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Germany officially recognizes Armenian genocide, Turkey pulls ambassador

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Not going to happen. I'll give it 5 years to crumble just like syria. Piece by piece. People called me crazy when i said the same about lybia, syria and egypt years before the arab spring and yet here we are.

Loool. You are clueless about Turkey. Turkey is far more developed politically, economically and socially than any of those 3 countries which were literal literal dictatorships. Come on man, don't speak stupidly like this. Turkey crumbling piece by piece like Arab countries hahahahaha god there are more people like you out there isn't there.
 
Loool. You are clueless about Turkey. Turkey is far more developed politically, economically and socially than any of those 3 countries which were literal literal dictatorships. Come on man, don't speak stupidly like this. Turkey crumbling piece by piece like Arab countries hahahahaha god there are more people like you out there isn't there.

You will see. Turkey is basically a dictatorship already and the only politcally developed thing is their hilarious borderline nationalism/superiority(inferiority) complex. Eastern parts will deteriorate even more with the IS and other groups battling each other step by step. Tourism will cut off and threatening the EU for money won't work forever. Since turkey cant do anything wrong other scapesgoats will have to be found which will only lead to even more fanatism. The liberals and intellectuals will flee the country once Erdogan suppresses them even more and its a downward spiral from here. Religious groups versus religious groups. Nationalists versus religious groups, Nationalists versus refugees, Nationalists versus liberals. Liberals versus everyone. 5 years. Tops.

Edit: Considering your profile pic the irony is glorious. Congratulations on being part of the problem. ^^
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)
 

KDR_11k

Member
Not sure if serious, Turkey's our next EU member.

Nah, the reason they're not in yet was that they didn't meet the human rights requirements and such. With the recent turn towards autocracy they're moving further and further away from the requirements. They couldn't even meet the ones for the visa-free travel (they rejected the "stop arresting journalists on BS terrorism charges" requirement).

Five years ago or so it looked like Turkey was on the path to membership but not anymore. Of course they'll have a chance again once they reverse those policies but that'll probably require a major political shift in Turkey.
 

Jasper

Member
You would think at this point Turkey would be over it by now at being strung along by the EU for DECADES about becoming a member.

It's never going to happen, and the EU will continue to introduce roadblocks to stop Turkey's accession into the EU.

Also here's an incredible article explaining why (as I have already said) Germany's own recognition of the Armenian Genocide is so powerful because they witnessed it happening with their own fucking eyes, and even helped the Turks commit the genocide.

What on earth does Germany have to gain by recognizing and apologizing for their involvement in a fucking genocide...if it's untrue? The majority of Turks cannot grasp that this does not help Germany (except for unburdening their shoulders) and yet most Turks decide to now portray Germany as the enemy (instead of using common sense and wondering...hey, maybe their was a genocide?).

Instead we have dumbshit Erdogan and his fellow Turkish politicians furiously proclaiming they will "NEVER accept the accusations of genocide"...and as revenge, threatening to deport Armenians from Turkey.

I wonder if he's willing to deport the Armenians with compensation for hundreds of millions of dollars they are rightfully owed, when during the Armenian Genocide, the Turks stole their ancestors money, gold, homes, farms, businesses, schools, hospitals, churches, cemeteries, etc...

Why Germany's recognition of Armenian genocide is such a big deal

The German Bundestag's overwhelming vote last week in favor of this resolution, with just one vote against and one abstention, brought both gratitude and anger. Armenian communities, many of them descendants of genocide survivors who are dispersed across the world, are grateful. Turkey, however, was incensed and recalled its ambassador to Germany. Many Turks see the vote as not just a threat to longstanding German-Turkish relations, but to Turkish national identity.

These opposing emotion-fueled reactions over the "G-word" and its politics are nothing new. Turkey and its government have long denied the genocide took place, calling the use of the term a gross distortion of the truth. Instead they've chosen to interpret the killings as a consequence of war, and not a systematic attempt to wipe out most of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey's most conciliatory step has come in the form of condolences offered to descendants of genocide survivors by Turkish then-Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2014.

Germany joins a growing list of countries — including Argentina, Canada, France and Russia — that recognize the Armenian genocide as such. The European Union's biggest nation broke away from holdouts like the United States that use different terminology without the G-word. Germany's move adds pressure on Turkey and its policies of denial. It’s a monumental decision made all the more significant by the often unknown role Germany played in the mass extermination of Armenians, 30 years before the Holocaust.

An ally of the Ottomans, Germany had military officials across the empire who bore witness to the deportation and killings of the Armenian population, along with Assyrian and Greek minorities. Their role had both direct and indirect implications as many stayed silent, fought alongside Ottomans or provided weapons for the crimes that took place. Some sources also say the German role in the Armenian Genocide became a model for the Holocaust.

The vote acknowledged complicity, turning Germany into the “world experts in atonement,” as columnist Leonid Bershidsky described it.

But perhaps more revolutionary than the vote itself was the person who championed it: co-leader of Germany’s Green Party, Cem Özdemir.

Considering his Turkish background, Özdemir’s pioneering involvement is noteworthy — an important, if rare voice in Armenian-Turkish reconciliation. Many, including Armenians, praised what they saw as Özdemir’s moral courage in standing up to denial, even as he received threats and was called a traitor by Turkish politicians.

His support, and that of a small but strong group of Turkish activists, offers the Armenians some hope that Turks will one day do the same. For that to happen, a fundamental change has to come from within Turkey, from both officials and ordinary citizens challenging their past and the residue it has left behind.

The stakes seem high for Turkey, with its deepening descent into authoritarianism and nationalism, eroding press freedom, and long, fraught relationship with another minority group, the Kurds. To move forward as a democracy Turkey needs to revisit the blind spot in its history that became the crux through which its other problems are intrinsically connected, the event on which a modern Turkey grew: the Armenian Genocide.

Armenians and Turks share a burden, one that changed the fate of millions in such explicit ways. Over 100 years on, Armenians have never forgotten this part of their history. But now more than ever, it is the Turks who must do the remembering.
[/u]

http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-06-05/why-germanys-recognition-armenian-genocide-such-big-deal
 
Wow, amazing move on Germany's part.

The Turkish government has been so ugly about all of this. Kicking and screaming every step of the way rather than gracefully reflecting on past atrocities and recognizing them.
 

Shiggy

Member
Crazy how they are reacting. One newspaper makes Germany responsible for the terror attack yesterday, Erdogan calling for blood tests to see if Ozdemir has Turkish roots, death threats against German MP.

And what is Merkel doing? At least Norbert Lammert and Martin Schulz were more than clear in what they think about this.
 

Milchjon

Member
Crazy how they are reacting. One newspaper makes Germany responsible for the terror attack yesterday, Erdogan calling for blood tests to see if Ozdemir has Turkish roots, death threats against German MP.

And what is Merkel doing? At least Norbert Lammert and Martin Schulz were more than clear in what they think about this.

That one was my "favorite"

Love the supposed motive they give for Germany being responsible

Edit: For reference
CkaMmn5WEAAhSco.jpg
 

Hypron

Member
What Turkey is doing is so upsetting.

They're even black mailing Australia and NZ by threatening to prevent ANZAC remembrance ceremonies from taking place if the countries even so much as discuss the genocide. That doesn't excuse why those countries don't acknowledge the genocide though.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Turkey is on a dangerous path. Erdogan is about to become the next dictator of that region.

About to? Dude exploits a legal loophole to imprison citizens of other countries because he can't take criticism. That's straight up villainy.
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
And what is Merkel doing? At least Norbert Lammert and Martin Schulz were more than clear in what they think about this.

Pretty sure she is on the same side like Lammert or Schulz, she just cant voice it that vocable because she would break the refugee deal. And thats a thing she cant do right now when she dont want to commit political suicide.

Its a big problem, but I can understand it somehow.
 

Fritz

Member
Erdogan is a shithead. The genocide happened. It was nobody's fault but yours. Deal with it.

He's the mother of salty. Apparently.


As a German born in the 80s I can only imagine how fucking conflicted i'ld be if our government would deny our atrocities. It's vile, it's dumb and it's really embarrassing. Identity crisis ftw, bumpy road ahead Turkey!
 

Theonik

Member
The real question is does Cameron still support Turkey joining the EU as he's assured people of several times in the past?
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
The real question is does Cameron still support Turkey joining the EU as he's assured people of several times in the past?

All EU leaders support Turkey joining the EU if they fulfil the long list of conditions, but under Erdogan that will never happen. Maybe in 30+ years they will be ready to make a case.
 

guggnichso

Banned
I don't really know what he is playing at here. He got a sweet deal out of us for keeping refugees out of europe, so Merkel can still keep her stance of accepting everyone who is endangered by the war in syria (for which I absolutely applaud her - the Kohl gouvernment actually made it harder for asylum seekers to be accepted when our Neo NAZIs set fire to asylum seekers homes back in the 90s. Merkel just says "Fuck those idiots" and stays her course), while at the same time reduces the refugees that reach our borders drastically.

Looking at his rhetorics concerning the Böhmermann incident and this decision right here he now seems to believe he has the upper hand on Merkel and can basically do what he wants. Which, looking at our chancellors track record will not turn out well for him in the long run.
 

Theonik

Member
All EU leaders support Turkey joining the EU if they fulfil the long list of conditions, but under Erdogan that will never happen. Maybe in 30+ years they will be ready to make a case.
Cameron supports Turkey joining now though.
 

Shiggy

Member
All EU leaders support Turkey joining the EU if they fulfil the long list of conditions, but under Erdogan that will never happen. Maybe in 30+ years they will be ready to make a case.

I very much doubt the leaders of Hungary, Poland or Austria would want to have them in at any point. And I very much doubt it would work.
 
I'm not trying to belittle this issue on any way but find out how we got here when I ask if someone can explain to me how this is relevant today? What sparked this discussion where Germany is put in a position by Turkey of "You guys better vote on if it's a Genocide!"
 

Joni

Member
I'm not trying to belittle this issue on any way but find out how we got here when I ask if someone can explain to me how this is relevant today? What sparked this discussion where Germany is put in a position by Turkey of "You guys better vote on if it's a Genocide!"

"Germany to Prosecute Satirist for a Poem Mocking Turkey's Erdogan"
 
"Germany to Prosecute Satirist for a Poem Mocking Turkey's Erdogan"

I didn't read the poem, I just thought it was about bestiality or something. Did it reference the genocide and the blowback from Erdogan forced Germany's government to vote on an official stance on the issue?

It all seems like a weird thing to reach a vote I guess.
 

Fritz

Member
I'm not trying to belittle this issue on any way but find out how we got here when I ask if someone can explain to me how this is relevant today? What sparked this discussion where Germany is put in a position by Turkey of "You guys better vote on if it's a Genocide!"

Obviously there are speculations but I really don't see how German government would benefit from this in the current situation. But I guess you can spin it in any way.

Fact is that Germany is not the first country in a recent line of parliamentary recognition, the question has been raised in the public even before the refugee crisis (heck, even the Kardashians have made it a topic) and the vote in parliament had gotten a major push by opposition politician Cem Özdemir who is himself of Turkish descent.
 
Germany warns MPs with Turkish roots against travel to Turkey: Spiegel | Reuters

Germany's Foreign Ministry has warned lawmakers with Turkish roots against traveling to the country for now because their safety cannot be guaranteed, the magazine Der Spiegel reported on Saturday.

...

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has said that the 11 lawmakers of Turkish origin who voted for the resolution should be given blood tests, and has accused them of having "tainted blood" and of being terrorists.

The leader of Germany's Green party, Cem Oezdemir, who pushed for the resolution, has also received death threats.

Spiegel said the ministry had come to the conclusion that the lawmakers' safety could not be guaranteed.

"It's unspeakable to know that it's not possible to fly there for now," Aydan Oezoguz, Germany's integration commissioner, was quoted by the magazine as saying.

Other lawmakers with Turkish roots have also canceled business trips to the country, Der Spiegel said.
 
He seriously used the words "tainted blood"?

I mean, you really want to paint individuals who fail your ultra-nationalism litmus test as being genetically inferior or "other", and that's the option you think is going to convince people to pretend like the genocide didn't happen?
 

Joni

Member
I didn't read the poem, I just thought it was about bestiality or something. Did it reference the genocide and the blowback from Erdogan forced Germany's government to vote on an official stance on the issue?

It all seems like a weird thing to reach a vote I guess.

Erdogan acts like an ass, so someone thought it would be nice to remind Turkey.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Good thing he got humiliated at Ali's funeral. Needs to happen many more times. Guy's ego has to come back to this planet.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Loool. You are clueless about Turkey. Turkey is far more developed politically, economically and socially than any of those 3 countries which were literal literal dictatorships. Come on man, don't speak stupidly like this. Turkey crumbling piece by piece like Arab countries hahahahaha god there are more people like you out there isn't there.


Hey stereo, what do you think about Erdogan suggesting that test for tainted blood?
 
Regarding some of the comments mentioning that germany did this at this point in time for other political reasons:
This resolution was cooking for a long time. There have been groups pushing for this resolution for years. That thiis has happened now had nothing to do with any other current events.

In fact, I think it would have been a weak and cowardly move by the Bundestag to delay the debate because it might hurt Turkeys feeling at a particularly sensitive point in time.

I even think that Merkels comments regarding Turkeys reaction are weak. Turkey is attacking german politicians of turkish decent who voted for the resolution, calling them foul blooded, terrorist aiding traitors.
Merkel only said she is "surprised" by comments like that.


People who use "his co host is armenian" as a reason for Junk not being a denier should ask some armenians what they think about kasparian.

I think this topic is mostly used to defame Cenk Uygur and TYT by people who don't like his and the TYT network usual liberal positions on many topic.
In my experience the people who bring this up are right winger or these weird group of people(a mixture of new atheists, radical leftists, socially liberal right wingers and even Gamergaters) who formed around people like Sam Harris or outlets like Breitbart who call liberal media like TYT "regressive left"

Cenk Uygur wrote a newspaper article in college in the 90s questioning the historic facts of the genocide. Even though the topic was pretty clear among historians at the time, it wasn't as clear as it is today and in the political landscape of the US at the time it wasn't unusual not to recognize it as a genocide, the US congress hadn't recognized it as a genocide at that point andeven among american historians there was still a sizable group unwillig to recognize it as a genocide(their input was the reason why congress hadn't recognized it as genocide at that point)
Heck, even Hillary Clinton stopped calling it a genocide when she became secretary of state.

Uygur rescinded the statements he made about the armenian genocide:
https://www.tytnetwork.com/2016/04/22/rescinding-daily-pennsylvanian-article/
Weak, since he still isn't using the word genocide, but its something at least.
 

kess

Member
I'm not trying to belittle this issue on any way but find out how we got here when I ask if someone can explain to me how this is relevant today? What sparked this discussion where Germany is put in a position by Turkey of "You guys better vote on if it's a Genocide!"

It's relevant because the rank refusal to debate the issue or allow old wounds to heal is a reason why Turkey's democracy is doomed to failure. The system cannot allow dissension and punishes ethnic minorities. Read up on the discrimination of the Alevi religious sect sometime.
 

Shiggy

Member
Turkey does not allow German delegation to visit soldiers stationed in Turkey
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...undeswehr-soldaten-in-incirlik-a-1099175.html (German only)

And I would have thought now that nobody wants to go to Turkey anymore, they would be happy that at least someone wants to come.



And just as ridiculous: Turkish TV channel Kanal D stops the cooperation with the German TV station ZDF. Kanal D apparently aired ZDF's children news in Turkey, but Kanal D received a lot of complaints after the German resolution. The aim of airing these German news on a Turkish channel was to reach out to Turkish children in Germany who are predominantly exposed to Turkish media (yeah, integration failed in Germany as all the death threats and complaints of Turkish groups in Germany illustrate just too well). The newspaper Welt also speculates it might be related to the infamous Erdogan poem, as the comedy show responsible for that is airing on ZDF, and ZDF is fully backing that show.
http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/...her-Sender-stoppt-Zusammenarbeit-mit-ZDF.html (German only)
 
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