the language >_>
ultratruman
Banned
This is a great way to show your objectivity
EdwardTivrusky
Member
You mean "Erdogan's Media", i bet they were told what to print... or else.
Orniletter
Banned
The Hitler stuff is so, so, so tired.
The greek press used to run with it when Scheuble dared to say that their utterly dysfunctional state needs some serious reforms.
The greek press used to run with it when Scheuble dared to say that their utterly dysfunctional state needs some serious reforms.
they alread said the will honor the contracts.
When you have to resort to blabbing about Germany's Nazi past during a contemporary argument you know you have lost (looking at you Greece and Turkey).
Straight Edge
Member
All I can think about is revenge,
The slaughter inside my head never ends.
And to all who deny this sin
Baba Eed Janed Cach-Men.
Ethnic genocide,
One million died,
Cries went unheard in 1915.
No one remembers, no one believes,
Some turks deny, but they fucking lie.
America knew, but as usual
They just stood by and listened to the cries.
"Why interfere? There's no money here
Who are the Armenians, who fucking Cares if they're alive,
Who cares if they fucking survive".
Forced in the desert and into sandy graves,
Children were murdered while their Mothers were raped.
Babies were thrown in the air and Impaled on swords,
Nothing but death from the Turkish Hordes.
Dispersal took place some Armenians Escaped,
Most met a cruel end.
Now we are few but we'll always be True,
To the Armenians that we will defend.
The slaughter inside my head never ends.
And to all who deny this sin
Baba Eed Janed Cach-Men.
Ethnic genocide,
One million died,
Cries went unheard in 1915.
No one remembers, no one believes,
Some turks deny, but they fucking lie.
America knew, but as usual
They just stood by and listened to the cries.
"Why interfere? There's no money here
Who are the Armenians, who fucking Cares if they're alive,
Who cares if they fucking survive".
Forced in the desert and into sandy graves,
Children were murdered while their Mothers were raped.
Babies were thrown in the air and Impaled on swords,
Nothing but death from the Turkish Hordes.
Dispersal took place some Armenians Escaped,
Most met a cruel end.
Now we are few but we'll always be True,
To the Armenians that we will defend.
According to Wikipedia, "Sözcü became the countrys fourth top-selling newspaper by its lurid antigovernment stance".
Erdogan-friendly Turkish media is very similar in tone, though, all in some way or another evoking Hitler / Nazi Germany.
See it this way, the only comparison they can come up with is another genocide. Thats more honesty than probably intended.
DerZuhälter
Member
While Germany is surely in the right to recognize the Armenian genocide, the timing of doing so now is a politically motivated move. It has nothing to do about recognizing the crimes and the own involvement but is a cheap political move, further deteriorating relations with Turkey. This isn't pressuring Turkey to change anything, this isn't trying to get Turkey to reevaluate the history of the Armenian genocide.
It is purely done to humilate Erdogan. To show how displeased Germany is with the democratic process in Turkey.
Meanwhile a guy like Abdelfatah-El Sissi who got into power by a coup in Egypt, jailed tens of thousands of his political opposition and executed and torturted thousands of them and effectively brought back the military junta of Hosny Mubarak, is being greated with military honors.
That is what should be recognized here too, I believe.
EdwardTivrusky
Member
I stand corrected then, thanks. Good to hear there may still be some opposition even if they print stuff like Hitler Merkel which is just childish especially when Germany have acknowledged many of their failings.
Here is a VERY interesting read about Germany's own involvement in the Armenian Genocide....
https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/german-connection
And here's a lovely quote from General von Schellendorf , who in 1915 was the head of Germany's military within the Ottoman Empire.
This is what makes Germany's (& Austria's & Bulgaria's) recognition of the Armenian Genocide so incredibly powerful, because they know for a fucking fact it happened as they themselves were involved.
It also makes Turks appear so much more ridiculous and downright bonkers, because what do these former WW1 ally nations of the Turks have to gain by recognizing and apologizing for their own involvement in a fucking genocide?
https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/german-connection
And here's a lovely quote from General von Schellendorf , who in 1915 was the head of Germany's military within the Ottoman Empire.
This is what makes Germany's (& Austria's & Bulgaria's) recognition of the Armenian Genocide so incredibly powerful, because they know for a fucking fact it happened as they themselves were involved.
It also makes Turks appear so much more ridiculous and downright bonkers, because what do these former WW1 ally nations of the Turks have to gain by recognizing and apologizing for their own involvement in a fucking genocide?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Good for Germany.
Also, Germany didn't commit three genocides in the span of two decades. Turkey did.
Germany didn't deny the Holocaust though and has strongly gone after those that do.
Also, Germany didn't commit three genocides in the span of two decades. Turkey did.
jack_package_200
Banned
Cenk of The Young Turks (Known Genocide denier) will be so mad.
Exactly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
Deaths 1.5 MILLION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
Deaths 750,000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide
Deaths 300,000
Already Torn
Banned
Turkey, what are you doing man. Nobody thinks this looks cool.
Actually, TYT ran a decent bit about this last night, led by Ana Kasparian, who is Armenian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orc7YVkkR34
Cenk wasn't on it, but I doubt that he still denies the genocide. Is there any recent proof that he still believes that way?
Oh and it should be noted that the Kurds were also hands-on involved with aiding the Turks to commit genocide against the Armenians, and they also have now recognized and apologized for their participation in the genocide....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_recognition_of_the_Armenian_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_recognition_of_the_Armenian_genocide
Sho_Nuff82
Member
The low-hanging fruit of what-aboutism.
I sadly have a few Turkish friends who were raised to believe that this event never happened and will argue until blue in the face that these people never existed or simply died in war.
The irony of Turkey refusing to allow for the word "genocide" to be used to describe what happened to the Armenians, is that the word "genocide" was created by Raphael Lemkin in order to describe what had happened to the Armenians.
It was what happened to the Armenians that the fucking word "genocide" was even created.
Here Raphael Lemkin speaks about it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moByGLA7FDc
It was what happened to the Armenians that the fucking word "genocide" was even created.
Here Raphael Lemkin speaks about it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moByGLA7FDc
RustyNails
Member
I'm all for labelling it as genocide. The counter argument is "fog of war" and that there were no specific progrom to eliminate Armenians. They think its a big "oopsie".
I want them to quickly own it, recognize it and admit their involvement and move on. Maybe reparations and increase citizenship rights for Armenian immigrants. There is no point in brushing this big of a thing under the rug.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Yup. The amount of denial against the Armenian genocide, let alone what happened to the Assyrians and the Greeks, is just shocking.
Didn't know that.
Good on them.
People who use "his co host is armenian" as a reason for Junk not being a denier should ask some armenians what they think about kasparian.
Interceptor
Banned
Rightwing grey wolfs are marching in the streets in response to this. And German intelligence just prevented a suicide bombingshooting in Düsseldorf. Fun times. Euro 2016 will be nuts.
Normally you'd have an argument but that is literally a 7 minute long video of Ana talking about the atrocities of the Armenian genocide, and how it was in fact a genocide and not just normal acts of war.
I don't know what Cenk Ugyur's position is on this issue today. It's disappointing that he ever denied that it was a genocide. He finds himself among many Americans who hold or have held that viewpoint, including the presumptive Democratic nominee for President. These people are wrong to hold this position.
Stereogatari
Banned
I'm sorry guys. This issue is just so emotive, and I can't go against what pretty much every member of my ethnic group feels, in that this is less about humanitarian concerns of the Armenian victims, but it's more about using it as a political leverage against Turkey.
I wish I wasn't such a brainwashed fool, but our ethnicity is hugely nationalistic, and indeed this issue actually unites both Secular and religious Turks together in expressing frustration towards the German parliament decision.
I don't know what to feel anymore. The issue upsets me, it upsets me that Turkey is seen as evil in the West, it upsets me that Turkey is so stubborn about the issue, I just wish my country of ethnic origin could be normal and integrated properly like Western Europe/America, but alas we are in this god damned mess and looking like idiots to you guys.
I wish I wasn't such a brainwashed fool, but our ethnicity is hugely nationalistic, and indeed this issue actually unites both Secular and religious Turks together in expressing frustration towards the German parliament decision.
I don't know what to feel anymore. The issue upsets me, it upsets me that Turkey is seen as evil in the West, it upsets me that Turkey is so stubborn about the issue, I just wish my country of ethnic origin could be normal and integrated properly like Western Europe/America, but alas we are in this god damned mess and looking like idiots to you guys.
Not denying, contesting, or even debating that this is exactly what happened, but I will add context to this. The Allies had made no secret what their aspiration was towards the Ottoman Empire; Britain had been encroaching on Iraq and the Arabian peninsula and took Egypt and Cyprus, France was openly interfering in Lebanon and Syria and enforcing the Capitulations, Italy had already seized Libya, broken off Albania, and was interested in further expansion into the Eastern Mediterranean at Ottoman expense, and Russia had been expanding southwards at Ottoman expense for over 150 years at this point, and finally, Greece and its Megali Idea aspirations were no secret to anybody. The Ottoman Empire was perpetually the whipping boy of Europe for the last century and no power respected its territorial integrity, it's political sovereignty, or even the rights of its non-Christian citizens.
And there were already plans in place for what to do with the Ottoman Empire, even before they joined the Central Powers, what with Greek irredentist claims, Italian delusions of a new Roman Empire by taking Southwestern Anatolia, French desire for Cilicia and Syria, British oil interests in Iraq, and Russia's centuries long claims to be the heirs of Rome and to take the entire Black Sea coast and Constantinople.
What am I trying to get at here? Not much, really. There's no justifying Ottoman actions, by any means or form. What I am trying to do is simply highlight the fact that Europe had collectively placed the Ottomans between a rock and a hard place; the Ottomans were more or less set up to fail by 1914 and Europe's incessant support for nationalists, separatists, and their previous dismantling of the Empire during the Congress of Berlin pretty much neutered any peaceful stabilization of the Empire, as well as ruining Ottoman attempts to embrace a multicultural state via Ottomanism.
Judge the Ottoman Empire harshly for its actions. But keep in mind context. The Ottomans did the deed but Europe pretty much helped lay the groundwork for its violent end.
Careful, by insulting Turkey you are obviously insulting the head of state, don't want to go to jail!
But yeah fuck this, just admit it happened and move on, stop being babies, Turkey.
Walker_Boh
Member
Not knowing too much about this topic, what were Turkey's "justification" for committing the Armenian genocide?
armenia doesn't?
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Nothing makes me happier when other countries oppose Turkey's BS. Married to an Armenian wife, it filled me with great joy to have read this last night.
Edit: Also I don't think the United States officially recognized the Armenian genocide. There was a congressional approval but it never passed in other branches of government and is basically in hiatus. The US officially doesn't recognize it, but it does have a lot of senators and congressman that do. This is why Obama dodges the word like a plague. The executive branch is far too afraid of upsetting Turkey because Turkey threatened the United States with not allowing the US to use any airspace or military bases in the turkish land.
Edit: Also I don't think the United States officially recognized the Armenian genocide. There was a congressional approval but it never passed in other branches of government and is basically in hiatus. The US officially doesn't recognize it, but it does have a lot of senators and congressman that do. This is why Obama dodges the word like a plague. The executive branch is far too afraid of upsetting Turkey because Turkey threatened the United States with not allowing the US to use any airspace or military bases in the turkish land.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Wait I'm pretty sure this list is BS. The United States for example does not recognize the genocide, although some states do at their level.
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