shinobi602
Member
But it probably does just come down to that tech/price ratio.
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GI.biz: "Wii U less powerful than PS3, Xbox 360, developers say"
- Thread starter Hoo-doo
- Start date
But it probably does just come down to that tech/price ratio.
Hope Nintendo doesn't mind being abandoned by most developers, especially western developers, within a year's time then
The Wii all over again.
KingJ2002
Member
I just can't believe this news. Considering that early reports suggested an improvement over this generation... I just don't think this is true.
I'm still betting on the Wii U to be twice as powerful and more capable than the current generation.
i can't wait for e3 to come... all the speculation and even blind faith on my part is annoying.
I'm still betting on the Wii U to be twice as powerful and more capable than the current generation.
i can't wait for e3 to come... all the speculation and even blind faith on my part is annoying.
TheMagician
Member
Aliens to be a 'better version' on Wii U because of 'more RAM, better processor'
Video interview:
http://www.officialnintendomagazine...very-sexy-says-aliens-colonial-marines-chief/
Video interview:
http://www.officialnintendomagazine...very-sexy-says-aliens-colonial-marines-chief/
Uh like every developer did? ...
Great since I bought it, thanks for asking!
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I find this to be plausible.
EDIT: I still wonder what the job titles of these sources are, because "YOU DON'T NEED PHYSICS FOR MARIO HERP DERP" isn't the sort of response you'd expect from a technical expert playing with a fairly new devkit.
I think that's fair but it wasn't what I was talking about.
What I was trying to say is that when Nintendo makes games for a system that can do Uncharted or even Samaratin level stuff, they might not go that route and it isn't necessarily for a lack of talent.
Mihos
Gold Member
Did they ever say something about allowing two of those tablet controllers yet? Or do devs still need to 'innovate' around that problem?
I am sure the power it has is fine.I think even the next Microsoft and Sony systems will be less about processing power and more about app stores and social networking.
I am sure the power it has is fine.I think even the next Microsoft and Sony systems will be less about processing power and more about app stores and social networking.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Why would they need new hardware for app stores and social networking? I think at least one of the two is going to try to fit a 2012 mid range PC in a console case.
I think, graphically, Wii U titles will be comparable to output on the PS3 and 360, and discussions about relative power are purely academic.
test_account
XP-39C²
I saw some talk earlier about the PS2 and its profitability, but were any numbers posted? (i dont want to read through hundreds of posts, sorry).
Reallink
Member
Well you really don't in the context of these articles. I mean if Wii is capable of producing the Galaxies, U should have no problem handling the same thing in HD--which is what most people are expecting. Are you suggesting they're going to turn Mario in a PhysX playground or something?
Demoncarnotaur
Member
I really hope Nintendo isn't pulling a repeat of the Wii where the specs just get worse and worse as more info comes out.. I mean, you would at least hope this thing was as powerful at the 360/ps3, but I was hoping for something more powerful, to bridge the gap between next gen. If they are having some issues getting current gen games running, then next gen will be the same issue with the Wii U mostly getting abandoned by third parties. =/
That's already happening and the thing isn't even out yet with people like Kojima saying they'd have to make a Wii U-specific version because of the new controller or some such bullshit.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
On top of which, the new controller may scare away some who were attracted to the wii's simplicity. Don't get me wrong, I am sure this system will sell and make Nintendo money, but I really think it having enough juice is important for its long term health.
nordique
Member
The number of unsubstantiated reactions to this news is ridiculous.
So much has to do with optimization of hardware.
We have someone on these boards (wsippel) who has direct behind-the-scenes knowledge of middleware support the Wii U is receiving, and wsippel specifically mentioned that after initial optimization, the current Wii U CPU in devkits alone performs at the very least "on par" and in some areas "much better" than Xbox 360's CPU. With more optimization, this will only end up becoming better. The Wii U CPU is not the same as the 360 CPU even though they may be different. When a developer cuts and pastes the code from a 360 title to a Wii U title, it is not accounting for optimization. This can easily create a "slower" game because the 360 incorporate audio and I/O functions into Xenos. The Wii U has its own dedicated audio DSP and I/O ARM processor to handle those tasks. So, that alone is a big problem. If developers are making ports and not ground up games, they are not going to reconfigure every single line of code just to get a port up and running. The quick and easy way will always win out in the end.
Yet, according to wsippel, the CPU could have initially appeared to be worse. But once optimized it ended up becoming at least as good while outperofming the 360 CPU in some areas. Outperforming DOES NOT EQUAL "worse" than 360. It means Outperforming! lol
Optimizations alone can account of this. The tools Nintendo gives developers keep getting better and better (that is, accounting for more optimization of hardware) and there are insider reports (legit insider reports) that the hardware is still being more and more optimized.
Mix this with at the very least RAM that is twice as much as the 360/PS3 (as confirmed by multiple insider sources such as lherre who is a developer with access to Wii U kits...Purportedly Nintendo is targeting above that range however) and a much newer, more capable GPU (early devkits had an RV700 level GPU in likely to set an expectation level) than either the 360 or PS3 can handle,
and all that any logical sane individual can say is that if a developer says the Wii U is weaker than either the 360 or PS3, or even simply "on par" on a technical level (not what you see on the screen), they are doing a poor job developing for that system. Period.
Optimization is huge when it comes to porting.
And first party or exclusive efforts, generally, will show a system off the most.
Many Gamecube games looks "on par" with PS2 titles, in some cases worse due to compressed audio and video cutscenes. But when built from the ground up, a game could really shine on that system: case in point was Resident Evil 4.
This generation of HD consoles, we had titles like Killzone 2 and 3 which were optimized for the PS3, God of War 3, Uncharted 2/3, etc... on PS3 and Gears 2/3, third party tools that showed the best multiplat titles, that were all optimized on the 360.
When a game is optimized on the Wii U -- or any other next gen console for that matter -- it will look better than what is currently out there on the PS3/360
But in this day and age, where HD graphics have their set their own standard, it doesn't mean much. The average gamer can tell the difference between a PS2 and PS3 game, but no matter how much better the graphics on PS4 end up looking, the difference won't be as large simple because of the HD effect.
I can't believe how little understood this basic concept is. This is a video game enthusiast forum, right? So why don't people take the time to understand something as simple as this? Here we are zoning into 2000 posts on some reporting (I used to be a news editor; I know how little work can go into reporting news) that can be easily explained by something as simple as developers porting with un-optimized code??
Its ridiculous!
In the end, the Wii U system likely is only 2-3x more powerful than the Xbo 360/PS3 (the GPU alone will be much newer and capable of more effects) but its not going to be a powerhouse. That much we know. But the Xbox 360 was many, many times more powerful than the Xbox 1, yet developers only "cutting and pasting" their games resulted in titles like Gun at launch.
So much has to do with optimization of hardware.
We have someone on these boards (wsippel) who has direct behind-the-scenes knowledge of middleware support the Wii U is receiving, and wsippel specifically mentioned that after initial optimization, the current Wii U CPU in devkits alone performs at the very least "on par" and in some areas "much better" than Xbox 360's CPU. With more optimization, this will only end up becoming better. The Wii U CPU is not the same as the 360 CPU even though they may be different. When a developer cuts and pastes the code from a 360 title to a Wii U title, it is not accounting for optimization. This can easily create a "slower" game because the 360 incorporate audio and I/O functions into Xenos. The Wii U has its own dedicated audio DSP and I/O ARM processor to handle those tasks. So, that alone is a big problem. If developers are making ports and not ground up games, they are not going to reconfigure every single line of code just to get a port up and running. The quick and easy way will always win out in the end.
Yet, according to wsippel, the CPU could have initially appeared to be worse. But once optimized it ended up becoming at least as good while outperofming the 360 CPU in some areas. Outperforming DOES NOT EQUAL "worse" than 360. It means Outperforming! lol
Optimizations alone can account of this. The tools Nintendo gives developers keep getting better and better (that is, accounting for more optimization of hardware) and there are insider reports (legit insider reports) that the hardware is still being more and more optimized.
Mix this with at the very least RAM that is twice as much as the 360/PS3 (as confirmed by multiple insider sources such as lherre who is a developer with access to Wii U kits...Purportedly Nintendo is targeting above that range however) and a much newer, more capable GPU (early devkits had an RV700 level GPU in likely to set an expectation level) than either the 360 or PS3 can handle,
and all that any logical sane individual can say is that if a developer says the Wii U is weaker than either the 360 or PS3, or even simply "on par" on a technical level (not what you see on the screen), they are doing a poor job developing for that system. Period.
Optimization is huge when it comes to porting.
And first party or exclusive efforts, generally, will show a system off the most.
Many Gamecube games looks "on par" with PS2 titles, in some cases worse due to compressed audio and video cutscenes. But when built from the ground up, a game could really shine on that system: case in point was Resident Evil 4.
This generation of HD consoles, we had titles like Killzone 2 and 3 which were optimized for the PS3, God of War 3, Uncharted 2/3, etc... on PS3 and Gears 2/3, third party tools that showed the best multiplat titles, that were all optimized on the 360.
When a game is optimized on the Wii U -- or any other next gen console for that matter -- it will look better than what is currently out there on the PS3/360
But in this day and age, where HD graphics have their set their own standard, it doesn't mean much. The average gamer can tell the difference between a PS2 and PS3 game, but no matter how much better the graphics on PS4 end up looking, the difference won't be as large simple because of the HD effect.
I can't believe how little understood this basic concept is. This is a video game enthusiast forum, right? So why don't people take the time to understand something as simple as this? Here we are zoning into 2000 posts on some reporting (I used to be a news editor; I know how little work can go into reporting news) that can be easily explained by something as simple as developers porting with un-optimized code??
Its ridiculous!
In the end, the Wii U system likely is only 2-3x more powerful than the Xbo 360/PS3 (the GPU alone will be much newer and capable of more effects) but its not going to be a powerhouse. That much we know. But the Xbox 360 was many, many times more powerful than the Xbox 1, yet developers only "cutting and pasting" their games resulted in titles like Gun at launch.
Can you tell the difference between NES and SNES games? How about Xbox360 hooked up to SD vs Xbox1?
Oh I may not see the differences in terms of graphics, but I can definitely feel the difference in terms of performance.
Seriously, optimisation used to be so key with games programming, especially with closed systems, but with this current generation (thanks partly to the myriad of multi-purpose middleware solutions available for developers, and also partly due to a lot of low-level processes being handled automatically by higher-level APIs), a number of games developed for one console as lead platform haven't transisted well to the other console. This is sounding like it's the case, especially if third parties are just simply porting over their code from either current-gen system and expecting it to run smoothly...
What this means is that *gasp horror* companies can't be lazy with the Wii U and will actually have to do some optimising for once in their lives with their games, be it ports or from the ground up. If companies want to squeeze every gram out of this console and make half-decent games, they're gonna have to do it the old-fashioned way - robust coding, efficient memory management and effective optimization.
That is, if companies can be bothered... ;P But I don't like the idea that they're all too ready to blame the hardware when they haven't had enough time to tap into it fully...
O-O~
EDIT - Though, to be fair, Nintendo are throwing the developers a bone by constantly updating their own devkits to help optimise said middleware solutions. If they keep doing revisions, this should help them out tremendously...
If true, it's shocking they would go this route, it's not like the Wii is still at the top of sales. I guess they better hope this tablet controller will start the same craze that the original Wii did. I'm surprised they wouldn't up the power over current gen consoles. I guess the strategy is to differentiate via the controller and not try to compete in hardware power with Sony/MS? It's smart in one way not to take a bath on the hardware costs, but I'm not sure how they're going to continue to compete with this strategy down the road?
nordique
Member
I think you're missing the point entirely if you're looking at it from this point of view.
If a developer says the Wii U is weaker than current HD consoles or "not as powerful", never mind the fact that final kits may not even be out yet or the fact that the tools are still evolving (which has been confirmed by other insiders or people with access to inside information) then they simply have not optimized their code to run on the Wii U.
What is ridiculous is how this thread launched to the stratosphere based on these claims alone.
No one who knows or has inside information regarding the Wii U is claiming it to be a powerful behemoth. But no one who knows or has inside information regarding the Wii U is saying the system, on paper, is weaker either.
nordique
Member
Exactly. It is actually very understandable as to why devs would claim it may not be as "powerful"
It may literally not have the raw performance that say the 360 CPU has. It may be clocked much lower for example.
With optimization one can account for the fact the CPU will have 3 times the cache; it will have a newer more modern architecture, it will be capable of utilizing more threads because it has its own audio DSP and I/O processor (which each can take 15-30% of resources away from the CPU!)
These things are just as important to consider. We know the Wii U CPU will be a Tri-Core, 2 SMT IBM based CPU, similar to Xenos but yet very different and customized under what Nintendo wants. It will have 3 MB of L2 cache, asymmetrically distributed.
Its not exactly the same CPU as Xenos. The fact that the Wii U isn't even out yet means its not optimized for porting nor performance.
Never mind the little fact that final dev kits have not been shipped yet, or that only the biggest of big companies (we're talking Activision, EA, Ubisoft, Square Enix, Capcom) in house devs have the latest kits. Smaller guys like Vigil don't have the latest kits.
All of these thing matter. But many posters (actually most posters) don't consider these things, either because they are uneducated about them or the facts behind them, or, they are simply being ignorant. Which makes the ridiculousness even more ridiculous.
Oh definitely, I won't automatically assume at this point, and teething problems are natural at this early stage for those who are unfamiliar with new hardware.
However, we have seen a few examples this generation where various multi-platform games performs seamlessly on one console, whilst the port to the other console performs poorly in comparison (I believe Skyrim would be one of the more well-known titles to suffer from this). And the developers surely haven't had enough time to know the real ins and outs of the devkits they've received to take as much advantage as possible on what's on offer.
My post wasn't necessarily a stab at trying to defend the WiiU's lack of performance, and more at the fact that now, more than ever, developers should aim to optimise better and make all versions of their ports play to the strengths of the particular consoles for a great experience, no matter what console you play the game on.
O-O~
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Nintendo, most profitable game console manufacturer with the Wii.
GAF: Damn, I hope Nintendo doesn't do what they did with the Wii again!
GAF: Damn, I hope Nintendo doesn't do what they did with the Wii again!
Not surprised.
At all.
Edit- another one lol http://www.joystiq.com/2012/04/04/gearbox-boss-says-impressive-wii-u-a-really-nice-bridge-to-the/ (<- Love the Duke Nukem Forever line in that article too)
This is not looking good.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Holy shit at that physics comment. I think these quotes may deserve a new thread (s).
I do hope they don't do a Wii again, I'd like some excellent third party support.
mugurumakensei
Member
wsippel already mentioned at least one middleware was horribly unoptimized and through pipeline improvements they improved processing performance by about 400%, and there is a still faster pipeline that isn't taken advantage of by the middleware since PS360 lack it.
I'm noy going to say lazy devs, but there is an issue with unoptimized middleware which is indeed a software issue.
maquiladora
Member
So that's multiple devs telling GI.biz and multiple devs telling CVG the same thing.
And add Gearbox comment that the Wii U is "a bridge to the next generation" which is a diplomatic way of saying its not truly next gen.
And add Gearbox comment that the Wii U is "a bridge to the next generation" which is a diplomatic way of saying its not truly next gen.
radioheadrule83
Banned
It doesn't sound so much like he's trying to deliver a backhanded compliment as much as he's simply saying, actually, they're very happy with it.
The people here have different taste than the general population. The Wii was the most successful console this gen but it had an underwhelming library as far as most people here are concerned.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
And consumers will most likely eat it up like they did with the Wii and are currently doing with the 3DS. Why? It'll probably be affordable.
I'm still puzzled as to who actually believes it was ever going to be a "generational leap." I firmly believe Nintendo has found their niche--putting out a stopgap system that will be focused on a new method of control/playing. This time, it's the tablet and the streaming to the tablet. I think we'll see another system from Nintendo in 5 years. If Sony/MS wait another 6-7, that puts Nintendo firmly in the middle of the console release cycle.
Let's look at what he said shall we? (at least according to guek above)
"Evidently middleware has been struggling with the CPU for awhile now due to optimization issues. The document states that they've very recently improved performances by 400%, bringing CPU usage at 360 levels in most areas and superior to 360 in a few. Imagine if your middleware was performing 4x less than optimal, that would explain CPU troubles some devs have been talking about."
So he said that EVEN AFTER A 400% INCREASE it is now AT 360 LEVELS in MOST areas and superior in a FEW.
So to recap: unoptimized it was bad. Optimized it's still worse than 360 in some areas.
So yup, keep quoting wsippel. Apparently he's been trying to tell you it's just another this gen console for awhile now.
Maybe WiiU and Vita will have a symbiotic relationship going forward. We saw a little bit of this with Wii/PSP. But because Wii was so tightly identified with the "everybody" audience, the relationship didn't fully develop. If WiiU is more of a core platform, its goals may be closer to Sony's portable this time.
The part where they call him out for also being overly excited for Duke Nukem Forever had me rolling.
AceBandage
Banned
While I agree that from a gamer perspective, you're right, there's a lot of gamers out here acting like business people too saying some insane things. What would have made that quote more accurate:
mugurumakensei
Member
And wsippel mentions the middleware does not take advantage of a hardware pipeline that's even faster. Also, you're making one hell of an assumption that that middleware is perfectly optimized, and 360 performance is the end of the line.
"in some areas."
AceBandage
Banned
You've got multiple articles and wsippel, who/whatever that is, telling you the same thing.
Your denial is scrumptious.
But how does that equate to automatically worse than 360, you just kinda slipped in your own assumption.
After those optimizations everything could be equal or greater, why do you assume weaker in some areas, it was not even said in that quote at all... I mean since they're already talking smack about the system's power, why hold back there?
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
crazy monkey
Banned
One and only Pacman.
Pacman Vs. Returns confirmed.
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